February 20, 2007
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$130,000
Ted Haggard, the founding pastor of New Life Church, resigned after a male escort accused him of paying for sex and doing drugs. He was removed as senior pastor of the church and admitted to “sexual immorality.”
Now the church is going to pay him $130,000 in “financial support” over the next year. Here is the link: Link
He was pastor of the church when it grew to thousands of members and raised millions of dollars.
Do you think the church should pay him $130,000 in financial support?
Comments (125)
No.
no
Wow… That sounds like a lot of “financial support” to me. He can find another job, can’t he?
How will he be able to pay for more male escorts? Think about it. From butt sex to cover up is at least $100,000.
I have no idea who he is but why do these men always turn out to be gay?
and NO he should be kicked to the curb with nada.
Dude, what kind of question is this? ‘Should’? Who the hell are we to tell them ‘should’? It’s the congregation’s money, so unless the congregation has a problem with it, how is it our place to say how they should spend their money?
If the church chooses to give him a stipend or severance package of sorts while he gets counseling, that’s their choice.
Certainly. His employer shouldn’t have discriminated against him because of his gender preference. His compensation should be commensurate to what he was making as head of America’s largest evangelical church.
LOL. Well they should pay him that money if he does a poster campaign for those ‘cured’ of homosexuality…
it’s one year of his pay… no, they don’t have to but it is very generous of them
I don’t understand this public fascination about Haggard.
Guess what, people, it happens! Christians make no claim to perfection, pastors included! And not everyone who claims to be Christian really is!
I had an associate pastor of a church I attended who was caught embezzling thousands of dollars from the church over time. The church leadership removed him from office and forced him to make restitution, but made the choice not to press charges in exchange for him going to counseling. Now, they weren’t idiots. They never let him near money again. But neither did they drag the rest of the world in on it.
What’s the fascination?
I think it is the prerogative of the congregation.
*shaking head* Well, if he’s truly repentant of his actions, it’s their choice. But personally, I think they’re idiots for doing it.
Hmmmmm…
ChrisRusso was a former male escort.
MmmNope.
^The maturity of your statement overwhelms me, MrKikey.
Should a person be compensated for publically disgracing and dishonoring the Bride of God? While Christians are all for grace, it was the religious leaders of his day that Jesus held to a higher standard and rebuked with such intensity.
I say, suck up the consequences boy and all their financial woes that go with ‘em.
ChrisRusso -
Christians in general may not make a claim to “perfection”, but some of the more fanatic members spend so much time judging others and telling them they’re going to hell, or that they are “living in sin”, that the public takes enjoyment in seeing them shown as hypocrites.
As I’ve said to so many people, live your life, save the judging for God. To steal from John Mayer, have you ever changed your mind because someone yelled something really loud? Probably not. So why do people expect others to?
Certainly! Rev. Ted’s employer should never have discriminated against him because of his gender preference. His compensation should be commensurate with what he was making as head of a prosperous church.
He’s still a human…..
“Should a person be compensated for publically disgracing and dishonoring the Bride of God? While Christians are all for grace, it was the religious leaders of his day that Jesus held to a higher standard and rebuked with such intensity.
I say, suck up the consequences boy and all their financial woes that go with ‘em.” –enchristos
I agree 100%
Fair enough, MacPro. And I’d never heard of Haggard before this, so I don’t know how much he was the scary-judgmental fanatic sort. But the public enjoyment in revealed hypocrisies still sickens me.
I mean, imagine what it’s like for his family right now. T’ain’t nothing funny about it.
why not and who the hell really cares
Honestly, I think that’s the church’s business and the church’s alone. If that’s what they vote to do with their money, then that’s their decision and no one else should be involved.
I guess it is up to the congregation since they are the ones donating their money,but I think that if he respests his former congregation he would take only the bare minum of what he needs to live…meaning living with less ,not spiffy cars and club memberships and dining out etc.I also think that he should do his best to aid in his support and tithe off of the money that he is given.
Did he use the church’s money to pay for the guy?? If not I say pay him… we all have our little secrets… most of us just haven’t been caught.
wtf.
not THAT much……
I will say that I didn’t know much about Haggard before the incident either, and I don’t know that the “fanatic” label fits him. I was trying to explain why people react this way to hypocrisy with church leaders.
