August 21, 2006
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Woman Teachers
I was sent a posting idea via the new messages feature by BatesCityBabes. It was an article in the associate press. Let me just reprint the article:
“Church Fires Teacher for Being Woman
By Associated Press
WATERTOWN, N.Y. – The minister of a church that dismissed a female Sunday School teacher after adopting what it called a literal interpretation of the Bible says a woman can perform any job _ outside of the church.
The First Baptist Church dismissed Mary Lambert on Aug. 9 with a letter explaining that the church had adopted an interpretation that prohibits women from teaching men. She had taught there for 54 years.
The letter quoted the first epistle to Timothy: “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.”
The Rev. Timothy LaBouf, who also serves on the Watertown City Council, issued a statement saying his stance against women teaching men in Sunday school would not affect his decisions as a city leader in Watertown, where all five members of the council are men but the city manager who runs the city’s day-to-day operations is a woman.
“I believe that a woman can perform any job and fulfill any responsibility that she desires to” outside of the church, LaBouf wrote Saturday.
Mayor Jeffrey Graham, however, was bothered by the reasons given Lambert’s dismissal.
“If what’s said in that letter reflects the councilman’s views, those are disturbing remarks in this day and age,” Graham said. “Maybe they wouldn’t have been disturbing 500 years ago, but they are now.”
Lambert has publicly criticized the decision, but the church did not publicly address the matter until Saturday, a day after its board met.
In a statement, the board said other issues were behind Lambert’s dismissal, but it did not say what they were.”
Should a woman in the church be able to teach in a position over a man?
Comments (178)
FIRST!!
according to my church-no.
according to me? dunno…not that biblically educated, but i can never come up w/a good reason why not
No. Women should also stay in the kitchen, be silent, bear 12 children to their husbands, conceive said children efficiently in the missionary position, wear corsets, do everything possible to please their men, and allow themselves to be beaten every day except Sunday without a whisper of complaint.
Good God… what is this country coming to, if women don’t know their place and morals anymore?!
o.o
uhh yeah this is america not some ideal christian wonder land.
besides, things like this are enough to turn people atheist.
Their Sunday school teachers were paid?!? I’m teaching in the wrong denomination. Just kidding.
I teach middle schoolers, but in our denomination women don’t teach men’s Sunday school. . .A husband and wife, yes. But not a woman, unless it’s a women’s class (or children’s).
I have come to believe that women may teach over men in the church if a man is teaching with her or “supporting her” (so to speak) by being present at the time of teaching. Perferably that man being her husband. If it can’t be her husband (for reasons like, she doesn’t have one) then an elder of the church who would be able to confront her if a problem arose.
If she was able to give birth to “The Son of God” and raise him then yea she should be able to be in a postion to teach him!
this is ridiculious…of course…what is this, the twenties??
if you ask me, they were just looking for a reason to fire her…thats sad.
of course
and why did it take them 54 years to fire her, if that’s what they believe?
yes
yes.
uh YEAH
if we give birth to them
we can sure as hell teach them
Not in the sense of wielding authority.
*sigh* that’s not what that Bible verse meant. They took that completely out of context. The only reason he said that was because the woman he was talking about had not been Christians very long, and he was just saying that they should not be allowed to teach because they were new Christians. Also note that he said that the best teachers in the world were woman later on, and that his apprentice, Timothy, was raised mostly by his mother and grandmother, and that Paul deeply respected and admired them. Take the entire Bible, not just one verse. I mean, there is the Psalm that says “There is no God” but if you look at the whole passage it says “A fool in his heart says there is no God.” WAKE UP HERE PEOPLE.
Nice can of worms, Dan. I had this heated debate last week. You are a week behind the times, my friend.
I think it is ridiculous to say that anyone can’t do something because of their gender. That’s nonsense.
Women should teach, women should preach, women should lead. End of story.
hell yes! of course they should and they can!
Of course; that’s ridiculous of men to do everything and have everything.
<33 Kimmy
no
This is ridiculous. Women are just as capable, and thus should be just as respected in positions of teaching.
The Bible gives clear guidelines that say that women are not to be pastors, or teachers over men. I know that this may sound sexist, but it isn’t. God loves women and men alike, but he established guidelines for leadership within the church.
I don’t agree with his interpretation of Scripture, or his decision to fire the woman. However, it would be far more dangerous for him to lose his city job because of his personal religious views – as long as those views do not affect his interaction with women on the job. If they do, then of course that is another matter.
Yes!!
Yes
definitely. if the women weren’t on top of things in my church, nothing would ever get done. ;o)
Absolutely not. Not because women are in any way inferior, but because God sets the rules. It’s God’s church, he makes the rules, and most Christian ladies are fine with it.
oh yeah, and how come we can’t have a teaching position over men, but we have to raise them?
A strict interpretation provides that women can not teach men. It does not say that women can not teach children. In my church almost all the Sunday School teachers for children are women. One adult class of women is taught by a woman. And the mixed adult class is taught by a man.
I have to agree with rvl1978 it sounds sexist but thats what the bible says and its inspired by God himself so it applys then now and forever belive it or not but that doesnt mean that women cant have leadership outside church
Plain and simple, the Church has nothing to do with equal rights in this country. If we followed everything every church has said in this country, we’d be that they call a theocracy. We are a representative democracy. According our rights, women are equal to men. If the church is allowed to make no decisions as such, then why don’t we start up that whole inability to vote for them. Hell, take it from the African-Americans while you’re at it. Sorry, let me use a term you’d understand: coloreds.
