August 23, 2007
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Mother Teresa and Doubt
Some letters that Mother Teresa had written during her life are being released.
In those letters, it is said that Mother Teresa expressed doubts about her faith. In one of those letters, Mother Teresa is said to have actually doubted “the existence of heaven and even of God.” Here is the link: Link
If a person who has accepted Jesus as Savior of his/her life and then doubts the existence of heaven and even of God suddenly dies during that moment of doubt, does that person go to heaven?
Comments (136)
Doubt is just another part of the human thought process. I don’t think God will take it to heart.
sure if they’ve truly accepted Christ as their Savior and believe in Him and His Words………
yes.
No, she’s under dirt.
Considering that judgment is God’s alone, I can’t say for sure.
Only Creationists go to Hell.
absolutely.
KikeJD
Hell was only created for Creationist and their faithless science.
“Doubt is just another part of the human thought process. I don’t think God will take it to heart.” GunStarHero1988
Nicely put.
We all have moments of doubt, even the best among us.
I’m dead certain that the only people who are going to Hell are those who dogmatically obsess over pushing their zealous views onto other people.
^^^^^ Hahahahaha,. Mostly likely true, DMV.
*oops, Most Likely true*
No, they are buried six feet under, just like the rest of us.
Doubt is a part of human nature.
We can never be 100% sure of anything, so doubt is a given.
God wouldn’t just take away her salvation because she had doubts.
Once you are saved, you are in there for good.
She’s worm food. Don’t take it too harsh, Catholics, if Heaven exists, then sure, she made it. But since I don’t care much….she’s just under ground. : /
I don’t know, you don’t know, no one knows. But I doubt she’d miss the cut because of something like that.
Actions speak louder than words and Mother Theresa did a lot of good works in her lifetime…I’m sure God can overlook a few moments of doubt…Besides, I think all Christians experience some doubt in their lifetime. That’s why it’s called “faith”!
Yes, definitely.
John the Baptist, Jesus’ own cousin had doubts about him being the Messiah right before he was about to be beheaded. So I can understand the doubt she may have….
She has no doubts NOW if heaven is real and God exists~
: )
If Heaven exists, then yes, absolutely.
Mother Teresa saw the worst that humanity had to offer; it’s no wonder the weakness, cruelty and apathy of man caused her to have doubts. But Jesus said, “No one is able to snatch them out of my Father’s hand…” What a beautiful awakening she must have had in that moment of passing, with doubt falling away and love, warmth and joy enfolding her. I choose, even amid occasional moments of doubt and the almost certain ridicule of some of your readers, to believe and have hope. My answer to your question is yes.
Whether or not you have doubts is not what determines whether you are going to heaven. Even when a believer is faithless, God is faithful (2 Timothy 2:13).
noooo. their bodies decompose, just like everyone else’s.
and i don’t see why this is such a huge issue. is she admired for her faith or for her charity work? clearly the latter is more important.
God is supposed to forgive everything. Even murderers will go to jail if they repent.
I much prefer the fire and brimstone Church where everyone is going to hell. It’s more exciting than this white light witchy stuff these new age Xtians spout now.
Heaven doesn’t exist and neither does the Sky Wizard.
We talked about this in my youth group once — about doubting.
I remember my youth minister saying that it’s okay to doubt. I believe that the more you doubt, the more you want to dig deeper into finding out who God is and what His Son did on the cross, which in turn, brings you closer to God.
I doubt a lot but I’ve never lost my faith in who Christ is and what He did for me. =]
Yes, of course.
We are all screwed if you doubting is something that sends you to hell. No matter what, everyone doubts about God, Heaven, etc.
And coming from Mother Teresa, I can see exactly what she “doubted the existance of God”, when she was constantly surrounded by those who were hurting, suffering, broken and dying. I sometimes I still doubt God’s Soverignity and I am not even immersed in those awful realities.
yes
Yes, that person would still go to Heaven, because our entrance into Heaven is not based on what we do – it is based on what Jesus Christ DID.
Of course!
“Nothing can pluck you from his hand”
How the heck would any of us know?
Are you seriously asking this question?
I dont even know how to respond. I guess I am not Christian and do not believe in a Heaven or a Hell so this doesnt involve me.
But if you are a Christian and you say no, I would seriously suggest taking a look at your own life and your own faith.
I’m dead certain that the only people who are going to Hell are those who dogmatically obsess over pushing their zealous views onto other people.
