October 27, 2006
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Waterboarding
Dick Cheney was in the news for mentioning “waterboarding” as a means for getting information out of terror suspects.
Waterboarding is given the following definition by Wikipedia: “Waterboarding is a type of torture used in coercive interrogations or for punishment. In modern practice it simulates drowning and produces a severe gag reflex, making the subject believe his or her death is imminent while ideally not causing permanent physical damage.”
Is waterboarding an acceptable means of getting information out of suspected terrorist?
Comments (131)
Sure why not. I say to make it more gruesome. Start taking off fingers.
Absolutely Not. Dick Cheney should only advocate techniques that his three heart attack body could tolerate. If it is good for others it must be good for him…
I don’t think any method of torture is acceptable.
It’s better than say, a potatoe peeler on the arm…or….HEavy grit disk sander on the back….or…ripping off pieces of skin with pliers….or…..cutting off fingers at each knuckle with bolt cutters…al of which I would employ if it was my job to get information.
It takes an evil nature to espouse torture, doesn’t it?
Terrify a terrorist? Now THAT’s a concept.
Sounds a little extreme…..
Torture…where is the love?
Our elite military forces are also put through waterboarding in their training so they will know exactly what it is like if they are ever captured and it is used on them.
So I say, do whatever it takes to get the info to save lives. I don’t see our enemies going soft and wringing their hands about what is torture and what is not. Is it torture to saw off someone’s head with a rusty knife in front of a video camera and then broadcasting it? Is that torture?
No
No
This pesky constituion says we aren’t supposed to have cruel or unusual punishment, and it was written by some pretty bright folks.
Dang. So close.
Ya Sure Ya Betcha………
I abhor the madness of war. I abhor the brutish nature that could consider such a thing reasonable.
I just watched Cold Mountain, so I might be just a tad emotional on this subject.
Shalom!
I think we do well to remember the last sentence… while ideally not causing permanent physical damage. We do well also to remember that the nature of TERRORISM, is to KILL people – usually INNOCENT people. So if a technique that causes no permanent physical harm is used to prevent murder, I think it might be worth looking into.
NO! we shouldnt even use torture cuz we wont always get the right info. gosh! stupid government.
why do we kill people to show that killing people is wrong????
i dont think its right that we make people think that they are gonna die. thats horrible and what if they do??? who takes the blame for that.
“oops looks like we got to find another one to torture.”
thats not how it should work.
heh, anyone who dissagrees with it sure don’t mind gettin’ bombed.
I wonder how noble we would all feel about this if it was not done and the lives that have been saved were not saved. This “torture” is done to a lot of the men in our armed forces as part of their training. It does no damage. But it has saved lives. So who wants to go up to the families of those whose lives have been saved and tell them it was not worth it?
I hate to say this, but sometimes torture is necessary. If it’s to cause them only present pain and scare them, then it’s better than beating them, shocking them, whatever. What are we supposed to do, ask nicely and hope someone eventually says something? I agree it’s wrong that innocent people with no information have to go through it, but it’s either some people get waterboarded or we get bombed.
And Kojo the constitution has no Bill of Rights for enemy combatants. It only deals with citizens of the USA
To add to what trunthepaige said… I have several family members that are policemen, and they all got peppersprayed in the eyes before they got their badges. My friend’s dad went through training where he ran through gas until he blacked out. If your kid does something wrong, you reprimand them. If you can give your kid a tap on the butt, are we supposed to do less than that to someone who might have terrorist information?
I watched a program last night on the History Channel about TORTURE – Past and Present and Waterboarding seems lame compared to past torture tactics.
sooooooooo I say it’s ok.
sure, if it saves the lives of others…
It’s terrible, and cowardly and wrong.
But that’s what war is– there is nothing noble or pure about harming another person. And we as Americans need to come to grips with that. The entire populace should weep when we send out our killing machine, and wail when they return. If we took away the ‘honor’ of killing for the country, perhaps we would finally understand the dread purpose of war–to protect ourself and our own no matter the cost. That’s what war is, the carrying through of our will to live and see our children live to the extreme.