The church doesn’t designate, the government does. In short, that release of position was illegal.
As many have said, yes, woman are just as capable humanly speaking….BUT God has established guidelines that show us that capability aside, woman aren’t to teach/preach men within the church. For those who say otherwise, or that the verse was taken out of context, I challenge you to read the New Testiment and then answer a few questions: Is God Sexist? And does God establish rules that say a woman shouldn’t teach/preach over men?
Here in the U.S. we have rules for leadership, does that mean that we are discriminatory against young people? To be the President of the U.S., an individual has to be at least 35 years of age and must have been born here in the U.S. I do not believe the founding fathers were xenaphobes, and I don’t believe that they hated 33 or 34 year old men and woman. However they established guidelines for leadership.
The founding fathers were sinful, human beings. God on the other hand is perfect, omnicient and loves all individuals. However he has standards that he established and while we may not always know the exact reason why he set up such standards, this side of heaven, we are called to be obedient and follow his guidelines set up in his infalable scripture.
YES!
Grr, that makes me so mad!
“I think it is ridiculous to say that anyone can’t do something because of their gender.”
Actually, the reason given is not “because of their gender” — rather its because of their position in a chain of command that God established. Its not a hard concept. Subordinates in the chain of command are not to wield authority over superiors in the chain of command. Privates do not issue orders to sergeants. The body of Christ (the church) does not give orders to Jesus (the head). Why is that so offensive when it is applied to the chain of command that God established between men and women in the church?
It is not demeaning when God makes men subordinate to Jesus Christ. Why should it be demeaning when God makes women subordinate to men in the church?
this makes me irritated.
i dont feel i should respond.
common sense. yes.
Yes, women have wisdom to share just as much as men do.
Being a conservative liberal (seriously) I have to agree & disagree. I do not think women should teach or rule over men, HOWEVER, I DO think that they are fit to teach ALL children, and they are still entitled to privately discuss matters & opinions with their spouse. Being a woman, I had a hard time with this myself, but in order to honor God & His Word as infalliable, one must either accept what He says, or pray that His Word is being translated correctly. Also, sometimes it is necessary to ask for guidance in how literally the passage should be taken. Ultimately, when in doubt, ask & ye shall receive.
I’ve often wondered about the practical application of that verse. I tend to agree with the way my church runs things: only men can be ordained as ministers, but a lot of the Sunday School teachers, as well as the (paid) director of the children’s department, are women. Most notably, I think the position of director of the children’s department is better suited to a woman than a man, despite the fact that it is a directoral position.
In any case, I think churches that do this kind of thing are trading legalism for effectiveness, and are failing to fulfill their primary purpose of pointing to Christ because they get bogged down by the rules. They forget that this was the problem with the Pharisees, whom Jesus openly opposed.
To all the people who are saying “what is this, 1922?”, may I simply point out that any truth, no matter what it is, stays true through the years and social changes, no matter how unpopular it gets. The year isn’t a great argument to use to invalidate a belief.
Having said that, I don’t have an opinion. I need to know more about it first.
Hell yes!!
Candy
I really don’t get how we even give this silly argument consideration. We all KNOW that women can perform most tasks put to them, just as men can do most tasks. There is of course the common sense of particular chores that one gender can do and the other simply cannot. So why are we wasting time with a text that’s outdated by 100 years, and 1900 years too late to fix the problems?
’nuff said….
yes.
this was actually my topic i discussed when it was my turn to give a sermon for our club121 at school.
if women cant teach men, men shouldnt teach women.
my talk was based around that verse in Timothy. none of the girls agreed with it.
“If what’s said in that letter reflects the councilman’s views, those are disturbing remarks in this day and age,” Graham said. “Maybe they wouldn’t have been disturbing 500 years ago, but they are now.”
The Bible does not change
Bible says No….to women teaching MEN. she can teach children and other women though.
Since the “bible” is a bunch of Roman imerialistic bullshiite…and i’m talking “new” testament…who gives a _____
Their Sunday school teachers were paid?!? I’m teaching in the wrong denomination.
Posted 8/21/2006 at 2:08 PM by Anothermadhousewife
Yea. They don’t pay me, either.
there is a diference between “equality” and “sameness” This pastor has a lot more guts than most pastors I know. My hat’s off to him for enforcing in his Church what the Bible says, and what the Church has decided on.
I’ve been looking for good reasons to convert from Christianity to just about anything else. Here’s one. Thanks, Dan!
My T-shirt says it all …. “A wise man once said….I don’t know, go ask a woman.” <3Rachel
I agree with RvL1978. Our culture doesn’t like it, but that’s the way it is. And I like it that way.
absolutely
The two-facedness of the “reverend” disgusts me. You can’t be one person on the pulpit and another person on the council.
Regardless of whether it was right or not, the Mayor should keep his nose out of the matter. I love how we scream seperation of church and state until mixing is detrimental to the church.
In answer to your question, it’s an often confused verse, and there seems to be a lot of cultural context to it. Remember biblical teachings involve respect for culture and laws, and that was part of the culture and laws of the time.
