October 25, 2007
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Women in Combat
Law professor Kingsley Browne has written a book and has said that “women are not physically and psychologically suited for combat. Here is the link: Link
Do you think women are physically and psychologically unsuited for combat?
Comments (132)
Not really.
Yes, definitely. Mind you, a PMS-driven woman could do a lot of damage to an enemy.
Physical, hand-to-hand combat, perhaps. It seems like men were created for more adeptness at physical things like that. Also, it might be emotionally harder for combat.
So I change my answer slightly: unsuited, maybe. But that’s a generalization, and doesn’t apply to everyone.
Don’t know. Never thought they were not “physically and psychologically unsuited for combat,” but the book/study would make for an interesting read.
Physically in general, but not all. Psychologically makes no difference.
Not THIS woman.
No.. I’m sure women are built different but there is things that women can do and men can’t do. Vice versa that men can do and women can’t do.. They are just nitpicking about everything..
I know that I’m physically and psychologically unsuited for combat! And I think that deep down, most women are. I don’t believe in having woman in combat..ever.
Not most house wives.
No, we’re not.
As a rule yes. That does not mean that all are ill suited for it I have known some women who would be better suited to combat than most guys. But I have also known some guys who were so ill suited to combat that most women would probably be better.
Oh wow, blame PMS, how original. How about guys always thinking with their penises and just being meatheaded morons? That’s not just once a month, that’s ALL THE TIME!
No. It depends on the person. Some men aren’t fit for the army, some women aren’t fit for the army.
I mean yes.
Wait, crap. “unsuited.” Scratch my last comment.
I think some women aren’t. Some are. I fall into the category of are NOT.
Do you really want my opinion, Dan?
There are some that are and some that aren’t, just like men. Women will have to work harder than most men on the physical bit, but if they can cut it, I don’t see any reason not to let women in combat if they want the opportunity. What’s a law professor know about psychology, anyway?
I read a study like this a while back. It had a lot of good points. I know I’m not suiting for combat, but I can’t speak for all women.
anyone is suited for combat. Put someone in a situation where it’s kill or be killed, and their survival instinct takes over.
Yes and yes, in many circumstances the presence of females in forward combat operations could result in the undermining of team operational efficiency.
Knowing the violence that is done to one another in combat, I’m not sure I’d be psychologically suited to see such carnage done to a woman who might be under my care or protection.
You’ve never dated a korean/vietnamese chick, have you?
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2228205013
I honestly cannot answer that question with any authority.
I CAN answer with some authority what they ARE suited for, with me anyway.
I wonder what California_Gal looks like. She is Asian. you know…
when the pullets start flying and people start dying I don’t think so
I don’t think they are.
bullets* I mean
I know nothing about the military but as for combat, funny about what Slutburger with Cheese says about Korean and Vietnamese chicks. I know both Korean and Vietnamese women who are police officers.
God may have created man, but Sam Colt made them equal. That includes women.
Front sight. Exhale. Pressssssss……
I do believe he is right. No human is made to endure combat. It simply is an evil of this world. A necessary evil given the Fall, but an evil nonetheless. That said, Men are closer to being built and wired for it than women are.
The strongest woman is the equal of a weak man. Weak men make poor soldiers
Yes
I think it sounds like law professor Kingsley Browne is physically and psychologically unsuited for competent thought.
this is an old topic, isnt it?
i guess it depends on the woman
yes. it’s so delightfully refreshing to hear someone talking sense in public, finally!
Yes but who is suited for combat anyway?
Hah. I think most men are psychologically unsuited for combat, as well.
No, we are not suited for it, as hard as it is to admit it.
It would take much longer to get a woman in physical shape for combat.
And I would completely lose my mind if I was made to shoot and kill human beings.
A blow to feminisim?
No…for most. I think there are a rare minority of women who are definitely suited for it though.
I definitely am a believer that men and women were designed to be similar but different and thusly are better at certain things based on that design. Though there are always exceptions. Are most women physically and psychologically unsuited for combat? Probably, but certainly not all.