That having been said, America should only wage war as a defensive act, and in that we should be vicious, ruthless and without care for human life. Torture, pain, mutilation–whatever you want to call it– should be just as much in our vocabulary as ‘taking a hill’. Because think about it– war should be reserved only to keep us alive when all ELSE has failed. Note that I didn’t say, “keep us comfortable”, “keep us Christian”, or even “keep us American”. No… keep us ALIVE. Because when it comes down to it, each person understands deep down that, aside from their own progeny, every other person on earth takes a lesser position when it comes to life and death.
So what Mr. Cheney is advocating IS torture. And IS inhumane (whatever that word means… last time I checked being ‘humane’ (in the sense of being of the set of creatures exhibiting the characteristics of being human) included millennia of raping, killing, and subjugating). However, that IS war– and people need to understand that. The extremist groups we see COMPLETELY understand that. They just take that terror on the offensive, and as such are terrible in their own right. However, if we are to go to ‘war’ then we MUST succeed. There can be no, ‘gentleman’s war’. Simply we must succeed in such a way that the opposition can have no HOPE of even partial success–they must be totally and utterly defeated so that we may live.
Evan.
No, absolutely NOT! This administration is way too much into torture-it needs to be stopped!
No. I don’t think it is acceptable.
Who cares what that fat bastard says, his party is going to lose the elections!
Can you say “lame duck”? I don’t care what lame ducks say.
I just don’t know what to say in response to that… We’d only be stooping to their levels, but at the same time… I guess they are trained to be tortured, so I wouldn’t know what good or bad the method would have…
( If your looking for another interesting article while you wait for theo’s next one, read my blog lol.)
When in course of war, let us be polite to our enemies…………………………….such a crock.
Give me a break………………..please.
We are at war. Get the information needed to protect our troops and our country. No sympathy here for terrorists.
Remember Robespiere, the guy during the Reign of Terror who believed that “the end justifies the means”?
“When fighting the monster, you must be careful not to become it.”
-Ben Franklin
Well, you’ve got two choices: either scare the living daylights out of a person to get information to save lives, or everyone weeps about the killer who was hit by authoritites. You can’t have one without the other. If the information is secure (ie. they really are terroist who are being tortured), then do you really want to protect they guy who’s trying to kill you and yours?
’nuff said….
no…thats cruel and unusual punishment.
FUCK NO!!! Not just a “no,” but a FUCK NO!!! Torture is torture and if this asswipe can’t see that, why is he in this job?
YES! War is not about being nice, sweet and fair. Our enemies would do far worse and have done far worse to prisoners of war. I say get the information any way ya can… I draw the line at rape, though…
Well… If we’re going to quote Mr. Franklin, perhaps we should look at other points of his:
“All wars are follies, very expensive and very mischievous ones.”–by Ben Franklin, the Revolutionary War leader.
“Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”–by Ben Franklin, the devout Christian.
Quoting, to me, has always seemed to try and give credence and validity to an argument without having to go to the trouble of justifying it yourself.
Evan.
hell no!
besides, when you are being tortured, you will say anything to stop the torture, and so all information obtained by such methods becomes immediately suspect.
we must never allow our official representatives to sink to using such methods to obtain information, or will will lose (if it has not already been lost) any credibility when we speak out about human rights abuses. that our government would sanction, let alone use, such methods sickens, horrifies, and disgusts me… i wish i could say it surprises me.
Torture methods? Consult my brother, he is a master.
No.
This is sick. This admin is crazy. When will these madmen be stopped?
That said, waterboarding at first sounded like a sport to me.
Waterboarding sounds more like something you do recreationally off the back of a boat.
as far as trunthepaige’s argument goes… my great aunt was blown up by terrorists. under no circumstances would i want torture used to find/punish her murderers. that would demean her life.