<LI class=itemtimestamp>8/23/2007 6:24 PM
<LI class=itemsubmitter>Drakonskyr (message)
Well said.
People have doubts about the truth, never what is false
Daniel (doubledb)
I’m surprised people are surprised… I think that it is normal to question ones faith no matter what it is… that is how you continue to grow in it.
Thomas, too, doubted.
The article and your snippet brings to mind Christopher Hitchen’s The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice, a damning look at the “real” Mother Teresa and the skeletons in her closet.
The posed question seems a common conundrum of Christianity, and conversely, if non-Christian monsters (Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler) has 5 min. of utter faith on their deathbed does the enormity of all their sins become absolved while recieving heaven’s one-way ticket? As an atheist I have my own dark perspective of things, but I would really like to hear various Christian’s take on the topic.
I think so, probably. Everyone has doubts occasionally, and I don’t think that would be held against them. But I don’t know, only God know a person’s heart.
Not too sure. Non believers have have doubts about the existence of heaven and God. Then, does that make them same as Mother Teresa? No ones for sure. The only way to find out is ask God himself.
yes… because everyone doubts.
”If ours is an examined faith, we should be unafraid to doubt. If doubt is eventually justified, we were believing what clearly was not worth believing. But if doubt is answered, our faith has grown stronger. It knows God more certainly and it can enjoy God more deeply.”
-C.S. Lewis-
Regardless what we do to God, God is everloving and He will never forsake His children.
Yeah – doubt and unbelief are two different things.. heck, I doubt stuff all the time, things about God, life, love, my own sanity…but all the doubt only brings me right back to God and His infinite mercy. And like someone said earlier – even John the Baptist had his doubts.
if there is a God he would understand free will and forgive…
Nope.
I love seeing Christian’s doubt their beliefs.
bellocielo
yes… because everyone doubts.
”If ours is an examined faith, we should be unafraid to doubt. If doubt is eventually justified, we were believing what clearly was not worth believing. But if doubt is answered, our faith has grown stronger. It knows God more certainly and it can enjoy God more deeply.”
-C.S. Lewis-
And more than this, I believe that individuals ought to go wherever intellectually honest inqury leads them: Whether it be Buddhism, Christianity, or Atheism.
Regardless what we do to God, God is everloving and He will never forsake His children.
Except for his those eternally suffering in hell.
Good question. The Bible remains entirely vague regarding that matter. Actually, it remains really vague considering all matters of the afterlife. The ideas of reconciliation and sin just don’t make sense to me. Like I said, maybe if the Bible had a point system…
-David
Doubt is a healthy part of faith.
We all need a little skepticism. It’s called THINKING FOR YOURSELF.
C.S. Lewis wrote a book on grief–and in it he questions everything possible.
Have you read Job? That’s a book of questioning. . .
The Psalms of people crying out to God “Why have you abandoned me?”
You know, I also heard then before death Charles Darwin doubted his theory of Evolution, wanted to take that back.
Not sure if that’s true though?
I don’t know… I’m agnostic. I won’t believe in heaven or hell until someone gives me a physical evidence.
I don’t think that it matters if you doubt him or not….just how strong your faith is.
“If ours is an examined faith, we should be unafraid to doubt. If doubt is eventually justified, we were believing what clearly was not worth believing. But if doubt is answered, our faith has grown stronger. It knows God more certainly and it can enjoy God more deeply.”-C.S. Lewis-
But Lewis knew better.
In order to maintain faith, people must necessarily not examine it in a critical fashion. Consider the conditions under which faith requires to exist: conditions of ignorance, of unknowingness, of unashamed irrationality, absurdities beautified. Because proof is not compatible with faith. Nor is knowledge. The Bible, that priest’s book, starts out with a story in which the moral is that one *should not* obtain knowledge, that one should simply be obedient, regardless of how rational or irrational the terms of obedience are.
Consequently, thinking, and at large, *science* has been thus far the greatest enemy to organized religion. Historically, where it could not suppress it (such as the case with Galileo), it has sought to poison it (such as the case with Intelligent Design).
“Faith, insofar as it is possible, is irrational. Insofar as it is rational, it is impossible.” ~ Look it up.
“People have doubts about the truth, never what is false”~Daniel (doubledb)
What the fuck? Please substantiate your asinine claims as to why the nature of knowledge of truth necessitates that people doubt it. Specifically why people never doubt what is false.
The Christian’s attempts at etymological philosophy are quaint.
