March 14, 2007
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The Mentally Handicapped and Justice
One trial that has been in the news is the trial of John Couey.
John Couey raped and killed a 9-year-old girl. According to prosecutors he took her from her room, raped her, and left her to die in his backyard.
The jury found him guilty of abducting, raping and murdering Jessica Lunsford. Now they must determine his fate on whether he should be executed.
His defense team argued that he was not mentally competent. They had him tested for IQ and he scored a 64. The prosecutors had him tested at 71. That put him 1 point above what is generally considered retarded. It is against the law to execute someone who is retarded. Here is the link: Link
Is a 71 IQ high enough to hold someone responsible for abduction, rape and murder?
Comments (149)
after all that, it comes down to 1 IQ point?
I believe so.
I don’t know the difference between 70 and 71. Not that it should necessarily be a money issue, but what will cost more?
yes
Someone with an IQ of 71 can’t be expected to understand the things that a person with an IQ of even 80 is capable of.
At the same time, IQ isn’t the only standard of measuring mental competence.
Further, the question seems more targeted at whether or not it’s right to execute anyone at all.
i’d say yes.
I think so. If he’s smart enough to rape and murder someone, he’s smart enough to be punished for it.
I didn’t know IQ was relevant to holding some one responsible for their actions…..
I don’t think his IQ has to do with raping and killing a 9 year old.
I think every human knows right from wrong.
I person is responsible for what they’ve done, weather they’re a genius or mentally handicapped. If the capacity to commit a crime is there, well, they are a danger to society. : /
I say burn him at the stake, torture him, bury him alive….
He’s faking the mental retardation hoping for leniency….
Show NO Mercy.
Candy
Treat him like a child. What happens to children who rape and murder?
You can’t tell me he didn’t know what he was doing was wrong.
YES. just yes.
♥ flyy_quotes
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I honestly don’t know…
Let the family decide what his sentence will be… But anything that they decide to do, they will have to do themselves… For instance, if they want him executed, they have to kill him themselves…
Wow, some people are tough. I don’t think every human knows right from wrong. Adults with a mental disability do not always know right from wrong. Heck, a Developmentally Disabled client had to ask me my name every time he saw me. If he couldn’t retain my name for more than 15 minutes, how could be expected to know that rape and murder are wrong? Does he even know what rape or murder are?
What about delusions/hallucinations/voices? Some people literally become possessed/fixated on something. Maybe in this case it was sex. So he had sex with that poor girl, maybe in his mind it wasn’t rape, it was just what he had to do to get rid of that urge.
What kind of mental health treatment system do they have in prison? There is mental health recovery and perhaps that should be investigated more. State inpatient mental health facilities are not cushy resorts (at least in Michigan they aren’t).
This is why we should kill retards when they’re born!
ouch. I don’t have a clue, but ouch.
Well, either way, he will be punished – either death penalty or life in prison. If he gets the death penalty he will be killed in a humane manner – more than can be said for that poor little kid.
My personal feeling is that if he had the capacity to commit this crime, he has the capacity to be executed for it. I don’t care what happened to him, what he did to this girl was absolutely sick, and he should be held responsible for it.
Keep in mind that I say this without knowing the details of the case (we really can’t pass judgment on things until we have all the facts). But just going by that article, if I were a juror, I don’t think that the circumstances of this mans life mitigated the crime – which was carefully planned and cold-bloodedly executed, and therefore, I don’t think a penalty of death would be unreasonable here.
I wonder if there could be an independent analysis of what his IQ is. The defense and the prosecution would obviously interpret any test results to benefit their respective positions.
yup
He should not be executed regardless, he should be locked up for many many years in a hole underground.
Cheers,
m
IQ is not a measure for competence. Mental sanity is. Since he is sane, he is therefore competent to stand trial.
Mental retardation has 3 criteria: IQ of 70 or below, poor adaptive skills, and an onset of age 18 making it a developmental disorder. With his IQ of 71 he would be considered Borderline Intellectually Functioning. Regardless, someone with an IQ of 71 can determine right and wrong!
did he understand what he was doing? did he understand that it was wrong? generally in law if an individual attempts to hide their actions they know that they are wrong in the eyes of the law/society. did he try to hide his actions?
coming down to one point, thats silly, the idea that numerical limits can be placed on everything is so wrong, just as people are not considered fully bipolar because manic stages last 3 instead of 4 days. numeric limits should be viewed as a guideline, not a strict policy to be adhered to.