“an eye for an eye and an ear for an ear only makes the whole world blind and deaf” m.k.ghandi
revenge and retribution are not valid reasons for torture, and we know that information gathered under torture is unreliable. so why would we promote using something that violates our Constitution (you go, kyjo) even if its actual protections do not extend to the persons involved? it is our philosophy regarding the generic treatment of persons that is contained in that document, and we should not be violating it in regards to anyone.
No.
I think we’d be flipping out if other countries were taking anyone from our country and torturing them. And we don’t do this to our own citizens, so why is it acceptable to do it to another human being, “terrorist” or not. They should have the same rights as any other human being.
Anyone who supports torture should be regarded as a criminal danger to mankind. The world doesn’t need their brand of scum. It so sickens and disgusts me to know that our government does such things to people and much of the torture they do is for the fun of the interrogators, it’s not even to extract information. I don’t consider myself to be an American anymore because I don’t want to be associated in any way with those people. If that’s team U.S.A., I cannot be on it. I hope and pray that someday there will be a war crimes tribunal in which the perpetrators of these acts are brought to justice. In the mean time, the United States will continue to lead the world in wickedness and barbarity by example.
Hehehe!
I love how “some” of these people here are for Not having an abortions and yet Torture is A-OKAY!
Nice…
Uuugh!
XoxoxoX
Back to drinking coffee on a dark Friday.
These people are not neccessarily terrorists, first off, they’re merely suspected terrorists. Second of all, people being tortured will say anything simply to make it stop. It’s just not incredibly reliable, and it’s an embarassment to the country. Amazing how such “Christian” men like Bush are so ready to torture . . .
I think torture is wrong. Many terrorists are willing to die for their country… I dont think killing them.. or simulating death… will really do anything…
Plus… torture is just wrong..
no
i think that we as a society should be judged at how we treat “scum”
We boo-hoo a lot when americans get tortured, we talk about japanese atrocities in ww2 against american pow’s.
So why do we torture as well?
I dont think it tells the rest of the world how cool democracy is when we torture. We should be above that.
atleast not torturing like that.
I’m okay with torture that produces growing amounts of discomfort like lack of sleep, bad music, or standing somewhere too long, not fear of death
it doesn’t harm them.
all’s fair in love & war.
what happen if is they got the wrong person? that always scares me
If it’s a terrorist then torture’s too good for them.
Absolutely not. If it is described as a means of torture, than why is he even mentioning it? I thought America was above that way of gruesome behavior.
Obviously not.
I think it’s great that people actually feel compassion for the people that want all of us dead.
You can’t talk to these people, you can’t bargain, you can’t negotiate. Because all they want is you, me, and every other person in the US dead. And that’s why we’re at war.
Before they destroy something/somebody? No. After they destroy something/somebody? Probably not, but it’ll make somebody feel better if they know of something coming up that they can stop.
How ’bout we stop being arrogant bastards? The terrorists would probably leave us alone completely.
It’s not acceptable. Next thing you know, you’ll be waterboarded because you said something that sounded suspicious in that phone call to your uncle.
1984 anyone?
I know they aren’t citizens of the U.S., but cruel and unusual punishment much? It’s not acceptable, nor is any form of torture.
You know, I don’t think it’s morally acceptable. On the other hand, obtaining intelligence is CRITICAL to accomplishing our mission, and more importantly it will help save the lives of soldiers. So, as a soldier, this puts me in asort of moral bind. Which is the lesser of two evils? I don’t know. But I guess that if it comes down to some terrorist bastard getting roughed up and me and my buddies getting blown to smitherines, then I think the choice is obvious.
Hell yeah, they’re terrorist, wouldn’t you rather have them thinking their going to die so they talk, or would you rather have no torture at all and them torturing your family…hmm…torture the suspects. But I think they need to have a lot of proof to prove they are suspects.
Wow…that is a tough one.
I would say YES, but man, oh man, I would not want to be the one to do it.
yeah, I know..big help, huh?
Happy weekend, dearie.
Works for Me………. That’s NOTHING Compared to tortures used by Other Countries!!!