RYC: Everyone does seem to think so… how curious.
I’m not sure.
I know I sure as hell am not suited for any kind of combat. Maybe psychologically I am (I’m pretty tough psychologically. I have to be). But physically? Hell no. XD I can hardly lift a backpack.
some are some aren’t. as a law professor though what are his qualifications to comment on the physical and the psychological states of women? is it an argument to change the law to bar them from combat legally? i don’t really know what he had to qualify him as a valid commentator on the subject.
are you kidding?? srsly. i’m a fighting MACHINE.
Since you asked so nicely.
I’ll explain from both sides of the spectrum, military-wise and personal experience-wise.
The reason women aren’t allowed in combat are because of the fact that they can bare children. I’ve heard some crazy things from friends who have gone to Iraq. I think the biggest one is “Bunker Sex”. Condoms aren’t supplied in Iraq, you can’t even get them mailed to you from what I remember. I am sure there is a BX there now but I’m not sure they supply them. When females are deployed they are told to bring atleast a 6 months supply of sanitary napkins… Do you get where I am coming from? I fully agree with this…to an extent. People have sex, it’s natural, but in a combat zone? Yes “Bunker Sex”… I’ve heard of women being returned home for getting pregnant in Iraq then getting Article 15′s for disobeying direct order of the No Sex policy over there. It would be a tragic thing knowing a woman was shot dead while she was pregnant. Imagine the outrage of all those damn prolifers… Don’t even get me started with rapings over there…
Another reason women aren’t put into combat are because of a man’s natural reflex to protect a woman. It’s different between two guys, I got your back, you got mine. It’s not like that between a man and woman. That Army female’s name slips my mind but after her comrade died horribly in pain (on video) they have put a lot more rules on deploying females. They normally do TCN duty to Commander’s secretary…
From personal experience…I’ve asked to go to Iraq in the past and I have been denied multiple times. I’ve only known 2 females to go to Iraq in my work centers since the war started. What does that tell you? The two females that went were either married with kids or without kids. I was a single parent without a spouse to “replace me” if something happened.
So to make a long story short…Women are unsuited for combat. All these women saying yes have No idea. The military might say that men and women are equal but they’re not and I’ll be the first to say it and I probably won’t be the last. Women are considered weak in the military and take away from the “mission” because they are a distraction pretty much. There are some women like myself who have to suffer because of what other women before us have done. If women don’t like to hear this then that is to bad, it’s the truth.
derisio,
“All these women saying yes have No idea.”
not ALL the women have no idea.
i happen to.
“A blow to feminisim?”
-Only if a feminist thinks not being able to do all things a man can do equally well makes her have less inherent value.
I believe women are generally not soldier material. They are by and large physically weaker than men and have more of a nurturing, subjective nature.
There certainly are exceptions on both sides, but they are exactly that: exceptions.
This doesn’t mean women aren’t as good as men. Equal but different.
porcupinesol
You happen to know from personal experience?
Physically of course not. I think it also depends on what combat were talking about. Hand to hand combat…no women aren’t physically fit for it in a general sense.
Tell me if I’m wrong, but it kind of sounds like all the valid reasons for women not to be in combat are because of the MEN’S inability to deal with it, not the women’s… O_o
Well I know some vicious women….they look like xena…I guess Xena’s a good warrior? It probably depends on the woman..the manly women would do fine..
Some are suited for combat, but not proportionate to the men. I was in the military and that was my experience.
Anyway, Dan… have you gotten around to reading any Lewis? Last we discussed you hadn’t and I suggested Mere Christianity, The Screwtape Letters, Surprised By Joy, and The Quotable Lewis.
derisio: you could say that, yes. i’m not going off of the fact that i was in the army; that has nothing to do with anything. lots of women go into the military. it has to do with other things that, i suppose, could be compared close enough to where you’d be certain i could be of some use in a combat situation. ha, and paige, dude, you can’t tell me you’ve never seen some VERY, VERY butch women. you know the type. body builders with more facial hair than, well, you know…. heh.
testosterone-filled freaks of nature. you don’t want to mess with those.