In Michigan the onset for a developmental disability through age 21. Kinda scary because a friend of mine was diagnosed with a brain tumor and had some resulting DD issues right after his 22nd birthday.
yes
if the Law is “anything above 70″ then yes, 71 falls under the rule and he should be executed.
I don’t believe in execution at all, so I’m biased. But no, one IQ point can’t make much of a difference. Plus, his defence had him at a 64, so there’s no proof that the other IQ score is correct as opposed to the lower one.
Yes.
I see no reason why even a person with an IQ of 64 should not be executed. If a person is incapable of determining right and wrong then what point is there to having them be free at all. It only gets worse when you have a person who does wrong and does not know it.
I vote to kill him.
That guy looks like he didn’t even dress himself. I can’t help but feel sympathy even though what he did was wrong and gross. Don’t you think living in prison and then being strapped to a chair and then getting a lethal injection would be a little traumatic for him to handle? And further more. Killing is killing. I sound a bit like those anti-abortion people now, but anyway, KILLING IS KILLING. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
If he’s capable of knowing what to do with his dick he should be capable of standing up for trial to be convicted of his crime.
yes, he was smart enough to commit the crime, he should be held responsible for it.
Being thtat close to mentally retarded…no.
I think that castration would be an appropriate punnishment.
The questions are–can he understand the charges against him, did he know right from wrong at the time, can he help with his own defense? If yes, yes, and yes…then, he must be held accountable for his actions and accept the consequences.
BTW–Dan, Dan, Dan…”adducting?” You mean ABducting?
yes, he is not mentaly handicapted, he understands what he did, he should pay the price.
It is a shame when those who have a higher IQ and think that murdering, raping and such is the act of a sick mind do not treat the offender as such.
I too want to feel good about justice and deter others from committing these types of acts, but who among us that is not sick is not frieghtened by the thought of coviction of this and therefore does not do it? YOU MUST BE SICK TO TAKE A LIFE.
Now it is the job of those who are “NOT SICK” to decide wether to take the life of those who have already done so. A fine line indeed between the sick and healthy.
Ten bucks says he’s faking. The bastard. He should rot in hell. D:
I haven’t heard much about this, so I dunno. I’d probably say no and get him some mental help with an institution.
Well not killing him certainly doesn’t mean that he’s not being held accountable.
Still sounds like he ought to be killed to me.
Who cares what his IQ is!?!?!?!?!?
he obviously has problems… They need to put him in a correctional institution regardless of whether he’s mentally challenged or not. Jail will do nothing, and killing him just isn’t right to me. (not that rape and murder is right either…).
Obviously, he needs to be away from society because he is dangerous. Execution is the easy way out and it costs more than lifetime jail with the appeals.
Darwin dictates that if you cannot be held responsible for your actions or be guarded against yourself then you should….. DIE
How about a 3rd test to see if he’s retarded 2 out of 3 times.
How can a ‘retarded man” afford a team of lawyers?!
Aww, I even know the supreme court case that makes it illegal.
Roper v. Simmons 2005.
It was controversial because the justices looked at international law and were all like “Yo wtf d00ds, we ezecute mentally challenged people, what the fucks man”
Everyone knows that the supreme court communicated in 733t
It doesn’t take intelligence to tell right or wrong. I believed I learned “keep your hands off of others” at age 3. Rape is a cruel, cruel thing, and if he is capable of it he should not be able to just walk away from a sentence.
However, I also learned that killing was wrong at age 3. Or before. I am against the death penalty, but he should be locked up.
Well not killing him certainly doesn’t mean that he’s not being held accountable.
Posted 3/14/2007 2:42 PM by ronlawhouston
srsly!
Yes… IQ shouldn’t matter in rape and murder cases.
He’s obviously retarded
HE SCORED HIGHER ON THE TEST THE PROSECUTERS GAVE HIM!
Who in they’re RIGHT MIND would do that?
