March 30, 2006
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Tribunals
The Supreme Court heard arguments on Tuesday about the terrorism suspects that are imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. President Bush wants to have special rules for handling these suspected terrorist because they are not citizens. He wants to be able to have them placed in a prison and tried with little ability to appeal the decisions by a federal judge.
In other words, he wants to limit the rights of these prisoners because they are suspected terrorist. The concern of the President is that by going through the normal procedures, information about American weakness could be made public and exploited by terrorist. The concern of those who oppose this is that there will be no check and balances to protect the rights of the suspected terrorist.
Should the rights of the suspected terrorist be restricted in order to provide safety for American citizens?
Comments (227)
yes, I believe so
Terrorists don’t have rights under the Bill of Rights-
Besides rights of dangerous people are restricted all the time- it’s called prison
Yes. No doubt about it.
yes
ALL animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others
Rights?
As in basic, human rights?
No.
“Rights,” as in what we think of…
Now that all depends on the case.
YES
In Germany they came first for the Communists and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me–and by that time no one was left to speak up.
.. I’m not advocating for terrorists, but for suspected terrorists. This was the same throughout history. With the Japanese, the Germans, the Jews… rights are rights.
ooh cool- 2nd!!!
Let me add this. These people aren’t at Getmo for no reason- They were fighting a war against the US- they are war criminals. they are not being mistreated (unless being forced to eat the same food our troops eat is considered tourture). They have no rights to attorney, nor are they part of a government, The US did not recognize the Taliban as a legitimate governing body. They are reaping the benefits of their zealotus and violent beliefs.
of course!
No, they shouldn’t
Yes. If they are not American citizens why give them the same rights as citizens have?
well achally if they could really prove that they were terrorists and them detaining them could protect the American Public, then yes
UH, DUH…YES!
HEY DAN…I DON’T HAVE IM AT MY NEW JOB, HOW SAD IS THAT???
I MISS TALKING TO YOU!!
DEBBIE
No.
Whoa…I’m going against the grain here…but I say no. They are prisoners of the United States and therefore are subject to our laws. And our laws say that they have a right to an attorney, a speedy trial and are considered innocent until proven guilty.
How can we hold ourselves up as the “golden standard” for democracy and human rights and then have places like Guantanamo?
Besides, if we start to restrict the rights of “suspected terrorists” then were going to need an enforceable definition of “terrorist”…and we don’t have that right now.
LMAO…SHHH!
I think it’s important to keep them held to prevent them from doing anything to the country, as long as they truly are working against us. You can’t just arrest someone and hold them prisoner for looking like someone else. However I think it’s extremely bad for them to be tortured and treated the way some have. American rights can be lax…however basic human rights can NOT.
~t~
Yes…. we’re America so we should protect our citizens. The terrorist should have rights too but not at the expense of safety for the American people. U.S. citizens should come first.
you mentioned “suspect,” so i supposed they’re not full-fledged terrorists yet. i can’t say b/c i really don’t know, but some Americans will start to wonder, “What if they suspect me? Would they give me limited rights as well?” That’s just a thought.
Dang right it should!
Absolutely not. I’d like to see all of these smug people who are saying yes get thrown into a concentration camp and be tortured for the rest of their lives. Then we’ll see how gung ho they are on human rights. Do onto others that which you would never in a million years want done onto yourself. That’s their motto.
You’re not limiting their rights if they have none.
Yes, they should never have more rights than our legal citizens. Sadly though, our country’s justice system gives the criminals more rights than the victims. That is something that needs to be changed. Too many liberal judges giving away the honest citizens rights to the scum of the earth.
IM SO SICK OF THIS. WHY DONT WE JUST RIP OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS AND WIPE OUR ASSES WITH THE CONSTITUION. THEN GO AND THE FACIST BASTARDS CAN GO AND KILL WHO EVER THEY WANT FOR THE SAKE OF SECURITY. OH WAIT DIDNT WE JUST BOMB AND OVERTHROW IRAQ FOR PERSECUTING ITS PEOPLE WITHOUT ANY RIGHTS?
I’ll echo UR_MUSE here. Definately Not. The law is clear and rights should not be suspended because that could lead to greater and greater breaches of rights. I think precaution should be taken about making the trials very public, but they should be given due process under our law. “Innocent until…” and besides, we don’t want our decisions made based on fear, EVER.
No, I don’t think that they should have their rights restricted. They are SUSPECTED terorrists, and American law requires that we approach the legal situation and questions regarding them as if they are INNOCENT until proven GUILTY. I’m so sick of all this “oh my god, they’re terrorists, they’re not citizens, they dont’ have rights”. Well, if they are not our citizens, we have no right to contain them. We’ve never declared war, so how is it that we can hold them captive. If we’re not in a declared war, they can’t be POWs. The U.S. should not be allowed to try them or limit their rights, it’s not up to us, it should be up to the U.N. And is it fair for us to hold them just because they MIGHT do something? Excuse me, but if that’s the way they want the law to work for these people then they need to hold all sex offenders captive in a crappy prision sell in Gitmo just because they MIGHT do something to.
war criminals are war criminals… I’m starting to get to the point of why the US must make special efforts to see to their comfort… screw it, and send ‘em to Texas… I’m sure that if nothing else, the midwest and southern-midwest know how to take care of them a heck of a lot better than politicians back east…
…
What rights can you take away if they have no rights to begin with?…
I fail to see the point in which the US must always, ALWAYS, be the “good” guy, giving special treatment to low-lifes… When our soldiers were in Vietnam, do you think that they had a choice between the chicken or shrimp?… no. This has nothing to do with human rights, essentially, this has to do with a proper restitution of wrongs… These are people who have made it their life goal to inflict terror into the minds and lives of thousands of millions of people… they relinquished their rights quite sometime ago…
RYC: I THINK IT WAS AGREED ACROSS THE BOARD…SPARKLE WAS MY NEW NAME! OOO…HOW EXCITING! LOL
I believe that the rights extended to human beings should be extended to all human beings, but do we have an obligation to treat non-citizens in the same way as citizens. These people deserve fair treatment, but do our laws apply? I know that non-citizens who commit crimes are still subject to the laws that they broke, but where are the lines drawn? And who draws them? I don’t know…
absolutely!!
Someone said this: Let me add this. These people aren’t at Getmo for no reason- They were fighting a war against the US- they are war criminals. They can’t be war criminals if there isn’t declared war, and they weren’t fighting a war necessarily, some of these people may have never blown anything up, so would it be right to take away their rights just because they believe something and have never acted on it just because we are afraid they might do something? they are not being mistreated (unless being forced to eat the same food our troops eat is considered tourture). So the pictures of the sexual humiliation and other pictures of the troops down their torturing them isn’t mistreatment? What is your definition of mistreatment? They have no rights to attorney But serial killers do, rapists do, child molesters do, and these things are just as bad, if not worse than terrorism. Terrorists at least support their actions based on a belief system; serial killers rapists and child molesters just do it because they like it. They do have rights, they are human beings, and they are innocent until proven guilty. You must remember they are only SUSPECTED terrorists , nor are they part of a government, The US did not recognize the Taliban as a legitimate governing body. The U.S. has a bad habit of only seeing what they want to see. Just because we don’t regonize something as legitimate doesn’t mean it’s not legitimate. It has to have some kind of legitimacy because it functioned like a governing body, worked like a governing body, and acted like a governing body. They may not have had a country, but you don’t really have to have a country of your own to rule over people. They are reaping the benefits of their zealotus and violent beliefs. But that is what they believe. You may not like it or agree with it, but put it in perspective. If you were on their side of the fence, you would think that we were evil, and honestly, there is a lot that America has done to back that up. I am not saying that terrorism is right or good, I don’t agree with it, I think they go about solving the issues they have in the completely wrong way. There is, however, something to be said for it… they stand up for their beliefs, they get their points across, they get the attention they want and feel they deserve, and they think that they are as right as we think we are. It’s effective, and it’s what they believe. And instead of terorrising them back, which is what we’re doing, we should have a small amount of respect for them for having the guts to do what they think is right even though we don’t agree with it and think it’s wrong. If everyone in america would stand up for themselves instead of sitting by and thinking they can never make a difference, our country might be a hell of a better place, and everyone might be happier. They at least have the guts to try and make a difference… which is more than I can say for the people I see every day that wine about their life, jobs, relationships and NEVER do anything about it.
yea because what if they werent in prison or wherever they are and somethin did happen? then bush would be in huge trouble.
no. if we’re so paranoid about people harming our country, no one should be given a fair trial or the right to an appeal, because anyone anywhere could just leak this information. It’s just a smoke screen to eliminate the bill of rights.
How would you feel if you were arrested by a foreign country and all your rights (or many of the most vital ones) were stripped away because they suspected you of terrorism? That would piss me off!
We should always love our neighbors as ourselves, even when that means loving our enemies (or suspected enemies). We should do good to them and even bless them when they persecute us.
That’s a tall order, but it’s a pretty basic element of living the life of God’s kingdom (which knows no national borders).
“yea because what if they werent in prison or wherever they are and somethin did happen? then bush would be in huge trouble” you can’t take away anyone’s rights based on a suspision that they MIGHT do something. If the law worked that way then we would need to lock up serial rapists, serial killers, child molesters, and etc that psychologically most likely will commit their crimes again, but we can’t because people are INNOCENT until proven GUILTY, they are free and have rights until they ACTUALLY do something criminal. Ethically, what we’re doing by containing the people in gitmo is wrong. Screw Bush being in trouble or not, it’s not like he can 1) get re-elected or 2) improve his approval ratings.
yes
yes..keep those bad guys away from us
Yes. Emphatically. Terrorists have no rights.
Their not even American citizens, what rights could they possibley have?
Its simple… yes. If they are terrorist they shouldn’t have any rights at all!! Someone said in a previous comment that our laws say innocent till proven guilty and I completely agree, but terrorist already proved they were guilty with 9/11 and other things that have gone on. And most of the time people don’t go by that law they look at them as guilty to begin with I think. Anyway… the terrorist… try them adn send them to the electric chair. I’m never this harsh or this mean but this has got to stop somewhere and we need to defend our country and stop this all from happening! Hope this made sense I’m still a little asleep.
Shielena
All the yesses make me want to cry. These prisoners have not been proven guilty, and worse yet, aren’t allowed lawyers to advocate for them. Plenty of people think of the U.S. as terrorists, with our preemptive “wars” with no name, giving the bounty of other countries to our corporations…
No links between Hussein and Al Queda. But between Hussein and the U.S.? It’s pretty convenient that we forget we set him in power in the first place, more than 30 years ago, and helped him develop those chemical weapons we now denounce. In 1988, when Saddam gassed the Kurds, he was still on our good side, so the american people didn’t even hear about it. It took him going against our will and invading Kuwait to turn him into a “mass murderer”. Wonder why they all hate us so much? Could it be our amazing hypocrisy?
Why do we think that killing people is going to stop terrorism? To my mind, we are only creating more terrorism, and I think that’s works out pretty conveniently for the people in power. Because, if the threat goes away, so does their ability to make money and power off that threat, and their ability to keep the populace agreeing with their policies so that we’ll be “safe”.
Uhh, they are trying to hurt us. They aren’t citizens of our country. Why should we be so politically correct all the damn time that even the people that are trying to hurt us have rights? We’re not going to be safe if we’re so concerned about everyone’s feelings all the time. Other countries might have killed all the suspects to begin with. I tell you, had Bush been the one hiding underground and found by Hussein’s people? He wouldn’t still be around to make a mockery of his trial. There wouldn’t have been a trial. There would have been a funeral. These people are trying to kill us, and we’re worried about their feelings. This nation is going to crumble if it’s run by wimps. This is not about breaches of rights for people like you and me. This is about drawing the line someplace. So, if we were to catch Osama Bidladen, what do you propose to do with him? Bring him in for a trial? Give him a free lawyer and the best interpreter, and free clothes to go to trial in? How about we make sure he’s well fed and that his religious freedoms are given. In fact, why don’t we let him out four times a day to pray to Mecca? He can do it on the White House lawn. Is that enough of a red carpet, do you think?? Wake up!
Your question, “should rights be restricted in order to protect U.S. citizens?” implies that restricting the rights of terrorist *suspects*, not proven terrorists, just suspects, will help protect American citizens. In the meantime, there goes the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the reputation of the U.S. as a gold standard of freedom and democracy. I have news for you: in the rest of the world, America is increasingly being seen as a dictatorship, and this detaining of terrorist suspects without trial is one major reason why.
Um, so a shorter answer would be… no.
what happened to the innocent until proven guilty morality?
suspected terrorists are something diffrent from confirmed terrorists.
Well as I understand what you are stipulating is that our security would indeed be compromised according to GW. The fact is that we don’t really know that.
I think that we already have some laws in place that should the question ever arise, the rights of the government to maintain national security over-rides the rights of the individual during a federal trial. If not, this is a great venue for making new law.
No special considerations for either prosecution or defense. Issues sensitive to national security would have to be disclosed to the trial judge and let him rule on admissibility in light of security issues.
Otherwise, we give GW the power of veto over the judge and defendant.
L,r
We’ev learned our leason from 9/11, so should we take another risk?
couldn’t anyone, then, be called a “suspected terrorist” in order for their rights to be restricted?
bad form.
They should be conferred the same rights as a US citizen for purposes of trial. So should anyone else we decide to try on US soil. They are still human beings even if they are not citizens.
WWJD?
L,r
once I watched Sleeper Cell on Showtime, it has made me rethink my position on this whole issue. I’m so not sure anymore.
yes.
I can see both sides…it’s kind of a gray area. My first impulse is to say yes, but that doesn’t make my first impulse fair or right. They are, after all, people too.
For God’s sake folks – they aren’t terrorists until convicted!
I’m going away now and chill.
L,r
“Should the rights of the suspected terrorist be restricted in order to provide safety for American citizens?”
This is a loaded question. These terrorists have no rights under the US Constitution. They are not US Citizens and were not captured in this jurisdiction.
We should let Allah judge them and arrange such a meeting as swiftly as possible.
since when do rights apply only to americans? what the heck is all this “fight for democracy” about if you’re still going to deny people the rights you enjoy?
Terrorists don’t have rights, so how can you limit them?
The don’t have rights under our constitution, they don’t even have rights according to the U.N. rules of war.
yep.
Innocent until proven guilty here. But on the other side, this is not some legal matter. They are not smuggling products or involved in some gang war. They are suspected of terrorist activities, far worse than simply enemy combatants. We must be respectful of all human life, but we must not treat them as American citizens to do that. We must take measures to ensure safety for more than just ourselves without crossing the line. Not an easy matter that flipant responses can rightly deal with.
you’re suggesting that restricting their right DOES provide safety for americans.
The bill of rights applies only to AMERICAN citizens, not Iraqi or Afgani. So no, no citizenship, no rights.
Their “rights” are not being “limited” because, as individuals who are not citizens of this country and who have organized themselves as terrorists who seek to destroy this country, they do not have the rights that citizens of this country have.
Nor for that matter (IMHO) do they even have the rights of illegal aliens.
These people want to destroy the United States. They want to bring down western civilization. If they were organized into a nation-state, they would have declared war on our nation. But they are not a nation. They are like the Barbary Pirates of years gone by. We have declared war on them in response to their persistent efforts to kill our people, blow up our property, and destroy our nation and our way of life.
When we capture them, they are lucky to be kept alive.
yep
No. Absolutely not.
Yes! I am a proud to live in the USA and I want safety.
Not their basic human rights, but the rights given to American citizens…depending on the case some of those should be restricted as well.
Hm. I think yes. They are not American Citizins and therefore are not covered by the consitution or the bill of rights. However, like DemocraticBean said, they SHOULD have basic human rights.
Innocent until proven guilty….it’s the American Way.
However, we must protect America from these suspects…and they wouldn’t be suspects unless there was some substantial evidence to the contrary.