I just want it all to stop. On every level. But I’m not foolish enough to believe that’s anything more than a fantasy.
Well we start torturing foreigners because their not American and they do not matter right? Their terrorists and they deserve it right?
I wonder how us Americans will feel when the wrong person gets tortured. How are we going to feel when they suspect an American citizen of being associated with terrorists over seas?
They will make a movie about it and everyone will cry in the theaters, and then they will leave and no one will give a shit.
Someone is going to slip up and make another mistake with this soon. Not as too say this torture method is a horror, because yes it is true there are numerous and much worse extreme ways to torture, just read any book on old witch hunting days of the Spanish Inquisition.
The terrorist are completely evil and we are completely pure and good. But to them we are completely evil and they are completely pure and good. The whole war and torture situation is nothing but a spectrum of shades of gray. And the only time it is horrifying is when it will happen to someone it should not. Just remember the media over emphasises and no side is ever completely pure. All in all, I cannot I know about the other attitudes in the rest of America but here in the deep south it is “The Goverment is the goverment and should be trusted no matter what” so do not be so blindsided in opinion ll the time. Yes the torture is wrong, and it is right at the same time. The only important part is making sure that it does not happen to the wrong people. And plus knowing goverment and media there is probably more to that story, and many more other things we do not know about, so never go by what you hear second hand.
NO!! torture in any form, be it physical discomfort, or sensory deprivation, or fear tactic of any kind, is HORRIFIC!
I don’t care what someone might have done, or what they might know – I don’t think torture should be involved with anyone, any country. We need to set high standards for how we treat people. We don’t need to sink down to their levels. We don’t have to be wimps, but we can show people respect and honor human life – even if the world disregards God’s creation.
not always.
no, didn’t we ban torture?
that’d be about the same as torture, wouldn’t it?
I don’t like how Dick Cheney is talking about torturing SUSPECTED terrorists. Considering that the U.S. gov’t is now able to arrest people & hold them in prison indefinitely based on secret evidence, which they don’t have to release to either the suspects or their lawyers – it’s wrong and horrible to torture people just based on suspicion. It basically means the government can torture whoever they want, without ever revealing why. So much for preserving freedom and democracy.
cyssis, I agree with completely- although, I must add my own. There are honorable forms of war. None that I see the current admnistration using.
no it’s mean.
No. Because the definition of “suspected terrorist” seems to be getting broader every day.
It depends on how much evidence they have against the suspected terrorist. I saw the picture. It’s not that bad. I could think of worse things to do.
Absolutely not. It’s sick. I don’t care if it states “while ideally not causing permanent physical damage.” I don’t care if he is a suspected terrorist. He is still a human being, and torture for any reason is unacceptable.
No. Torture should most certainly never be used by the ‘civilized’ west, so long as we chant a mantra of aid for others. We cannot sit on a moral pedistal if we don’t act moral
This is slightly off the subject of torture (which I think is sometimes necessary to get info, that would protects lots of people. . .especially if no long term damage is caused).
Anyway, I need someone to explain something to me. I don’t understand the mentality of people who talk about how we as a country need to ‘never kill.’ How can you adopt that philosophy when other countries refuse to. There will always be crazies out there, and how can we protect ourselves and our way of life, if we think that it is never appropriate to stand up for ourselves. I’m really open to hearing how that works. I like the IDEA of passivism, but it seems that it would only work, if the whole world adopted the idea. . .which aint gonna happen.
no thats horrible
I agree with the first comment. Start chopping off fingers and/or toes.
Hey, no actual damage.
It’s okay to torture someone cause they “might” be a terrorist? The US has lost the moral argument already. And for the record, I AM a US vet, I HAVE lived through terrorist bombing campaigns and when I went through MY teargas training we KNEW it was an exercise and we weren’t going to die. I wouldn’t want torture to be used on anyone. If you want to see what happens to real world people when gung-ho authorities think they’re above international law just google Jean Charles de Menezes. Or if you’re too hung up on the God given right of the American military try My Lai.