*epistemological
<LI class=itemsubmitter>Brown_x_EyeZ “noooo. their bodies decompose, just like everyone else’s.
and i don’t see why this is such a huge issue. is she admired for her faith or for her charity work? clearly the latter is more important.”
Perhaps to you… but to God and eternal salvation, faith is what is important, not deeds. Issymae said it better than I ever could have.
I doubt it.
huginn, normally I would tackle your question… but tonight frankly I”m tired and I have a headache, and it’s truly a big subject. But I want to say this. With God, it’s not a matter of deeds. It’s a matter of the heart. If the heart TRULY repents, even on a death bed, then yes, as unfair as it may seem to you, that person will go to heaven. To me, that’s a beautiful gift. None of us is sinless. Not one. All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. And while we as humans may rate sin, God does not. Black is black. Only through the blood of Jesus can any of us be washed white as snow again.
Do I go on faith? Absolutely. But it’s an educated faith. Not a blind one. I studied many religions before I was saved, even though I grew up in the church. I studied the deity of Jesus Christ, Himself, and I fully believe in my heart that even with all the wrong I’ve done in life, I am saved. It’s a gift… that way no one can boast.
“Except for his those eternally suffering in hell.”
God doesn’t send anyone to hell. People send themselves there.
According to Paul in Romans 8:38, “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” I think that includes us. Nothing can separate us from the love of God and in turn, our salvation through Him.
I don’t think she would sent to Hell over that, I think occasionally doubting your beliefs is normal. This news doesn’t surprise me.
yes.
I sure hope so.
ShortyTheChileHead
but tonight frankly I”m tired and I have a headache, and it’s truly a big subject.
Hopefully a good night’s sleep does it for you! ^_^
If the heart TRULY repents, even on a death bed, then yes, as unfair as it may seem to you, that person will go to heaven.
Okey dokey. My rhetorical proposition of Pol Pot and Hitler was meant as just that: Food for thought (the flip side of the Mother Teresa question). I didn’t meant it as barbed attacks on Christianity. But thanks for your view!
Do I go on faith? Absolutely. But it’s an educated faith. Not a blind one. I studied many religions before I was saved, even though I grew up in the church.
Again, the post you probably had in mind while responding with this wasn’t meant as an attack on Christianity. It was more commentary: Me believing that we should go wherever the evidence leads. If it be Christainity for me, then so be it.
On the topic of faith. I believe any systematic belief requires some sort of a conceputal or evidential “leap of faith.” As young and busy people, we couldn’t have or can’t practically research every claim in the Bible or every theorom or postulates in science and history. We put trust in the experts (theologians, historians, scientists) and overal faith in the larger foundational supports of an idea.
God doesn’t send anyone to hell. People send themselves there.
God sets the rules. He made a conscience choice in how the show is run. In this sense, God “sends” people to hell.
I wanted to remark on what ShortytheChileHead said about Huginn’s comment and offer my own view on it.
The best way I’ve ever imagined condemnation is that we’re all starving homeless people on a cold street. And God is this benevolent old figure standing out in front of a warm house who says, “Hey, come on in, it’s warm in here, Thanksgiving Dinner is every night, there’s plenty of food and shelter for all of you!” To condemn yourself, in the Christian sense, is to refuse God and to refuse that benevolence, so you roam around the cold streets of a broken city for eternity.
Unfortunately there is some method of gaining entrance via deeds (since apparently some sins render you unable to receive Heaven) but this is clearly complicated by other passages that say, “Believe in me and that’s all you need.” Very vague. It’s too uncertain for me to understand.
-David
That’s not for us to say or find out.
Nobody goes to heaven.
Yohsiph
The truth is that you are an egotistical, think you know it all, inconsiderate, spirit crushing jerk.
I hope you won’t try to be cute by responding with a moronic come back.
haha thats dumb… its like haveing a million dollars in ur checking acount… then checking it an beeing like… woah no way… then u look again an there really is… an ur like o sweet..
i think so
I rather like Yohsiph, personally, he’s actually standing up for shit.
Yes. Just because she doubted did not mean that she lost faith in Jesus whom she put her salvation in. Everyone dobuts and has questions. It’s through our dobuts and questions that we grow closer to God. It’s one of the ways we learn.
salvation is permanent…doubt doesn’t change that.
True, Drakonskyr, true. He is, but seriously, does he have to be so annoyingly dickish about it?
I always have to wonder how Christians aren’t overwhelmed by doubt. God “so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son” and then forgot about us for the next two thousand years. What a dick. A moldy old book and hanging out at church with a bunch of judgmental assholes when I was growing up as a pastor’s kid was enough to make me leave Christianity forever.