I don’t think it’s fair to say they are TOTALLY unsuitable for combat; however, I think I would be intellectually dishonest if I didn’t say that on AVERAGE, men are better suited for the task than women (thanks to the good ol’ hunter-gatherer complex).
But then again, I do believe that once the Army has found a way to harness the power of women on PMS, we’ll become unstoppable.
Oops, didn’t see the physical vs. psychological part.
As for physical comparison, as I said before, men on average are better-suited.
Psychologically? That’s a good question. I’m actually considering the possibility that WOMEN might be more capable of handling the psychological trauma than men, especially given the modern social stereotypes regarding men and women and our dispositions. But then again, I’m inclined to say that the difference in this case is so negligible that it’s virtually the same.
Most, yes.
porcupinesol
What did you do in the Army?
i was 82nd abn. 92R. which was a “stitch bitch.” right before the big mos change up.
in other words, i packed ‘chutes. and jumped ‘em. that’s the only ‘perk’ we get.
but it’s the best form of quality control; we have to test so many of the ones we pack.
what do you do?
p.s. somebody said that no one is really suited for combat. i’d be more liable to agree with that statement, than the one that women aren’t.
i think if anyone’s put in a kill-or-be-killed situation, it doesn’t matter if your little bewbies are getting in the way, or if, boo-hoo your p*ssy hurts, and you’re out of feminine products…
you’re gonna do your very best to survive.
**i meant psychologically suited.
Physically men are better suited to combat.
Psychologically the sexes are probably equal.
I’m a multi aircraft avionics tech. It doesn’t sound cool but it’s a fun career with amazing job opportunities on the outside such as Boeing, Raytheon, Lockheed & Martin, L3, etc.
I agree with stuartandabby.
it sounds cool to me! at least you can DO something with it after you get your 214…
me? i couldn’t do SH*T with mine. so i settled on tattooing instead.
Some women aren’t, but then again same can be said for some men.
Plus, would you mess with a chick with an assault rifle pointed at your face while waiting to pull the pin on a few grenades and chuck at you after shooting you with said rifle in both knee caps???
NO! I also think that women put men in danger in combat….men naturally want to protect women thats their nature.
Could you imagine a women POW? men listening to her get tortured? As much as it would hurt them if it was a man hearing a women would be worse. The romantic relationships would also get in the way.
I think that there are women that are well suited for combat but not all women are suited for combat. I think Dorothy Sayers said it best in “Are women human?” It is not about putting women in one class but rather looking at the individual and what that individual can over.
i mean offer not over. my bad.
I think physically women are generally at a disadvantage compared to men. I don’t know about psychologically. Some women can be stronger than men. I hope this guy has some good evidence.
I would argue that the high rate of PTSD in war veterans suggests that men are not psychologically suited for war, either,
As for physically? Anyone– man or woman– can train for that.
I think it depends on the woman.
Unless women are from the tribe of the mythical Amazons…they don’t belong at the front. Forget about physicality or the psychological aspect of it all…women just don’t belong out there…doing what men have surperbly and historically done for millinium.
Grouping everyone together, you would get a NO vote here. There ARE women who are physically capable, mentally capable, and who have a real desire to serve in that way. I think they should be allowed, BUT, I would not make it mandatory because most women would not want to participate.
I couldn’t do it….Years ago, with PMS, maybe.
Are men ready?
I’m not. . .Physically or psychologically. I guess I can only speak for me.
Papa Bear has always said that he’s not the military “type,” but I’m pretty sure he could be if he had to. He can do the denial thing, that so many men can do — just choose not to think about something. I’m pretty sure I’d be a weeping mess, if I ever saw someone get killed (to say nothing of someone I KNEW). And physically, I’m pretty strong, as women go (and used to be a martial artist), but in hand to hand combat, it often comes down to brute strength. Also, women are WAY more high maintainance physically. Besides the whole period thing (I can’t fight today, I’m bleeding heavily), women need to bathe more than men do. Excessive moisture can cause yeast infections, unsanitary conditions can cause urinary tract infections or kidney infections. Sorry to be graphic, but it’s true.