Well..him if he isn’t retarded..
Where am I going with this?
I’ve lost myself again
This one kinda reminds me of the movie I Am Sam, in any case if he rape and killed that 9-year-old girl he should be executed, even though he is retarded (…I think his not, just acting up) and I really don’t care he scored low IQ. :S
Uhm, it’s abduction, not adduction.
And yes, he is responsible. Everyone is accountable for their own actions, whether they’re retarded by definition or not.
i guess he’s just one point away from being retarded, he’s not accepted anywhere
Maybe we should just bury him alive
I think I agree with Disturbing_The_Universe because that would be as fair as you get get to both sides. He may only have a 71 IQ but what if he was faking the tests just to get out of the crime? Also I definitely don’t agree with what PSUnited1 said. Are you serious? Or are you just making a dumb joke? Either way that was one of the most retarded [no pun intended] statements I’ve heard in a while.
Do *something* with him.
“Haaaalp! ther guna exekewt meh! HAAAALP!!”
yes.
idiot
i dont care what your disability is. if u are compitent enough to rape and kill someone, u should get what you deserve.
lyssa, the yellow one
Whether you assholes think he “ought” to be killed, burned, skinned, or buried alive – none of that will bring the girl back or erase what happened.
Men like Couey give the rest of you an opportunity to display how you’re no different. He raped a girl for pleasure, you want him dead because it pleases your moral sensibilities.
You’re all a bunch of moral masturbaters.
look what that man did to that community.. ughghgh
I think so. If he’s smart enough to rape and murder someone, he’s smart enough to be punished for it.
Posted 3/14/2007 1:30 PM by annakristine270
That little girl tried to claw her way out of that bag. Who cares if he’s stupid?? PUNISH HIM TO THE FULLEST EXTENT!!
Fry ‘em!
I’m fine with him dieing.
By the way, can’t you just cheat on the IQ test…? Play stupid?
Most definetely.
He was competent enough to harm that sweet girl. I think he needs to be held accountable for his actions.
I think he should stand trial, but I am unsure of the death penalty.
Yes. But there are more specific points I would like to bring up.
1. Isn’t it possible to fake mental retardation? You can know the right answers to the test and just put the wrong ones to save yourself.
2. If he is somewhat mentally unstable based on 1 IQ point, BIG WHOOPDIDOO! If you’re going to go by the rules, then go by the rules. There’s no loopholes or anything, just go by the freaking rules. If the rules say that you cannot give a mentally retarded person the death penalty and a mentally retarted person has an IQ of 70 or below and this fellow has an IQ of 71, then he is NOT mentally retarded according to the books and he CAN be given the death penalty.
3. I have met MANY mentally retarded people who know right from wrong. This man is no exception. In my books, mentally retarded people have an idea of right and wrong. I’ve seen it in action and these people had an IQ of less than 70.
I say yes.He does not look near as retarted on his mug shot….it is for sympathy.
He was a repeat offender,he buried he alive after raping her repeatedly .I think they should bury him alive.
Yes.
*her
yes. He is competent to stand trial and be convicted…
If you have killed someone, I don’t think it should matter what your IQ is
Zero is high enough. If his IQ is that of an animal then do what you would do to an animal. Shoot it!
I don’t care who that person is, their still acountable.
if he’s smart enough to know how to rape someone then he’s not completely retarded now is he?
kill him.
Held responsible? Absolutely. Regardless of his intelligence, people who are dangerous like that should not be allowed to wander around the public.
However, I stand against the death penalty. I advocate against it in all cases. A nice lengthy jail sentence would suit better.
-David
fuckin IQ’s don’t matter.
“Whether you assholes think he “ought” to be killed, burned, skinned, or buried alive – none of that will bring the girl back or erase what happened.
Men like Couey give the rest of you an opportunity to display how you’re no different. He raped a girl for pleasure, you want him dead because it pleases your moral sensibilities.
You’re all a bunch of moral masturbaters.
Posted 3/14/2007 3:50 PM by Yohsiph”
Cheers. We live in a crooked society.
-David
How do you know he’s not faking it?
Anyway, even if he is mentally retarted, he could still see the difference between right and wrong.
