December 10, 2007
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Church Shooting
A church shooting took place in Colorado yesterday.
The gunman was killed by a security guard in the church. Here is the link: Link
I took note that there was an armed security guard in the church yesterday and then saw that a friend had noticed it too.
Jesus told his disciples to “turn the other cheek.”
“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.” (Matthew 5:38-42, NIV)
Is it consistent with the teaching of Jesus for a church to have an armed security guard?
Comments (83)
Since when has Christianity been about Jesus’ teachings?
no
self defense, not all killings are murder
Um, well one of the commandments states “Thou Shalt Not Kill” so I don’t think the gunman follows any of the teachings. The bible was also written before any firearms were invented, so I think it’s just modernizing. And protecting the ones that DO follow.
However, it is really sad we live in a time when we need security guards in church…
If they want to feel safe in their house of worship, then having a guard is a good idea.
I would go with no, but I would also probably not attend a church that was in danger of a shooting with out one present.
I agree with cuteluvr21. Churches should be a place of peace and worship, not potential shootings and fights.
Aww! Thanks for the gift!
LOL
The sad statement in today’s world is that security is needed in most large gatherings.
Having a security guard yes, but an armed one…probably not.
“However, it is really sad we live in a time when we need security guards in church…” <- I totally agree.
Self Defense, is ok.
No, it’s not.
actually perseykhad, the commandment says “murder”, not “kill”.. the connotations are a bit different, murder is cold-blooded.. the gunman who shot the guard, for example..
no, it is not consistent, it has nothing to do with the teachings, the church is probably situated in a really rough neighborhood and the people who go to that church want to know they can worship in peace.. having a security guard to prevent riots from spilling in is a useful tool to that end..
See then I start thinking about how Christians fight in wars and how that is justified by most religions and church’s.
Very confusing. I was reading an article today and it ended with this.
The war criminal, the aggressor, the practitioner of genocide and the terrorist are not fading from the scene. In such a world, only the presence of effective military forces makes possible the maintenance of relative peace and security in international politics. Voluntary service in support of that relative peace is a self-sacrificial Christian calling.
No it’s not.. obviously. People who say it’s ok or yes is wrong or they’re not actually answering question.
That is so sad that they actually needed one…I totally believe in self defense…But strangeness that the church had an armored guard.
The World is Strange…And growing stranger!!
This is why I’m a member of the Church Of Lee Marvin Saves.
He’s fifty-seven times more efficient than Jesus!
Churches ARE a place for peace and worship, and so am I along with my personal property.
Unfortunately, these are the risks of a free society.
I was totally oblivious to the fact that churches have security guards!
Probably not, but it’s a very logical and practical thing to do. I’m sure Christ would prefer it if the church didn’t have an armed guard, but I don’t think he’ll condemn anyone to hell for it.
Of course, I’m no expert on who else is being condemned to hell.
Hmmmm that is an interesting thought. I too thought it was weird that they had a security guard at all even more so an armed guard. However the passage in Matthew is not talking about NOT protecting yourself, that passage is really discussing revenge and repaying evil for evil. I don’t think the motivation for having an armed guard is for revenge but for protecting oneself.
The true translation of the “Thou shalt not kill.” command is thou shalt not MURDER, which is very different from killing. Soldiers kill, they don’t murder, they are protecting something as well.
Unfortunately in this world no where is safe from shootings and killings. An interesting question, if you were in that church at that time, would you have been relieved that the shooter was killed and not able to do anyone else harm? You and your family included?
So my answer, I don’t think it’s inconsistent with Jesus’ teaching either. He doesn’t ever state, “Don’t protect yourself when you are in harms way.”
so, it would be so much better just to have the congregation all killed than to protect them? if you know that you live in a dangerous area it is unwise not to protect yourself or the people that have placed themselves under your protection for a time. i think God will understand.
Jesus said turn the other cheek, you only have two of those, I wont strike first, or second, but the third is mine.
ryc: Ha! Yes, but it’s backwards: my goal is to get my entire freshman fifteen during the last week.