I think that being a public figure opens you up to this kind of criticism, and that will affect the people around you, including your family. Being a church leader is a lot like being a politician. You’re in the public eye, and you have a certain amount of celebrity, whether you want it or not. I think that those people know what they’re getting into when they get into it though. What I don’t understand is how people in those positions think that they can do anything without it being found out. That seems shortsighted on their part.
guess what, i actually went to his church and I know a lot of people who still go, and surprisingly i didn’t feel like there was this great hatred towards homosexuals. So, everyone who feels like he is getting his just reward for hating gays is wrong. And #2, as a pk, I understand why the church would give him money for the year. The man has a family that has been totally dependant upon him for quite a while now, and they can’t just be left with “the financial woes” that go with his actions. Quite frankly, a guy of Haggards abilities would be able to make much more than 130k a year plus whatever money from book deals, but he made the decision to work for less. Get off this guys case and maybe think of what you would feel like if you were his kid, or wife, or Haggard himself. Oh, and MrKikey that was very immature and stupid. Enchristos, while you make a good point, think of pauls example, he was burning christians one minute and in the next he was being supported by them.
That’s pretty standard for a founder who resigns.
Think of it as a corporate severance package. It’s the right thing to do since his days in the ministry are over and he will have to find another occuption. Plus, I am sure they took this to the congregation and they made a decision to do it.
They can do whatever they want, it’s their church and their money and their former pastor.
OK
hah, i read “SEXUAL IMMORTALITY”
my parents are missionaries. They (combined) get roughly 40,000 a year. 130,000 is way too much.
I’m sure the church is thinking of his family…it’s not his wife and kids’ fault that this happened, they are dependent on him for support, and this will help them through this crisis while Mr. Haggard does whatever he has to do to get help and move on with his life.
MacPro,
“Christians in general may not make a claim to “perfection”, but some of the more fanatic members spend so much time judging others and telling them they’re going to hell, or that they are “living in sin”, that the public takes enjoyment in seeing them shown as hypocrites.”
While I can understand the logic behind this statement, I must say that in reality, people do not behave as fairly as this statement presents. People do no just take joy in exposing hypocrites; People take joy in bashing Christians as a whole. Every person who is a Christian is automatically considered a backwards, Bible-bashing fundamentalist – a hater and uneducated in modern science and social etiquette. In a perfect world, the fanatic members would be the only people who are targeted and sneered at. However, that is not the case in our world. MrKikey’s comment against ChrisRusso demonstrates that. By your own admittance, you did not know if Haggard himself was a fanatic, but you still take joy in seeing him fall (or at least, defend the people who do.)
It would be nice to believe that the radical offenders are getting their comeuppance and justify the joy of the masses at seeing people fall, but that is not the case here, nor is it the case when Christians as a whole are mocked and condemned.
Not many jobs pay a yearly severance. Just hope he doesn’t come to Phoenix.
That’s an outrageous sum, even if it were his salary.
I don’t think it’s wrong of them to help him out, but that’s a lot of moeny. We are all sinners. And the church is supposed to take care of those who need help. I’m sure most of them still really love and care about him and his family.
*money
If I get let go from my job or quit, they don’t give me anything. I don’t see why he should be treated any differently.
Now, I won’t say that the “enjoyment of the public” is always expressed appropriately or civilly. To say that would be to assume that the majority of people are reasonably intelligent, and I think that would be a rather unsafe assumption.
And, Bokgwai, you are correct in believing that a lot of people do want to bash Christians. I think the problem that most Christians face is that the people who yell the loudest in their faith are often the “craziest”. It’s an uphill battle for those who are more moderate.
I just wonder when religion became less of a personal choice of people and more something that necessitates its own society in order to exist the way it truly wants to. I think there is an intolerance of other viewpoints among many religions because they believe so strongly that they are “right”. Why can’t individuals just take joy in their own faith, and allow others to live their lives the way that they choose? I know that some of it comes from the overwhelming joy that some people get from their religion. The joy is so overwhelming to them that they can’t believe that anyone wouldn’t want to join. However, one’s person joy does not make everyone happy, as is demonstrated by the public joy at the “fall” of those in high places (be they religious, political, business, or entertainment).
*shaking head* Well, if he’s truly repentant of his actions, it’s their choice. But personally, I think they’re idiots for doing it.