Biblically speaking it’s not their job to be in combat; women have different roles. But I’m not a woman so I couldn’t really say if they are suited for camobat or not.
But just because I think that women have other roles doesn’t mean I don’t support our troops. God bless them all.
So we’re supposed to take the word of a man who is neither a physician nor a psychologist who says that women are neither physically or psychologically fit for combat?
I’ve seen some mean huge women in this world that could protect me anytime.
I agree with Mr. Browne–I guess I’m politically incorrect.
Generally.
As a general rule, probably more guys are suited for combat than girls. I know I’m not suited for combat. If I can stay conscious by not passing out (which I do often when I see blood – even if it’s just on TV) I’d cry every time someone got hurt.
i’m not.
some are, some arent
physically, the differences between me and women are way overstated. It’s absurd to say that women aren’t physically suited for combat.
psychologically, well, if he is talking about the grotesque nature of modern warfare, well neither are men psychologically suited for it. Nobody is. It shouldn’t exist. It destroys so many people’s mental stability it is quite depressing.
I know when my husband was active duty, while I admired all the women soliders out there, I was hoping if he ever got sent someplace dangerous that he was surrounded by big strong guys that could dead lift his body weight if need be. May make me biased, but hey, I’m looking at the practical side. I know I couldn’t carry a big burly guy out of a combat area, that’s part of what may need to be done.
We do it everyday with our children and husbands on the home front…I think it could work on the war front!
Yeah, thanks for the link.
not necessarily, and its not like ALL men are suited physically and mentally for combat either. Yes, women are not naturally build like men physically, but no need to make such a bold remark
i’m not, but i know women who would do just fine in the line of fire. isn’t it one of those adreneline things once you’re out there? you just go into some sort of primal mode and endure the danger to accomplish the goal? i dunno…
hahaha, Dan you are a monster!! Calling all misogynists!!
wish we were ALL unsuited for combat! but misses the point. Difference in pay, my dear. THIS is what women in our armed services were after, mostly. Equal pay for equal work. LInked to combat experience. Change it….give dignity to ALL necessary and brave jobs, maybe less push for this. Maybe the robots will help. Clone warriors anyone?
I’ve heard that its actually the other way around when women are involved. They’ve said that if a man was to fall in combat, the other men will protect him but continue fighting. If a woman falls in combat, more men would try to help her instead of continuing to fight as its ingrained in their brains to do so; thus maximizing the enemy’s ability to wear them down quicker.
Honestly I don’t know though.
I think men are more efficient to be honest, especially with the psychological ramifications of being in combat like PTSD, but women are certainly not as inept as his interview made them out to be. I would have liked if his interview cited actual numbers.
I think that SOME women are…but so are some MEN.
U know- that guy looks kinda creepy. I bet he belongs to that website for men who think they look like Kenny Rogers ( http://www.menwholooklikekennyrogers.com )
Fuck him in his hairy ass. If women can be cops, fighting at home, and proven that we do it well, why would it be different overseas? And that crap about “well men will fight harder to save an almost dead female comrade, then a “flesh wound” male comrade”. Excuse me, but that’s not our problem, it’s men’s. It’s sexism, it’s nothing but outdated crap. I can fight better then most men, but all I hear at the recruiters offices is a slightly awkward “you can’t…you’re a girl.”
Oh come on…we can’t take Kenny Rogers seriously. I didn’t know he wrote a book. I don’t know if I agree or not, but I did enjoy “The Gambler” album.
No. I don’t think any women are made for combat. They can still be in the millitary; they’ll just have desk duty.
I don’t think I am suited for combat.
some are suited, most aren’t. i know i’m not. my dad always pushed me to join some military force because he never did and he still regrets that. But I know for a fact that I couldn’t handle it. Heck, getting rear ended made me physically sick. i can’t handle combat.