I have yet to see solid evidence against female church teachers, and am somewhat undecided on the issue. Seems a bit grey.
Absolutely.
[ariana]
I feel so unqualified when trying to refute positions like this, but it seems logical to me that this rule imposed by St. Paul is a reflection of the times. It is not reflected in the way Jesus interacted with women and men. I think the most qualified and best able person should teach. At times gender will effect that, but not as a general rule.
Not in the church. In the home women should be allowed to teach over men. In fact, Paul was taught by some women [I forget where] in private one time. There are all kinds of accounts of women teaching in privacy, but not one single account of women teaching in the church.
Yes, yes, yes, yes. I feel extremely strongly on this point, and I don’t buy that whole “there are clear guidelines in the Bible” thing. What about Deborah? She was a priestess and a prophetess and guess what? She led men, and they listened to her! It’s in the Old Testament-look it up. (Not you personally, Dan, I’m just saying
) The denomination I grew up in ordains women as pastors and I see nothing wrong with that. Jesus’s core group of friends included women, something that was completely radical for that time. Oh goodness. All riled up. I need to find a man to yell at. 
hm..i’m not too bibically educated but I don’t see why women shouldn’t be allowed the oppurtunity to teach.
Since when do you post news articles from where I live!? lol – You gotta know how small Watertown, NY is – it tends to be very old fashion when it comes to things like this. This may look or seem like just a religious belief – but I have to say I also think it’s just the way a lot of people around here are raised and the way they live their lives. I grew up in a much smaller version of Watertown, and the people around here remind me alot of what my grandfather used to be like. He was a teacher and a farmer he didn’t think women should go to college – and that they should only work at home – cooking, cleaning, raising the kids, and doing their share of the farm work.. He agreed to send my mom to college for one year after she argued over and over with him. She ended up cramming 2 years into one just so she could get a degree. So, honestly I believe that the Church and Rev. Labouf are just interpreting the bible in ways in which they were raised – and not necessarily interpreting it in a religious way. Plus these damn city council members are all old farts who never want to change anything out of their comfort-zone.
the bible says no, so then no. sure they are capable, but the bible says so
the word stands
as long as they had communicated that BEFORE her being hired. They changed the policy and she already was teaching they should have no justification for her firing. She should have every right to sue for discrimination…
“It is not demeaning when God makes men subordinate to Jesus Christ. Why should it be demeaning when God makes women subordinate to men in the church?”
I’ll tell you why. Men are not equal in any way to Christ however, men and women are equal. This is why I question the bible. It is sexist. to say we can’t teach men is ridiculous. This is why men had the audacity to think they “owned” thier wives and children back in the day. Reading the bible makes men think women are not equal but are to be lead. Really? Well then why are so many children being raised ( and raised to be productive) by single women? How can she teach her son to be a man without one being present in the home? I’ll tell you why…because we are capable and can be leaders of all. So much to say ….it makes me mad….sexist.
If the bible says something’s not okay, then you shouldn’t be doing it in church!
Now whether it actually says that women can’t teach men I don’t know; I haven’t gotten around to reading it.
Ever since I’ve started studying to be a pastor, I’ve debated this issue many times…God calls whoever He wants to do whatever He wants…why should we questions His sovreignty over something as trivial as gender?
Yes.
i think that’s crazy, my mom’s a sunday school teacher and i’ve never heard anyone say anything about the fact that because she’s a woman, she can’t teach.
It’s misguided to ask a question like this in a forum where a large percentage of responders do not believe in the authority of the Christian Bible.
70!!! yes!hehe
I agree with chantyshira. You put it perfectly.
yes she should
I need to research that Biblically. I’ve always thought women should be able to teach men but I agree Biblically that men do have leadership over women. My grandmother preaches in the church occasionally but I’m pretty sure she has to have permission. Ok, my question is, What’s wrong with it? is it a tricky question…yeah…but I really want to know. Honestly…straight out. Why is the order put that way?
who gives a rats ass
*She
Of course!!! thats stupid
xX-Nicole-Xx
Twisting the Gospel to match your own warped views…I don’t know about that. It’s ridiculous to assume that a woman or anyone else for that matter couldn’t teach a man something. Even children teach us everyday. Didn’t Saul say that children would confuse the learned? I think people who think that need to read it in it’s context and not just read one verse and think that they know what he was saying. THAT is the problem with religion in my opinion. They have Pastor Bob, or Bishop Johnson, or Reverend Smith throw out little tidbits of information and everyone sits there like little baby birds waiting for momma to shove anything in their mouths without question. Jeez people…why not read it for yourself and try to have the Lord guide you and instruct YOU, and not limit yourself to what other people interpret?
In the restrictive world of christianity and catholic schools, I could understand this. Considering men are “dominant” I could support this guy’s decision, however, her longstanding loyalty and position as a teacher should not have been ignored at this point. Wisdom has obviously been earned in 54 years.
RvL1978 said basically everything that i was gonna. and im not a “sexist man” trying to beat down the women because i want controll over everything, infact im not a man at all. I AM A WOMAN!!!! I am a female that is saying all of these things. It says in the Bible that women should not be preachers over men. Now little boys (like about middle school age) i think that is ok for a woman to teach them.