Security is to assure us it’s alright
To give us confidence in mankind
Because we don’t have enough faith in God.
Am I saying you shouldn’t have security?
No. Just that it shows you’re wise in turning to man to help with problems from man. . .
It’s quite strange…
Many before me have touched on the translation error of the commandment, and that Jesus was talking about revenge and forgiveness. I am curious if the “armed” part of security was in regard to the present danger….
I am not a fan of the “mega” church, simply because it is too big, so I really can’t comment on that portion. I don’t think it goes against biblical teachings per se, but I don’t think I would want to feel like I must worship under armed security.
I was more alarmed at the presence of an armed security guard in a church than at the presence of a shooter. There will always be evil in the world, but followers of Christ are supposed to be different in how they responsd to evil. A Christian by definition is one who follows the teachings and example of Christ. I don’t know where Jesus taught us to protect ourselves at the expense of another’s life. I do know he said “do not resist an evil person” and that his followers should expect persecution. I think the families and victims of the amish school shooting have proven themselves to be more in line with the teachings of Jesus in their quickness to offer forgiveness and to resist revenge/retaliation, leaving justice in God’s hands.
Since when has Christianity been about consistency?
I don’t think so. God is our ultimate protector, if it is your time to go an armed guard is not going to stop it. If it isn’t your time to go an armed gunman isn’t going to change that either. I don’t claim that that is an easy answer either.
After reading some of your comments I wanted to add that accept for the Ted Haggard connection this church is not in a bad neighborhood it has over 10,000 people who worship there and is actually a beautiful and well put together building. I mean its Colorado Springs nothing there but military bases and churches.
Nope, it isn’t.
I think we should be asking, “What do mega churches have to do with the teachings of Jesus?” “Are the mega churches faithful to the gospel of Christ, and obedient to His word?” “Do they represent the humble and meek teaching of the Lamb of God?”
TemporaryAid asks a valid question, but should be phrased, “What in modern Christianity is really about Jesus’ teachings,” because much of the traditions we find in today’s churches has little to do with Jesus Christ.
Easter eggs, christmas trees, expensive presents for each other instead of for Jesus, and many other things have nothing to do with Christ and the gospel. People give expensive gifts to themselves and their families, but write a $10 or $20 check at church or for a charity.
no and there are not security guards at my church. however my church also has a policy of non-involvement in politics as a diocese so perhaps it is different than all the various protestant denominations who have a policy of agenda pushing. just a thought. not that it is ok to shoot up a church or any place for that manner, just an observation.
but the real issue here is what is up with the weird middle states and violence? the majority of RANDOM violence i hear about it happens in the weird middle states which pretty much validates my never visiting them policy!
ROFL when I heard that news cast on the radio, I looked at my dad, and he looked at me, and I said, “Church Security Guard? Really?!” Seriously, I’ve never even heard of that.
No, not at all. After this, more churches will no doubt hire security guards. It tells us in the New Testament that Christ’s disciples carried swords on their person and he voiced no objection to this. I’m glad the church had somebody to protect them. I’m also glad he was able to stop this nut before he killed more innocent people.
yeah, it’s very consistent actually. Christ Himself even told his disciples without swords to go buy them. read Luke 22:35-38.
There are a lot of things done in the name of Christianity these days that are inconsistent with the teachings of Christ. I think people are making up rules and doctrines as they go. If it sounds good or brings in money – do it. If you really read his teachings – whether you choose to believe them or not – he was more of a pacifist. Not a judge of others behavior. Not a war monger. Not a keeper of a lavish life style. The chruch has wandered very far from its origins. It’s no wonder people have trouble believing any of it these days. Greed and agression are rampant in a religion that used to stand for love, peace, forgiveness and mercy. If the believers don’t still believe in the original teachings, then why should anyone else.
Jesus taught against retaliation/seeking revenge. I don’t see this as inconsistent with self-defense. Letting someone shoot an innocent person when you can stop it is not loving to the victim.