But I just don’t know.
regardless he still should be killed for doing so.
Held responsible? Absolutely. Regardless of his intelligence, people who are dangerous like that should not be allowed to wander around the public.
However, I stand against the death penalty. I advocate against it in all cases. A nice lengthy jail sentence would suit better.
-David
Posted 3/14/2007 5:04 PM by Direshark
Thank you. I agree.
Cheers,
m
You know what, it sounds like he knew pretty well what he was doing by the way he bound her up.
His IQ is higher than 70 and to me that’s that. If there’s such an issue of whether 71 is too low, they should make it 80 or whatever appropriate and make that final.
how time appropriate! im doing a research paper abotu the insanity defense! Even though they’re claiming he’s not insane but retarded. I found there is a lot of fault in that policy. Proving someone insane or retarded is pretty difficult and anyone can just claim it as a last ditch effort to get away with something, like jane boleyn types. Maybe he’s even faking it. Maybe his IQ was higher when he was comitted the heinous act. A lot of maybes. But personally, I think a 71 is just high enough for him to be censurable.
Nah he just looks retarded.
Hold his ass responsible to the fullest.
This man wasnt retarded when he scored drugs and got high, either.
1. Seems to me like execution might be too kind a punishment for what he did.
2. An IQ test can be manipulated by someone wanting to appear mentally incompetent.
3. What will failing to punish him for committing such a horrible crime do but set a precedent for other wack-jobs to think they could do the same thing and then plead stupidity to get out of it?
Blue
i think too many people use – retarded or mentally ill – as a way to get out of murder. But personally, as long as hes never let of of prison or the mental institue i say whatever. But it is likely that the person would be sent to a mental institue in hope they could prove “well” and get out later.
- Daniel (doubledb)
Just put him in with the general population in a maximum security prison. He’ll find out what it’s like to be raped and murdered soon enough! I consider myself a liberal most of the time, but people who commit crimes like this make me want to put a bullet in their heads myself. Retarded or not.
I have absolutely no idea. I don’t know much about IQ’s. My IQ on IQ’s is low.
yes, but he shouldn’t be executed [though i might be biased, seeing as i don't believe in the death penalty no matter what you've done].
It’s ridiculous that you can’t execute someone who’s retarded. To some extent on mild charges it makes sense. But raping and murdering a 9 year old girl should be wrong- no matter what your background is. And if they don’t execute him, he’ll have the chance of being let loose eventually and do the same thing, which nobody in society wants.
Put him in jail.
actually, most psychologists and special education teachers use a range of 70-75 as the cutoff for legitimate mental retardation as defined by ADA, so regardless of the prosecuter’s score, he would still be mentally incompetent.
no it isn’t.. i cant believe how many people said yes. if you’ve nvr been retarded though, how would you know? dan, we’re not the judges at this question..
i feel horrible for the girl and her family but.. it’s just.. idk.
yes, and I don’t think that IQ should be a factor….and it should not be illeagal to execute someone with a low IQ who is considered “retarded”….wrong is wrong……that’s the problem with our legal system…to many loopholes
he takes a girl from her home, rapes her, and murders her, and they are claiming he didn’t know what he was doing? i’d say he had a pretty good idea what he was doing. and he should pay the full price for it.
of course, you could use the argument that anyone who pulls crap like that is mentally insane
Whether he is executed or not, child molester/killers will be killed in jail anyways…unless he’s in solitary confinement, then let the fucker be executed.
since he attempted to hide the girl, doesnt that mean he knew it was wrong?
obviously he knew it wasnt a good thing.
i say put them all on an island somewhere, like a really monsoony island.
ugh I can’t even answer this one…can’t even think about it
I’ve never studied the issues involved nor this case in particular, so I don’t know.
Yohsiph, you are one smart dude.
Peoples, killing him won’t do anything except quench your thirst for revenge. Nothing will be gained by torturing the dude; stop thinking that you’re so hella righteous and do the practical thing, which in this case, is making sure it doesn’t happen again, which in this case, means locking him up.
Going by most of your religious principles, he isn’t ours to judge.
just kill it.
