November 7, 2007
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Cutting the Penis
The Oregon Supreme Court is going to hear the case between a father and a mother in which the father wants to circumcise his son. The mother does not want the son to be circumcised.
The boy is 12-years-old. The mother had custody first but the father is now the custodial parent. The father is claiming that he has a constitutional right to raise his son according to his religion. Here is the link: Link
Do you think the father needs permission from the mother to have the son circumcised?
Comments (159)
wow that’s tough. I should ask some of the family law professors here…
nope.
I don’t think so if he has custody. And what does the boy think? He is 12, he should have some input too, it is his penis being cut.
Yes
I think unless it’s done for a medical reason, the 12-year-old should make the decision.
nope.
The kid’s 12!! I’d say the father better talk to his son about this!
Anyway you look at it, OUCH!!!!!!
they should leave this kid alone.
maybe he should ask his son if he wants to have his penis mutilated… i’m sure he has an opinion…
Why don’t they ask the kid? I’m sure HE has an opinion on the matter…it is, after all, HIS body they’re trying to control.
I would think tht a 12 yr old should know if he wants to be circuncised or not.
But it is something that both parents should agree on.
Why not ask the opinion of the one it is or is not going to happen to…the 12 yr old!
I think the father should get permission from his son and no one else. Holy Smokes!!! This guy thinks his son is chattle!!!
not sure.
I would think not, but poor kid…
What’s the harm in letting the kid wait until 18 to decide on his own??? JEEZ.
if the mother has custody then no
but why is this kid 12 years old
i thought they did it when you were born
because with out being circimsided it could cause helth problems
I think it should be up to the kid. =/
ouch, it’s really his son’s dission.
It should be what the kid wants. He’s 12 years old!
The kid has the right
Yes, what does the kid have to say about it?
i… just noticed the title of this post. and cringed.
If the 12 yr old boy want the snip-snip. So be it.. He is old enough to decide with the advice from BOTH parents.
What about the boy? They should have the boy interviewed separately from his mother or father, make sure that he knows what is involved in getting circumcised and let the boy make his own decision. It is his body.
From what I’ve read circumcision later in life is a painful operation and the recover is very uncomfortable.
I’m glad the mother is sticking up for her son and making sure that it just isn’t rammed down his throat . .. or penis.
The kid should make the call. He should know all the factors.. medical risk, religous reasoning, family tradition, etc. Than after he knows whats up he can have say over his own body.
I think the son will really appreciate what his father is trying to do when he grows up and his “member” doesn’t look like an ardvark’s nose.
How about asking the son instead of forcing him.
what does the son think? oh goodness
a thing like that should be done when the son is a baby and not 12 years old – ouch. poor guy.
I think the son should choose at that age and the parents should shut up about it.
Daniel (doubledb)
Ouch !
Thats gonna Hurt at the age of 12- I think the Kid who’s Penis it is- Should decide. !
nohe shouldn’t. but maybe you should ask the KID.
At 12 years old, I think the father needs permission from his son.
On another note, I think it is funny the google adds at the top of this page are for penis clamps and FDA approved penis pumps.
Have a great day!
The boy should say yea or nay.
…I think he needs permission from the son above all else…
jesus. the kid’s 12. cut him some slack. (no pun intended) LEAVE HIS PENIS ALONE!
just leave the kid alone!
No.
But he should ask his son, though…
I think both parents should be in agreement if they want to force a life-altering, completely unnecessary cosmetic surgery onto their child, no matter what the child’s age. I don’t want to have my son circumcised and I’ll be damned if the courts say otherwise.
The article claimed that the son was to afraid to speak up, it’s a difficult thing to have to decide. With the father converting, and taking the son with him; it poses some really tough decisions. Is a child of 12 emotionally ready to make a decision that will permanently change his body? There are reasons why you can’t legally get piercings or tattoos at that age without a parent’s permission. On the flip side, a parent should be very careful in saying “your getting THIS done. However, biblically speaking the father is well within his rights. The father is the head of his household and holds final say. I realize this will not be a popular response, but I think that the father is within his rights, it would be one thing if the child was objecting vocally and was saying I don’t want to do this, I don’t want to live here or anything. I will be praying for this family.
I’m surprised that so many people think that the kid should decide – but then again, not really in culture. As if he was capable of making a mature decision at 12 years of age. There’s nothing to regret being circumcised, and the longer he waits, the more he will regret it if he wants to do it later. They have shown that there are indeed health risks without circumcision.
Not sure the age in Oregon when they can pick which parent to live with. BUT, I really think the kid should decide at this age.