Yes, there are exceptions. Just because you are supposed to “turn the other cheek” doesn’t mean that you are to be defenseless.
here it is:
Luke 22:35-38 (KJV)
35:And He (Christ) said to them (disciples), “When I sent you without purse and scrip and shoes, lacked you anything?” And they said, “Nothing.”
36: Then He said to them, “But now, he that has a purse, let him take it and likewise his scrip: and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.
37: For I say to you that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, and he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.”
38: And they said, “Lord, behold, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”
Prayer is slightly less effective than bullet.
Obviously they needed one!
No because in a house of worship (any house of worship) you should probably feel the safest of anywhere else in your life
I’m for the armed guards. Did you see that the guard who shot the guy was a female? I love it!
In this day and age… ABSOLUTELY! I was mugged outside our church and had my purse stolen while preaching!
When the church receives a call from someone saying they should be on alert for a gunman, than yes they should react just the way New Life reacted yesterday. Place a guard with law-enforcement experience in the foyer and be ready. I’d rather that happen that 100s of people murdered in church. I think the church reacted appropriately.
I agree with your post however, I think that after 9/11 people are paranoid and security is the utmost thought..
I dont agree with having an armed person in a church, but I think unfortunately, this is what the world has come to.. with all the wackos out for blood so to speak for their own warped reasons
To give a more complete interpretation of the verse in Matthew, let’s reference the entire Bible. “An eye for an eye” has reference to old laws given through Moses in Exodus 21:24 & Leviticus 24:20 & Deuteronomy 19:21. According these passages, it is as though Jesus changed the meaning of the law, but the law was not to sanction acts of personal retaliation. It was to establish a principle for limiting retaliation to that which was just. “Turning the other cheek” applies to the principle of non-retaliation to damages against one’s dignity (slapping someone’s cheeks v.39), lawsuits to gain one’s personal assets (taking someone’s cloak v.40), infringements on one’s liberty (going two miles v.41), and violation of property rights (robbery v.42). Yet, if it is a serious crime, such as murder, then Exodus 21:23 states that “But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life.” In the Colorado shooting, we are talking about criminal offenses, of taking one’s life, and not just matters of personal retaliation.
I have to agree with Tavia_n_Jones on this one.
To answer your question, no it probably doesn’t fall in line with Jesus’ teaching. I mean He scolded Peter for drawing his sword and cutting of the servants ear. Very few people have that kind of faith in the midst of terror. I would like to think I would, but until I’m faced with it, I don’t know. Much easier said than done. I don’t think it’s a sin to have guarded protection, but it also doesn’t show trust in God having one either. It’s just one of those situations you hope never happens because there’s no easy cut and dry answer.
It’s inconsistent with Jesus, but I can understand it, I suppose.
Planned Parenthood clinics need armed guards.
There are people who hate churches, just as there are people who hate reproductive healthcare. You gotta do what you gotta do.
I thought they only carried Shuriken Crosses.
The church used to have knights to protect it(the templers, I think). In some baltimore churches, we have had guards for sometime now. Some people would even steal from churches if they could. Sad.
I ad never thought about it in that way but I think that we have to protect our children too….
Consistent? Eh, that is a probable no but at the same time there are many Christians who don’t care in the least what the bible says unless they can twist it to suit their needs. Also, I don’t think that Jesus intended for us to sit back and let people kill us randomly just for the heck of it. If he did mean that then wouldn’t we have to offer up our families to be killed along with us to be in keeping with the general idea of that passage?
I believe this teaching was more talking about verbal assaults. Like, if someone calls you a Bible-thumping-fundamental-literalist, you just smile and tell them Merry Christmas.
No
I really don’t know
I think I read that this church was having security issues anyway…so they took this seriously and in the end it paid off.
not really.. nor do i think that having a church of 12,000 people is consistent with the teachings of Jesus
Facebookers, bloggers fight Pakistan emergency
Of course. I am to turn my own cheek when I am struck. I am not told to ignore the suffering of others.