Doubt is only a sign of intelligence.
That’s why Jesus likes sheep.
Friggin’ flock…
That is all.
I doubt that someone doubting the existance of devine being by rational methods could be blamed for it.
’nuff said…
Who cares? Heaven probably doesn’t even exist.
True, Drakonskyr, true. He is, but seriously, does he have to be so annoyingly dickish about it?
x2
I’m all for people sticking up for what they believe, but do you honestly think you’ll change someone’s mind by acting like an idiot?
GunStarHero
True, Drakonskyr, true. He is, but seriously, does he have to be so annoyingly dickish about it?
Point taken, and I agree. Reasonable exchange happens better on cordial ground. Practically, this means toning down attitude and not uncessarily further points of disagreement (focusing rather, on the particular topic on hand).
Of course, I’m not beyond pointing out people being thoughtlessly glib or really bad argumentation with attitude and sarcasm. But as a general approach, it’s better to be gentle. (Unless one is here purely to troll. In that case, I hope their bridge down falls on them.)
what if someone dies and then accepts Jesus will he take them to heaven or is it too late, so sad, oh well.
Yes. As others have already said, “It is in our human nature to doubt. ” Even Jesus doubted for a moment on the cross, “God, why have you forsaken me?” St. John of the Cross is best known for his writings (Dark Night of the Soul) on the “dry” period we all go through where we do not feel the presence of God. I went through a dry period myself after my parents died. It lasted 3 years. The Beatitudes (Sermon on the Mount) say, “Blessed are the poor in spirit, theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.” So, yes, they will go to Heaven.
This Is Important
I’m all for people sticking up for what they believe, but do you honestly think you’ll change someone’s mind by acting like an idiot?
Boy, you’re optimistic! (or ambitious) I don’t think anyone’s position on politics and religion (the sort of stuff Dan likes asking about) will change overnight or even in the course of a month or two. The most we can hope for, at least, the most I hope for, is to plant good points as seeds for future consideration and re-examination. For the important topics and issues in life, I think we should all consider evidence and ideas for and against our views– we should be pretty darn sure we have things right.
But me, personally, I’m a hack. I enjoy discussion and adversarial debates for the sake of. =)
What about the confidant and confessors who betrayed her by releasing the letters? Will they go to Heaven?
Yes , I believe that they would.
I came here to message you the link to this story,you were a step ahead.
Romans 8
The Bible is very clear that once you have accepted Christ you are “sealed”. No one breaks that seal – not even the person themselves. If Mother Theresa accepted Christ as her Savior, then I believe she is in heaven.
If that person didn’t, no human being could ever enter heaven.
“The truth is that you are an egotistical, think you know it all, inconsiderate, spirit crushing jerk.”~gunstarhero
Sometimes there’s no nice way to tell people that their beliefs require ignorance in order to blossom and strengthen. As I come from a school of thought which holds that there is no such thing as selfishness or altruism, I’d say that you’re just as egotistical than I am, although I don’t see what your criterion for claiming that’s what I am, since you’re a Christian and do not abide by the same tenets as I do. Being combative, argumentative, and insulting do not equal = egotistical. So I’ll presume that when you threw your little tantrum you were at a lack of better terms to describe me. However, spirit crusher was pretty creative, anyone who knows me knows that I would take that as a compliment, not an insult.
Given the inordinate amount of time I spend studying the psyche of people like you, it’s safer to say that I believe there is too much I don’t know. But I’m not going to declare my ignorance of particular subjects ahead of time. Anyone who fights often enough knows not to display that sort of weakness.
Maybe one day it will dawn on you that the only reason you don’t like me is because I’m attacking something you hold so dear that you want to cling to it regardless of evidence. You’ve attacked me, and I welcome that, but I’ll be quick to point out that your ad hominem strategy of attacking the character of a person rather than the arguments they make wont earn you any credibility with anyone who isn’t already like you. And it hasn’t escaped me that I assault people quite frequently, but that criticism comes hand in hand with an assault on what they’re saying too.
My attack on Daniel should serve as a sufficient depiction of both the Christian glorification of absurdities (because his argument isn’t an isolated incident), and my outrage at that. His comment reflects stupidity so great it becomes an enigma. To say that it is in the nature of truth to be doubted and the nature of a lie to be accepted — maybe that’s a Freudian slip betraying to his own secret mode of evaluation with regard to his religious beliefs.