…no.
Most women probably wouldn’t WANT to go into combat, but I don’t think we should limit those who do.
Anyone can be a soldier; one just has to go back a couple hundred years/thousand years, (forgive me, brain’s kind of on the fritz today,) to find women defending their homelands from invasion while the men were out fighting. A woman is completely capable of being a soldier, but;
A) Not every woman is capable of being a soldier,
and
B) Not every man is capable of being a soldier.
However, realistically though, I suppose it begs the question… What do you consider a soldier? Anyone can pick up a gun and fire, but not everybody is made to follow orders, give orders, and the like.
I just made a whole post on it. It got me revved.
I think war does psychological damage to both genders. Just look at what happened to some of the soldiers who came home from Vietnam. As far as the physical, maybe fewer women are suited for it than men, but I don’t think it’s correct to say ALL women are not suited for it.
Is anyone suited for combat? I don’t think so. Men and women should have the equal right to work in the position of thier choosing while in the military though. Now, with that being said, I think if there are certain physical requirements for the job that men AND women should BOTH have an equal standard.
We act like women are not in combat now! Guess what? WRONG. Just because a woman is a cook or part of a caravan shuffling supplies doesn’t mean they don’t end up in combat. If that were the case there wouldn’t be women coming home with permanent injuries. My brother, a Black Hawk pilot, just returned home from Iraq. His girlfriend came with him. Guess what her job was? A door gunner on his helicopter meaning she flew in to combat missions with him. She was on the flight when their helicopter took 6 hits from some kind of gun. Women are already in combat, they are just not being paid the same wage for it, and not getting the titles to go along with it.
Lastly, in the times of advancing military techniques, exactly how strong do you have to be to pull a trigger? It is not like this is the dark ages where people are running around with swords and punching each other to get advancement in a battle. This in the age with radr, night vision goggles, heat sync missles, etc etc. I don’t think a woman has to be stronger than a man to pull a trigger or push a button!
This woman is.
I think we as women do what we have to do, and each of us is wired differently. If I had to get a gun and kill someone to defend my family, I would more than likely rise to the occasion. But, in general, I don’t know that many women would want to be in a combat situation. For that matter, I don’t suppose many men really enjoy it either.
Not all women are unsuited for combat. However, most women are. This discussion came up in my AP Govt and Politics class a couple weeks ago. The teacher looked at the class and asked all the females the same question you asked us. Not one female wanted to think about doing hand to hand combat; It frightened a lot of them. Most males in the class agreed with the females that we (me being a female as well) are not emotionally and physically prepared for such a thing. Men have high quantities of testoserone that they ”run on” which makes them more aggressive and better suited for combat. I realise that it was a poll and discussion of views in a classroom of around 30, but it carries out a representation of other people as well. I know that if it came to a decision that I had to make, I would not want to partake on the field.
Perhaps they would be more useful in planning. They are more good at analysing stuff. Basically I think yes, they are capable. Just that the number are less than men. Not many women like enrolling to become soldiers so we do not really know the extent of their potential.
Ok here is my whole issue with women in the military. Men can be drafted but women can’t. When I ask women if they think they should be drafted they say no. But then if I ask if they should have the option to join they say yes. But to me you can’t have it both ways. Privaleges without responsibility is tyrany and responsibilities without privaleges is slavery. If women can join they should be draftable. But I think that most women don’t think they should be drafted because they deep down beleive what this guy is saying. But they want their rights so they think they should be able to join. If women want equal rights then they should also get the bad things that come with them.
No, they’re not.
Neither are men.
leremyus – I do not believe in drafting women for the military. However, I do not believe in the draft!
Both men and women should have equal opportunity to serve in the military, VOLUNTARILY, and no one should be forced to serve. (This sort of coercion is called SLAVERY. No wonder women don’t want it.)
I think it’s a bad thing when women go into battle, but they made the decission to do it. If a woman wants to be a warrior, no one should feel they can take that right away.