Oh, and to all those people saying “But he’s 12, it’s going to hurt!” Infants experience heightened pain sensation and are given no anesthetic for circumcision (unlike adults, who are obviously more important). Instead, infants are strapped down, have their foreskin painfully retracted, have a bell clamped to it, and a scalpel is used to remove what would otherwise become a foot of extremely nerve-sensitive, protective skin. Trust me, it’s going to hurt no matter what age it gets done.
Oh my goodness…that is crazy. If the parents have joint custody then yes, the father needs permission from the mom. But what 12 yr old kid wants that done? Craziness!!
i think the boy is old enough to choose for himself…
It might be different if he was still a baby…But the boy’s 12….Let him make the decision about the incision!
It’s the kids descision at this point. You can get away with just doing it when your kid can’t talk. But you waited too long.
Yes! That is a major decision about a child that must and should be agreed upon by both parents. It’s not like he’s taking the kid to get his hair dyed, we are talking about stripping his penis!!! Just because he has custodial custody does not mean that he can deny the boy’s mother her right to have a say so in the major, life altering events that take place. Not only that…un, it’s the boys penis! I can understand if he was an infant, but this kid is 12!!! I would think that he should have a major part in the decision making process!
first of all, the kid is NOT JEWISH. in order to be jewish, your mother has to be jewish, there are NO EXCEPTIONS to this unless you are one of those wackjob Jews for Jesus or Messanic Jews which are not Jewish in any way shape or form.
The judge needs to check out some REAL RABBINC laws, this case is a no brainer.
I think they need to make sure the son is ok with all this!!!
Morning Dan
Yes!
12 years old? -.-
Wow, it should be up to the kid.
But in seriousness, you should circumcised the penis of a baby, it actually helps keep you from contracting STDs more than un-circumcised penises.
I think both parents are being very selfish, and it has nothing to do with religion.
I think both of the parents as well as the 12 year old need to make this desicion. Ultimately, I’d go with what the kid wants because, hey, it’s his penis. Unless there is a medical reason why he needs to have it circumsized, then let him decide what he wants.
Definitely should be the kids decision at that age. Oucheee!
I’ve attended newborn circumcisions. Really the only thing that seems to bother the baby is the fact of being tied into the papoose board. As soon as you let them go they stop crying.
I agree with Chesty620. The judge should ask the boy if he really wants to go through the operation at this point. It is a bit painful, by the way. Since the boy is also the mother’s and the father’s, probably the mother should have a say, too. What a mess this world is sometimes.
how about permission from the son?! he’s 12 years old! talk about pain…
What does the 12 year old think? Does he want this?
It should be the kid’s choice. Or, if the parents can’t agree that his choice is valid, let him wait until he’s 18.
Cut that thing before he gets much older. I had a friend in the ARmy, true story, who later tried to have it done and it was difficult. Also I think its cleaner.
Its easier when Mr. Nuggles doesn’t have to travel down the rabbit hole to come out.
How is calling circucision mutilation in anyway shape or form tolerance?
I firmly believe that the custodial parent should have the say. I have been at odds with my ex husband over issues regarding the children, custodial parent hands down!
Spoken like a man with his foreskin in tact.
Nidan, if you kleave it like it is it takes two hands to wash it.
I was circumcised when I was just a baby, I suffered no physical or psychological harm. according to the article the kid studied and decided that he wanted to convert knowing it required circumcision. All the kid has to do to end this if he truely did not want to be circumcised is to not convert. the only one that seems to be making a fuss about this is the mother who is the one that claims the child doesn’t want to do it. so all of the respondants to this that say to ask the kid what he thinks, the kid already decided by wanting to convert. Now unless he has changed his mind which 12 year old boys are inclined to do, then I say the father and the child have spoken majority rules and so the kid gets the knife.
Maxx: I wouldn’t know anything about that!
Seeing as I am circumcised.
I think the BOY should be asked since it’s his Penis.
I say the kid should be told the good things and bad things about the surgery and then let him decide.
At 12 years old, it is the decision of the child whether or not a bit of important skin is permanently removed from the penis forever. Or it should be anyway…
yeah it is really nice to play sports with other christian kids. Our school sometimes plays non-christian school and our reffs kick kids out if they swear
its nice for your kids too sports brings kids closer together:]
I think the kids should decide. And yes, I think both parents should be in agreement with whatever he decides. But, holy cow!! Does he know how painful that’s gonna be? My older son is circumcised, but my younger is not. It is a very pointless operation. I wish we had done more research before we had our first son done!
shouldn’t the son deside what goes on with his own penis. what happened to men’s/boy’s rights when it comes to their own body…. this is reminding me of that whole abortion thing with womens rights and all that.