Dunno. It would be sort of funny if one of the most saintly people ever doubted at the moment they died and didn’t make it while some horrible murderer decided to believe in god last minute and did. That’s what you call ironic.
RYC My teacher had the same thing. His nose is crooked because he got skin cancer there. Inconvenient place to get cancer, your face is.
I’m going to say no.
id say she is in heaven i couldnt imagine ne1 living in the conditions she did not experienceing some moments i think God realizes were human an allows a sorta buffer zone of grace
Yohisph
Sometimes there’s no nice way to tell people that their beliefs require ignorance in order to blossom and strengthen… Being combative, argumentative, and insulting do not equal = egotistical. So I’ll presume that when you threw your little tantrum you were at a lack of better terms to describe me. However, spirit crusher was pretty creative, anyone who knows me knows that I would take that as a compliment, not an insult.
Like you, I’m an atheist; and like you, I recognize and cringe at the sheer stupidity of some Christian sentiments or arguments. I do, however, disagree with your methods of handling them.
Yes, indignation may be felt for positions and ideas behind positions; but infusing sharp rhetoric and crude language into a response distracts from the content of one’s own post. It immediately polarizes: Those who happen to already take the same position of us take it in stride but the moderates and fair minded Christians are immedately put off, and all while not really getting to the meat of your content. There certainly are cases where ridicule and sarcasm become the best and most efficient rebuttals, but they ought not be one’s primary tool in the old box. Not everything may be built with a sledgehammer.
Additionally, I find it extremely distasteful to attack a Christian for fundamentally being a Christian. This is “TheologiansCafe,” there’s boudn to be herds of them traveling to and fro. What’s fair game, in my view, are the things they say, the arguments they put out, and the premises behind the arguments themselves.
As I come from a school of thought which holds that there is no such thing as selfishness or altruism, I’d say that you’re just as egotistical than I am, although I don’t see what your criterion for claiming that’s what I am, since you’re a Christian and do not abide by the same tenets as I do.
A nihilist? I’d love to trade ideas of morality and its root with you someday (if not philosphy majors, we invaraiblly come up with our own ideas).
“God doesn’t send anyone to hell. People send themselves there.”~ShortyTheChileHead
I hear this quite a bit in church. The rationale seems to be that people who’s sins haven’t been forgiven through accepting Jesus and becoming Christians is what keeps them out of heaven, because their sins aren’t “washed away” by the blood of Christ, and god cannot tolerate the presence of sin in his kingdom. Lets examine that.
Firstly, I’ll point out that to say “god cannot” do anything undermines his omnipotence, and thus undercuts his godship.
People frequently counter with, “Oh, well then god *will not* tolerate sin in his kingdom.” This is because god hates sin, and most are careful to underline that his hatred of sin does not include the sinner.
However, if god will allow a person he supposedly loves to endure unspeakable torments for all eternity because he hates the sin that’s *somehow* attached to them, then that means to say that his hatred of sin *overcomes* his love of humanity. That is to say, he is moreso a being of hate and not of love, and the Christian forfeits the claim that “God is love.”
Considering also that heaven is a prepared place “for a prepared people” (John 14), and that the Christian also believes that hell is a place prepared by god, obviously, since Christians believe god created everything — one might wonder why he created it so horrible, knowing that everyone who didn’t believe in him, who he nonetheless loves, would go there some day.
Why not just create some other world where we atheists can go after we die?
He either A: didn’t think of it, so he’s isn’t all knowing, or prudent for that matter.
B: Can’t, so he isn’t all powerful. Or
C: Doesn’t give a rats ass, and isn’t omnibenevolent.
“A nihilist?”~huginn
I suppose you could classify me as a quasi-nihilist with respect to social issues. But I prefer to extract the essence of that particular variety of nihilism and apply it to myself as simply being an iconoclast with sympathy for anarchism.
With regard to philosophy I do not define myself as a nihilist. Or a pessimist for that matter, as many have tried to brand me. You know as well as I that atheism automatically acquires a negative character because it is a negation of something many people would rather not do without, in the same way the word faith has acquired a benevolent character, despite being irrational. I actually hold that the essence of Christianity is nihilistic. That it is a devaluation of life and an affirmation of asceticism. The Christian (specifically St. Paul) shifts the center of gravity out of this world and into another (heaven), effectively *denying* this world and this life, which I believe should be our highest hope. I believe that this occurs out of resentment of this life. In short, I view my atheism as a negation *of a negation*… that I negate something fundamentally life denying, and therefore I am positive.