Just like any other suspected criminal, if the court says that they can go out on bail…then fine, let them run around like any other criminal…however, I don’t believe the courts will…and even if they did the public would know about it…and a few itinerant crazy people would want to know who posted the bail for these suspects….and then there wouldn’t be a court case on these suspects…because they’d be killed somehow…and the people that posted bail for them might end up being dead…somehow….
So go ahead and give them their ‘right to due process’….let’s see how we can expedite it.
(disclaimer….not condoning violence of any type here).
Yes…unless it’s me, of course. Because I know I’m innocent.
That’s the hard part. I think most of us want them to catch and prosecute those who are brandishly hurting/terrorizing others. It’s hard when they are trying to get information about “suspects” though. You hate to see people who are innocent but have suspicous links see their lives turned upside down trying to prove that they are actually innocent.
This is the huge dilemma that our justice system continues to face. Provide protective measures for those who are innocent so they will not to be mistreated … while allowing those who are guilty of crimes to be pursued and brought to justice. For all the times prosecutors, detectives and (in this case) federal agents are right, there are numerous times when they are wrong and people have unjustly accused.
Basically, I support the idea of having more liberty in pursuing legal action against suspected terrorists. I suppose if one has links to other terrorist that he/she may be innocent of acts but have information that will lead to finding the real culprits.
I would divulge all info I had to the authorities if I met someone who I believed was harming others.
In response
1. They can’t be war criminals if there isn’t declared war, and they weren’t fighting a war necessarily, some of these people may have never blown anything up, so would it be right toIn response
1. They can’t be war criminals if there isn’t declared war, and they weren’t fighting a war necessarily, some of these people may have never blown anything up, so would it be right to take away their rights just because they believe something and have never acted on it just because we are afraid they might do something?
-They are an organized group of individuals who have performed coordinated assaults on American troops.
- They have been incarcerated under suspicion, this is not a crime. You are assuming that we are tying to be unfair, that we are in the wrong.
2. So the pictures of the sexual humiliation and other pictures of the troops down their torturing them isn’t mistreatment? What is your definition of mistreatment?
- I don’t agree with this behavior. It was wrong, but it was an isolated incident according to the evidence. We could always cut the heads off of people who disagree with us.
3. But serial killers do, rapists do, child molesters do, and these things are just as bad, if not worse than terrorism. Terrorists at least support their actions based on a belief system; serial killers rapists and child molesters just do it because they like it. They do have rights, they are human beings, and they are innocent until proven guilty. You must remember they are only SUSPECTED terrorists
- These people (Serial killers et. al) are CITIZENS of the US. They are afforded due process because the Constitution applies to them. The Taliban are afforded no such protection.
4. But that is what they believe. You may not like it or agree with it, but put it in perspective. If you were on their side of the fence, you would think that we were evil, and honestly, there is a lot that America has done to back that up. I am not saying that terrorism is right or good, I don’t agree with it, I think they go about solving the issues they have in the completely wrong way. There is, however, something to be said for it… they stand up for their beliefs, they get their points across, they get the attention they want and feel they deserve, and they think that they are as right as we think we are. It’s effective, and it’s what they believe. And instead of terorrising them back, which is what we’re doing, we should have a small amount of respect for them for having the guts to do what they think is right even though we don’t agree with it and think it’s wrong. If everyone in america would stand up for themselves instead of sitting by and thinking they can never make a difference, our country might be a hell of a better place, and everyone might be happier. They at least have the guts to try and make a difference… which is more than I can say for the people I see every day that wine about their life, jobs, relationships and NEVER do anything about it.
- You are confusing perspective with Law. I don’t have to see from their perspective to judge the law, I know what their perspective is…I’ve been in the eastern world. They are fighting a HOLY war- a campaign against whom they perceive is our GOD. Only Allah can rule, kill the infidels where you find them…all cores of belief. They wish us to die, and they are told that if they die in killing us they will reap great rewards. It is violent, it is bloody, it does not afford the tolerance that our politically correct and idiotically idealistic society seems to afford everyone. Reality is that Islam is, at its core, Evil.
That being said we divorce ourselves from this issue and look at it from a perspective of LAW. They are fighting us, we incarcerate them, they are not American citizens, they are performing acts of war, and must be tried. I am not saying that they should be killed because their beliefs conflict with mine (though that’s what they would say.) I am just saying that they are not afforded the protection under the Constitution. The Law does not apply to them
5. The U.S. has a bad habit of only seeing what they want to see. Just because we don’t regonize something as legitimate doesn’t mean it’s not legitimate. It has to have some kind of legitimacy because it functioned like a governing body, worked like a governing body, and acted like a governing body. They may not have had a country, but you don’t really have to have a country of your own to rule over people.
- opinion and law are two separate things. The US has a right to recognize foreign countries, or to not, THAT IS CONSTITUTIONAL.
6. IM SO SICK OF THIS. WHY DONT WE JUST RIP OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS AND WIPE OUR ASSES WITH THE CONSTITUION. THEN GO AND THE FACIST BASTARDS CAN GO AND KILL WHO EVER THEY WANT FOR THE SAKE OF SECURITY. OH WAIT DIDNT WE JUST BOMB AND OVERTHROW IRAQ FOR PERSECUTING ITS PEOPLE WITHOUT ANY RIGHTS?
- The bill of rights does not pertain here- They are not American citizens
- isn’t this the same country who was ordering the death of one of their citizens because he converted to Christianity? What about them respecting Human Rights?
There are rules in the Constitution about POW from LEGITIMATE countries, but the Taliban was nothing like that; Al Queda is a SELF-PROCLAIMED organization bent on destroying the West. It is their Purpose, it is their Mission, and anyone who is affiliated with that IS A TERRORIST.
yes
they have human rights.
So I guess it’s ‘Guilty until proven innocent’ for these folks huh?
Bush is a modern day Dictator!
he should burn in hell
You better believe it!
So I guess it’s ‘Guilty until proven innocent’ for these folks huh?
- You’re not listening. Due process does not apply.
Bush is a modern day Dictator!
he should burn in hell
That is an interesting perspective…Give me examples of dictatorship.
Safety… oh we have no more of this… for we have created in Iraq, a fertile, utopian breeding ground for those who would hate, kill and die to see us suffer… but this was the plan after all, wasn’t it?
These people were combatants. Captured on the field of battle. It is the hight of stupidity to afford these people the rights of citizens. Did we send every German and Japanese soldier captured to a court, a world court? Ridiculous! Try them in a military tribunal and get over yourself.
I’d say yes. We’ve seen what the terrorists can do. Everyone has. But I don’t know…there are so many things going on.
[The concern of the President is that by going through the normal procedures, information about American weakness could be made public and exploited by terrorist.]
I don’t understand how curtailing the trial process would keep sensitive American information safe. If the need is to keep info from the press, they have this thing called a gag rule–regular U.S. courts do it all the time. Please explain if I am missing the boat on the reasoning here.
i would think the minute you have freedom you would see the holes in the system of safety.
You got me on this one. I’d have to learn more about it to give an ‘educated’ opinion.
YES !!! the security of our country should definitely be top priority !!!! Go USA !!!
When it comes to protecting the citizens of this country, do whatever it takes.
RYC: Thank you for your comment; I almost feel like a “bad Christian” because I just can’t bring myself to watch the Passion. I feel like I sort of should but I just can’t. Like I said, maybe one day but until then I think God’s ok with it.
I was inclined to say yes, but not so sure…
Hi Dan,
I don’t agree with Bush limiting their rights. Many people died to give us all that right. Althought they are not American, it’s still the American way to be fair. Bush is getting too jumpy and that’s not good. He is a good presedent, but he needs to be a little more careful to listen to the people.
Dan, I’ve got something on my site that I’d like you to read. Will you check it out?
God bless
John Anthony
I think bush needs to look after the US citizens first
Hope you are ok, I never hear from you now!!
A country that purports to be upholding the right to be free and just on this globe should allow it’s prisoners full rights of appeal. Sometimes the USA and the old USSR don’t seem that far removed.
yes.
The are terrorist so they shouldn’t have any rights at all? Do you all realize that in their eyes WE are the terrorists so WE don’t have any rights? They’ve got a point in thinking that too. We go over there and bomb them all, believing they are wrong, just like they bombed us for believing we’re wrong. They hate them and we hate us, so tell me, seriously, what makes us any better than them? Just because our government is the one sending the bombs? Do you honestly think we haven’t killed any innocent people over there? Do you think that ALL of those people in Gitmo are guilty of terrorists act? Don’t you think holding them in there as an example to other terrorists is actually terrorism? Do you think that all people, regardless of their beliefs have rights? The Declaration of Independence says that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL AND THAT THEY ARE ENDOWED BY THEIR CREATOR WITH CERTAIN UNALIENABLE RIGHTS. ALL MEN are the key words there. You have to remember these are SUSPECTED terrorists, and while, yes, you may hold them for the fact that they are suspected, but you cannot deny them their rights. They have rights, regardless of citizenship, until they are proven guilty of actually doing something. That’s the bottom line. Not all terrorist proved themselves guilty with 9/11. Not all terrorists were part of 9/11, it’s conspiracy and it’s plot, so to use that as a platform for attacking all terrorists everywhere is exactly like what Hilter did to the Jews in Germany. All Jews everywhere were to be persecuted, killed, whipped of the map for their beliefs, and that’s what we’re doing with the terrorist regardless of weather they’ve done anything or not, just because we think that they might do something bad. Let me tell you something… there is always, ALWAYS going to be someone out there who wants to hurt America, to sucker punch it, to hate it so much they would do anything to see her burning. And you know why that is? It’s because of things like this, of us going off hotheaded and half-cocked attacking everyone we think hates America enough to blow it up. And killing these suspected terrorists and treating them the way we have been is only going to create more terrorists who will be even angrier at America… so you all have a false sense of security if you think that detaining these suspects and not giving them any rights is going to make it so you’re not at risk of being blown up on your bus ride to work one day. You’re never going to be able to get rid of them all. There will always be those who want to kill Americans for being the bully nation.
Yes, these people want to destroy the United States and yes, they hate western civilization… but think about it… we want to destroy the terrorists and bring down their civilization… so again, how is that any different and any better?
In response
1. They can’t be war criminals if there isn’t declared war, and they weren’t fighting a war necessarily, some of these people may have never blown anything up, so would it be right toIn response
1. They can’t be war criminals if there isn’t declared war, and they weren’t fighting a war necessarily, some of these people may have never blown anything up, so would it be right to take away their rights just because they believe something and have never acted on it just because we are afraid they might do something?
-They are an organized group of individuals who have performed coordinated assaults on American troops.
Who wouldn’t fight back if someone was attacking them?
- They have been incarcerated under suspicion, this is not a crime. You are assuming that we are tying to be unfair, that we are in the wrong.
Incarcerated under suspicion is not a crime. Not giving them any rights because they are suspected of a crime is unfair and wrong.
2. So the pictures of the sexual humiliation and other pictures of the troops down their torturing them isn’t mistreatment? What is your definition of mistreatment?
- I don’t agree with this behavior. It was wrong, but it was an isolated incident according to the evidence. We could always cut the heads off of people who disagree with us.
But still, that is mistreatment, and could have happened more than once. Regardless, we are treating these people as if they have already committed a crime, which has not been proven. They are only suspected, and so they should be treated a lot better than they are being treated.
3. But serial killers do, rapists do, child molesters do, and these things are just as bad, if not worse than terrorism. Terrorists at least support their actions based on a belief system; serial killers rapists and child molesters just do it because they like it. They do have rights, they are human beings, and they are innocent until proven guilty. You must remember they are only SUSPECTED terrorists
- These people (Serial killers et. al) are CITIZENS of the US. They are afforded due process because the Constitution applies to them. The Taliban are afforded no such protection.
So you’re saying that the rights we preach, free speech, all that, that only applies to Americans.. that doesn’t apply to anyone else in the world? That, to me is wrong, if we are not willing to give them the same legal rights as our cizitens then we should not be allowed to be held and tried by the U.S., they should be handed over to the UN.
4. But that is what they believe. You may not like it or agree with it, but put it in perspective. If you were on their side of the fence, you would think that we were evil, and honestly, there is a lot that America has done to back that up. I am not saying that terrorism is right or good, I don’t agree with it, I think they go about solving the issues they have in the completely wrong way. There is, however, something to be said for it… they stand up for their beliefs, they get their points across, they get the attention they want and feel they deserve, and they think that they are as right as we think we are. It’s effective, and it’s what they believe. And instead of terorrising them back, which is what we’re doing, we should have a small amount of respect for them for having the guts to do what they think is right even though we don’t agree with it and think it’s wrong. If everyone in america would stand up for themselves instead of sitting by and thinking they can never make a difference, our country might be a hell of a better place, and everyone might be happier. They at least have the guts to try and make a difference… which is more than I can say for the people I see every day that wine about their life, jobs, relationships and NEVER do anything about it.
- You are confusing perspective with Law. I don’t have to see from their perspective to judge the law, I know what their perspective is…I’ve been in the eastern world. They are fighting a HOLY war- a campaign against whom they perceive is our GOD. Only Allah can rule, kill the infidels where you find them…all cores of belief. They wish us to die, and they are told that if they die in killing us they will reap great rewards. It is violent, it is bloody, it does not afford the tolerance that our politically correct and idiotically idealistic society seems to afford everyone. Reality is that Islam is, at its core, Evil.
- Islam, as a religion, is not Evil. There are many muslims and devout believers of islam that are not at war with the U.S. This isn’t all about religion. Islam is a religion of peace, and Jihad actually has nothing to do with violent physical gun shooting war. Jihad in Islam is the inner struggle of a person and his relationship with god, right and wrong, good and evil. It is about oneness with the devine and all of humanity. Islam preaches that everyone in the world is family, and if you’d ever studied the religion, you would know that. Terrorists hate AMERICANS, and I have not heard them say that they are attacking of have attacked Americans because they are Christians. Believe it or not Islams and Christians believe in the same God, they just argue over if Mohamed or Jesus were the bringing of God’s truths to the world.
- I am not confusing perspective with the law. Perspective and the law go hand and hand because laws are designed to incorporate the perspective of the situation. You have to include it to make a good judgement.
That being said we divorce ourselves from this issue and look at it from a perspective of LAW. They are fighting us, we incarcerate them, they are not American citizens, they are performing acts of war, and must be tried. I am not saying that they should be killed because their beliefs conflict with mine (though that’s what they would say.) I am just saying that they are not afforded the protection under the Constitution. The Law does not apply to them
The people who are contained fought us when we attacked them… duh. We incarcerated them, SUSPECTING they are terrorists. If we are going to hold them accountable for any crimes under American Law, then they should have the American right to defend themselves. If we are going to hold them captive with the constitution and hold them guilty according to OUR laws then we need to grant them the rights we give other suspects of crimes. That is only fair.
- opinion and law are two separate things. The US has a right to recognize foreign countries, or to not, THAT IS CONSTITUTIONAL.
- I didn’t say it was law. I said that just because they don’t recongnize it as legitimate doesn’t mean it’s not legitimate, and that’s true. It’s just convinant for America that it can pick and choose, and that’s all I meant.
I wish I could destroy the hypocracy and bullying of America. I wish I could destroy the blindness and stupidity and the “it’s all about me” mentality of Americans. Does that make me a terrorist?
Just because someone is a terrorist, does that mean that we get to lock them up and take away their liberty? Their rights? And take them away from their countries? Even if they’ve never done anything? How is that moral and ethical?????
ryc- what surprized you when you posted on co-sleeping? were the responses more in favor or against? (betcha alot of people secretly do it.)
no… you can’t just stick someone in prison and toss their rights to appeal anything, they’re not convicted…..
Terrorists and illegals do not enjoy the liberties and “rights” given to law abiding citizens.
A lot of people say yes, b/c they are not American citizens…I must ask, what would you say if an American citizen was being tried in the very same case…a suspected terrorist from within the country? To some, it wouldn’t matter, I realize. Just was thinking about what I would think if it was the same case, but an American citizen. Not sure where I stand on that. To answer the question of the post, hower, yes, the rights probably should be restricted.