I’m not sure. I think the child should make his own derision being 12.
Also I tagged you. You should tell everyone 8 random facts about yourself Dan.
That should be made illegal. It’s a twisted, barbaric custom.
Yes, all three should be involved, especially now that the son is old enough to understand the issue at hand. However, if the circumcision is so important to the father, why did he wait so long to press the issue?
Dude!!! Has anyone asked the boy if he wants to have this procedure done to him?!?!
Too bad the kid’s not legal… because I think it should be up to him.
The boy should be old enough to have an opinion on the matter. Then the parents need to agree.
yah. I agree. this needs to be discussed with the boy along with a physician and a psychologist. I mean, there has to be a reason why it is performed on babies. But what EarthsAzureLight stated isn’t entirely true. If the kid is out having unprotected sex, he’s going to catch something regardless of him having foreskin or not. The risk has just been lowered a bit. This website http://www.pedsurology.com/circumci.htm has excellent information along with Googling the pros and cons. I hope that this doesn’t traumatically scar the boy, the whole fighting that his parents are going through.
The custodial parent should have the right, but I think at 12 the boys wishes should be taken into consideration.
ryc: Thanks for the welcome. Yeah, I’m new to all this.
yeah, if the boy’s 12… that’s old enough to know if you want your penis to be in pain or not….
I say just chop the kid’s foreskin off and get it over with.
Unless.
The kid can convert his father to Buddhism in a timely manner in order to avoid the operation.
If the father has sole custody then it is between him and his son, however if the mother has partial custody it should be decided by both parents and the child, but good grief why is he trying to put his son through that?
I personally feel for the kid, having received that surgery when I was ten or eleven. Ug, God. The kid should definitely be giving some feedback into this equation. However, I think the father doesn’t need the mother’s opinion if he has custody. Not that I’ve done research or anything, just a gut feeling.
-David
The child says he wants to convert. He already has made his decision and in my opinion that is what matters.
Though, I think this should not be done for sake of religion, it should be done for medical reasons. As mine was.
-David
I would seriously doubt if their insurance will pay for a 12 year old electively to be circ’d since it now requires an operating room and more complications. Babies are much simpler but they are still in much pain (unless they have a nice doctor that gives them pain control).
I’m sure he’s at the age where he’s concerned about looking more like his peers. I say a court appointed representative should determine whats the boy really wants and for what reason. Parental decisions shouldn’t count.
The court should appoint a legal guardian for the child to make sure he is protected.
If the child really wants to convert to Judaism, he should go through the classes or whatever the religion requires and then come back to the circumcision issue.
I know someone who had the surgery as a young adult and it was incredibly painful as it is for infants. The American Pediatric Association has gone back and forth on whether it is a needed surgery. It seems their latest stance is based on men are too lazy to keep themselves clean so it might be a problem so cut off the foreskins of baby boys. Really it seems quite barbaric.
they should have done it at birth, it should be left up to the boy to decide at 18 now since it is more dangerous after the penis is formed it should be his choice. this is just a stupid way to get a custody case re-examined.
This kid is old enough to decide about the fate of his own penis.
i love how the parents are like trying to clam a kids cock… if i was the kid id say what took u guys so long to have this convo??? this is suposed to happen when he comes out… not when hes 12… idiot people…
let the kid pick…
ryc: korean clubbing is different then regular clubbing where as you have to get a table. not only that they have this thing called booking where the waitors take girls to guys tables. sometimes they’ll have promo tables for girls where you only get a half bottle of liquor and it’s a lot cheaper. so girls go booking so you can meet guys and usually get shots from them. and guys go korean clubbing because they know girls will be there. hahaha.
I’m willing to bet if you asked the son’s opinion (and since it’s his body and it’s not a medical issue in question, it should be his decision), he’d say he doesn’t want it. Tradition is to do it when the baby is 8 days old, not when he’s 12 years old. If the father wants to raise the son in his religion, that’s his choice. But at the age of 12, I think the son can make up his own mind what he wants to believe. His father can teach him his religion and if the boy wants to be circumcized, he can make that decision. But since he’s nearly a teenager, his beliefs and how he chooses to act on them should be his choice.
Yes…but just leave the kid alone!
The child should definitely have a say in the situation. But since the dad is the custodial parent, he has a lot of say in it too.
So apparently minors have absolutely no rights.
12 years old! I would say at this point it’s up to the kid.
Maybe they should ban HORRIBLE PENILE MUTILATION entirely…
Well except for stupid people. But then they should cut it off entirely.
yes, but the kid’s input should be most important.
doesn’t the kid have any say in this?