Haha, true Nihilists are without “high hopes.”
Yohsiph
However, if god will allow a person he supposedly loves to endure unspeakable torments for all eternity because he hates the sin that’s *somehow* attached to them, then that means to say that his hatred of sin *overcomes* his love of humanity. That is to say, he is moreso a being of hate and not of love, and the Christian forfeits the claim that “God is love.”
I like this point.
I think Christians may claim confounding circumstances and interject that things aren’t this simple; but ultimately, it seems to me is that this is what things boil down to.
Yes.
I forgot to address your real inquisition: That I might be a nihilist because of my rejection of altruism.
To elaborate, I simply believe that it is absurd to hold that the ego can function *without ego*. Even giving requires getting — nothing is selfless.
Yohsiph
Whoa, study the psyche of me? You are getting ahead of yourself here. You analyzed your bullshit thoughts way too far to call me a Christian! Funny thing is, I never said I was one. Where is all your studying going to?
And why is it that Bittersunday, huggin, and a few other atheists are the only level headed and open minded atheists around?
I thought majority of Atheist views were based on thought, understanding, and yearning to better themselves without a petty religion; and not some way to bash others believe system. I guess, sometimes, I can be wrong myself in evidence of Yosiph’s comments.
Notice I said Atheists- and to whom it may concern, the majority of the people I converse and reason with happen to be atheist, evolutionist, humanist, and agnostics; and so to bring up a person of God isn’t smart enough to stand to your intellect would be egotistically wrong- and I’ve had discussions with atheists, they brought up better and more agreeable ideas than the bullshit brought up by you.
Also notice, that I’m talking about everything I read on your comments and posts; and not making such absurd suggestions that I wish were true- which 1/4 of your comment was made of. Try to make a come back a little better next time.
p.s. I, too, read into Sigmund Freud, and I, again, can throw around his logic; but I would use it in a form of understanding, and not way to “one up” someone.
Yohsiph
I suppose you could classify me as a quasi-nihilist with respect to social issues. But I prefer to extract the essence of that particular variety of nihilism and apply it to myself as simply being an iconoclast with sympathy for anarchism.
Ah, kk. In case you’re wondering: I like to think myself as a libertarian on social issues.
…You know as well as I that atheism automatically acquires a negative character because it is a negation of something many people would rather not do without, in the same way the word faith has acquired a benevolent character, despite being irrational.
Man, I think it’s worse than this. Much of atheism’s negative stereotype has been proactively cast by sympatheis in the church and by historical bias. At the conversational level, I often hear blatantly off mischaracterization of atheists as too “prideful” for God and too selfish. Those theists have either never bothered to get to know a fair minded atheist or am too caught up in the perpetrated lies.
As Christopher Htichens and Ricahrd Dawkins point out in their respective works on atheism, in our society today, it is really as if religion and theism has a rational and moral carte blanche: That it is imprudent to judge religious people and their ideas. Or that we simply suspend thinking when confronted with religious mythology. I think part of the reason is that being drowned in it from the start (early childhood), it’s hard to think of taking the two steps back for grounded consideration.
I actually hold that the essence of Christianity is nihilistic. That it is a devaluation of life and an affirmation of asceticism. The Christian (specifically St. Paul) shifts the center of gravity out of this world and into another (heaven), effectively *denying* this world and this life, which I believe should be our highest hope.
Ha! I agree with this point. Richard Dawkins has furthered this same sentiment as a sort of anti-Pascal’s Wager. I’ve independently arrived to the same conclusion (also as an answer to Pascal’s Wager) a couple years back while on some fourm.
I believe that this occurs out of resentment of this life. In short, I view my atheism as a negation *of a negation*… that I negate something fundamentally life denying, and therefore I am positive
I look to existentialism for this. =)
To elaborate, I simply believe that it is absurd to hold that the ego can function *without ego*. Even giving requires getting — nothing is selfless.
Well put, Yosiph.
^^^^If you find some typo or misspelling in my comments… Bah, I’m tired.
“Whoa, study the psyche of me? You are getting ahead of yourself here. You analyzed your bullshit thoughts way too far to call me a Christian! Funny thing is, I never said I was one.”~Gunstarhero
No, but you’re a member of “Christian’s Cafe” which exists under the subtext of: “Christian xangans discussing current events and other issues from the perspective of faith.”