Izly, you’ve got to be kidding? Terrorists forfeit their rights when they become terrorists.
all it takes is a good lawyer, and you can get out of anything. (oj simpson mean anything?). i don’t feel that terrorists should be able to take advantage that you can be guilty as sin, but get away with it through one of the million loopholes. they could plea “insanity” and nobody could object to that, and get away with conspiracy, or whatever the charge may be. we’re too relaxed with our laws.
Is it wrong to take preventative action before something happens? Are motives and intentions no longer consequential? Do only actions make any difference? Are there universal laws and codes that everyone has to abide by? . . I would rather be safe than sorry. Should suspects be limited in certain rights? Yes. Do they still have rights? Yes. But, you forfit some rights when you prevent others from having those same rights.
What rights do terrorists have? The right to face a firing squad is the only one I’m willing to give them.
Izly, you’ve got to be kidding? Terrorists forfeit their rights when they become terrorists
They’re still people, and they still have rights, and if they didn’t DO anything, then they haven’t done anything wrong. Last time I checked it wasn’t wrong or illegal to hate america and wish you could bomb it. As long as they haven’t acted on those feeligns, they shouldn’t be held in America.
And if we are going to hold them under OUR laws, and try them in OUR courts, they should have the same rights as any other suspected criminal, otherwise they need to be given into UN costody and tried in a world court that WILL grant them certain rights.
Is it wrong to take preventative action before something happens? Are motives and intentions no longer consequential? Do only actions make any difference? Are there universal laws and codes that everyone has to abide by? . . I would rather be safe than sorry. Should suspects be limited in certain rights? Yes. Do they still have rights? Yes. But, you forfit some rights when you prevent others from having those same rights.
preventative action is wrong when it infringes upon someone elses life and liberty. Motives and intetions are not consequential is no act was commited. I may get in a fight with my husband and WANT to strangle him, but if I haven’t strangled him, I haven’t commited a crime. Actions do make the difference, see? There are no universal laws and codes that everyone has to abide by because 1) not everyone has the same religon and 2) there is not a world global government. You may rather be safe than sorry, but that does not make it right, ethical, moral or fair. Suspects of crimes should be limited in certain rights, like being allowed to walk free in the world, but they should still have the right to due process and a fair trial, and a lawyer. You forfit the right to be free in society when you are suspected of committing a crime, so it’s right that we detain them, but not right that we will nto give them a lawyer or due process.
RYC: ABOUT YOUR CHILDHOOD…WHY DOES THAT NOT SURPRISE ME DAN? LOL…KIDDING!
GOT A QUESTION FOR YOU OUTSIDE OF XANGA…EMAIL ME WHEN YOU GET A CHANCE.
The are terrorist so they shouldn’t have any rights at all?
-Not under our Constitution
Do you all realize that in their eyes WE are the terrorists so WE don’t have any rights? They’ve got a point in thinking that too. We go over there and bomb them all, believing they are wrong,
-They attacked us first.
just like they bombed us for believing we’re wrong. They hate them and we hate us,
- Just because I think that Islam is evil does not mean I hate them. I actually have a profound respect and love for the people.
so tell me, seriously, what makes us any better than them? Just because our government is the one sending the bombs?
-It’s not about who is better- it is about the Law.
Do you honestly think we haven’t killed any innocent people over there?
-Innocents die in war, it is to be expected.
Do you think that ALL of those people in Gitmo are guilty of terrorists act?
-If they are affiliate with Al Queda- yes.
Don’t you think holding them in there as an example to other terrorists is actually terrorism? Do you think that all people, regardless of their beliefs have rights?
-All beliefs yes…But under our Constitution only Citizens of this country
The Declaration of Independence says that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL AND THAT THEY ARE ENDOWED BY THEIR CREATOR WITH CERTAIN UNALIENABLE RIGHTS.
-Our Country…again
ALL MEN are the key words there. You have to remember these are SUSPECTED terrorists, and while, yes, you may hold them for the fact that they are suspected, but you cannot deny them their rights.
-Rights that don’t exist under our Constitution unless they are Citizens…again
They have rights, regardless of citizenship, until they are proven guilty of actually doing something. That’s the bottom line.
-This is not true, this is not true, THIS is not true…it is YOUR opinion.
Not all terrorist proved themselves guilty with 9/11. Not all terrorists were part of 9/11, it’s conspiracy and it’s plot, so to use that as a platform for attacking all terrorists everywhere is exactly like what Hilter did to the Jews in Germany.
-So if they’re not committing acts of TERRORISM, why are they labeled that. Terrorism is evil, it is a crime and it should be punished.
All Jews everywhere were to be persecuted, killed, whipped of the map for their beliefs, and that’s what we’re doing with the terrorist regardless of weather they’ve done anything or not, just because we think that they might do something bad.
- No its not. are you listening to yourself? TERRORISTS unashamedly, unapologetically and without second thought KILL. We are fighting that regime.
Let me tell you something… there is always, ALWAYS going to be someone out there who wants to hurt America,
-Bring it on
to sucker punch it, to hate it so much they would do anything to see her burning.
-It is because we have freedom
And you know why that is? It’s because of things like this, of us going off hotheaded and half-cocked attacking everyone we think hates America enough to blow it up.
-So slamming planes into buildings; Cutting the heads off of Americans, Germans, Frenchmen, Britains; Sentencing a man to death because he converted to Christianity is not Hot Headed and half-cocked?
And killing these suspected terrorists and treating them the way we have been is only going to create more terrorists who will be even angrier at America…
-We’re not cutting peoples heads off, burning them with acid, killing their families raping their women…
so you all have a false sense of security if you think that detaining these suspects and not giving them any rights is going to make it so you’re not at risk of being blown up on your bus ride to work one day. You’re never going to be able to get rid of them all. There will always be those who want to kill Americans for being the bully nation.
-They’re not attacking us because we’re Bullies…they’re attacking us because we believe in a different God then they. They call us the great white Satan…pretty self explanatory
Yes, these people want to destroy the United States and yes, they hate western civilization… but think about it… we want to destroy the terrorists and bring down their civilization… so again, how is that any different and any better?
-We are not bringing them down because we hate them. We are taking them out because they are conducting war on us.
I didn’t say it was law. I said that just because they don’t recognize it as legitimate doesn’t mean it’s not legitimate, and that’s true. It’s just convinant for America that it can pick and choose, and that’s all I meant.
– It is our right, based in the Constitution. It is what we found our government on.
I wish I could destroy the hypocracy and bullying of America. I wish I could destroy the blindness and stupidity and the “it’s all about me” mentality of Americans. Does that make me a terrorist?
- no, but your argument makes no sense. America is not “bullying.” There is no Hypocrisy- President Bush stated what he was going to do, and he did it. You would become a terrorist if you decided to take up a weapon and stand between other people, and their freedom.
Just because someone is a terrorist, does that mean that we get to lock them up and take away their liberty?
-Yes
Their rights?
- They have no rights under the Constitution
And take them away from their countries?
- They make the choice to participate in acts of War on a Sovereign nation.
Even if they’ve never done anything? How is that moral and ethical?????
- You are solely arguing from emotion here. You have no proof that they have not done anything. They are incarcerated because they are affiliated with a KNOWN terrorist organization.
You are a very impassioned person, but you are arguing from the belief that these people feel exactly like you do. If you were in Afghanistan you would not have the freedom to sit as you are in your picture, you would be required to cover your face, you would not be allowed to speak, you would be married off and IF you displeased your husband, he could kill you- by law.
These people are nothing like you. they do not view human life the way you do. They honor their family and their God by destroying the infidel…it is commanded in their holy books. Do some research, study Islam. See where Mohammad commands his followers to destroy the infidels, thereby gaining favor in the eyes of Allah.
Geez, people go to such extremes here. It’s not like we are going to start putting people in gas chambers and using their skin for lampshades. How could you possibly think there are any similarities between Guantanamo Bay and a German concentration camp?
OMG! Prisons are so bad, they are like concentration camps, we should get rid of them and let criminals roam the streets freely!
You should all know that the authorities use the word “suspect” quite often. The LAPD can have a two hour, high-speed car chase, all of which is covered by cameras in helicopters which never lose sight of the vehicle being chased, and when the LAPD have finally flattened all the tires, rammed the vehicle off the road, and pulled the driver out of the same vehicle and arrested them, the driver is still called a “suspect.” It’s not as if we’re abducting random people because they look suspicious and putting them into the well known concentration camp in Cuba to do secret scientific experiments on them.
I agree with evowookie.
Any time anyone is arrested, their rights are restricted. Yes, even US citizens. Thats what prisons are for.
Basically there are two possibilities for most of these prisoners. They could be terrorists, a distinct possibility being that they were fighting against american troops. However, could anyone here honestly say they wouldn’t take up arms and fight if the U.S were invaded? Say an orgainization based in america (this is hypothetical so use your imaginations) attacks a major european power and we get invaded. Affiliated with the terror group or not many people are going to fight the invaders for the simpel fact that they are invading our country. Terror suspect or not they’re being tried under the U.S legal system and every road of appeal and loop hole should be open to them. Illegal aliens etc get full use of the system an they aren’t citizens. The prisoners in Cuba should be treated no differently. Anyone who wants to restrict and persecute them is a bigot.
…it IS against the law to “plan” or “talk” about bombing America, you may want to check out the law on that.
let’s say you’re hanging out w/ some gal pals, and you all decide to talk about bombing a small town in the USA…if your “innocent talks” of bombing anywhere in our US borders is leaked out, YOU and all your gal pals WILL go to JAIL.
This is the way it’s been LONG before 911.
Yes
izly, I agree w/ the statements left by others, terrorists do NOT enjoy the rights of our constitution. As I said earlier, even if you’re just “talking about bombing” anywhere in the USA, you will go to jail, it’s been that way for a very long time.
let’s say you’re hanging out w/ some gal pals, and you all decide to talk about bombing a small town in the USA…if your “innocent talks” of bombing anywhere in our US borders is leaked out, YOU and all your gal pals WILL go to JAIL.
This is the way it’s been LONG before 911.
- True, a guy just got 30 years in prison because he came up with a plan to assasinate the President…it is a serious federal crime
It is a federal crime to conspire to commit any activity prohibited by federal statute, whether or not Congress imposed criminal sanctions on the activity itself.
No~!
These are not US citizens, so they can claim none of the rights belonging to citizens, promised by our Constitution.
They are not POWs. They are not prisoners of war: to be a prisoner of war you must serve in the military of a legitimate country.
These terrorists or insurgents have the legal status of PIRATES. They are beneath common criminals. They lack the rights of US citizens or foreign POWs.
The US Constitution and Bill of Rights protect US citizens, not pirates or foreign terrorists.
On bill Clinton’s watch, the government went after a group of people in WACO TX for having massive gun power. – Though it’s not against the law to bear arms, the government felt this particular group of people were a threat, so they tried to confiscate their guns…as a result the ended up killing the ppl in WACO TX and then Timothy McVeigh in return, bombed the Federal Bldg in Oklahoma.
No.. because our country likes to be the bigger person.. at time anyway, we seem to rather not sink to the level things such as that..
the trial should be secluded, not made public.. and only the outcome to be told.. the rest should be only within private governments officals and a secluded jury so that leaks wont be a problem
You have no proof that they have not done anything.
and you have no proof that they have. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be locked up, because they are suspected so should be held, just like any other suspected criminal. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t give them a lawyer though.
You are a very impassioned person, but you are arguing from the belief that these people feel exactly like you do.
no I’m not. These people don’t feel like I do. If these people felt like I did they would’t feel that they had to kill people to get their point across. My point is that these people should have the right to due process and the right to a lawyer
If you were in Afghanistan you would not have the freedom to sit as you are in your picture, you would be required to cover your face, you would not be allowed to speak, you would be married off and IF you displeased your husband, he could kill you- by law.
And if I had grown up in that lifestyle maybe I wouldn’t mind that. It bothers me that they treat women that way, but I turn the other cheek to it because that is their lifestyle, those are their customs, that is how they choose to live. But what is your point in bringing that up? Do you think that just because that is how they treat their women we should go over there and liberate them?
These people are nothing like you. they do not view human life the way you do. They honor their family and their God by destroying the infidel…it is commanded in their holy books. Do some research, study Islam. See where Mohammad commands his followers to destroy the infidels, thereby gaining favor in the eyes of Allah. I know these people are nothing like me. I know they do not view human life the way that I do. I know that they honor their family and their God by destroying the infidel, such is their INTERPRETATION of the holy book. I have studied Islam and read the Qu’ran and I know that it is a very peaceful religion. It is the interpretation of some of Mohammad’s sayings that are the centerpieces of the terrorists belief. That is why they are called islamic exteremists. Christian’s do the bible the same injustice. But still, we should give these people a lawyer and due process.
though personally without the politically correctness, if it were quite obvious what they did, i’d cut their head off on camera and send it to their wife.. since that seems to be a trend for some of the terrorists
…it IS against the law to “plan” or “talk” about bombing America, you may want to check out the law on that.
let’s say you’re hanging out w/ some gal pals, and you all decide to talk about bombing a small town in the USA…if your “innocent talks” of bombing anywhere in our US borders is leaked out, YOU and all your gal pals WILL go to JAIL.
This is the way it’s been LONG before 911.
I didn’t say “plan” or “talk” about, I said “WANT” to bomb America. If you don’t say it out loud or plan it out then it’s not a crime. If you only think in your head, “God I wish I could blow something up they are so stupid” not a crime, just a passionate remark.
Things like this should be dealt on a case to case basis.
I seriously don’t think those detainees are there for “thinking” about bombing America.
thank you for your respectful way of communicating, I appreciate your kindness.
I agree to disagree with you.
And if I had grown up in that lifestyle maybe I wouldn’t mind that. It bothers me that they treat women that way, but I turn the other cheek to it because that is their lifestyle, those are their customs, that is how they choose to live. But what is your point in bringing that up? Do you think that just because that is how they treat their women we should go over there and liberate them?
- IF this is the case, then why are women running to the schools to get educated? Why is it that droves of people in Iraq turn out to vote–far greater ratios than we had in our country…and people weren’t bombing the balot boxes.
such is their INTERPRETATION of the holy book. I have studied Islam and read the Qu’ran and I know that it is a very peaceful religion. It is the interpretation of some of Mohammad’s sayings that are the centerpieces of the terrorists belief. That is why they are called islamic exteremists. Christian’s do the bible the same injustice. But still, we should give these people a lawyer and due process.
- is is not peaceful at all. It is a religion that requires complete intolerance. If it is peaceful then why do they kill converts to Christianity? if it is peaceful why do they have suicide bombers? if it is peaceful, why do they kill people over cartoons. The Qu’ran is a book about vengance, about hate, and about weighing the scales…They would not appriciate your tolerance, or your candor, and have beaten you or killed you for the blasphemy
wow, I’m amazed at how so many so-called americans can even admit that certain people that are facing trial can be exempt from the constitution. this is ludicrous.
I seriously don’t think those detainees are there for “thinking” about bombing America.
thank you for your respectful way of communicating, I appreciate your kindness.
I agree to disagree with you.
I agree they aren’t there for just “thinking” about it… but isn’t it unfair to try them against our laws without giving them the right to a lawyer and a trial? They will probably most likely all be found guilty, but they should at least get the chance to defend themselves against our laws (in a private no media allowed trial). What do you think should happen to them if they are found guilty? are you for killing them? or for jail until they die? I think jail because killing them would make them martyrs and all too happy… and I’m opposed to the eye for an eye concept of the death penalty anyways.
“The Qu’ran is a book about vengance, about hate, and about weighing the scales…They would not appriciate your tolerance, or your candor, and have beaten you or killed you for the blasphemy”
The same same could be interpretted from the Bible.. with damnation, homosexual prosecution, there are wrathful instances in EVERY holy book no matter which you choose to believe.. and even if the people choose to interpret it in a vengeful way I wouldn’t so far as to classify their Holy Word in a way such as that.. everyone has their own way about their religion but the same could be said of any Holy book
wow, I’m amazed at how so many so-called americans can even admit that certain people that are facing trial can be exempt from the constitution. this is ludicrous.