WHAT!?!?! The poor kid is 12… i think they’ve lost the window of opportunity to circumsize. I know it’s*possible* later in life, my heavens no, don’t do that to the child now!!
I think at this point, maybe someone should ask the boy.
i don’t think twelve years old is old enough for someone to make their own decision. that is why everyone under the age of 18 is under their parents authority. i think the right belongs to whoever is holding custody of this child, which is evidently the father.
At 12 years old, its the boys decision, no one elses.
it seems the time for religious circumcision has passed in a sense. At this point it must be the boys decision. I would say the parents need to agree, but also that the son must agree at his current age. I would also say that in the case of a baby, the parents must agree.
Since it is the boy’s penis that is going to be cut, it should be the boy’s decision regardless of what the parents think. The parents are not going to permanently be attached to their boy’s penis while the boy is going to have to live with it for the remainder of his life. At 12 years old, he is certainly old enough to make this kind of decision. I hope the court appointed the boy his own attorney to speak for him in the event he is unwilling or unable to deal publicly with this issue.
Both parents have to show up at the post office to get a passport for a child. It makes sense that both parents should consent to surgery.
Perhaps the boy should read this article first –
The Great Uncircumcision Debate
The father should be able to do it without permission from the mother, so long as the son agrees. However, this best-for-the-circumstances ruling still has its downfalls: the parents will be pitted against each other in the child’s mind and he’ll have to decide whom to believe.
why do I get the feeling that Dad is using religion as an excuse and just wants his son to have this supposed “normal” penis?
I would really like to know if anyone does it for Religion anymore. Because it is just pretty mormal now….and uh clean. I didnt want to hurt my son, but I knew we needed to get it done. And t I knew it was better emotionally to be like everyone else and the cleanliness part.
It’s not the father’s constitutional right. That extends as far as his own body. Minors have exactly the same rights as adults, minus possession of real estate, ability to drink, drive, smoke, gamble or hold office, and certain contractual obligations.
GOOD GOD HE’S 12! Do you want to freakin traumatize the kid?!
Um… what does the SON want?? I mean, it’s his penis. At 12 yrs of age it’s a much more traumatic and risky procedure. Personally, I think the father can teach the son all about his religion and bring him up in those ways, but let the son himself decide (either now, or at 18, or whatever) if he wants to be circumcised or not. At this age, I’m not sure it should be anyone’s decision but the boy’s.
Mr Nuggles doesn’t want to get cut…….but he hates the confining suffocation of the foreskin!
I’m cracking myself up writing this junk! ROFLOLWWSONAFWES
(Rolling on flor laughing out loud with water shooting out nose and farting with each snicker)
Woooow.
Too bad the boy should make the decision, not the mom, not the dad, not the religion.
The kid is 12 yrs old!
Its unnecessary surgery!, yes surgery…why would you do that to your kid, things can go wrong…do want that over you as a parent,God does not care if your circ or not…its the heart!
I don’t know. Shouldn’t they be asking the son instead. It’s his body plus he is old enough to decide for himself.
From “myself_undefined”
“I don’t think twelve years old is old enough for someone to make their own decision”
Sorry, I don’t come from US but Canada. But saying this is just absolutly terrible and degrading the society. We have to promote everyone’s right including children, no matter what. 12 years old, that’s is not small, that’s like 7-8 grade. You know how to speak, to think, to do almost everything, not old enough? There is no age for anything. Everyone no exception has rights. Think that twice, if you were 12, and your parents want you to change sex and you have no rights as you are saying, are you going to be happy?
I say as an evoluated human in an evoluated world: “0% mother, 0% father, 0% religion, 10000% kid decision. No turning back. 0% = no negociation!
REMEMBER ALL THIS FOLKS: PARENTS GIVE LIFE TO CHILDREN, BUT THOSE LIFES BELONG TO THE CHILDREN, NOT TO THE PARENTS.
Discussion should end there.
From doughhgirll
“God does not care if your circ or not”
rofl I agree 100%. that’s funny tho. Like *if God ever existed*, why the HELL would he give a **** about circ LOL He has others major things to take care damn, like to bring back peace.
Children aren’t allowed to decide for themselves in court until the age of 14. If the father wins then he can do whatever he wants. But no, he doesn’t have to have permission.
Any father who makes his son get a circumcision when he doesn’t want to, especially when he is clearly old enough to understand what’s happening to him and why, is a crappy father in my humble opinion. I don’t care how ‘religious’ he thinks he is, that’s not okay.
i think the boy is old enough to decide for himself.