Which lead me to believe that you were either a Christian, a Christian sympathizer, a person faith grounded in either religion or metaphysics, or a person who enjoyed discussing viewpoints differing from your own. That’s 3 to 1 in favor of the former. Maybe I was mislead, but there’s a distinction between being mislead and being presumptive.
“p.s. I, too, read into Sigmund Freud, and I, again, can throw around his logic; but I would use it in a form of understanding, and not way to “one up” someone.”
Elaborating on how your use of tenets formulated by psychological gurus is somehow more ethical than mine and then insinuating that your method should be a model for usage is egocentric *at best*. Not that I have a problem with it, but you seemed to.
“I thought majority of Atheist views were based on thought, understanding, and yearning to better themselves without a petty religion; and not some way to bash others believe system.”
Maybe you should add another category to your list.
“Also notice, that I’m talking about everything I read on your comments and posts; and not making such absurd suggestions that I wish were true- which 1/4 of your comment was made of.”
Those comments were directed at a *type of person*. If you aren’t a Christian or a person of religious faith, a point still in need of dire clarification, then it could be said that my arguments do not regard you. In that case, they still regard other people *of that type*. And as far as my comments being based on assumptions, instead of what people are writing, they are more or less responses not only to what people write (hence me quoting people verbatim, much more than 1/4th of the time) but also an analysis of what is between the lines, in addition to conclusions drawn about Christians through face-to-face interactions.
“I’ve had discussions with atheists, they brought up better and more agreeable ideas than the bullshit brought up by you.”
OH! Well maybe your problem is that you consider “agreeable ideas” and happy feelings as ‘good arguments’. I believe that it should never be asked if the truth is comforting or fatal. Get over it.
Maybe you’d care to cite precisely what the “bullshit” is in my points concerning philosophy and religion, since, despite being bullshit, you haven’t once even attempted a rebuttal of any of it, but instead reserved yourself to attacking my character (on the grounds that I attack people’s character).
Good night.
Ha, The Christians Cafe, the pathetic excuse to back up a religion. I just joined so I could debate with the owner; not for the title.
I have not attacked your personal character but the character you make yourself out to be. I have not meant to seem better than you in any way, but to point out a few flaws in your approach on yourself. Correct some of those and people will listen more. No doubt, you can and will find many flaws in my character or the character I make myself out to be. But I’m just as human as you are, and I’m working on them.
The bullshit I’m talking about is the severe bashing onto someones belief system. I’m not saying you are wrong, but doing so attacks philosophy. Philosophy was created to understand people and societies; not to torment them. Religion was created to accept people for who they are; though many a-Christians are pretty bad at this.
i don’t believe in hell, so i’d say yes. besides that, it’s good to doubt. doubt hopefully makes you want to research more about faith and religion, which makes your beliefs stronger in the end.
“Doubt is the essence of, not the opposite of, faith.”
Oh yes, it just shows she was very human. We all have times of doubt.
God is bigger than any doubt – even Mother T’s (who happens to be a hero of mine).
I’m not a christian, so I cant really offer too much of an opinion on this, but it reminds me of something that i have heard from my rabbi. There was a discussion of conversion, and it was asked.. “at one point during conversion does a non-jewish soul become a jewish soul?” and the answer was that “the soul was jewish all along, because G-d knows what is in your heart.” So I apply that to this with Mother Teresa. She may have doubted, but G-d knew the reasons she was doubting.
This is quite common. Few also know simliar about the “little flower” the OTHER theresa, Theresa Liseaux. Another saint. Please read “Dark night of the soul” St John of the Cross and “Interior Castle” by St Theresa de Avila. (lots of THeresas) -see my post a few back with wonderful diagram of our life after committment to God. YES. Dark nights……the devil is afraid of such as these.
Not once saved always saved; Once committed to live for others – extreme testing and temptation – enough for all those you would purport to “help”…..Prayers for all who reach….
What drakonskyr said
I don’t know who, if anyone, actually goes to hell – I hope that God will help everyone to find peace when they die. But I’m pretty sure everyone, whatever they believe, doubts sometimes.
Only God knows that answer. And I think doubt is natural. It’s the same as doubting my mom’s love… but I still love her regardless of that doubt. That’s what makes people human.
YES !
We all experience doubt… about everything in life, not just our faith. Doubt is normal, but having doubt in faith doesn’t make you less of a Christian; it simply makes you human. There were times that even Jesus had doubts, but He overcame and persevered through even death on a cross. If you don’t doubt, you aren’t human.