Posted 3/30/2006 at 1:39 PM by ThemFromSpace
Again- The document only protects the rights of Americans. It was said earlier that terrorists are analagous to Pirates…it is very true. Read what your Constitution says sometime.
- IF this is the case, then why are women running to the schools to get educated? Why is it that droves of people in Iraq turn out to vote–far greater ratios than we had in our country…and people weren’t bombing the balot boxes.
I’m not saying that they don’t like it, I just don’t think that it was ever any of our business.
- is is not peaceful at all. It is a religion that requires complete intolerance. If it is peaceful then why do they kill converts to Christianity? if it is peaceful why do they have suicide bombers? if it is peaceful, why do they kill people over cartoons. The Qu’ran is a book about vengance, about hate, and about weighing the scales…They would not appriciate your tolerance, or your candor, and have beaten you or killed you for the blasphemy
you are wrong yet again. Islam, in it’s pure form, requires complete TOLERANCE. Not all Islam people kill converts to Christianity, not all Islams believe in that. Not all islams believe in suicide bombers. Not all islams kill people over Cartoons. The Qu’ran is not about vengances, it is about love, peace, and oneness with God. I know several muslims that feel that way, and if it was soooooo horrible as you are saying, I doubt it would be the fastest growing religion in the world.
also there’s a reason they are called EXTREMISTS
not every islamic person is like that
I think they should have the same legal rights as everyone else.
The document only protects the rights of Americans. It was said earlier that terrorists are analagous to Pirates…it is very true. Read what your Constitution says sometime
but we allow illegals the rights to a lawyer and due process when they commit crimes even though they are not U.S. citizens. Why are we going to be hypocritical and say that since these terrorists are not citizins we’re not going to give them a lawyer and due process… that’s against the policy we’ve already made (in practice) for non citizens.
also there’s a reason they are called EXTREMISTS
not every islamic person is like that
Exactly
“but we allow illegals the rights to a lawyer and due process when they commit crimes even though they are not U.S. citizens. Why are we going to be hypocritical and say that since these terrorists are not citizins we’re not going to give them a lawyer and due process… that’s against the policy we’ve already made (in practice) for non citizens”
I agree, as I said earlier the US likes to attempt to take the high road.. there are many thing we could decide not to do, but instead of being cruel and tortureous we seem to embrace the idea of every person deserves human and fair treatment.. regardless of what they have or have not done
*things
*humane
I hate typos, but I love friendly debate
you are wrong yet again. Islam, in it’s pure form, requires complete TOLERANCE. Not all Islam people kill converts to Christianity, not all Islams believe in that. Not all islams believe in suicide bombers. Not all islams kill people over Cartoons. The Qu’ran is not about vengances, it is about love, peace, and oneness with God. I know several muslims that feel that way, and if it was soooooo horrible as you are saying, I doubt it would be the fastest growing religion in the world.
- Long rebuttal- with notes. I didn’t write this, but it is accurate
AL-QAEDA’S INTELLECTUAL LEGACY:
NEW RADICAL ISLAMIC THINKING
JUSTIFYING THE GENOCIDE OF INFIDELS
Jonathan D. Halevi
<LI>
The Islamic victory over the USSR in Afghanistan, the creation of the al-Qaeda global network, and the spread of Islam in many Western countries are seen as signs of an Islamic awakening that from the radical Islamist perspective may lead to the restoration of Islam as the world’s most dominant power.
<LI>
In this emerging world order, Christians and Jews are no longer protected minorities under Islam. As a result, there is a dangerous trend among militant Islamist clerical authorities, especially from Saudi Arabia, justifying not only acts of terrorism against individuals, but also mass murder against whole groups of people regarded as infidels. Their call for the complete extermination of peoples means they have moved ideologically toward the justification of genocide.
<LI>
Jihad against America is the realization of “the right of self-defense” in retaliation for the terrorist war waged by the United States against the nation of Islam. Based on the Islamic principle, one al-Qaeda leader argues that Muslims have the right to kill four million Americans, while a Saudi scholar argues for killing ten million.
<LI>
The citizens in democratic Western countries become full participants in governmental decision-making by voting in elections and therefore they are no longer considered “non-combatants.” Democracy is a prohibited innovation that contradicts Islamic values and embodies a new heretical religion.
<LI>
An official al-Qaeda publication presents a new, comprehensive concept of total extermination of Islam’s enemies. Al-Qaeda’s Saudi clerics are also having a growing influence on other militant groups, from Hamas to Chechen groups to the mujahideen in western Iraq: their legal rulings appear on the websites of these organizations in Arabic.
<LI>
There has only been a partial moderation of these trends as a byproduct of Saudi Arabia’s internal struggle with al-Qaeda since May 12, 2003; some clerics have called for discontinuing the practice of takfir – branding Muslims as infidels worthy of destruction. But they have not altered their harsh doctrine against Christians and Jews.
Seeing the West as “God’s Enemy”
Global terrorism sprouted and thrived in the strongholds of radical Islam. Islamic scholar Bernard Lewis, in “The Roots of Muslim Rage,”1 explains the rise of Islamic radicalism and the increasing hatred of the West as a response to Western superiority and to the undermining of Islam’s authority by Western culture. The Islamic hatred is, according to Lewis, an outcome of the collision between the Western and Islamic civilizations and “an Islamic historical response to secularism and the Jewish-Christian heritage.” Lewis’ approach provides an essential interpretation of the roots of the current clash of civilizations, but it lacks a reference to the implications of the accumulating hatred for the West, which is viewed by many Muslims as “God’s enemy.”
The present-day radical Islamic outburst against Western civilization’s hegemony emanates from a perception of achievement: the Islamic victory over the USSR in Afghanistan, the establishment of Taliban rule, the creation of the al-Qaeda global network, and the spread of Islam in many Western countries. These are seen as signs of an Islamic awakening that may lead in the twenty-first century to the restoration of the glory of Islam as the world’s most dominant power.
In this context, the radical Islamic struggle against “God’s enemies” has brought about a significant change in traditional Islamic attitudes toward the protected religions – Christianity and Judaism. During the golden age of Islam, in most cases Islamic regimes treated Christians and Jews with tolerance for being monotheists like themselves. They were considered ahl al-dhimma, non-Muslim monotheistic believers who had the privilege to be under the protection of Islamic rule, although some humiliating laws were imposed on them (payment of a head tax; synagogues and churches had to be built lower than mosques, etc.). The destiny of infidels and polytheists (those who attribute associates to God) under Islamic rule, however, was either conversion to Islam or execution.
The End of Protected Status for Christians and Jews
In recent years, radical Islamic scholars have renounced the privileges that Christians and Jews had enjoyed under Islamic rule and denied their status as ahl al-dhimma, accusing them of crimes against Islam and deviation of faith in God by attributing associates to God. This opened the way to justifying mass killing of Christians and Jews under the flag of jihad for the sake of Allah.
The roots of radical Islam’s denial of protected status for Christians may be found in the long-standing, accumulated hatred of the U.S. and other Western countries as leaders of the Christian world. The U.S. is viewed as a global infidel force menacing Islam with its ideology, social and economic values, and hostile policy, seen in terms of a modern Crusader war against Islam. Abd al-Aziz al-Jarbou’, a prominent radical Saudi scholar, lashed out at the U.S. in his book The Foundations of the Legality of the Destruction That Befell America, presenting a thesis that was publicly lauded by many Saudi scholars, headed by Hamud bin Uqla al-Shuaibi and Ali al-Khudeir. Describing the U.S. as “the source of evil, moral corruption, oppression, despotism, and aggression,” al-Jarbou’ explained that the U.S. “spreads abomination and corruption in the world,” “is the biggest source heretical movies,” “has more sex channels and wine and cigarette companies than any other country,” “wages war against Allah’s religion…and strives to impose its heresy and values out of arrogance and a desire to dominate.” “Even Satan does not behave like America does,” he wrote.2
On May 6, 2002, fourteen Saudi scholars published a special announcement claiming that the escalation in tensions between Islam and the West stemmed from American and European foreign and economic policies reflected in their siding with Israel, supporting globalization, and waging war on global terrorism. They asserted that, “observing this conflict…between Islam and the Muslims who follow righteousness, on one side, and heresy and its forces, on the other side, will expose the identity of the enemy and its flag [ideology], which developed after the rise of what is called the new world order, the Madrid and Oslo conventions, other conventions held in America and Sharm Al-Sheik [Egypt], and the criminal war against Muslims called the war on terror. Thus, the genuine hatred and the nature of this conflict between the camp of Islam and the camp of ahl al-dhimma – the Jews and Christian Crusaders, and the hypocrites who follow them [Arab leaders] – becomes clear.”3
The confrontation between Islam and the West is considered a zero-sum game, the outcome of which is to be the absolute and total victory of Islam in the twenty-first century. In his public message to the Muslim world on the occasion of the holiday of Eid al-Adha (February 19, 2002), Hamas leader Ahmad Yassin clearly justified the jihad against the U.S. in Muslim and Arab countries on the basis of Islamic law. Jihad against America is a positive commandment in every respect and is the realization of “the right of self-defense” against “the Crusaders’ war” and the terrorist war waged by the United States against the nation of Islam in Afghanistan and against the Islamic jihad movements in the world. Yassin emphasized that jihad has a defined goal, which is to “bring Islam to a dominant global position and release it from the hegemony of America and its Zionist allies.” He encouraged Muslims to perform jihad and to prepare for an extended battle against the U.S., promising that the current century, the twenty-first, is the “Islamic century, the century of liberation, victory, and the fulfillment of potential.”4
The Future Conquest of Rome and All of Europe
Similarly, the prominent Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, the Qatari-based spiritual authority for the worldwide Muslim Brotherhood, issued an Islamic ruling that, despite the pessimism among Muslims, Islam will definitely prevail and eventually become master of the entire world.5 One of the signs of Islamic victory will be the conquest of the Italian capital, Rome, by the Muslims. Occupying Europe and defeating Christianity will become possible, according to al- Qaradawi, with the spread of Islam inside Europe until it becomes strong enough to take over the whole continent. Al-Qaradawi asserts that “the signs of salvation are absolute, numerous, and as plain as day, indicating that the future belongs to Islam and that Allah’s religion will defeat all other religions.” He relies on ancient Islamic traditions quoting the Prophet Muhammad, who allegedly argued that the conquest of Constantinople (Istanbul) and then Romia (Rome) are considered signs of the victory of Islam. Al-Qaradawi wrote:
And Romia is the city we name Rome, the capital of Italy. The city of Herqel [Constantinople] was conquered in 1453 by the young Ottoman, aged 23, Muhammad Ibn Mourad, known by his nickname Muhammad the Conqueror. Nowadays, the conquest of the other city Romia [Rome] remains unfulfilled. Namely, Islam will return once more to Europe as a conqueror and as a victorious power after it was expelled twice from the continent….I assume that next time the conquest [of Europe] will not be achieved by the sword [i.e., war] but by preaching (daawa) and spreading the ideology [of Islam]….The conquest of Romia [Rome] and the expansion of Islam will reach all the areas where the sun shines and the moon appears [i.e., the entire world]….That will be the result of a planted seed and the beginning of the righteous Caliphate’s return….[The Islamic Caliphate] deserves to lead the nation to the plains of victory.6
Al-Qaradawi’s influence, it should be stressed, is widespread. His religious rulings not only appear on the websites of Muslim Brotherhood subsidiaries, like Hamas, but also on the websites of Saudi-inspired groups fighting the U.S. in western Iraq and on the websites of Chechen Islamists.
The State of Confrontation with the West
The state of confrontation with the West is considered by radical Muslim scholars not as something predestined from God, which Muslims have to endure until salvation, but as an opportunity to promote Islamic awareness and to release themselves from Western dominance and values. The first step to be taken from a religious perspective is to define the United States, the leader of the free world, as an “enemy” that is waging a “religious war” against Islam, and on this basis to issue Islamic rulings that the U.S. and its allies belong to dar al-harb (the realm of war). The command of jihad applies not only to Muslims on the confrontation lines in the Muslim and Arab worlds, but to all Muslims living in the areas of the enemy as well. Al-Jarbou’ has ruled that the current state of relations between Islam and the West is to be expressed as one of total war against the infidels. America, according his viewpoint, is not a regime with which Islam can maintain normal relations until Islam becomes strong enough to launch a jihad against it. Nor is it a regime that deserves the tolerant and peaceful attitude from Islam accorded to Christians and Jews as protected minorities under Islamic rule (ahl al-dhimma). Criticizing other Muslim scholars who “neglected their duty” to define the state of relations with America as one of all-out war, al-Jarbou’ unequivocally ruled that the definition of the U.S. as dar al-harb obliges all Muslims to prepare in practice for the war against the infidels.7
Another Saudi scholar, Salman bin Fahed al-’Auda, in his book The End of History, asserts that the solution to Islamic distress – that may bring about the fall of America and the Western world – “exists in one word which is Jihad” (emphasis in original). According to al-’Auda, the meaning of jihad is much broader than fighting with a sword (the Islamic symbol of jihad). Appealing to Muslims throughout the world, he wrote: “We should not simplify this issue and narrow its meaning to a restricted military battle in one of the Islamic regions or even to an all-out war against the West, which is possible and predicted and we assume is arriving [emphasis added].” He continues: “Life as a whole is a battlefield. The weapons are not only the rifle, the bullet, the airplane, the tank, and the cannon. Not at all! Thinking is a weapon, the economy is a weapon, money is a weapon, water is a weapon, planning is a weapon, unity is a weapon, and so there are many types of weapons.”8 In The End of History, al-’Auda concluded that the West by itself was already in an advanced state of decay: “The West, and above all the United States, and Western culture, in general are undergoing a historical process that is deterministic. This process leads to its total collapse, sooner or later.” His jihad was intended to accelerate that collapse. During the 1990s, he was regarded as the most influential preacher in Saudi Arabia.9
Civilians in Infidel States Deserve to Die
Islamic law concerning the state of war between Islam and the West also requires Islamic scholars to deal with issues regarding the laws of war and the definition of “combatants” and “non-combatants.” The innovation observed in Islamic religious rulings issued by radical Muslim scholars in recent years refers to a broadening of the definition of “combatants” who deserve death in jihad to all residents living in infidel states. The laws of war are considered to apply to all civilians and they are perceived in the same way as soldiers fighting on the battlefield. Such a position cancels the right of Jews and Christians to receive protection under Islam and from a religious perspective turns all Western civilians into “combatants.” It relies on various religious arguments: Imitating the way of life and behavior of the Prophet Muhammad in his policy toward ahl al-dhimma, reacting on the basis of retaliation, and excluding Jews and Christians from the definition of monotheism and re-defining them as polytheists.
On June 28, 2002, 28 scholars from the Al-Azhar Institute in Egypt determined that killing large numbers of Israeli civilians in Palestinian suicide bombing attacks was the “noblest act of jihad.” They justified killing Jews by arguing that Israel is a racist, military state that took Muslim land illegally by force. Muslims have, therefore, the right under Islamic law to rise up in jihad against the occupation in order to liberate their lands. The Al-Azhar scholars argued that in conducting jihad there is no need to make any distinction between soldiers and civilians. The correct distinction has to be made between peace-seekers (Muslims) and warmongers (Jews), and between the attackers (Jews) and the attacked (Muslims). Following this religious outlook, the Jews are robbers of Islamic land who contaminate the sacred sites of Islam and, therefore, they have been defined as “combatants, no matter what kind of clothes they wear.”10
In April 2002, Sheikh Hamed al-Ali, a lecturer on Islamic culture in Kuwait and one of the leaders of the radical Salafi stream,11 clarified in a religious ruling the circumstances in which it is permitted to kill civilians in the cause of jihad without violating the Prophet Muhammad’s command prohibiting the murder of women and children. These include:
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Participation in war – For civilians “who knowingly take part in combat or advise and encourage others to do so, etc., the prohibition against killing them does not apply and it is permitted to kill them in war….It should be noted that an army involved in modern warfare also includes soldiers who are non-combatants, some of whom serve in combat support roles and without whom conducting a war would not be possible. For example there are those who operate computers which manage military activities; military personnel involved in strategic planning; reserve forces who supervise mobilization of soldiers and prepare them for battle, if only on an administrative level; intelligence personnel, etc. All are included in the fate of those who encourage war against Muslims, and it is permitted to intentionally kill them in battle.” According to al-Ali, all citizens of Israel are to be considered combatants because of Israel’s compulsory military service law, which includes women, in addition to the fact that its general population is party to government policy due to the taxes it pays and its participation in elections.