This isnt just my personal opinion, its Gods rules. If you all have a problem with it, maybe you should go talk to Him about it!
yes, we have had several debates about this is youth group. i believe that this falls under the category of (what we discussed in bible last year as) time related issues. Like women not showing their hair or that stoning is still an acceptable form of punishment. It was a cultural issue of that time period and does not apply in the same way today.
Roman’s 12:6-8 “We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.”
AMEN
most definitely
there’s a reason 2 is the perfect number in many religions. men and women should do all things together, so no that’s idiotic women can do anything they want, as long as men too are willing to do that.
its not a women’s place
-katlin-
yes…the less men there are in churches, the less molestations there will be lmao
Yes.
Yes! and I’m Muslim thank goodness!!!
I mean no disrespect to any religion here but…
Any faith has to grow and change with the people. I firmly believe that holding on to sexist ideals will drive people away from the church and/or faith. It doesn’t require one to “let go” of morality to respect a woman’s role in the church.
The bible gives clear instructions on alot of things that christianity has tossed. Last time I checked, christians eat pork and shellfish. Heck just read Leviticus for an entire list of things christianity has tossed.
I go to a conservative church and we have women teaching men!!!They are under the authority of the church leadership.
O…K. I should remind you that a “women” was the first preacher. Mary Magdalene was the first to announce to Jesus disciples that Jesus had risen. Hence spreading the “good news”.
why the hell not? People take the bible literally and they automatically step on toes and start stupid stuff.
Nope, never as a single woman. Maybe as a husband-wife team, in a supportive role.
And just because its an old rule, if its the Bible and you want to obey it, its rules apply no matter when or where.
My mom is a church minister. (United Methodist) What’s wrong with that? in my opinion – nothing. If a persons personal beliefs are that women shouldn’t be in churches, pick one that doesn’t allow it. But don’t expect others to follow your beliefs.
It also says in the bible that if a woman attends church without covering her head, we can stone her. Wouldn’t that be fun?
grown adult men–no.
boys and young teenagers–absolutely.
God didn’t write the Bible. A bunch of sexist, polygamist males did.
More of a reason why women should teach over men, to right all the fucking wrongs from 2,000 years ago.
Fuckin’ religion. I hate goddamned religion.
And to everyone saying that the rule applies because it’s in the Bible… the Bible also says that you should be stoned for wearing a cloth of two different fabrics.
So, if you own a shirt that is a poly-cotton blend go stand in the town square while the rest of us gather up some rocks!
Galatians 3:28 “There is neither Greek nor Jew, slave nor freeman, male nor female, we are all one in Christ Jesus”
The order may be wrong but that’s pretty much it. That one piece of scripture can justify feminism, interracial marriage, homosexual marriage, and a load of other things that either now or at some time were a “sin” or inconventional.
for those people who think its a time realatd issue:
it has noting to do with the times in which it was written. it is the inspired word of God set out for all generations, not just for that particular culture.
we can’t just pick and choose of what to believe in the bible. if we are able to do that, then why don’t we just take out the issue of homosexuality from the bible? why not even take the whole issue of sin out? It was put there for a reason, for us to follow and to submit to. Who are we to even question the perfect Word of God?
In one of Paul’s letters (Eph. 4:5), he talks a bout the ONE faith, not A faith, not any faith that you can just pick out of any whim of our desire. it is the one and only faith that Jesus has set before us.
i sick of people liek this making christians look like he-man woman haters. this should have his balls grinded off with a belt sander.
Posted 8/21/2006 at 2:15 PM by shadow12613
hahaha- well said.
women are no better and no worse than men. Both should teach.
as the above person said earler, this verse IS taken out of context. Paul is telling timothy what he thinks personally (and even just saying that would be taken out of context, b/c the people paul is talking about are the poeple that timothy is going to have to deal with, and the area he was going to was known for it’s rowdy women).
that said: yes. A woman has just as many teaching priviliges as a man, but no one is ever a perfect teacher.
Instead of focusing on whether the teacher is man or woman perhaps we should hear about what they are teaching.
And no women should not be stopped from teaching just because they are women. I totally agree that the Bible says that they shouldn’t which shows that it is the word of man not God. Last time I checked God spoke to women and men both.
What I find ironic is that this minister states its okay for women to teach and have active roles outside of the church but not in the church because the truth (the Bible) says they cannot. It is ironic because ministers of Judeo-Christianity claim that Truth is absolute yet say that this ultimate truth is relative. I believe it is called hypocrisy or false prophecy. Not sure, maybe we should find a Sunday school teacher.
Should that even be a question!?
Of course a woman should be able to have the same job position as a man. Then again, this is said with a 21st century mindset. But shouldn’t the church be keeping up with the times, for its own sake?
Of course, the theological nuance is a little too much for most churches like those in this article, as it would be for most who seem to be blathering their opinions all over this page, but this is the biblical problem: Paul told Timothy women shouldn’t teach, but should remain silent. Yet Paul wrote to the Corinthians that “When a woman prophesies [in the context of a church gathering; i.e. teaching/speaking for the Lord to men] she should do it [thus and so].” So Paul didn’t seem to have a hard-line, one-size-fits-all position on this. It was situational. Thus, for any church or Christian to say “we’re just doing what the Bible says” means they really aren’t – they are doing what they’ve decided the Bible says. In my opinion, since Paul goes both ways, that inherently means it is appropriate for women to teach/preach/lead/etc. in all areas, except in certain missional situations where it would be [for the moment] too offensive to the locals.