Of course they go to heaven. You may as well say that if you committ a sin and don’t get a chance to pray to ask forgiveness for it you go to hell (which, ironically, is quite similar to what the Roman Catholic church actually teaches!). Our salvation is based on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If his life is in us then we are his and cannot fall away. Doubt does not negate faith, indeed as Karl Barth has pointed out it often strengthens faith. This isn’t contradictory nor am I trying to worm my way out of a difficult question. In order to strengthen one’s worldview it is often necessary to deconstruct and rebuild it in a more solid form leaving out weaknesses and incorporating new data. This process naturally creates a temporary period of doubt. However, the individual knows as they go through this process that the goal is to arrive at the same stance as before, only in an improved and advanced form. Even Jesus experienced this in his human nature; just read the accounts of his prayers in the garden of Gesthemane before his death (an no, I’m not 100% sure that I spelled that right).
you shouldn’t doubt, but that person would go to0 heaven because it says in the bible….”nothing can take you from the lord’s hands”
Doubt is a condition of our humanity.
According to scriptures the answer to your question is yes. Whether we shall see Mother Teresa in Heaven? We shall have to wait and see.
Saintvi said it best, and I totally agree with her. So the answer to your question is yes.
That person becomes more beloved in God’s eyes. It means they think.
The Bible says that true salvation does not hinge on man, but on God’s continued faithfulness. When one repents and trusts the Lord Jesus to save him or her, Jesus takes personal responsibility to fulfill His promise: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16 ESV). Salvation cannot be lost (John 6:35-40).
I think that when one addresses their doubts and figures them out, they wind up closer to what they originally doubted. Therefore Mother Theresa would have been closer to God because of her doubts. And while I can’t say for sure (because no one can) I think she definately made the cut…
I wonder at exactly what point in her life she wrote that? I think you HAVE to ask those questions at some point and usually that’s early on in your faith walk.
Heaven doesn’t exist. So no.
I don’t have the authority to make that definite statement, so don’t take it the wrong way. It’s just what I believe.
God, why is this big news? I remember reading about this years ago
Mother Teresa is by no means a saint. If Hell exists in the manner which it is prescribed, she’ll be a longtime resident. Fucking lying Ho-Bag.
http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/religion/mother-teresa/
Yes. My question would be, if a person of faith becomes stricken with a disease like alchizmers, or Lou Garicks Disease, and behaves in a way abhorrent to God’s laws. Do they go to heaven when they die?
Yes.
what a fucking legalistic question.
according to christianity: of course
Doubt can be healthy. What one does with that doubt is the kicker.
yes
lol oh my crap, if doubt was a reason one would spend life in hell. than i never would have wanyed to be made.
I have no idea.
I’m not religious.
God is very big on “to the letter.” Consider Moses who struck d rock one too many times n didnt get to see d promised land he had been lookin for 40 yrs. Gods petty w Moses, wht r ur chances?
well honestly i dont think tat would happen. tat God would take you away in an exact moment of doubt..unless he knew at tat point you would never turn back to him. But I call tat a more not likely to happen situation
Everyone has doubts and questions. That’s why God created us with intelligent minds.
I think god has a sense of humour.
That’s just rediculous. Does God have a colder heart, less reasoning abilities, less compassion, than we do? Come on now.
Humans are not perfect. It’s part of the beauty, and pain, of being human. So, in being imperfect, everyone sins. It is all to human to doubt, and stray from God. Please don’t kill me for my beliefs, but I believe that it is not your religion that decides if you can go to heaven, but how you live your life. I back up this belief with the fact that there are Christians who beat their wives, Mormons who rape, Jews who kidnap, etc. By this I mean to to illustrate how all religions have their flaws. There are people who attatched themselves to a religion yet are bad people. (those were the the first three religions to pop into my mind, don’t kill me!) And, there are Atheists who do great deeds, as well as bad.
Because of the way Mother Teresa lived her life there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that she has gone to heaven. Wavering faith means nothing when weighed against such good deeds. Plus, look at how small the letter was! She told her friend he was close to God, but that at the moment she was going through a rough time. What’s wrong with that? She wasn’t trying to leave her god or religion, in fact she asked her friend to pray for her so that she could back track and get close to God again! I think it is good that she asked for help instead of struggling on her own. It is sad to me that such letters are being brought out so negatively. She was a wonderful woman and should be remembered in such a favorable light.
~Echoelle
I would hope so but if not then another far far away pleasant land whatever it maybe will do.
Yep, they still go to Heaven