For some reason, this vaguely reminds me of the movie ‘The Village’. o_O Maybe the whole ‘executing the mentally handicapped guy’ concept.
If he was smart enough to abduct, kidnap, and rape her, he’s smart enough to be punished for what he did.
Would it hurt to put him in a facility for life?
kill this bastard
It’s against the law?! isn’t that being biased in some way? I mean…I understand that they might not get it…but everyone’s had their hand slapped for uncalled for conduct during childhood. My cousin is autistic, and she knows better than to pull some of the stunts she does.
He killed a nine year old girl…
Off with his head!
Test scores are inexact measurements. If someone scores a 71 on one day, it is entirely possible that on another day they could score a 69. It’s unreasonable to characterize someone who scores a 69 as mentally retarded and someone who scores a 71 as mentally competent. I don’t think we can hold the mentally retarded up to the same standard of behavior we expect from those who are not retarded. That doesn’t mean that this man should go scot-free. Far from it. He committed a crime and he should be punished. But I think this is clearly a case where the death penalty is not warranted.
Most of us can offer only an opinion. Few have any qualifications to rule on that question.
I wonder what the difference is between that 1 IQ point. If it was expressed mathematically, it would probably be a decimal, and a small one at that. You can average those two test scores for a total of 67.5. But I guess that isn’t fair in some people’s views… Perhaps another one? I wonder what they would think of that? I don’t think it comes down to right or wrong. It comes down to accepting what one has done, through one’s own thoughts and reflections. Not what people have told them. Next would be accepting their punishment, which I doubt this one could do because, frankly, it’s over the top.
If someone can tell a man of lesser intelligence that he knows right and wrong and should die for a crime, than the man will think it right and die. And then, who will be in the right, if the right was wrong to begin with?
I don’t believe in the death penalty anyway. “For the greater good?” Pff. The “greater good” is saving every life possible, not the lose of one for the possible betterment of many. When dealing with human lives, take the small gamble as long as it’s certain. As opposed to, of course, big payoff at big risk with no reward or huge losses
hmm tough question. did he plan it because if hes smart enough to plan that then he should be executed. the fact is it shouldnt just come down to IQ, other facters should be considered.
one IQ point.
this reminds me of steinbeck’s novel of mice and men.
A score of 71 on an IQ test is essentially the equivalent of getting a 70, 69, or 73. There’s always a “confidence interval” (or range) that is provided when an IQ is determined. Furthermore, it is not at all surprising to me that his score was slightly higher after having been tested the second time. Generally, it is not recommended that anyone be given an IQ test more than once/year. Even if the second IQ test was different (and it surely was), the guy will have benefitted from what we call “practice effects,” which would account for the elevated score.
In short, he is clearly mentally handicapped. I am certain that a determination of this guy’s capacity to determine right from wrong will not be based solely upon an IQ score (though it will likely contribute something to the evaluation). A clinical interview and/or a mental status exam will have likely also been used to determine this.
Should he be executed? I really don’t think so. Should he be held responsible for his actions? Of course. My guess is that they will incarcerate him for life. He’ll likely be housed with other inmates will similar cognitive deficits. We’ll see, I suppose.
For the record, my professional background enables me to speak pretty knowledgeably about IQ tests and how they’re used. I’ve administered, scored, and interpreted many of them for both children and adults.
When he covered up the hole he put that poor little girl in with leaves, he showed that he is intellegent enough. I say he should die for sure. Her father needs to see justice done, anything less than death is completely unjust and wrong.
As it turns out (after reading the article), the IQ score of 71 dates back to 1978 and is therefore utterly and completely obsolete. The far more recent score is 64. This is not surprising given that he has damaged his brain through the use of drugs and alcohol. Again, it’s obvious that he is mentally handicapped.
Yes. The_AIM_Hobo is absolutely right. If he didn’t know it was wrong, why did he hide her?
The learning disabled know right from wrong as well as any of us. You need to work closely with them to understand anything of how a learning disability really works in a human.
Even low funstioning and verbal performance. Don’t listen to anyone who says retard, and to the electric chair with the guy with a 71 IQ.
He should be punished for what he did. Even if he is not competent, he should be put in prison for life. He killed someone.