Posted 2/20/2007 8:20 AM by RedHairedCelt
Ditto.
Isn’t it amazing how all the family values Republiscum always get caught with a little meat in their mouths
I think the way that fellowship has responded to his moral failure is beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. May God give us all such an intimate knowledge of grace.
I love how they call it “financial support”. I mean, if they can’t call it what it -is-… Why does he deserve/need this “financial support”? Whatever. I don’t particularly care, to be frank.
Cut that amount by 3/4s and make the check out to his wife, and then MAYBE I would consent to a severance deal.
If he can use the money to take time off work to be in counseling, to help his family get through counseling and hopefully get his life turned around then isn’t it a good thing? Isn’t it worth $130,000 for one person to get the help they need so that they can turn their lives around, or, dare I say, go to heaven? What if he gets his life straightened out and can minister to others that have gone through the same thing? What if many men can come to the Lord because of this? Then would it have been worth $130,000?
My bretheren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. -James 5:19,20
get rid of him
no
Posted 2/20/2007 8:08 AM by Corwin256
No.
Posted 2/20/2007 8:08 AM by mamatotwo
I think I agree with them if $130 000 is supposed to be a loy of money.
I live in the community where Haggard pastored. I’ve seen the damage done to this community and I feel that the church has been extra gracious to him over the years…he should have a nice little nest egg. If I were part of that church (which I am not) I would vote for no severance package. Military-like, it would be dishonorable discharge with no benefits. However, like x_iheartcoffee_x said, it is ultimately the church’s decision.
We would all do well to remember this bit of profound wisdom and warning: “In the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.” If we live with that truth ever before us, it is sure to change our attitude toward the “fallen.”
Of course, that doesn’t answer the question of the $130k, but it does provide a crucial foundation from which to dialogue on such things.
Yes.
I’m sure they have a board and if they voted on it then yes. Also he helped raise most of that money and a church shouldnt turn thier back on a sinner!
I don’t really know the situation but it sounds like a bad deal for the church.
I don’t really care.
It’s up to them, it’s their money. Despite his shortcomings he still led them through a lot, didn’t he? I think that as long as the church as a body agrees to do it then it’s fine. What he does with it is up to him, and will be a good test of his character.
No… I mean, if you want to donate money to him that’s fine, but I would think that $130,000 is a hefty sum for someone who did something like that behind the backs of his congregation.
To comment on someone else’s comment, Ted was the founding pastor, so he was his own boss. He got caught doing something that he felt was an embarrassment to his profession, so he removed himself from it.
Why would a person start a business and then hire someone to be their boss. Makes no sense. I guess if you just had to name a boss presiding over him it would be God.
The church members obviously care very deeply for Ted, and they are sure they are doing the right thing. If Christains made it a habit of abandoning those who did something wrong, there wouldn’t be very many Christains left (none, perhaps).
Besides, you don’t just give out that amount of money without giving it at least a little thought beforehand.
The main reason I don’t object is, I don’t have a stake in the issue. None of that $130 thousand is mine, so they can do whatever the hell they want with their money.
toughy. i think not tho.
NO!
Not unless it was already written into his contract or something.
it is the churches choice. If I were a member I would vote no, but then I do not know all the sides to the story either
NO WAY, that makes me pretty angry.
I’d think it was the whole ‘paying for sex’ thing that was the worst part and not the fact that it was a guy he paid for sex, but what do I know about it? I guess if they really want to give him $130,000 they can, but does he really need that much?
he could live on wayyy less then that. 130,000 is a luxury.
Fight Mental Illness Stigma
Male escorts and crack must cost more now a a days, what with all that publicity.
Macpro,
Thank you for recognizing the propensity of the general public to lump all Christians together under one offensive flag, and for recognizing the uphill battle for those who wish to have no association with fringe fanatics.
Regarding your comment on religion being a personal choice and the desire of the practitioners to affect the society they live in, I would argue that all peoples, religious or not, desire to affect and impact their society for what they believe to be good. A feminist will argue for more women’s rights. An environmentalist will argue for stronger emissions controls and less SUVs (or alternative fuel, even if it costs more). Atheists will argue for creation theory to be kept out of schools. Democrats and Republicans will argue for fiscal responsibility (using their ownk economic theories). In every case, each person and their associated group will argue for what they believe will create a better society for themselves and for their children. People desire to improve the quality of life, not make it worse.