Most women aren’t physically built for it, but can manage once trained. Still, I don’t like women being out there with the men because that’s just one more thing us military wives have to worry about – the sluts. And yes, I’ve met enough of them in the army to be worried about it.
Whatever keeps me the hell out of combat.
Seriously though, overall women are just as suited as men are, although probably there are more men suited for it then are women. We should have equal rights, but let’s face it, men and women really are built differently in general. That doesn’t mean that women should be barred though, let them go through the same training as the men and the same weed out process and if they qualify, give them a chance.
Duh. Men aren’t suited for giving birth. Think what a radical statement this is in academia: “men and women are different”.
Now duck.
I don’t think anyone has the right to ask that. Personally, I know if anyone asked me that in person I’d definitely show them just how capable I am… I find that question insulting. Psychologically isn’t really a factor; at least it shouldn’t be. Ideally (and horrifically) the military trains it’s people to have the mindset needed for combat. Physically, a woman can shoot a gun, therefore she can be in the military.
In ww2 they flew planes, for years now they’ve been in service. Question it, belittle it, psychoanalyze it, it doesn’t matter; it’s not going to change and I don’t think it should. If given the choice, I don’t think the military is ever a good alternative, and I hate that it even has to exist, but and I quote; “Anything you can do, I can do better.”
physically yes, psychologically, no
No. As an Infantyman I work with females from time. They aren’t up to the physical starins, the no showers for 3 weeks, and not to mention being alone with men for weeks ata time. The standard combat load for a soldier is aout 40 lbs for the IBA, 35 for the rack with all the ammo, first aid,and various kit needed for engagements. About 6 lbs for the gas mask, and about 35-100 lbs for the water or other required gear on the back. Thats a lot of weight for combat load, worst case scenario. Not to mention the tenacity, anger, and speed at which combat engagement moves is dizzying even to us males. That being said, I can give them a chance in a training zone. If they pull ALL of their weight without whining, or failing, meeting the same standards, then sure, let ‘em at it. The Isreali female snipers are supposed to be the best in the world, next to Russian female Snipers…for now, though,I say no.
RYC: You’re probably right. Alot of women don’t want to be in combat, but alot of men don’t either. Personally, I’d love to be an infantryman.
Obviously he’s never seen two women go at it in a bar!
Some are
I think that if a woman wants to be on the front lines, being a woman myself…if I was determined enough to do it…it could be done. Many men have been saying for centuries that we are dumber and weaker than they are. Let those who doubt our strength go through childbirth. As for the intelligence…there really are some stupid women. But there are men who equal up to that as well. Neither sex is smarter than the other as a whole. If a woman wants to fight with the men on the front lines, LET HER. I could say so much more on this subject, but I have so many other more important things I could be doing right now…I think I’ll go do them.
women should not fight unless the fighting is done in the kitchen where they belong!
No.
Not if they are scorned or pms’ing … or both!
Uh… personally I know I’m unsuited for combat… but I don’t think it has to do with me being a girl. I don’t think humans are suited for combat.
My rotation this month is at a military hospital so today I was learning about post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). I learned that the estimated incidence of PTSD in soldiers returning from Afghanistan was 11 to 17%. (They don’t have data for Iraq yet.) 11 to 17% tells me that not a lot of people are suited for combat –
Is anyone psychologically suitable for combat?
Obviously, men are built in a way they can handle physical action. Women can too but it takes longer to recover. But women can kick butt too and we’re mentally stronger as well.
Me? I’m not sure. I would probably be scared but don’t they teach you to suck it up?
some women are, some women aren’t. it’s as simple as that. It’s not like shooting a gun is hard to do, but the shooting at someone i couldn’t handle.
I know that I am not and that I don’t know a woman who is.
I also think it is really hard for a man to see a woman die or get injured in combat…Men just have that natural instinct to protect women, and really that can be a BAD thing in war, if women are fighting as well.
Women have no business in combat. I have always said that and I have not changed my mind.
seriously,im an all womens rights kinda girl and all,but when it comes to issues like so,i think it depends on the logical mindset of the female in combat