I’m no basher of the armed forces, but they get put into some impossible situations by politicians, who put them there because of public opinion. Looks like Pat Robertson and Rupert Murdoch are running the show these days.
um, no. and if he has even considered this, then we are all doomed. (but we already knew that, didn’t we my fellow democrats?)
No. Sometimes suspects don’t have answers anyways.
Fuck waterboarding. Just put the terrorists in the hands of Jigsaw.
No. When you make someone think that you are about to kill them, they will say anything you want. That doesn’t mean that they are a terrorist.
it depends on what we as a nation want to be. If we want to be international policeman, in everybody’s affairs, then yes, as it’s the only way we’ll stay on top the way things are heading. Note that this will lose us international respect (hey look that’s what is already happening!)
if we want to be intelligent, respectable, and known for our morals then no we cannot participate in any sort of torture whatsoever. We cannot stoop to such levels and maintain any sort of dignity…although i think we may have already lost that
it depends on what our priorities are
NOTE: our founding fathers would be appalled by toruture as they considered this nation to be an example for the rest of the world, an example of liberty and equality….we unfortunately no longer live up to that standard. It is sad that we have erred so far from the path that was set out for us.
Wow. That’s horrible.
no thats horrid they’re only suspected we all make mistakes and how would it feel if u do that to someone innocent?
That’s terrible……but all war is in my mind, so I don’t know why I think it should be any better =//
No.
sure
I’ve heard of waterboarding, making a detainee feel like they are drowning. Making someone feel like they are about to die should not be used. Often terrorist will die for their cause and will make up anything to stop the torture that is happening
Of course not! Goodness, Dan, what is the world coming to?!? They’re just terrorists. We should give them equal rights, and maybe amnesty so they can become citizens of our country along with all the illegal immigrants. The world is a much happier place without justice.
…Until those whom justice would have dealt with kill all of us.
Maybe we should use techniques like saying “please” and “thank you”…that sometimes worked with my older sister, and she has a lot in common with terrorists, I think…
But the President says that the US doesn’t torture (it’s against our morals). That means that clearly Cheney isn’t waterboarding anybody.
No, but what can you do, right?
-KrIsTiN-
I would be willing to go well beyond waterboarding.
Uh, torture in general isn’t a reliable way of getting information out of anyone. If you torture them enough for an answer, they’re eventually just going to tell you lies to get out of the pain.
no.
Absolutely fucking not. Torture is never acceptable or justified. NO MATTER WHAT.
I’ve seen a video of someone being waterboarded. Scary.
We can either waterboard a few guys that would butcher and cut the heads of our mothers and daughters or we can be imbicils who just want to kiss everybody on the mouth.
Just tell us what we want to know. We’ll let you live. Do they do the same. No.
I would personally do it with my own hands if it would save the lives of countless others. It ain’t a perfect world.
The purpose, in the long run, is to save lives. I don’t believe the US Constitution applies to foreigners in general, nor terrorists in particular.
They don’t play by our rules, so we need to play by theirs. War is a game played for keeps.
Sure
No, it’s not acceptable in the least. I wanted to chunk my math book at Dick Cheney this morning when I heard them talking about that on CNN. How could he, let alone anyone, think that emotionally torturing anyone for information (what if they had an innocent person…?), no matter what they’ve done. He’s totally defeating the purpose we supposedly invaded Iraq for in the first place. If waterboarding’s allowed under the Geneva Convention, then it needs to be more rigid.
Yes.
Hell no.
No.
…
I just came home from seeing Saw III.
Thankssssss.
Uhm.
No torture.
I don’t know.
That’s all I can say after seeing a face blown up in front of me, a neck slit open, a woman’s ribs pulled out of her body, a foot being bent backwards, a woman being frozen to death, someone being shot in the face, and someone getting their limbs twisted.
I’m not gonna be able to sleep tonight.
hmm
I noticed that no one could address the fact that lives have been saved. I guess those lives are not important enough to cause murders the same discomfort that we cause every pilot in the US military. Water broading is part of their training.