If a person abducted, raped, and murdered someone, then they sure as hell should be held responsible for it, no matter what their situation.
I look at capital punishment as not only a way to punish those who do violent crimes, but also as a way to rid our society of them, and to curb behavior future criminals.
Not only was this criminal act premeditated, it wasn’t his first offense as he was already a convicted sex offender.
Society would be better off without this individual.
I think someone with an IQ of 71 can still determine right from wrong.
Personally, I think he’s faking it. It isn’t like it hasn’t been done before.
Anyway, my answer is yes.
If not him, how about whoever let him out on the streets. His parents? PRevious offender?
how sad. how about helping our society regain and become whole again …cannot let these things -crime—happen.
Also – prison reform! They should at least do work to pay for their own way! Why should I pay for them? strange systems we have now
apparently it’s high enough to elect them president.
Yes, as is any IQ. I don’t care if you’re retarded or not, any should be eligible for execution.
Of course…now I contradict myself by saying that they should abolish the death penalty and just use life inprisonment more.
Yes.
I’m sorry, but my heart doesn’t bleed for the rapest. Mental retardation isn’t and should not be a get out of jail free card. You tread on thin ice when you start making allowances for people who allegedly can’t be held responsible. Beyond that, is he safe to walk freely about?
If someone abducts, rapes, and murders someone, they are responsible for those actions and should be held responsible for them.
yes.
He should definitely be punished severely for this crime, and I personally think being put in prison would be far more punishing – those felons don’t take too kindly to child rapists and killers…
IQ should have no bearing on his conviction or sentencing….he’s not a vegetable, incapable of conscious thought. The mentally retarded in his range and lthe earning disabled are fully capable of learning and knowing right from wrong. They don’t always make the best choices, but….he planned this – he broke into the house, stole her from her bedroom, raped her (he had to have known what he was doing) and hid her in a garbage bag in a hole covered with leaves.
Look at it this way. A five-year-old knows not to kill people. A five-year-old will not score above “retarded” on an adult’s IQ test. Hang the guy.
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NO JOKE!!!!!
NOW
THE CONSEQUENCES
The consequences are:
If you break the chain letter,
you will have bad luck
in future relationships.
If you don’t
break the chain,
then you will be a
happy camper!!!
GOOD LUCK!!!
Yep, he can be held responsible. Numbers alone don’t prove anything, particularly when it’s right on the borderline. Can he reason? Does he know the difference between right and wrong? These questions cannot be answered by a number.
Dan, those abortion cards were going too far.
well no shit.
this makes me so upset that there’s even any argument here. who cares if he’s retarded?
retarded people dont have a sense of morales?
Yes
he knows his right from wrong
there are some messed up people, and this mans mind isn’t going to ever change. I believe that just because he may or may not know right from wrong, doesn’t mean he isn’t a threat to society. Do we really want to give this guy the chance to be released? If a dog doesn’t know right from wrong and he bites a child you take care of the dog by euthinizing it. Humans are no different from animals, our minds work the same. If we cannot comprehend right from wrong at this man’s age, we will never be able to. As a threat to society, just like the dog that bit the child, he should be taken care of.
Totally dig the tie the guy has on though, really sells his mental disability.
IQ has nothing to do with raping and killing an innocent little girl. He needs to stand trial and be punished for what he did.
This is absolutely ridiculous.
They had his IQ tested after he was charged with his attorney trying to use it as a legal defense? All a score of 71 proves is that Couey is smart enough to fail an IQ test if it means he can get out of prison.
what does IQ have to do with it? If he is able to rape and kill a 9 year old girl, he’s able to be punished for it like any other man.
NO!!
I’m not saying rape or murder are okay, but think about it. When you were in 3rd grade, did you know everything that someone in another 3rd grade class knew? You can’t assume that, just becasue his IQ is 71, he knows everything we associate with a 71 IQ. I’m not saying that he should walk free, but, instead of jail or execution, a correctional institution would be much more appropriate. At least in my eyes.
Also, I’m against the death penalty. I mean, based by most of these comments, anyone who kills should be killed. But what about the people who administers the lethal injection? They’re killing someone, too. All the death penalty does is make a murderer out of someone else.