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Collateral damage to civilians during attacks on military targets – “When Muslims are forced to launch an all-out attack on enemies or bomb them from a distance and this may cause the death of women, children, and other civilians, it is imperative to ensure that they are not killed intentionally. However, if they are killed during such attacks, killing them does not constitute a sin.”12
In a similar vein, Sheikh Suliman bin Nasser al-Ulwan, a Saudi scholar, issued a ruling on May 18, 2001, which defined the suicide attacks against the “exploitive Jews” in “Palestine” and against the “aggressive Christians” in Chechnya as “acts of self-sacrifice according to the way of Allah,” and are therefore legitimate means of warfare from a religious perspective.” He is cited in a December 2001, al-Qaeda videotape when a visiting Saudi tells Osama bin Laden that he is bringing “a beautiful fatwa” from al-Ulwan.
Sheikh al-Ulwan argued that it is not prohibited to kill children as a consequence of suicide actions if the perpetrator of such an action had no premeditative intent to kill them. Nevertheless, al-Ulwan includes “all the Jews in Palestine” in his definition of “combatants,” adding that, “If jihad fighters are not able to kill combatants [only] without [also] killing children [who are with them], there is no problem in such cases if they [the children] are killed.” In this context, al-Ulwan provides religious legitimacy for blowing up buildings “on the Jews’ heads” indiscriminately and permitting the murder of Jewish women, who serve in the military and take part in the “aggression” by the very fact of being part of the “plundering” of Muslim lands, and because of their “moral corruption.”13 His impact has reached beyond the borders of Saudi Arabia. For example, al-Ulwan’s writings have been found in schools belonging to Hamas in the Gaza Strip. Thus, one of the major al-Qaeda spiritual leaders has been influencing the development of religious and political thinking of the Palestinians as well.
A more decisive approach to ordering the indiscriminate killing of Jews is presented by the learned Saudi cleric Muhammad Saleh al-Munajjid in a fatwa issued in April 2003: “The Jews distorted the religion of Allah…murdered the prophets and denied the existence of Allah; they are intriguers, frauds, and traitors…bringing corruption to Muslim communities…set fire to the Al-Aqsa Mosque…desecrated the Quran…committed massacres; so how is it possible for Muslims not to rejoice at murdering the infidel, thieving Jews? Moreover, Allah will satisfy his believers by destroying and exterminating them all. This is our right as Muslims as was promised by our Prophet….Allah will bring us to defeat and master them according to the Islamic tradition: Fight the Jews and defeat them until the rock says: ‘O Muslim, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!’”14
All those involved in fighting Muslims, both Christians and Jews, are regarded as “combatants” in Muslim eyes. However, a particularly negative status is reserved for Jews, who are regarded as the source of all evil not only in the context of the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict but due to their “inherent characteristics” and the “danger they embody to mankind.” In a statement issued in December 2002 to “enlighten young Muslims,” the Hamas movement describes Jews in wholly anti-Semitic terms in a way that divests them of any vestige of humanity. Jews are described as a nation of “despicable lowlifes,” “traitors,” and “liars” who are “arrogant,” “corrupt,” and “cursed,” who include other gods in their beliefs and distort the Holy Scriptures.” The Jews are accused of attempting to murder the prophet Muhammad, of seditiously creating the religious conflict that resulted in the split between the Shia and the Sunni, of the murder of Ali (founder of the Shia), and of supporting the collapse of the Ottoman Caliphate. The document ends with an appeal to Muslim youth warning that “the Jews control the centers of power in the world,” “spread lechery and abomination,” “are behind all current and past wars,” and are responsible for “almost all corruption and perversion that occurs in the Muslim world.”15
A similar description of the characteristics of the Jewish nation can be found in a sermon given by the imam of the central mosque in Mecca, Sheikh Abd al-Rahman al-Sudays, in May 2002, describing the Jews as “infidels,” “calf-worshippers,” “prophet-murderers,” who even “tried to kill the prophet Muhammad,” “distorters of prophecies,” the “scum of humanity,” “corrupt,” ‘treacherous,” and “conniving.” He prayed to God saying: “I wish the enemies of Islam and Muslims, the Jews, the pagans and other corrupted people, will be humiliated….Allah, exercise your power against the Jews. Allah, destroy them with sharpened tools and take them out of Al-Aqsa Mosque.”16
One of al-Qaeda’s leaders, identified by his nickname, Abu Ayman al-Hilali, in an article published in the periodical Al-Ansar, defined the U.S., Britain, France, Italy, Canada, Germany, and Australia as “enemies,” while praising the mass-murder attacks committed by al-Qaeda operatives in the U.S., Tunisia, Yemen, Bali, Moscow, and elsewhere. He justified killing Western civilians in these attacks for the following reasons:
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The citizens in democratic Western countries become full participants in governmental decision-making by voting in elections and therefore they are no longer considered “non-combatants” as in past wars.
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The citizens in Western countries are full participants in the war their governments are waging against Islam. Their designation by al-Qaeda as “targets” was a reaction to the aggressive policies of their governments. Al-Hilali asserted that even those in the West who oppose their governments’ policies have no immunity from al-Qaeda’s jihad since they are a small minority without real influence and cannot be distinguished during the commission of attacks.17
Democracy: The Religion of the Infidels
Abu Muhammad al-Maqdisi, leader of the Bayat al-Imam extremist group whose operatives were arrested in Jordan in 1995, takes a further step in his book Democracy is a Religion in denying the traditional protection given by Islam to Jews and Christians. They become “combatants” and infidels and lose their status of ahl al-dhimma not only because of their participation in elections, but as a result of their endorsement of democracy and its values. For al-Maqdisi, democracy is a prohibited innovation that contradicts Islamic values and embodies a new heretical religion. Its followers are “infidels” and “polytheists,” even if they consider themselves as Jews or Christians by religion. Al-Maqdisi based his claim on the following arguments:
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“Democracy gives legitimacy to the legislation of the masses or to the despotic regime. It is not [the expression of] the rule of Allah….Allah ordered his Prophet to execute the commands given to him and forbade him to follow the emotions of the nation, the masses, and the people.”
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“Democracy is the rule of the masses or the rule of paganism, which is conducted according to a constitution [written by humans] and not according Allah’s laws….It [democracy] has become the mother of laws and is considered [by the masses] as a holy book. The religion of democracy has no relation to Quranic verses or the Prophet’s way of life and it is not possible to legislate according to them unless they are compatible with the holy book [the constitution].”
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“Democracy is an outcome of despicable secularism and its illegitimate daughter, since secularism is a heretical school striving to separate religion from state and government.”
Al-Maqdisi concludes: “Democracy is a religion that is not Allah’s religion….It is the rule of paganism…it is a religion which includes other gods in its belief…the people represented in the religion of democracy by its delegates in the parliament…who are actually standing idols and false gods placed in their chapels and their pagan fortresses, namely, their legislative councils. They and their followers rule according to the religion of democracy and the constitution’s laws upon which the government is based, and according to the paragraphs of their legislation….Their master is their God, their big idols who approve or reject legislation. He is their emir, their king, or their president.”18
Debating Islamic Retaliation: 4 Million or 10 Million American Deaths?
As noted, radical Islamic scholars rely in their rulings on the principle of retaliation while justifying indiscriminate mass murder of Christians. Suliman Abu Ghaith, a prominent al-Qaeda leader, in his famous series of public letters entitled Under the Shade of the Lances and directed at Muslim youth, listed the crimes of the U.S. against the Arab and Muslim world. He argued that the U.S. is responsible directly and indirectly, in its long-lasting war on Islam, for the death of four million Muslims, including 1.2 million Iraqis, 260,000 Palestinians (as a result of its support for Israel), 12,000 Afghans and Arab fighters, 13,000 Somalis, and millions more throughout the world. From his perspective, al-Qaeda’s attacks in Washington and New York in September 2001 are not enough to balance the equation of killing. Basing his claims on the Islamic principle of retaliation, Abu Ghaith argues that Muslims have the right to kill four million Americans, including one million children, to displace eight million Americans, and to cripple hundreds of thousands more. Moreover, Abu Ghaith asserts that Muslims are religiously entitled to use chemical and biological weapons in their war against the U.S.19
Nasser bin Hamed al-Fahd, another prominent Saudi Salafi scholar, in an Islamic ruling published in May 2003, approved the use of weapons of mass destruction against America. He also based his indictment on the principle of retaliation, but argued that Muslims have the right to kill ten million Americans in response to the crimes of their government against the Muslim nation. Al-Fahd elaborated the circumstances under which it is religiously permitted to kill non-combatant Americans: During a military operation when it is hard to distinguish between soldiers and civilians and according to military needs or considerations. Ascribing great importance to the military considerations, he asserted that the military leaders who are responsible for the execution of jihad have the authority to make the decisions concerning what types of weapons to use against the infidels. If they decided to use weapons of mass destruction based on military need, it would be an obligation under Islamic law.20
Similarly, radical Muslim scholars have justified the killing of 2,750 civilians in al-Qaeda’s September 2001 attacks. A senior al-Qaeda operative named Saif al-Din al-Ansari argued in his book The September 11th Attack that the killing of thousands of civilians in the suicide attacks did not go beyond the “special circumstances” in which Muslims are religiously permitted to kill infidel civilians. These attacks were justified because they were conducted according to the principle of retaliation as well as the Islamic religious principle that permits the killing of civilians when necessary in order to destroy the enemy’s fortresses, when it is impossible to differentiate between military and civilians.21 Support for this position has also been expressed by Saudi Islamic scholars Hamud bin Uqla al-Shuaibi and Ali al-Khudeir.
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Hamud bin Uqla al-Shuaibi referred to the September attacks in his Islamic ruling as follows: “Any decisions taken by the American infidel state, particularly those dealing with war and other critical decisions, are taken based upon public opinion surveys or representatives’ voting in their infidel legislatures. These legislatures represent primarily the people’s opinion….Therefore, any American citizen who voted for the war is considered a combatant or at least an accessory [to the war].”22
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The Saudi Sheikh Ali al-Khudier wrote in another Islamic ruling: “We should not regret the deaths of civilians in the Twin Towers attack since the American is an infidel because of his connection to his government. He fights for it, supports it with money, opinions or advice, and this is the type of their political regime. Therefore, they deserved what they experienced, since their fighting, support, and opinions deserve punishment.”23
Advocating Total Extermination of Islam’s Enemies
Al-Qaeda has adopted a broader interpretation of the religious command concerning the killing of infidels. It is considered an absolute command that does not depend on political circumstances, the need or will to take revenge, or a wish to liberate Muslim lands from infidel rule. Saif al-Din al-Ansari, in an article in al-Qaeda’s official periodical, presented the new, comprehensive concept of total extermination of Islam’s enemies based on the Quranic verse: “And that He may purge those who believe and deprive the unbelievers of blessings” (Al-Imran, 142). According to al-Ansari, this is the way Allah deals with infidels, who are doomed throughout history to total extermination through various types of death, as was the fate of the people of Noah, Hod, Saleh, Lot, Midian, and Pharaoh. Al-Ansari asserted that the extermination of infidels is a permanent Islamic law and unchangeable fate for infidels that is as relevant today as it was in past generations. According to al-Ansari, “Just as the law of extermination was applied to the infidel forces among the nations in previous days and no one could escape it, so it will be applied to the infidel forces in our day and no one will escape it. Namely, similar to the fate of the Thamoud and ‘Ad peoples [two pagan Arab peoples which, according to Islamic tradition, were exterminated due to their rejection of the words of the Prophet], so the American state, the Jewish state, and all other infidel countries will certainly be destroyed.”24
Al-Ansari further developed his concept of total extermination in a subsequent article. First, he firmly criticized the Islamic movements that raise the banner of daawa (Islamic preaching) and support the gradual spread of Islam through education, social organizations, and the economy as the preferred means to bring about the victory of Islam over other religions. He asserts that Allah has the power and might to subdue the infidels and to exterminate them by his will. However, He has not done so because of His wish to designate this task to Muslims.
Al-Ansari relies on the Quranic verse: “Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace [meaning that Allah will kill the infidels], and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people” (Al-Tawba, 14). The key word in this verse is “by your hands,” which indicates the great importance Allah attributes to the physical action of the infidels’ extermination. This is even more substantial than the daawa in executing the command of jihad, since the daawa, as important as it might be, could not fulfill God’s commandment for extermination.
Al-Ansari wrote: “Allah is capable of exterminating his enemies with no need for intermediaries or the help of anyone. His might is infinite…therefore, when He [Allah] designates the task of extermination of infidels to his believers, He does so as a hidden expression of His power…the infidels’ extermination is part of Islamic law, which is operative until the Day of Judgment. Its principal element will be fulfilled only at the hands of the believers, meaning through jihad, which is also to be operative until the Day of Judgment.25
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Notes
1. http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/90sep/rage.htm
2. Abd al-Aziz al-Jarbou’, Al-Ta’asil li-Mashrou’iyah Ma Hasals Li-Amrica Min Tadmir, Nov. 2001, p. 19-22 (“The Eighth Foundation” chapter). See also Saif al-Din al-Ansari, Al-Harb Al-Mu’asirah, January 2002.
3. http://www.saaid.net/fatwa/f23.htm
4. http://www.palestine-info.info/arabic/palestoday/dailynews/2002/feb02/19_2/detail.htm#1
5. For background on Qaradawi, see Reuven Paz, “Sheikh Dr. Yousef al-Qaradawi: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde,” Policywatch, Washington Institute for Near East Policy, October 18, 2001.
6. http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/arabic/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=2042
7. Abd al-Aziz al-Jarbou’, Al-Ta’asil, p. 72-73.
8. http://66.34.76.88/SalmanAldah/NihayetTareekh1.htm
9. Mamoun Fandy, Saudi Arabia and the Politics of Dissent (New York: Palgrave, 1999).
10. http://www.alshaab.com/GIF/28-06-2002/Q.htm
11. Salafi – A follower of the Prophet Muhammad’s immediate successors, the pious ancestors (al-salaf al-salihin). Salafi movements have sought to restore Islam on the basis of its seventh-century teachings – that is, Islam as it was under the Prophet Muhammad and his immediate successors. Salafis usually belong to one of several groups, most notably the Muslim Brotherhood and the Wahhabis.
12. http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/arabic/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=67739
13. http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/arabic/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=35806
14. http://www.islamonline.net/fatwaapplication/arabic/display.asp?hFatwaID=96437.
In this context, see also http://islamonline.net/fatwa/arabic/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=31548;
http://islamonline.net/fatwa/arabic/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=71076;
http://islamonline.net/fatwa/arabic/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=48811;
http://www.qassam.org/hamas_fire.htm
15. http://www.kataeb-ezzeldeen.com/Taqrer02_12_02.htm
16. http://www.alshaab.com/GIF/03-05-2002/Palestine%204.htm 17. Abu Ayman al-Hilali, “Risalah Al-Imam Wa-Malamih Al-Khuttah Al-Mustaqbalia,” Al-Ansar, vol. 21, Nov. 20, 2002, pp. 17-22.