This doesn’t mean that all scripture is contextual/situational. There are some truths that are supported from Genesis to Revelation, and these the church does well to keep as Truth. This one [women teaching] isn’t one of those.
Priscilla and Aquilla taught Apollos; whom I think is the writer of the book of Hebrews. This is Biblical proof that women can teach men.
Annie Armstrong and Lottie Moon are examples of female missionaries that worked autonomously abroad and taught men, Baptists laud them, but wouldn’t allow them to preach on Sundays.
I disagree with my church. My church states women can not be in a position of leadership over men. They also divide groups according to gender. I am too post-modern for my church.
I read this article and couldn’t believe it… I’m glad I’m in the United Methodist Church where woman are equal to men in leadership roles.
For our church, women don’t lead classes unless those classes are formed solely of other women, or of children.
It is in the Bible that women shouldn’t be pastors. I don’t like that, necessarily, but whatever. That’s not my point. My point is that a Sunday school teacher is not like a pastor in the sense that would possibly prohibit them from being pastors. A Sunday school teacher is not a “teacher over men”, a Sunday school is a teacher over a bunch of kids. The people that fired her are full of BS.
I have worked as a paid staff member of a church just so you know. I ask this question: WHERE in the BIBLE does it SAY, “Only men may serve me?” I have never gotten an answer. I have found that people/pastors frequently use portions of the Bible out of context all the time to have things their way.
Reason #58,585,822 I left the church. I don’t know how my mother tolerates this, but she does.
Paul can kiss my ass, before I hit him over his chauvanistic, arrogant, self-righteous head with a huge Bible.
It’s funny how Christians spend soooo much time arguing over the letters Paul wrote, and yet rarely (if ever) talk about Jesus. They like to enforce the laws from Paul’s letters, and the Old Testament rules about homosexuality and adultery…yet not one of them ever talks about the Sermon on the Mount.
People say “Homosexuality is an abomination to god!” and “Women should stay silent!” left and right…yet always seem to keep quiet about “Blessed are the peacemakers, blessed are the poor, blessed are the meek; for they shall inherit the Earth.”
But nah…they don’t like to shout things out that JESUS HIMSELF said explicitly. But god, they sure do love Paul and Moses and the other OT Writers.
Yes. The “Biblical” guidelines about women over men are purely cultural. Women have every right in society and church to be in a position over men. Both sexes were created in the image of God and in Christ there is neither male nor female.
I agree with butterflybeth89. Though I’ve gone to some rather conservative churches in my lifetime, none has forbade women from teaching Bible classes. That’s one of the most ridiculous, non-Biblical, sexist things I’ve heard in a while.
Yes
what’s so bad about a women teaching??!
Yes I think they should be. They are more then capable enought to so why not
In my opinon, a woman is able to teach in a church, as long as there aren’t grown men in the audience. If she teaches babies-high school that is okay. If she teaches an all ladies class, that’s fine, just not with grown men in the class.
the only positions within a church that i think God prohibits women being in are elders and pastors. they can be sunday school teachers, be on the worship team, or anything like that, but not in any position of teaching leadership. at least thats my interpretation of the Bible.
I say hell yes. Or, if I’m in church, heck yeah.
In my denomination, single-sex classes are taught by a member of that sex. Mixed classes may be taught by either a woman or a man.
of course
ericvandermolen
how is the bible the perfect “word of god” if it was written by people
NO! Women are to be seen not heard. They belong in the kitchen!
I think this is an issue that the church should be able to take care of regardless of public or governmental opinion. Besides, doesn’t the constitution say that it forbids the government to even litigate this kindof stuff? People have almost have a harder time takeing “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” as they do “Women should be silent in the church.” Please, America, just let old, dead people say what they mean and not twist things to your own opinions.
Oh… “how is the Bible the perfect ‘Word of God’ if it is written by people”? That is an interesting question. If you go to the Bible, you’ll find that it says that all the stuff in there was written by guys that were directed by God (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:21). In other words, the men had a part in writing it, puttin in their own style and wording, but God was almost the editor, in a way. (Question was raised by Schecter426)
If you don’t believe God can do this, then you don’t believe in God. Couldn’t the God Who created the earth and everything in it use men to write something as simple as a book?
Abso-friggin-lutely.
I see the preacher as a hypocrite. He says his interpretation is “literal,” but that verse doesn’t say “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man in church, but anywhere else is fine.”
And, by the way, I don’t agree with him or my “special” edition to that Scripture.
I’m with Mayor Jeffrey Graham. In this day and age, yes yes yes.
Hell yes. How else would men learn any ACCURATE information?
Eric Vandermolen said:
for those people who think its a time realatd issue:
it has noting to do with the times in which it was written. it is the inspired word of God set out for all generations, not just for that particular culture.
we can’t just pick and choose of what to believe in the bible. if we are able to do that, then why don’t we just take out the issue of homosexuality from the bible? why not even take the whole issue of sin out? It was put there for a reason, for us to follow and to submit to. Who are we to even question the perfect Word of God?
In one of Paul’s letters (Eph. 4:5), he talks a bout the ONE faith, not A faith, not any faith that you can just pick out of any whim of our desire. it is the one and only faith that Jesus has set before us.