The desire to have “its own society … exist the way it truly wants to” is no limited to religion, but applies to all people, in all places, all the time. Christianity is just an easy target because bashing Christianity will not result in a scathing response one would expect from feminists, environmentalists, atheists, or politicians when their ideas are opposed or put down.
Of course, remember he is TOTATLY HETEROSEXUAL now
i think they should get him another male prostitute and call it a day.
He should be Shot for being a damned Hypocrite.
isnt that what church is for?
money…wealth..power….talking shit about anyone who doesnt do everything the exact way you believe it “should be done”
Well, he’ll need something to hold him over until he can find another job. And its not like disgraced pastors can go to a different church. They won’t hire him(at least, not this soon). It will take him a little while to get on his feet, so I have no problem with it. Now, after a year, he’s on his own. He should have another job by then.
I honestly don’t know.
No.
I agree that the desire to have society exist the way that we each want it to is a drive that we all have as people. However, it seems sometimes that religious groups need more from people than some other groups in order to be able to happily co-exist in society. Now, I’m not saying that religious groups CAN’T co-exist with the less-religious or secular parts of society, but they don’t seem to do so happily. This is not limited to Christianity. There is a vein that seems to run through different religions that contends that “everyone must live as I do, or things are not right”. There is an assumption of the incorrectness of “others” because they do not have the omnipotence of God on their side. An idea that these “others” only do as they do because they don’t know what I know. That idea leads to an attitude of moral superiority amongst religious people, which, understandably, doesn’t go over well with people who don’t like being told how to live their lives. That is where my comment on religion moving from something that’s an individual thing to more of something that necessitates its own society to be satisfied came from.
When the people who claim to speak from this place of “moral superiority”, like Mr. Haggard, make decisions in their lives that are “immoral” in their own belief system, it’s hard not to hammer on them. They spend their time telling other people how they’re supposed to live when they aren’t even doing it themselves! It’s not only that they are hypocritical, but that they are trying to tell others how to live from a position that, at its essence, is a position of authority or superiority. How is the general public supposed to react when someone who is “immoral” by their own code is trying to educate people on morality?
Yes, he may have made mistakes, but it is that churches money and they probably still love and want to support the man who was their leader, and not abandon him just because he fell for a time.
Yeah, who are we to judge their choice? I’m certain he did a lot of things right for that church.
Nope. And that’s a rediculous salary for a minister anyway.
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
not much of a punishment to get kicked out but keep your salary, eh?
I am glad that I don’t have to make that decision and I am glad I don’t have to answer for his or his churches actions
Just another thought having read some of the comments, what I hate about the whole deal is the people that have been hurt or turned off of true Christianity because of the idiot moves of one man. I am sorry to all of you that have second guessed your faith and to those that view christianity negatively because of his actions.
I couldnt care less
That seems a little much…
i think 130000 is very very excessive.
no.. its not lyk the church owes him that money.. he’ll just use the money to hook up wit a male escort..
What kind of a pastor makes $130,000 a year?!?!? That kind of money should be going to the community!! Isn’t that part of what churches are supposed to do? You know, care for the week and feeble and all that stuff that that Jesus guy talked about?
Not sure about should, but it is their money so they can do whatever they like with it. Anyway, who can say they’ve never been sexually immoral? Either way, I think that is too high.
Classic example of justice and freedom. People are free to do what they want with their money, but the recipient may not be deserving.
Those religious freaks… it was better to dump him with no money what so ever so he could learn from his mistake. I guess his next job would be a male escort or stripper or maybe starting in porn!
In fact… I really need that money… I’m weak and feeble like that girl said… Where’s the damm money, bitches!
it depends on how solid the proof is that he was paying for sex and doing drugs. It also depends on if they are monitering the money or not
The whole purpose the church should have in forcing him to resign in the first place is disciplinary in nature. As a church, we’re called to exhort one another and, when a member of the congregation opts to live in sin despite Scripture’s condemnation of the act or practice, we’re called to put them out of fellowship.
Giving Ted Haggard this money, in a business sense, is good practice. Morally, they dropped the ball in providing him any compensation.
My answer is “no.”
I don’t think I would call it financial support. More like severance pay. Or unemployment insurance.