Has anyone asked the son what HE wants? That would be my first thing to settle. Then, depending on his answer, I would be able to deal with the parents. This is just something that should have been taken care of a birth. It can be very traumatic to a 12 year old boy. While, I believe in circumcision, I would not impose that on a boy who is entering manhood. It would totally have to be his decision.
At this point, I think he needs permission from his son.
I think it should be his choice.
Since he is already twelve years old… let him make his own decision or wait till he is 18 and let him decide. What an odd thing to take to court… but nothing should surprise me in this world. Poor boy, this must traumatize him… the world discussing the state of his penis!
uncircumcised penis = scary looking!
How about permission from his SON?
The boy is 12 years old. How about asking him.
I agree with what firewillconsume said. What does the boy want? The mother does have custody so it should be very important with her decision. Also why doesn’t the dad have custody? If he is not a good father, he must not be very well at being a parent and making decisions for himself and his son.
“Opponents of circumcision condemn infant circumcision as being medically unjustified and an infringement upon individual bodily rights, while advocates of circumcision regard it as a worthwhile public health measure, particularly in the control of HIV.” -Wikipedia.org
If you are a good parent, you will teach your child to be safe sexually and there would be no problem. HIV is usually spread my non-protected teenagers and adults, usually with non-married couples. When in marriage you know if your spouse or partner has any sexual diseases.
Also, I avoided this post because of the name. But I am happy I read it. If you want more people to respond, I wouldn’t make uncalled for titles…
I think they should ask their son whether he wants to be a girl or not.
12? circumcision? how traumatizing!
He’s TWELVE. By this age, I’d say it’s waaaay more up to the boy than to either parent.
Um, the mother birthed the kid. She should have a say.
He;s not going to die without circumcision. Besides 12 – 15 is massive for development, to cut something off during that time, i just think it would be bad
Umm… I think the real person he should ask is the son. I mean, it’s his penis they’d be cutting. He’s old enough to decide which religion he wants to follow. And he’s the one that’ going to be in alot of pain if he decides to get it done.
If they were still together, then yes. But considering the father has custody…he should be able to make the choice, with consent from the boy.
In either case, why is this boy being circumcised at this age??
I think it should be up to the boy.. He is 12 afterall but I’m guessing he is probably NOT looking forward to the procedure..
Of course the mom should know. and why didn’t the dad tell the mom? Cutting their son’s penis is a secret? If mom won’t give permission for her son to get circumcised, take her to the doctor, so the doctor will tell her the advantage of circumcising. Sure it’s good for health.
BELIEVE ME SIR WHEN I TELL YOU I GOT MY WIFE’S PERMISSION! Otherwise there’d have been hell to pay!
Nope. Plus, it has health advantages for the kid.
At 12 I think it really needs to be the boys choice. He should have ultimate say over his body. True he is a minor, but at 12 wow to have that put on you without your consent? No way.
You know apparently we can view girls as victims when circumcision is forced up on them, why cant we see that the boy may also be a victim?
If he wants it, by all means
Look it was done to me as an infant, I’ve no memory of it, but if you had asked at 12, I’d have opted out. Had it been forced on me, I dont think I would have a positive relationship with my parents today.
Ask the boy if he wants to be circumcised.
It is a medically unnecessary procedure and so the boy should have the final say. Its his body.
None of my children are circumcised. If any of them want to be when they grow up they can but if you do it to them as a child they can never get back what you took from them.
what about what the boy wants? i think at 12, you’re old enough to decide if you want your penis altered.
yes he needs permission. What religion is this by the way?
I think they should ask the boy instead of relying on the parents…
he’s 12. he’s old enough to decide if he wants to get snipped.
Shouldn’t that be up to the kid? Esp. things regarding to his belief.
He’s 12. He should be able to decide for himself.
hell yeah
not if the father has full custody of the son, he gets to decide what happens with his child.
I’d think the legal guardian gets to make the call.
this is usually done when the child is very very young…. I think the child at the age he is now has the right to decide for himself one way or the other
I say at 12 ask the son.
I don’t know. You’d usually think that both parents would equally have to settle on a single choice but at this point it should be the son’s choice. i mean, he’s 12 already.
> I think ‘He’ should discuss it with his son, i.e. all the aspects of the reason for the procedure. Religious, medical, etc… You know, an ‘informed decision’ for the boy…. Excuse me, but if the boy is a non-believer, not Hebrew, etc. he shouldn’t have to suffer the pain of the healing process…. Delude yourselves all you want, the procedure may have anesthetic but I don’t care how old anyone is at the time of this procedure, IT STILL HURTS!!! Awfully cavalier of the adults in question to force this on someone, anyone, with the mental salve of ‘Aw, he’ll get over it…. UP that noise!
Peace, not pain, how stupid!