People are such idiots
of course not.
Torture is not an effective mechanism for extracting information.
If you torture someone for long enough, they will tell you anything to get you to stop, even if it isn’t true.
Okay…this doesn’t cause them any physical damage. If we can save countless lives (and mind you, this process doesn’t actually kill anyone) is it not worth trying?
Or would you rather just sit back and let them come and kill us?
And calling this “torture”…man, it isn’t even on the same scale. Go to another country and ask them what torture is. This is nothing compared to what is done elsewhere.
Unacceptable!
Waterboarding might be an acceptable way of getting an extremely evil Vice President to have another heart attack, this one hopefully fatal.
lol sure if people want to.
by the way…his first name is dick?
I think torture is an acceptable means to get information out of terrorists.
no, absolutely not.
are we only concerned with physical damage? perhaps psychological damage could be taken into account as well…yea, they could be a terrorist but if we aren’t SURE then why the extremes? I understand the desire to save lives…but isn’t there any other way?
I think the keyword here is “suspected.” Isn’t there an ammendment about cruel and unusual punishment? And what happened to innocent till proven guilty? There’s no need to torture a “suspected” terrorist….what if the guy turns out to be innocent?
that is retarted. they shouldnt do that. who ever believes that is an ass clown.
Absolutely not, inhumane and unacceptable.
Amnesty International should be all over Cheney for saying that.
I think that is appropreate but they need to make it more pain full…like… idont know how about ears… yes that would work great!
No, and torture is a detrimental to the war on terror. People were tortured during witchcraft trials so they would say whatever the judge wanted them to say. It won’t be any different. We’ll only get false information if we torture.
On one hand, I have a hard time feeling sorry for terrorists being terrorized. It’s always easy to want a murderer to be murdered in the same manner they did unto someone else.
On the other hand, it’s a great thing to hear so many people express their intolerance to violence of any circumstance. Good to know there are good natured people left in the world.
But in all honesty, is a terrorist going to give under physical pressure? No… gag and drown him and he’ll get all excited he’s going to die in the name of his false god and get seventy virgins he’s promised. So I’d say unnecessary if ineffective.
America’s definition of torture is…an unsure thing. The fact that our government and secret services enjoy sending our suspects to foreign countries to “torture” as it is; says a lot about our nation.
Honestly, interrogation can only go so far until it hits rock bottom.
Much better to outsmart and out tech — terrorism is a tactic.
Torture of any sort is never “acceptable”
all said above in defence of torture is well and good… if it actually worked! the problem is that undersevere stress one is as likelly to lie as one s to confess or tell the truth about a situation and many a man who knew nothing confessed and gave faulty bad info because he was scare for hislife and wanted to buy himself just a little more time… remember the witches? there were none, but thousands of women confessed nontheless in order to escape what they perceived as their imminent painful death… even though they were to die anyway! and there are countless stories of brave men lyning through their teeth while being tortured in WWI and II in order to save their bretherin or assure the success of some plan! and these were normal men, not fanatics whot hink that dying in the name of faith will assure them a place in heaven! how many innocent people have to be totured? how many people who actually don’t know anything have to go through hell? the assumption of the torturer is that the victim knows information or is guilty and the prblem with torture is that it goes on indefinitelly untill the ‘desired’ result is reached, either some information or a confession… be it false or true. if the torturer did not assume guilt or knowledge how could he go on torturing someone who denies knowledge?
in short, torture is a flawed method to get information, so putting asside the fact that it is immoral as it impinges on another humans dignity while lessening the virtues of the torturer and has dire psychological effects on both… it doesnt work!
the only reason i can see in continuing torturing is pure (disgusting ad quite evil) notion of revenge and malicious desire to hurt and wound the enemy while giving oneself the illusion of doing something effectual rather than feeling impotent…. and that’s just wrong!
no it’s torture. No way is that every a good way to get anything out of anyone.