18. Abu Muhammad al-Maqdisi, Al-Dimouqratia Din. http://almaqdese.com/c?c=1.1 Ali al-Khudeir defined secularism as “shirk” (polytheism). Ali bin Khudeir al-Khudeir, Al-Qawa’id Al-’Arba’ Al-lati Tufariq Bayna Al-Muslimin Wa-Din Al-’ilmiyeen, al-Quaim, Saudi Arabia. http://www.saaid.net/Warathah/khudier/kh3.zip. See also Abu al-Saed al-’amili, “Al-Dimoqratia: wsilah Li-’ihtiwa Al-Tayyar Al-’islami,” Al-Ansar, Vol. 23, December 19, 2002, pp. 25-30.
19. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abubanan/message/780; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abubanan/message/790.
20. Nasser bin Hamed al-Fahd, Risalah Fi ‘istikhdam ‘asliha Al-Dammar Al-Shamil Did Al-Kuffar, May 2003.
21. Saif al-Din al-Ansari, Ghazwa 11 Sebtenber, September 2002, pp. 10-12.
22. http://saaid.net/Warathah/hmood/h40.htm
23. http://alarabnews.com/alshaab/GIF/26-10-2001/fatwa2.htm
24. Saif al-Din al-Ansari, “Wa-Yimhaq Al-kafirin,” Al-Ansar, vol. 15, Aug. 10, 2002, pp. 4-8.
25. Saif al-Din al-Ansari, “Yi’adhibuhoum Allah Bi-’aydikum,” Al-Ansar, vol. 16, Aug. 24, 2002, pp. 4-9.
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Who’s Who Among Radical Islamic Thinkers
- A Glossary
Hamed al-Ali – Kuwaiti scholar (in his 40s). Serves as lecturer and preacher. Graduated al-Madina University in Saudi Arabia. Published Islamic verdicts justifying suicide attacks committed by Palestinians against Israelis.
Saif al-Din al-Ansari (nom de guerre) – Senior al-Qaeda leader and ideologist. Expresses support for total extermination of infidels through jihad for the sake of Allah.
Salman bin Fahed al-’Auda – Prominent Saudi scholar. Born in Baser (Buraida, Saudi Arabia) in 1956. Serves as Islamic researcher, lecturer and preacher. Runs the Islamic website http://www.islamtoday.net. Arrested by Saudi security services in 1994 for his radical views and jailed until 1999. Al-’Auda considers jihad against the U.S. in Muslim countries as justified self-defense in reaction to American occupation. He attributes great importance to the daawa (spreading Islam by education and preaching).
Nasser bin Hamed al-Fahd – Saudi scholar. Born in 1968 in Riyadh (Saudi Arabia). Graduated Al-Imam University in Riyadh. Served as lecturer in Islamic affairs. Jailed by Saudis 1994-1997. Al-Fahd published articles and religious edicts supporting the Taliban regime in Afghanistan and denouncing Muslims who cooperated with the U.S. In May 2003 he justified use of weapons of mass destruction against the U.S. as a retaliatory measure. Along with Ali al-Khudeir and Ahmed al-Khaldi, he incited to commit attacks against Westerners and openly supported the Riyadh bombings. In May 2003 he was rearrested by the Saudi security services and charged with advocating violence in sermons in mosques and on the Internet. Under pressure by Saudi authorities, which began cracking down on militants believed responsible for a string of attacks in Saudi Arabia, al-Fahd renounced militancy and attacks against innocent people inside Saudi Arabia in an interview on Saudi TV (November 2003). He focused on the past tendency of clerics to widely use the doctrine of takfir, charging that Muslims have become infidels and should be treated accordingly.
Suliman Abu Ghaith – Born in the 1970s in Kuwait. Former religious studies teacher. Serves as al-Qaeda’s spokesperson. He left Kuwait in 2000. Abu Ghaith was stripped of his citizenship after he called for retaliation against the U.S. during the war in Afghanistan. He is considered as one of Osama bin Laden’s closest associates.
Abu Ayman al-Hilali (nom de guerre) – Senior al-Qaeda leader and ideologist. Supports uncompromising jihad against infidels and religiously justifies mass killings of Western civilians.
Abd al-Aziz al-Jarbou’ – Saudi scholar. Published religious edicts justifying jihad against the U.S. and al-Qaeda’s attack on the U.S. in September 2001. Considered a supporter of al-Qaeda’s terrorist global network. Arrested in 2003 by Saudi security services.
Ali al-Khudeir – Saudi scholar. Born in 1954 in Riyadh (Saudi Arabia). Graduated Al-Imam University in Qusaim. Hamud bin Uqla al-Shuaibi, one of his teachers (see below), had great influence on shaping his Islamic views. Al-Khudeir published articles and religious edicts supporting the Taliban regime in Afganistan including the destruction of the Hindu statues, as a part of jihad against the infidels. He religiously justified al-Qaeda’s attack on the U.S. in September 2001. Along with Nasser al-Fahd and Ahmed al-Khaldi, he incited to commit attacks against Westerners and openly supported the Riyadh bombings. He was arrested by the Saudi security services and charged with advocating violence in sermons in mosques and on the Internet. Under pressure from Saudi authorities, which began cracking down on militants believed responsible for a string of attacks in Saudi Arabia, in an interview on Saudi TV (November 2003), al-Khudeir reversed his religious edicts justifying attacks against innocent people including Westerners under regime protection inside Saudi Arabia and encouraging Saudi youth to join the jihad in Iraq and Afghanistan. Like Nasser al-Fahd, he focused on limiting the application of takfir, which had largely internal implications.
Abu Muhammad al-Maqdisi – Palestinian scholar (born in Nablus), living in Jordan. Al-Maqdisi was involved in directing Islamist terrorist groups in Jordan under various names – Bay’at al-Imam, Jaysh Muhammad, Al-Islah wal-Tahaddi – along with the Islamic Movement for Change, which carried out the terrorist attack in Riyadh in November 1995 in which five American officials were killed. He was imprisoned between 1995 and 1999 and detained again in the recent wave of arrests of Islamists in Jordan.
Muhammad Saleh al-Munajjid – Saudi scholar. Born in 1961. Graduated Saudi University in Dhahran. The late grand mufti, Abd al-Aziz al-Baz, was one of his teachers, who had great influence in shaping his views. Serves as Islamic researcher and preacher.
Yusuf al-Qaradawi – Prominent Islamic scholar and well-known preacher. Born in Egypt (1926), lives in Qatar. Known as a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. Qaradawi heads the Sunni studies department at Qatar University. He was the first Sunni Muslim scholar to give religious legitimacy to the suicide operations of Hamas (1995), and to the participation of women in suicide attacks. Qaradawi has generally defended bin Laden as a representative and defender of oppressed Muslims against the “American and Zionist evilness,” even though he condemned the attacks on American soil against innocent civilians.
Hamud bin Uqla al-Shuaibi – Prominent and influential Saudi scholar. Born in 1927 in al-Shiqqa (Buraida, Saudi Arabia), died in 2001. Lost his eyesight in the age of 9 as a result of disease. Learned Islamic studies and law. Served as teacher of Islamic affairs. His students included a number of important Saudi religious leaders, including the current grand mufti. Al-Shuaibi published religious edicts supporting the Taliban regime in Afghanistan including the destruction of the Hindu statues, as part of jihad against the infidels. He religiously justified al-Qaeda’s attack on the U.S. in September 2001 and gave religious legitimacy to the suicide attacks against Israel carried out by Palestinians. In October 2001, bin Laden cited al-Shuaibi when he spoke of his justification for killing Jews and Christians.
Abd al-Rahman al-Sudays – Imam of the central mosque in Mecca. Well-known for his radical Islamic views and ardent preaching against the infidels.
Suliman bin Nasser al-Ulwan – Saudi scholar. Born in 1969 in Buraida. Serves as lecturer and preacher. Published religious edict justifying the Palestinian suicide attacks against Israeli civilians. In 2001 he stated that the attacks on the World Trade Center were an act of jihad.
Ahmad Yassin – Palestinian religious leader; born in 1937 in Ashkelon (today in southern Israel); worked as teacher, preacher, and community worker; completely paralyzed following an accident in his youth; founder of the Islamic Center in Gaza in 1973, which soon controlled all religious institutions; founder and spiritual leader of Hamas, the Islamic Resistance Movement, and its military wing, Izz al-Dinn al-Qassam, which is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of Israelis in terrorist attacks, including suicide bombings, since the 1990s. An Israeli court convicted Yassin in 1989 of ordering Hamas members to kidnap and kill two Israeli soldiers. He was released from jail in 1997 to appease Jordan after Israel’s failed attempt to assassinate Hamas leader Khaled Mashal in Amman. Yassin opposed the previously signed agreements between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, and maintains that eliminating Israel and the establishment of an Islamic state in Palestine is a religious duty.
Evowookiee… I think you missed the words “RADICAL ISLAMIC PERSPECTIVE”.
Not all Muslims hate the west and want to destroy it.
I wish I could give you some chocolate right now. I am sorry that you have been mistreated by someone who is a Christian
Thanks Dan. I’m sorry about it too. Hopefully their God will shead some light on their actions so they will realize what they have done and why it was wrong and be forgiven. I have put it behind me, but needed to vent about it, and I thank you for the nice comment. It was e-chocolate
I’m going to present this and please tell me if this situation is any different..
Let’s say a man who was devoutly christian decided to rape and murder a family of 3.. It’s all over the news, written about in every blog, and every says how horrible of a man he is.. Can you then say that every christian is a horrible person such as this? even if hundreds of christians did such things can you persecute the entire religion because of the outrageous acts of a few?
that’s what this seems to be to me.. because regardless of what a high number it seems to be, the actuality is that these radical extremeists are merely a FRACTION a of the entire religion.. it is worldwide, practiced by many and the majority of the practicers do not believe in this.. so why then group them all together in one stereotype?
If and only if you don’t mind giving up your rights because the Government suspects you of something. That makes me feel really secure. I am with Jensa07 and Sickboy86 on this one.
Izly: “Not all Muslims hate the west and want to destroy it.”
But the orthodox Muslims who actually believe what their holy writings plainly say do.
Evowookiee has it.
There are bad sides of every religion.. it’s a matter of how the person practicing said religions percieves it..
you could just as easily use the bible as a way of hate, hindus could just as easily find something and misinterpret it in their religion.. my point is everyone isn’t the same and can’t be looked upon as such
in saying that i’m done
have a good day everyone
Not all orthodox Mulisms want to destroy the West. They may not like it, but not liking it is a hell of a lot different than wanting to bomb it all to pieces.
Um…i am not one of the American citizens but i think maybe the answer should be”Yes”…
Projekevil’s got it right,
you can’t stereotype every muslim or even the Islamic faith as being the root of evil because everyone isn’t the same.
Christians through history have used the bible for war and violance. Does anyone remember the Crusades???
I think too many Americans suffer from Islam-a-phobia. Which is ironic, because similarly, too many terrorists suffer from American-o-phobia. It’s kind of odd because the tactics of both phobics seem to rely on enhancing the differences between each other, whereas the obvious solution should be trying to bridge the gap.
I think too many Americans suffer from Islam-a-phobia. Which is ironic, because similarly, too many terrorists suffer from American-o-phobia. It’s kind of odd because the tactics of both phobics seem to rely on enhancing the differences between each other, whereas the obvious solution should be trying to bridge the gap.
Well said! The question now becomes how to bridge that gap… that’ll be the harder part
The really don’t have any rights, but I think there should be some procedure to insure that there is enough reliable evidence to detain them.
What would they do if they had Americans in their hands?
yes. the bill of rights and constitution only apply to citizens. in fact, illegal aliens shouldn’t get the same rights as citizens. that is what makes being a citizen special.
What would they do if they had Americans in their hands?
probably kill them all.
illegal aliens shouldn’t get the same rights as citizens. that is what makes being a citizen special.
I agree, hence why they are “illegal” aliens. I think though, that since we give them rights to due process et al. when arrested for a crime that it would be hypocritical if we did not give those rights to those arrested and thrown into Gitmo, on the sole basis that they are not citizens. If there are other rational reasons that they should not get a fair, speedy trial and et al. I have yet to hear them.
ThemfromSpace: No other country abides by our constitution, why do you think we should grant a NON-citizen the same rights as us?
ThemfromSpace: No other country abides by our constitution, why do you think we should grant a NON-citizen the same rights as us?
because we already do.
FOxyKim, some of them behead them and show the footage over and over and the net…
sorta
i totally agree with FOxyKim. if they had American prisoners, those prisoners would not have been treated nearly as well, if not already killed without any trial. we are at least offering them some type of trial. Even though our system is flawed, (is anything ever perfect?) we have created the longest lasting and most effective democratic system around, rivaled only by the U.K. Even though we may not like everything our government does, we have the most freedoms of any other country and these freedoms are generally extend to foreigners but, there still has to be a clear division between the rights of a citizen and the rights of a foreigner. Otherwise, why become a citizen?
To some degree, yes. Our legal system is messed up enough anyway, I think the real issue is that many of them would probably get off with little to no penalty if tried under normal rules.
-Jared
Good point smooth_moby!
I think perhaps ppl are confusing our civil liberties, illegals etc. and people who are prisoners of war. Military Law is different.
i totally agree with FOxyKim. if they had American prisoners, those prisoners would not have been treated nearly as well, if not already killed without any trial. we are at least offering them some type of trial. Even though our system is flawed, (is anything ever perfect?) we have created the longest lasting and most effective democratic system around, rivaled only by the U.K. Even though we may not like everything our government does, we have the most freedoms of any other country and these freedoms are generally extend to foreigners but, there still has to be a clear division between the rights of a citizen and the rights of a foreigner. Otherwise, why become a citizen?
I agree that they would not be treated nearly as well. I know at least we are offering them some type of trial, but I think that they should get some kind of legal representation/councel, whatever, because that’s only fair. There should be a clear division between the righst of cizitzens and no cizitzens, but I think if we are trying a criminal under our laws that they should have the same right to a fair trial, lawyer et al. as a citizen.
I think they should get a fair trial. It’s the whole “Innocent unless proven guilty.” (It drives me crazy when people get that quote wrong and say “until”. Rather presumtious if you ask me.)We have a good legal system and if they are truly guilty, they will be put to justice, and if they aren’t, they’ll be put to that justice. If we gave anyone we suspected to be bad an unfair trial, everyone ever convicted of a crime would be in jail! I’m all for keeping America safe and taking all precautions against reliving a day like September 11th, but what if these men are innocent?
By the way – I’ve never posted here before but I read your site constantly. It’s very good. I’m a fan.
Izly- By the way, I forgot to write this. I bear no ill will towards you personally, this is a debate of the minds, and I in no way feel any hatred, anger, or hold you in any contempt. I just disagree with you.
Midn is right
But the orthodox Muslims who actually believe what their holy writings plainly say do.
I spent time in a Muslim country, I ate with them, I talked with them. There are many beautiful people that are Muslim, BUT the core of the belief is hatred. There are watered down versions, and if you read the really long article that I posted (it really is a good read) there was just reciently a change in their philosophy to not attack opposing Muslim sects—meaning that they view any Muslim group that does not subscribe to their thinking as heretics.
Moussaiu isn’t a citizen, and he got a fair trial! And in his case it’s pretty definent he’s a terrorist.
Military Law is different
military law still requires that they get a lawyer and a fair trial and still requires that it be proven beyond a resonable doubt that they are guilty (not that I thinkt hat would be hard) but…. yea, it’s all in the UCMJ and other military law books. You should be able to find copies of them online if you’re interested
Izly- By the way, I forgot to write this. I bear no ill will towards you personally, this is a debate of the minds, and I in no way feel any hatred, anger, or hold you in any contempt. I just disagree with you.
I didn’t think that you felt that way. It is a debate of the minds, and opinion, and etc, and is a passionate one. I, likewise, bear no ill will towards you and am not angry or anything. I just diagree with you too. We agree to disagree.