Ok, um, but maybe nobody ever informed you of the actual history of the bible, and the version you read before you. Language for one, is a funny thing, and the bible has been interpreted through and from many languages. Things that were originally written in the original hebrew texts, are not the same thing that you read today in some cases. If you’ve ever learned another language you realize that sometimes, things just don’t “translate”
My other point, is that different societies have actually altered the bible, to fit thier needs and the version you have today is much different from the bible when it first started.
and Third-I notice you are high school age, and probably haven’t been introduced to alot of geographical and historical concepts that would allow you to understand that many of the “laws” of the bible, actually applyed to the agricultural societies of those times. Who do you know sacrifices a cow and offers it to his nieghbor?
I’m not saying theres anything wrong about believing in what the bible has to say…it’s just that you can’t take everything in the bible literally, because, those really were different times. If what you say is true, well, than we should still be an agricultural society, and that we are not.
Depends on who is more effective at their job… if a man truly can do it better, the woman should not be given the job just to prove something. If the woman is more effective, then her sex shouldn’t hold her back either.
Yes, the Bible does not like women being in leadership positions, but I really don’t feel it’s my place to judge something like that. I just think that women and men should learn they are different, with different purposes and mindsets, but still equal. Whether that means a woman should lead a congregation, I really am not sure.
according to my church, I guess they do that…
my preference is that if God has called anyone to be a minister, then
they should be a minister,
whether woman or man.
Bittersunday is exactly right.
When people quit gossiping and hating within the church ( basic stuff), then let’s worry about Paul’s control freak tendencies and doctorines( Paul and I would not have liked each other).
butterflybeth89
is very correct
If you’re a woman and want to teach in church,
GO AHEAD
haha. i saw that in the news today and thought. “I wonder if theologian will post about this.” and you did!
Funny how in our homes, the woman is the main “teacher”, mainly because dad is working outside the home, but even when both parents work outside… and that is accepted. In our schools, the majority of teachers are women… and that is accepted. Put a woman in a church setting and suddenly she is an idiot and lesser than men.
Utterly stupid, ridiculous, and most definitely NOT a part of God’s plan.
yes and no, that verse was ery much taken out of context… they arent bright…. bummer…. im not going to get into it… too involved to do right now, btu if asnyone is that curious or cares that much about my opinion on it… message me… ttyl
john
Hell, yes!!
Of course they should be allowed. Bloody hell. This is one of those things that makes me disgusted with religion….
This is what I find so disturbing about Christianity in America. In many cases, when it comes down to the bottom line people who SAY they live by the law of the LAND, which is the constitution, but their actions show that many wish America was a Christian theocracy. Follow the laws of the bible to a T? People lambast Muslims for being militant, but at the same time with the hypocrisy that is smoke and mirrors in the god fearing USA we edge closer and closer to…
The arrogance of the righteous.
Of ANY religion. That Pastor is an idiot and probably has a small penis and is impotent because of shame for that and his closeted homosexuality.
Wow, it really surprised me how many people said no. I hope people don’t read this and get a bad impression of all Christians. The Catholic Christian church is the first christian church and they allow woman to teach religion classes.
That would be men not boys. Hell they didn’t even get that right
Of course!
Oh My GOD, WHY is this an issue?!? Women are not stupid! Women are not second class citizens! Women are worthy of respect! This sort of shit makes me so MAD. It’s also one of the things about religion that desperately pisses me off (as well as people who claim to believe the Bible word for word, seemingly unaware that that statement automatically makes them bigoted mysoginists… but that’s another issue).
In a word, YES. Women should be able to teach men. Men should be able to teach women. God made us all with BRAINS that are intelligent, so that we would USE them. Jesus H. Christ….
I think “Church” meant the congregation, as in Adult Sunday School. Do you think men would be good Sunday School teachers that would help nurture the children before they are able to go into the youth group? I doubt it.
OF COURSE WOMEN SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO HAVE HIGHER CHURCH AUTHORITY OVER MEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To say otherwise is racist and ridiculous!!! If the Bible says that men are better than women, then whoever put that in it was also racist and very wrong. God is not racist, and to say that He is is making a mockery of religion, not following it.
There is so much hypocrisy about this issue! The Bible says women can’t teach in Church. It doesn’t say they can teach Sunday school but not teach as a pastor or they can teach some classes but not others or teenagers but not grown men. You have to believe that the whole command is cultural (and no longer applies) or believe it still applies. If you believe it still applies don’t make excesses for allowing a woman to teach one thing but not the other. That’s ridiculous.
why the hell not?
I agree with RvL1978 said. The Bible is clear on its stance on women in the church. I’d like to ask why whenever “outside of church” is mentioned it appears outside of the woman’s quotes.
I personally believe that women should not be pastors, and not have authority over men regarding church matters. This is not to say that women are any less intelligent or have any less ability in these matters. Women are able to perform many tasks, and some better than men. It’s just a matter of following what the Bible says, and unless there are more specifics about what’s going on in that church, I don’t tend to agree with their decision. I would agree with the church only if she was teaching the class to adults. If it was a Sunday school with school-aged children, there shouldn’t be a problem.
It’s their church they can do whatever they want, and if women so choose to continue attending that specific church, then it’s their decision. Personally I don’t care what that church does, as long as it stays there and doesn’t become the way of society.