It is the congregation’s choice. If I was a member of the congregation I would be fighting it because rewarding sin is wrong and that is what that amounts to plus he resigned and it is bad business practice to hand out money to people who resign. I would probably leave the church over that kind of thing though because a church that is making decisions of that sort have in all likelihood lost touch with God’s desires. That money could be much better spent on people who really need it throughout the world.
I thought about this one for a while and….YES. I think so.
Any other job this act wouldn’t have been even an issue. It would have been a personal issue to be kept out of the workplace.
So if he resigned because it looked bad to the congregation then they have a right to give him some sort of “severance package” for forcing him to leave a job that, like I said, any other job wouldn’t have meant work death.
Keep in mind a few things. He does have a family to provide for and it seems that with all of the counseling he is going to go through he might not be able to work for a while. But also one thing to keep in mind is how easy will it be for Ted Haggard to get a job. Everybody knows who this guy is and a lot of disgusted, disgruntled people in his city won’t hire him. Now I don’t feel bad for Ted. I feel bad for his family. I happen to come from a pastors family where something similar happened (not near as extreme as this sitituation though). And I know that those who really pay for it aren’t just the pastor but his family. Guilt by association creeps in. You feel like you have a disease. The family will lose out on medical insurance, financial stability, and will probably also have to move. So when the Church gives Ted Haggard 130K. (Which I do find to be a lot of money) I don’t think they did it for Ted but his family.
Don’t know who he is or the details about the situation and I’m not about to read something right now (I’m not in the in-depth reading mood), so I can’t really say anything about it.
But… I don’t think they should have to pay financial support unless their accusations were wrong. *shrugs*
Don’t know–don’t care
Heck No He has tons of money already
What kind of a pastor makes $130,000 a year?!?!? That kind of money should be going to the community!! Isn’t that part of what churches are supposed to do? You know, care for the week and feeble and all that stuff that that Jesus guy talked about?
Posted 2/20/2007 1:48 PM by mightymarce
I agree. My dad’s a pastor and he would never make that much money
no
Did he boost the income of the church?
There you go.
It aint about god yo, it’s about PROFIT.
And I put both of those ass bandits to shame with my moneymaker…
Cause it was never about ass…
Just kidding.
Oh Hells no! He made a stupid choice… and gets rewarded with big bucks for it? *snickers* Just one more reason I’ll never understand the Christians…..
So let me get this straight: this man wants money as a form of holy appeasement?
I think that it depends. If he repents and changes what was wrong, then I think that it’s wonderful that the church is trying to hlep him.
Ugh….who cares?
Personally, I don’t care. If his congregation wants to pay him, then that is their decision and their money.
Um…personally no. I would give the money to a relatable charity.
No. But seriously, it’s up to the congregation.
Why does a church even have that much money? Wouldn’t Jesus throw a tantrum if he saw a church hoarding money in his name that could be used to help those less fortunate?
He has disqualified himself from ministry for the time being, but not paycheck. If the church body feels that paying him this money would be good stewardship, they know the situation better than I. I would trust their judgment.
Pay him support for what? The only support they should offer him is paying for his counseling sessions.
on on see more sex!
Uh, no. He’s a big boy, and he should be able to take care of himself. That $130,000 can be given to something/someone for a better cause. It’d be one thing if he was about to lose his home, etc, but I highly doubt that. Besides, I would think that people in church would know that God will provide… ?
It is their decision.
No. He was a hypocrite and did wrong and should have to face consequences. I’m not saying the congregation couldn’t assist him and they should– but a salary of $130,00 is a bit more than an assist!!
Nope. I really do not think he deserves the congregation’s money (especially that much, but I’m not a protestant and perhaps that is a standard pastor’s pay??)…the congregations provides that, I would think, for the Church….upkeep, prayerbooks, ministries, missions,etc. No? That would be my thought. If I were a member, I wouldn’t want to tithe for HIM. That to me, would be a sin.
hmm I not I don’t think they should but it was nice of them i guess.
Why should they? He gave the church a bad name with what he did, and now they’re all, “Here’s money!” What sense does that make?
:: read james 3
For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We should be forgiving enough to accept him back if he repents but not sponsor immorality.
That would be history repeating itself, when the church spoiled corrupt clergy crooks. Hopefully, there won’t be another Reformation.