Midn is right
But the orthodox Muslims who actually believe what their holy writings plainly say do.
Not all of them do. Not all Muslims do. I’ve read the Qu’ran and it doesn’t say “go kill all those who don’t believe in God”… I still think it’s interrpretation, and some do and some don’t. Lord knows what the numbers are, but they are high on both sides I think
I spent time in a Muslim country, I ate with them, I talked with them. There are many beautiful people that are Muslim, BUT the core of the belief is hatred. Not for all Muslims, and not from what I have read. There are watered down versions, and if you read the really long article that I posted (it really is a good read) there was just reciently a change in their philosophy to not attack opposing Muslim sects—meaning that they view any Muslim group that does not subscribe to their thinking as heretics But that is the radical muslim view, not Islam in it’s PURE form, and that’s what I’m arguing. Islam in it’s PURE form is very peaceful and about tolerance. I have a book at home that explains this. I will share the information in it if you wish, just leave me a comment on my site and remind me.
.
I’ll echo UR_MUSE here. Definately Not. The law is clear and rights should not be suspended because that could lead to greater and greater breaches of rights. I think precaution should be taken about making the trials very public, but they should be given due process under our law. “Innocent until…” and besides, we don’t want our decisions made based on fear, EVER.
Posted 3/30/2006 at 9:05 AM by awklegionheime
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Proof that America is still prejudice: a question about TERRORISTS becomes a discussion about MUSLIMS. Terrorists can come from anywhere in the world, including America. Don’t forget the Unibomber. Don’t forget Oklahoma City.
yesire
not sure, but I would 100% avoid anything we would legally deem “cruel and unusual”
Proof that America is still prejudice: a question about TERRORISTS becomes a discussion about MUSLIMS. Terrorists can come from anywhere in the world, including America. Don’t forget the Unibomber. Don’t forget Oklahoma City.
and the IRA
Military Law is different
military law still requires that they get a lawyer and a fair trial and still requires that it be proven beyond a resonable doubt that they are guilty (not that I thinkt hat would be hard) but…. yea, it’s all in the UCMJ and other military law books. You should be able to find copies of them online if you’re interested
- This is true. But again there is a difference between Domestic Law, International Law, Military Law…These people fall under NONE of these. They are not representitives of a recognized government, they are not traditional POW’s, they are not American Citizens.
This is the problem isn’t it? The fact that people “FEEL” like these pirates should be cvd under the Constitution. my question is
Why do you feel like those who show no respect for our laws should have protection under our constitution.
We are not going to try them under our civil laws. If we try them in a military court, which we probably will, then let them have all the rights which we grant to TERRORISTS, or ALLEGED TERRORISTS.
If Joe blow from another country comes here, and commits a crime, he will get different treatment then someone who was arrested by the military.
Evowookiee I tip my hat to you, good comment!
The reason is because These people would not be Terrorists if they weren’t Muslim. simple as that.
How many non-muslims have flown planes into buildings?
How many non-muslims strap bombs onto their chests and blow up innocent people?
How many non-muslims cut the heads off of reporters?
How many non-muslims include in their daily prayers a cry to war?
This is true. But again there is a difference between Domestic Law, International Law, Military Law…These people fall under NONE of these. They are not representitives of a recognized government, they are not traditional POW’s, they are not American Citizens.
This is the problem isn’t it? The fact that people “FEEL” like these pirates should be cvd under the Constitution. my question is
Why do you feel like those who show no respect for our laws should have protection under our constitution.
you’re right, that is the problem. They don’t fall under any of those groups, really. Why do I feel these people who show no respect for our laws should have the same protection under our constitution? Because that is a policy in America. A lot of Criminals are criminals because they have no respect for our laws… like serial killers who kill for fun, the unibomber, Tim Mcveigh, The guy in D.C. metor that was shooting people from a white truck with his son at his side, Moussari (who wasn’t a citizen and was a terrorists). All of those people and people like them have no respect for the law, and they got a fair trial, a lawyer, required that they be proven guilty to be convicted. I think it’s only moral and ethical that we give them a fair trial. We all know that they are not likely to be found anything other than guilty, so why not let them have due process. Or are we holding off because we don’t have evidence? And what should the U.S. do if they don’t have evidence to prove them guilty?
The reason is because These people would not be Terrorists if they weren’t Muslim. simple as that. that’s not true. If the IRA had a beef with the U.S., they’d probably attack us, instead they just attack the U.K.
How many non-muslims have flown planes into buildings? The IRA bombs cars
How many non-muslims strap bombs onto their chests and blow up innocent people? The IRA
How many non-muslims cut the heads off of reporters? The IRA’s shot people in the head, I think that counts close enough…. they’re European after all has to be a bit more civilized *rolls eyes*
How many non-muslims include in their daily prayers a cry to war? Not sure if the IRA does this or not… but it’s possible.
Point is, there are other terrorist organizations out there that are non-muslim. The IRA is just a well known one that I’ve lived with. I lived in England for 4 years, and over that 4 years, several bombings, shootings, and ects happened from IRA attacks. There was actually a really bad car bombing in Bristol a few years ago that was associated with the IRA.
But that’s the thing-
Terrorists are not just criminals. They Don’t have Constitutional rights. I’m not debating whether they should or could…it is FACT that they don’t. That’s the argument I’m making. They don’t have these rights, Moussori was a completely different matter- his transgression happend on American soil. Al Queda is a world network, and they didn’t commit crimes on our soil, but they were a regime of evil that vowed publicly to destroy the west…not because of our arrogance, but because we did not follow Allah…and we support Israel.
The issue of the detainees at Guantanamo Bay has been on my mind for some time now. Since the beginning, in early 2002 when the United States began to transport detainees to be held at the US Naval Station at Guantanamo Bay, I have been conflicted about this issue.
The questions we must examine are:
Q: Is the indefinite detention without trial or access to legal representation JUST?
A: No.
This is the easiest question to answer. As human beings, we have an innate sense of what is fair and what is not. To be held without charge, without trial to determine innocence or guilt for a crime, and without access to legal counsel representative in the judicial system that person is being held in is unjust and unfair.
We know this as habeas corpus — legally, the remedy which permits a detained individual to take proceedings before a court to determine the lawfulness or otherwise of detention, and to order release if detention is not lawful.
Q): Then, although the indefinite detention without trial or access to legal representation is UNJUST, is it still LEGAL?
A): No.
This one is difficult to answer, because this issue falls into a legal “black hole”.
Let me elaborate.
There are a number of legal concerns relating to the circumstances in which the detainees are held. There is uncertainty with regard to the legal BASIS OF DETENTION and the exact legal STATUS of individual prisoners. The detainees have been called “enemy combatants”, but it is unclear whether this means they are detained as quasi ‘prisoners of war’, ‘war criminals’, ‘terrorists’, under administrative detention, or something else.
First, there is a jurisdictional problem here. In the cases that have been brought before US District Courts relating to the lawfulness of the detentions, the courts have upheld a 1950 US Supreme court rulling that US courts do not have jurisdiction to issue writs of habeas corpus for alien nationals detained outside the “sovereign territory” of the United States.
The status of Guantanamo Bay in international law is unusual – it was leased from Cuba by the US in 1903. The Lease provides that Cuba keeps “sovereignty” over the territory, but that the US has “complete jurisdiction and control”. The US Courts have interpreted this to mean that they have no jurisdiction over aliens held at Guantanamo Bay because while the US authorities have “jurisdiction and control” under international law the territory belongs to Cuba. A technical point, maybe, but, unless there is a successful appeal to the US Supreme Court, under US Constitutional law the detainees do not have access to any US court or tribunal to review the lawfulness of their detention.
Now, if US Constitutional law lacks the capability to handle the detainees, we must examine International law.
There are concerns over potential violations of international human rights norms and articles of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR); such as, Article 7 (prohibition against torture), Article 9 (right to liberty), Article 10 (right to humane treatment), Article 14 (right to a fair trial) and Article 26 (equality before the law).
In the circumstances the protection of Article 9(4) of the ICCPR is crucial; that is, the writ of habeas corpus or amparo; this is the legal vehicle by which alleged breaches of international human rights law can be aired and tested.
In the context of international human rights law, the Human Rights Commission (HRC) have confirmed that the right to habeas corpus “applies to all persons deprived of their liberty by arrest or detention” (General Comment 8/16, 1982) and that this includes proceedings before a military court (Vuolanne v Finland, HRC Doc A/44/40). Individuals are entitled to this right “without delay” regardless of the reasons for their detention. Moreover, the HRC has stated that: “The Committee is satisfied that States parties generally understand that the right to habeas corpus and amparo should not be limited in situations of emergency.” (General Comment 29/1950, 2001). In particular, the right to habeas corpus cannot be derogated from in states of emergency in respect of those rights that are non-derogable (e.g. the prohibition of torture).
The US will argue that the President’s Military Order of 13 November 2001 (Military Order) has suspended the prisoners’ right to seek habeas corpus. Article 7(b)(2) of the Military Order provides that “the individual shall not be privileged to seek any remedy or maintain any proceeding, directly or indirectly, or to have any such remedy or proceeding sought on the individual’s behalf, in (i) any court of the United States…”.
However, if the US Courts were to apply Article 9 of the ICCPR (international human rights law), rather than exclusively relying on US Constitutional law, the detainees at Guantanamo Bay should have the right of access to habeas corpus, regardless of the existence of a declared state of emergency in the US.
The indefinite detention without trial or access to legal counsel is LEGAL by US Constitutional Law, but ILLEGAL by international human rights law and the articles of the ICCPR.
Q3: If the indefinite detention without trial or access to legal counsel is both UNJUST and ILLEGAL, is it NECESSARY?
A3: No.
Maslow’s heirarchy of needs not only applies to individuals but also to groups and nations. The need for justice is superceded by the need for survivial, and National Security ranks higher on our national hierarchy of needs than our need to seek justice — justice cannot be served if the nation does not survive. National Security issues are of greater importance than issues of what is just and what is not.
However, if the problem of jurisdiction is solved and these cases can be brought to trial WE HAVE NO REASON NOT TO BRING THEM TO TRIAL. National Security is not a valid reason to deny access to habeas corpus in this case. Trials can be held behind closed doors with legal counsel and jurors who have the necessary CLEARANCE to hear the evidence not only to determine whether detention is lawful or otherwise but to determine innocence or guilt of the crimes charged.
The roots of terrorism run deep. Granting the remedy of habeas corpus to these detainees will not change the way the terrorists view us. They will still seek to destroy us to the last. This is a war that will not end until one side is annihilated, and I support the annihilation of every last one of our enemies. I support the “no holds barred” approach to this war on terrorism. This is our survival at stake.
However, this is not a valid excuse to deny the rule of law. There is a time and place when the needs of National Security will need to suspend the rule of law, but this is not one of them. Dato’ Param Cumaraswamy, the Special Rapporteur on the independence of judges and lawyers in response to a decision of the US Court of Appeal, remarks:
“By such conduct, the Government of the United States, in this case, will be seen as systematically evading application of domestic and international law so as to deny these suspects their legal rights. Detention without trial offends the first principle of the rule of law” and he added, “can set a dangerous precedent”. He further added: “The war on terrorism cannot possibly be won by denial of legal rights, including fundamental principles of due process of those merely suspected of terrorism”.
I’m not sure how “fair” their trials were…:lauging: We do a pretty good job of trying people on tv rather then in court.
Timothy Mcveigh didn’t even want a trial, he believed what he did was right and stated he would die for his belief…which he did.
I ment to put up there, they’re not just American criminals, they’re international terrorists.
This is a list of terrorist organizations from http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/tgpndx.htm. Note, there are several Irish terrorists organization, as well as one popular one from spain (non muslim) and there are others on here that are non muslim. not all mustlims are terrorists and not all terrorists are muslims.
17 November
32-County Sovereignty Committee
see Real IRA (RIRA)
Abu Nidal Organization (ANO)
Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG)
Aleph
see Aum Shinrikyo (Aum)
al-Aqsa Martyrs Battalion
see Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade
Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade
Ansar Al-Islam (AI)
Ansar al-Sunnah Partisans of Islam
see Ansar Al-Islam (AI)
Arab Revolutionary Brigades
see Abu Nidal Organization (ANO)
Armed Islamic Group
Army of Mohammed
see Jaish-e-Mohammed (JEM)
Army of the Pure
see Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LT)
Army of the Pure and Righteous
see Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LT)
Army of the Righteous
see Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LT)
Asbat al-Ansar
Aum Shinrikyo (Aum)
Aum Supreme Truth (Aum)
see Aum Shinrikyo (Aum)
Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia
see Al-Qaida
Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA)
Batasuna
see Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA)
Black September
see Abu Nidal Organization (ANO)
Communist Party of Philippines/New People’s Army (CPP/NPA)
Continuity Army Council
see Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA)
Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA)
Dev Sol
see Revolutionary People’s Liberation Party/Front (DHKP/C)
Devrimci Sol
see Revolutionary People’s Liberation Party/Front (DHKP/C)
Egyptian Islamic Jihad
see Al-Jihad
EIJ
see Al-Jihad
ELA
see Revolutionary Nuclei
Ellalan Force
see The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE)
Epanastatiki Organosi 17 Noemvri
see 17 November
Euzkadi Ta Askatasuna
see Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA)
Fatah Revolutionary Council
see Abu Nidal Organization (ANO)
Freedom and Democracy Congress of Kurdistan
see Kongra-Gel (KGK)
Gama’a al-Islamiyya
al-Gama’at
see Gama’a al-Islamiyya
Le Groupe Salafiste pour la Predication et le Combat
see Salafist Group for Call and Combat (GSPC)
HAMAS
Harakat ul-Mujahidin (HUM)
Harakat ul-Ansar
see Harakat ul-Mujahidin (HUM)
Helpers of Islam
see Ansar Al-Islam (AI)
Hizballah
Islamic Group
see Gama’a al-Islamiyya
Islamic Jihad
see Al-Jihad
Islamic Jihad
see Hizballah
Islamic Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine
see Hizballah
Islamic Jihad of Palestine
see Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ)
Islamic Resistance Movement
see HAMAS
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU)
Jaish-e-Mohammed (JEM)
Jaish Ansar Al-Islam
see Ansar Al-Islam (AI)
Jama’at al-Tawhid wa’al-Jihad
see Tanzim Qa’idat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn (QJBR)
Jemaah Islamiya Organization (JI)
Al-Jihad (AJ)
Jihad Group
see Al-Jihad
Jund Al-Islam
see Ansar Al-Islam (AI)
KADEK
see Kongra-Gel (KGK)
Kahane Chai (Kach)
Khuddam-ul-Islam
see Jaish-e-Mohammed (JEM)
Kongra-Gel (KGK)
Kurdish Taliban
see Ansar Al-Islam (AI)
Kurdistan Freedom and Democracy Congress
see Kongra-Gel (KGK)
Kurdistan People’s Congress
see Kongra-Gel (KGK)
Kurdistan Workers’ Party
see Kongra-Gel (KGK)
Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LT)
Lashkar-e-Toiba
see Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LT)
Lashkar i Jhangvi (LJ)
The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE)
Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG)
al-Mansoorian
see Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LT)
al Monsooreen
see Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LT)
The Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK)
Muslim Iranian Students Society
see The Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK)
National Council of Resistance
see The Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK)
National Council of Resistance of Iran (NCRI)
see The Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK)
National Liberation Army (ELN)
The National Liberation Army of Iran
see The Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK)
New People’s Army (NPA)
see Communist Party of Philippines/New People’s Army (CPP/NPA)
Palestine Liberation Front (PLF)
Palestine Liberation Front-Abu Abbas Faction
see Palestine Liberation Front (PLF)
Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ)
Palestinian Islamic Jihad-Shalla Faction
see Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ)
Palestinian Islamic Jihad-Shaqaqi Faction
see Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ)
Party of God
see Hizballah
The People’s Mujahedin of Iran (PMOI)
see The Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK)
PKK
see Kongra-Gel (KGK)
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC)
Al-Qaida
Al-Qa’ida in Iraq
see Tanzim Qa’idat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn (QJBR)
Al-Qa’ida of Jihad Organization in the Land of The Two Rivers
see Tanzim Qa’idat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn (QJBR)
Al-Quds Brigades
see Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ)
Real IRA (RIRA)
Republican Sinn Fein
see Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA)
Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC)
Revolutionary Left
see Revolutionary People’s Liberation Party/Front (DHKP/C)
Revolutionary Nuclei
Revolutionary Cells
see Revolutionary Nuclei
Revolutionary Organization 17 November
see 17 November
Revolutionary Organization of Socialist Muslims
see Abu Nidal Organization (ANO)
Revolutionary People’s Liberation Party/Front (DHKP/C)
Revolutionary Popular Struggle
see Revolutionary Nuclei
Sangillan Force
see The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE)
Salafist Group for Call and Combat (GSPC)
Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat
see Salafist Group for Call and Combat (GSPC)
Sendero Luminoso People’s Liberation Army
see Shining Path (SL)
Shining Path (SL)
Talaa’al-Fateh
see Al-Jihad
Tamil Tigers
see The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE)
Tanzim Qa’idat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn (QJBR)
Tehrik ul-Furqaan
see Jaish-e-Mohammed (JEM)
United Self-Defense Forces/Group of Colombia (AUC)
Usama Bin Ladin Organization
see Al-Qaida
Al-Zarqawi Network
see Tanzim Qa’idat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn (QJBR)
Groups Listed in Prior Editions of Patterns of Global Terrorism
3rd October Organization
see Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (ASALA)
15 May Organization
Alex Boncayao Brigade (ABB)
Algerian Terrorism
Anti-Imperialist International Brigade (AIIB)
see Japanese Red Army
Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (ASALA)
Army for the Liberation of Rwanda (ALIR)
Al-’Asifa
see Al-Fatah
Al-Fatah
Chukaku-Ha (Nucleus or Middle Core Faction)
Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP)
Ellalan Force
see The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE)
Federation of Associations of Canadian Tamils (FACT)
see The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE)
First of October Antifascist Resistance Group (GRAPO)
Force 17
Former Armed Forces (ex-FAR)
see Army for the Liberation of Rwanda (ALIR)
Interahamwe
see Army for the Liberation of Rwanda (ALIR)
Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Jamaat ul-Fuqra
Japanese Red Army (JRA)
Khmer Rouge
Lautaro Popular Rebel Forces (FRPL)
see Lautaro Youth Movement (MJL)
Lautaro Youth Movement (MJL)
Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF)
Manuel Rodriguez Patriotic Front (FPMR)
Morazanist Patriotic Front (FPM)
National Liberation Army (ELN)–Columbia
Orange Volunteers (OV)
The Orly Group
see Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (ASALA)
People Against Gangsterism and Drugs (PAGAD)
Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO)
Party of Democratic Kampuchea
see Khmer Rouge
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-Special Command (PFLP-SC)
Popular Struggle Front (PSF)
Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA)
see Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Provos
see Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Puka Inti (Sol Rojo, Red Sun)
Red Army Faction (RAF)
Red Brigades (BR)
Red Hand Defenders (RHD)
Revolutionary People’s Struggle (ELA)
Revolutionary United Front (RUF)
Sikh Terrorism
Sol Rojo
see Puka Inti (Sol Rojo, Red Sun)
Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement (MRTA)
Tupac Katari Guerrilla Army (EGTK)
Al Ummah
United Popular Action Movement (MAPU/L)
see Lautaro Youth Movement (MJL)
Zviadists
sceapena : sounds like ACLU comments.