This is stupid. Women teach men things all the time. Why would being in the church be any different? That passage was taken out of context. Back in the time period it was written in, women weren’t even allowed to sit with the men in the “synagog.” (spell checker please)
You see female leaders/ministers in the church all the time. I think that he’s just old and regressing.
Yes.
Holy crap.
I second butterflybeth89. Props to her!
I’ve given this a lot of thought in the past, and I think that what Paul said might have (might have!) had more to do with the customs of the day. The Bible also says that women should not wear men’s clothes, yet women wear jeans today. What did the original greek mean when Paul said “teach”? Is it possible that there might be more to the instruction, and it’s been lost in the translation? I’ve always associated it with spiritual authority, like leadership. I think that women should teach in the church. I do not think that women should lead the church.
Y’know, I’d have to see the Bible verse- but I think they are taking it a bit out of context. The big over all message of the Bible is timeless- that God loves us all. But I think some ideas were more for that time period.
The Bible was written by a man, not God.
No. Now, before you start thinking I’m sexist, let’s look at a few verses. I Corinthians 11:3, I Corinthians 11:7, *I Corinthians 14:34* (that’s a major one), Ephesians 5:24, *I Timothy 2:11*, I Peter 3:1, and I Peter 3:5. Now, those are all of the verses dealing with women not teaching in the church, and submitting to her husband. And for all of you who say, “So, you mean that a man can beat his wife, but she has to submit to him?”, that is not what it says. If you notice, the ones that say that a wife must submit to her husband also commands the husband to love her like Christ loved the church, meaning, he should be willing to give his life for her. Greater love has no man than this, that he should lay his life down for his friends. So, the woman is commanded to submit to the man, and the man is commanded to love her more than himself. If a woman sees that a man is teaching something wrong, she should take him into privacy and show him the truth. This is shown through the Bible in Acts 18:25-26 (25 is necessary to understand why verse 26 happened. Of course, you should always read everything around a verse to keep it in context…), with Aquila (a man) and Priscilla (his wife). My piece is done.
Summer
Uh.. yeah! If not, that would be totally sexist.
Like Butterflybeth89 said…
This verse was totally taken out of context.
I don’t see anything wrong with women teaching, or preaching, and personally I don’t think God does either. Has no one read the book of Judges in the Bible? God’s people were lead by a woman – Deborah – does this mean nothing?
I’m concerned by the mayor’s comments. Setting intended controvertial issue aside, no government agency should influence the policies no matter how unpopular of any place of worship. Isn’t freedom of religion one of the things that makes this country ‘good’? On the other hand, this doesn’t mean that one’s religious views aren’t protected from being unpopular which is something I think people tend to forget (along with freedom of speech not meaning you can say whatever the heck you want and people can’t get po’ed at you for it).
Okay, back to the argument at hand. I’m personally a little more liberal in this area than most other Christians I’ve talked to. In *short* (keep in mind there’s a lot of reasons I’m not giving in consideration of space for what I’m saying), I feel a woman should be able to hold any position within the church. (except for groundskeeper)
yes
I don’t know what to say. I don’t believe a woman should be head of a church. But That doesn’t mean she can’t teach and reach others with the Lords love. I believe she can be maybe asst pastor or one of the elders. Have siminars..preach the gospel..Prophetess..But as main pastor? No. I agree with Rvl1978.
The Bible isn’t refering the issue of gender equality in 21st century America. The Bible says the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and so far I haven’t seen a whole lot of “wisdom” standing up against the teaching of the Bible. Does the Bible say women are inferior to men, or that they don’t have wisdom and are incapable? Start by reading Genesis 1 and see for yourself if God is sexist.
You’ll also notice that there were some undiclosed issues that lead to the fireing of this teacher. Who knows what they could’ve been, maybe she had molested a child. Do any of you know exactly what happened? That doesn’t mean this pastor is perfect, and doesn’t necessarily mean he was right in firing her. But wasn’t it interesting how someone mentioned his twofacedness in church and town leadership, when that’s exactly how politicians are today? Everyone wants political leaders to leave their faith and their beliefs at home and at church and live a different way in the public arena. It’s only when a Christian does this that people get out their double standard and start condeming and judging. Let’s go by what the Bible says and not on shallowly-based, emotional bias. And please remember, just because it’s in the news paper doesn’t mean that it’s true, or it happened like the press said it did. Peace.
P.S. I loved your insights Summernamsake
HELL YEAH!!! The bible was written by a men who after Christ died put it together, women are just as capable as men to read, interpret and teach the bible. All my Sunday school teachers were women.
I have a female pastor, and she wasn’t my “first”. EQUALITY bitches.
I think alot of people interpret the bible differently, and this causes controversy…my mom is CO-Pastor of the church with my father…ultimately, my father hears from God (so does my mother) but it is my FATHER that makes the final decision as head of the church. My mom is what Eve was to Adam, his Help Meet. I think that women can teach in the church, but everything that God does is in order…for example…even if the woman does teach in the church, there is almost ALWAYS a man over her. I’m not a bibical scholar or anything, but growing up a pentecostal church then switching to non-denominational, I’ve seen both sides of the argument…and based on revelations that God has given me about this subject, this is what I believe.
This is fucking ridiculous. How can anyone say that isn’t sexist? This points to a bigger issue: to take the Bible as the literal word of God is just plain gullible. Even if it was somehow magically written by God Himself, it was edited by patriarchs over the centuries. This pisses me off more than just about anything.