ur welcome and by the way i wanna say that i really find what u do interesting………its actually gotten me so much interested that i have started studying theology…..its really quite fun……..all thanks to you
i think that we should always be in consideration of our nation’s security and safety…soo what ever it takes……………….
at least thats just how i see it
fan of dan
Yes, you do what you gotta do
But that’s the thing-
Terrorists are not just criminals. They Don’t have Constitutional rights. I’m not debating whether they should or could…it is FACT that they don’t. That’s the argument I’m making. They don’t have these rights, Moussori was a completely different matter- his transgression happend on American soil. Al Queda is a world network, and they didn’t commit crimes on our soil, but they were a regime of evil that vowed publicly to destroy the west…not because of our arrogance, but because we did not follow Allah…and we support Israel.
I still think that they should be tried in a military court, fairly. They are prisonars of our “war” on terrorism and should be treated as such. Since our military was the arrestors and our military is the one holding them, shouldn’t they be subject to military law and held accountable by military law for whatever they are guilty for? If we can’t give them consititutional rights, as they are not citizens and not criminals in america, then we should try them as POWs since, technically, that’s what they are, even though we are technically, not at war, since it hasn’t been declared (although I think GW calling it the war on terror is declaration enough)
Timothy Mcveigh didn’t even want a trial, he believed what he did was right and stated he would die for his belief…which he did.
Well, maybe if we gave the terrorists the option, they won’t want a trial either since they believe what they do is right and are willing to die for it
I’m over at charmedmommy now.
Check your new subs, it should be there.
Allrighty everyone, I am going home for the day. Feel free to debate what I’ve said on my site; I will get back to you later this evening or tomorrow morning.
Peace and Love to all!
~*Lizbeth*~
I thinkwere were discussing Muslims and constipation. Or was it Diarrhea? Or maybe it was Military Law vs diarrhea? Dammit Dan, stop posting so much crap. Speaking of crap, diarrhea…
sceapena- that was very well written.
But here’s another black hole you can fall into- when International law superceeds the Constitution, then we have a problem on our hands. We then create a precedent where international policy can override our own laws. Personally I hope for trials, but I am not willing to allow the HRC or the ICCPR to dictate domestic policy.
Izly- There is a difference between the IRA and Al Queda
IRA- protesting the political annexation of Ireland by Britain
Al Queda- HOLY WAR
Evowookiee:
First, thank you.
Believe it or not, I actually agree with you about International law superceding the Constitution. My analysis was based on existing US Constitutional and International human rights laws that the United States has signed to. I disagree with you in believing the detainees, as what I view as a basic human right, should be presented with evidence against them and tried.
However, I agree with you on the basis of the same Maslowian heirarchy that I wrote about — the laws of my household hold greater importance than the laws of my community; likewise, US Domestic law in the United States holds greater importance than the laws of the International community.
I disagree with the US Domestic laws, but that doesn’t mean I don’t believe they hold precedence (domestically) over International law. I’m not saying we should try them based on International law. I’m saying we should try them because it’s their right as human beings no matter how much I’d like to cut off their heads and shit down their throats. This is similar to what somebody else said about the difference between “how I feel, personally” about an issue and “what is just” about that issue.
Just: Giving the detainees a trial and legal representation
How I feel: Give no quarter to the enemy, because he will give none to you.
I hope this clears up my view on the matter.
I thought we operated under the rule of “innocent till proven guilty”…
I don’t have a problem with what we are doing in Guantanamo. We are still at war in Iraq and Afghanstan and they are prisoners of war (not in uniform for the most part).
In answer to you question, no. We must let people who are legally in the US have the rights that are their due.
Okay actually I take that back. I re-read what I wrote earlier, and I >DID< say we should try them based on International law. My bad.
What I was trying to say was that if US Domestic law cannot handle this situation based on lack of jurisdiction and the President’s Military Order suspending the writ of habeas corpus to the detainees, then a POSSIBLE avenue to a solution was possible via International law and specifically ICCPR Article 9.
yes
Wow MissLiterati …that’s a great source of getting a clear picture …SHOWTIME? LOL.
It’s a really wierd situation, because they are not technically part of an organized army, yet they engage troops in the field, and they plant explosives. They are not US citizens residing in the US, so our local laws do not apply to them. Therefore, if they were armed and/or engaging in terriorist activities when apprehended, then they should be held in the country where they were captured.
I believe since they are not citizens, therefore do not fall under protection of our Bill of Rights, meaning we have no responsibility to protect them. And risking the exploitation of America for a non-citizen’s and suspected terrorist’s rights is not worth the danger.
[ariana]
Another possiblity is this, and I hate this because I saw first hand what the UN did in Bosnia-
Allow for a third party negotiator. If we have no jurisdiction baised on the fact that the Constitution provides no rights or no solution to habeas corpus dilema. I would rather dump the responsiblity to some country who acknowledges international law as precedent then to risk damaging the strength of our Constitution.
OR- we could treat them with the Precedent that the navy has treated pirates with…but do they still have yardarms?
No, that is a stupid agenda for the moronic bush administration to push. Who decides what is the exception? Who decides who is a terrorist? Who who who?
Seriously, if those terrible terrorists were really going to kill 10s of 1000s of us in a single swoop with the horrible weapon of mass destruction, THEY ALREADY WOULD HAVE.
If someone lobbed a nuke at the U.S., its perfectly obvious from our reaction to 9/11 that we would start lobbing nukes at anyone who sneezed, every shadow, anything and everything. That is my opinion. Im emotional and reactionary. Passionate and somehow… serene and correct once I have dived into the emotions your questions make me feel.
This administration rules on fear and ignorance. Everyone is exploited and anyone who says otherwise is unpatriotic and possibly a homosexual terrorist abortionist who worships satan and has sex with Osama. I mean come on, so many laws and rights have been trampled since 9/11. Its disgusting! This is no exception.
I will do research into Neuremberg, if that is spelled right. How they tried the Nazis? Thats how we should try the detainees. Until I know more I can make no more pronouncements, but jeez… ABSOLUTELY NOT! NO NO NO NO!!!!! I guess I already made up my mind.
I think they should have some rights. Not full rights, because they aren’t American citizens, but since they are only suspected terrorists, not known terrorists, I think that they deserve some rights.
i dont think so
some people are so stupid and selfish..what about, “INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUITY” ? Huh? They are suspected, not definite…I’d hate to have my rights be taken away bc noone believes me one I say I didn’t do something, and I honestly didn’t…our country was founded on certain beliefs, and the innocent until proven guilty thing is one of them..we are a modern ‘civilazed country’ well lets keep the justice system that way too.
The suspected terrorists in Guantanamo are prisoners of war if they have violated laws or done acts of treachary which have resulted in harm against US Citizens such as the 3000 who were killed in NYC during 9/11. We are at war against people who want to do harm to US citizens by blowing up cities with bombs. They have no sense of values or morals except those which say we are allowed to kill those who live in the US because of some terrorist mandate. These prisoners have not been mistreated, or abused, or denied their right to practice their religious beliefs. They have been treated very well under the current circumstances. Send them back to a prison in their own country for crimes they have commited say against their state, and see how they get treated there. These are not mistreated people, However, they are prisoners of war who are being detained in order to allow the safety and security of the United States to continue in its protection of citizens who live here.
absoulutely yes, when you are wicked you dont have rights, you get hurt, what you put out there will come back and smack you in the face.
i think this falls under….
Practice what you preach
Suspected terrorists? Depends on who is considered a suspected terrorist.
But in short, probably no.
Proven terrorists, on the other hand, have extremely restricted rights.
Try no… if he take away rights of the people we’re trying at court, then we’re showing that we’re just as bad as Saddam was.
Yes they should be restricted. I would rather offend maybe hundreds of Liberals ,maybe, than mourn the loss of thousands more.
Rights? Rights? What rights do terrorists have? NONE
These terrorists are NOT American citizens. They aer not protected by our Bill of Rights. They want to kill us. Wake Up! Wake Up! Anyone who wants to give them rights, is siding with the enemy.
Absolutely not.
“Terrorists” are only deemed terrorists by the same government that is denying their rights.
If A determines B
And A determines C
What if the original determination was false?
Everything falls apart.
we are not yet a facist state. no, we should not restrict any one’s rights, regardless. besides, many of our weaknesses are obvious to anyone with eyes to see… and you can find out the rest of the weaknesses by even a cursory examination of sources online.
Yes
Of course people not yet convicted of a crime shouldn’t be treated with the same fundamental rights as American citizens, simply because they are not U.S. citizens and they have been accused of terrorism. Forget how the rights guaranteed to us in the Constitution are supposed to be basic human rights…
After all, if you’re not white, you don’t count as human anyway…
exactly!, i agree with previous noter who said “your not limiting their rights if they have NONE”
NO!!! I think everything that I want to say on this matter has already been voiced. Innocent until proven guilty, my ass.
They have no rights as an American, other than basic human rights………….
No. We should just chop off their heads now and have the trial later like they do when we are their prisoners.
yes.
duh! of course!
exactly!, i agree with previous noter who said “your not limiting their rights if they have NONE
Not to sound bitchy, but what gives you the right to decide that they have none? “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”. Not to mention, what happened to our good ol american value that we were brought up with of “treat others how you want to be treated”? Does anyone remember how they felt when the Americans were detained and locked up in Greece?
no way. key word there- suspected. meaning POSSIBLY guilty. meaning POSSIBLY innocent.
Yes; If we want a safe country to live in, we have to avoide the potential threats (terrorists) as much as possible. So we should take action in any way that would be effective to keep them out of ‘our’ country.
~Gravdigger, when you dig my grave, can you make it shallow, so i can feel the rain?~
They should have rights as in basic human rights, but lawful court rights? No way! If they realy are terroist, then they are responsible for murders and torturs not just to Americans but to their own people as well. Therefore, they are enemies not just to the U.S but to Iraq as well.
AMEN TO THAT BROTHER
No way! If they realy are terroist, then they are responsible for murders and torturs not just to Americans but to their own people as well. Therefore, they are enemies not just to the U.S but to Iraq as well.
and how are you going to prove them guilty without a proper trial and giving them the ability to defend themselves (in a military tribunal since they are POWs)
hi want to be franklin
> Unfortunately, I think they should be given the chance to be reviewed by a U.S. magistrate to ensure that under no circumstance could they kick this back thru the U.N. We need a better definition than the declaration ‘They have no rights under the U.S. Law’, when you consider ‘Who’ is making this declaration.
Peace
I didn’t get a chance to read all the notes, but I read most of them.
And I’m appalled.
What difference does it make what country you were born in?
Jesus wasn’t an American. For you Catholic types, neither is the pope.
What is it about possessing different citizenship that makes them undeserving of fairness. What makes them undeserving of what we deserve? Simly because we suspect they did something they very well might not have done?
I’m not even gongi t touch the law. Morally, stripping away right is reprehensible.
I don’t get why this is called the Theologans Cafe, with as seeming Christian leaning when it seems so many don’t have a grasp of the basic tenants of Christianity. This is basic: perfect love casts out fear, judge not lest ye be judged, love your neighbor, love your enemy.
What bible do you read?
don’t they do the same thing to our people overseas, including imprisoning civilians and beating(or worse) beheading them? and you guys make it sound as if we’re imprisoning just anyone. these guys were probably thrown in gitmo for a reason. After all, it actually costs money to detain people, so it’s either probable cause, or the US justs like to screw with people. And despite popular opinion, Bush isn’t that fucked up to do that.
yet at the same time, we can’t do that to just any suspected terrorist. because then we’ll have another bad case of mccarthyism, and i would not at all have a fun time being blacklisted. so the best solution would be to make sure that people go through a court containing a jury of their peers (sound familiar?) to determine what the true intent is.
Sure, we do that all the time in the States.
Yes, but very few rights. We as citizens might find ourselves in a group of terrorists sometime, and need to explain in court our part in a plan that we may not have had anything to do in the planning of the scheme, but need to talk about it, you know what I mean? I believe that would mean documentation of it all, temporary protection, and close watch on that person. Testing for terrorist attitudes and political aspirations are also necessary. Mental institutions have it down to a science. Moussoui was from a mental institution: Oregon State Hospital, where I he was known as Steve Smith, in the early 1970′s. I believe he was a terrorist wanna-be in the group of 911 suicide murderers, and was shunned by the rest, so that he would not botch the deal. He was given no place with them. He was considered ”nuts”. He should be hospitalized. How could he reveal the information, ahead of time? ”They” would put him in, again, for observation, and ruin his “newest life-style”. Really!