I don’t know.
It appears that the entire text of the article was not posted here. Reuters also reported the following:
“The board of the Watertown First Baptist Church said in a statement on its Web site that the scripture rules concerning women teaching men in a church setting had only played a small part in Lambert’s sacking.
‘Christian courtesy motivates us to refrain from making any public accusations against her,’ the board said.”
Perhaps there were other problems which led the church to consider the way she was teaching in the same way Paul considered the women teachers of whom Timothy was concerned about. Who knows, they’re not gossiping about it. I think this verse definitely needs to be looked at in context and not applied to every woman. There are obviously times when certain women (and men) shouldn’t teach. People shouldn’t take it so personally.
No. I concur with RvL1978 s comment.
Yes!!!!!!!! Those stupid sexist little buggers.
I belive like other’s here, that a woman should be able to teach men if a man is there to assist/support her. There are alot of problems in a church setting if just a woman taught a men’s class. Women should be able to teach a womans or children’s class. I have no problem with a woman co-pastoring a church.
Can of worms…basically the argument on both sides go something like this: Paul’s argument in 2 Tim. 3 is refering to the creation order of God or the results of the curse and fall in the garden i.e., Gal 3.28. Biblical feminists or “Equalitarians” would say that because Jesus reversed the curse in Genesis upon his death and resurrection, there should be no hierarchy between men and women in the church. “Complimentarians” or more conservatives would argue that both men and women were created equally but they have different functions or roles to play in God’s creation order. It’s just the way God made things to be orderly and Paul goes back to that similar idea in 2 Tim for orderliness in the church. There are respected scholars on both sides people like Gordon Fee would argue that 2 Tim., Ephesians, Corithians, etc. are ad hoc arguments; that they were unique situations for the church at the particular place. People like John Piper and Wayne Grudem would argue that God created man and woman to live harmoniously together equally in an orderly fashion but sin messed up the relationship and still does. But it wasn’t the result of the curse because God created order between man and women before sin entered into the world. —this is such a heated topic and we should approach it with a grain of salt….I for one have learned that there are much more bigger issues to be concerned about in this world; to not make it an issue and choose which battles are worth fightin for.
Yes.
The times they are a-changin’, and I think that the church should change, too, and give equal opportunities. It’s just like any form of descrimination, and couldn’t she take them to court?
I definitely would..
being from a church that recently has had a female pastor, a female Christian/Fellowship Education Director, and a female youth pastor (if anyone wonders, this being a United Methodist Church), i believe that gender does not matter in “big dude in robe” type positions… i think it depends soley on qualifications and their personal spiritual insight. As in, how well they can do their job or how well they’ve answered to their calling.
Oh, and did i also mention the District Superintendant of the Raritan Valley District of the NJ Greater Annual Conference of the United Methodist Church is also a female?
As far as the example that raised this question goes, i’m unsure of the valadity of the claim due to me hearing nothing more than a 45 second newsbrief about it, but i do belive that females should have the same rights as men as far as religious occupations go
hay wuzz up?? nothing much..
no u dont know me..
well talk to u later..
sharnell
that verse was refering to the city Paul (I think that’s who wrote it) was writing to. not to everyone
The Scriptures clearly say that women are not to teach or be in authority over men. I don’t think that it is because women are unable to teach, but because God established man to be over woman. Women are to be in submission- in order to bring glory to God.
The verse that I would assume to be in question is “I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness” 1. Timothy 2•12 Not a few of these other things people seem to be coming up with.
I think the idea that this can be taken literally is ridiculous. It was not written by God. It was written first by Paul, then edited through the years by hig-power folk as well as having true context meaning lost in language and time barriers. And during those oh so ancient times women were looked down upon. So naturally the idealogy of those living back then would follow sociteties beliefs.
This is not the 1920s and certainly not the 20s AD. Women should have equal rights. There is no reason for women to to be able to teach men. If they’re still learning the same lessons I see no problem. Times change. And to everyone saying that it is God’s will that women don’t teach men, shut up. Have you talked to God? Did you ask what He thinks? No, that’s what I thought. I don’t care if it is the Bible. God didn’t write it. For all we know, Paul was raving mad. And the dominance of men is no longer acceptable in this day and age.
Also, In 2. Timothy 3•16 is says “Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness” That to me seems to be the ok to make changes. When school textbooks are out of date they are updated. I think the Bible is incredibly out of date and by no means a stable source by which to make standards.
So to sum it all up…Yes, women should be able to teach over men even in church.
I think that is mean. Most womaen are smarter than men; so in answer to the question, yes
I think it sounds ridiculous. I might have to look further into this verse in the bible, but that does not sound like something God would want. Didn’t he place the woman judge Deborah over all of Israel even before Jesus was born?
of course.
Considering that all of my 8th grade teachers were women (expect of one male that was a student teacher) I think they are very capable. They taught everything until everyone got it. And I understand more and know more than most kids my age. (being 14)
At church, no.
The verse was talking about at church, in context, that is.
Rules are meant to be broken and bend.. so are the guidelines that God has written. Who say women can’t have power over men? Unless men think their not strong enough? Not competitive enough? Afraid that these women will step over their head? That traditional crap where woman belongs in the kitchen is getting too annoying.