No, it is not. Some would say that we also shouldn’t defend our homes. I think that Christ would have agreed with the non-defense, too. But, there are a lot of things Christians do which aren’t consistent with the words of Christ. I find that churches are following the path of “what makes sense” instead of “what Christ taught.”
The church is God’s house . He loves His people , but not the evil one . The armed guards are needed ! God loves America and bless America . Don’t lose faith to our ALMIGHTY GOD , JEHOVAH . In His kingdom having eternal lives . His people will resurrect again .
the way “most” chruches behanve they;ve never read the teachings a jesus christ… no that is not consistant at all.
(also not very christ-like to kick a man out of chuch, for a religion built by following the teachings of a man who hung out with whores and drunks.)
pacifism is nice idea, but doesn’t work in reality… Security Guards, Police, and the US Army exist because there is evil in the world. Thank God for that security guard… now, Mr. Theologian, you know that the Kingdom of God is both now and yet to come. There will be a time when the government will rest on His (Jesus’) shoulders… until then, security guards and police and the Army will keep the pacifists safe at night. In other words, people can think themselves pacifists because people like me exist.
And you’re welcome for that.
ha ha… what about america supposedly being a christian majority and going to war? how about that? All I am saying is that we use violence to protect eachother (police) and our country (soliders), so if we really wish to be like Jesus then we would have a harder time going to war then I think we do.
Daniel (doubledb)
Someone else pointed out where Jesus told his disciples to get swords. But what about Luke 3 when John the Baptist told some soldiers that to be saved all they had to do was repent. he didn’t say anything about them quitting their job. I agree with the others. turning the other cheek has more to do with revenge then anything else.
Hey man I attend church here at New Life where the shootings and the picture above is a little misleading (I’m not saying it was intended) as the picture shows a Swat member and not anyone involved with our church.
The lady involved in stopping the killer was carrying her own personal licensed weapon concealed and is in no way compensated financially as a Security Guard.She is not uniformed or anything of the sort. She volunteers to watch over things and make sure people are protected. After a day like we had yesterday I’m inclined to believe that’s not a bad idea.
As far as does it fit with what Jesus taught I will give you my own personal conviction that took a lot of time and thought. They are not just what I am comfortable with and are in fact the opposite of what I was taught growing up.
I believe when Jesus says an ‘An eye for an eye’ he is speaking of revenge not of self defense or of protecting others. One of the main factors that makes me believe this is the Chapter a few people have already quoted Luke 12. Jesus would not have had his soldiers carry swords to kill small game for food. I honestly try to live out what Jesus teaches as far as I know to do and that is my belief.
As far as war goes The Bible is extremely clear on God’s positions on government. That he appoints rulers and one of their jobs is to carry out justice and he asks us to submit to them.
Sorry for the long comment! God Bless
I almost wonder if anyone has read their Bible – Jesus was perfectly fine with the Centurion continuing in his line of work. David was described as a man after God’s own heart and he was a warrior. Murder is wrong. Slaying a murderer to stop him/her from taking victims is honorable and just.
Turn the other cheek doesn’t mean you should ignore evil being done to another.
I go to a very large church (about 5000 people). Its in a nice neighborhood. There are 2 uniformed police officers there anytime there is a large function, as well as during services wednesdays, and on the weekends. There have never been any serious problems there- but maybe that is because having them there serves as a good deterrent..
Unfortunately, we live in a crazy world now that requires guards at hospitals, schools, churches etc. Evil doesn’t just want the “tunic and cloak”, they want your life!
the Bible says “thou shalt not murder” as in slaying an innocent person- “kill” is a loose interpretation that is a favorite of liberals and skeptics which only shows their true ignorance of the Bible.
the Bible also sets up means of justice- as God did for establishing Israel as an independent nation so there wouldn’t be anarchy and chaos, and as Christ himself even upheld “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s…” Christians are not banned from partaking of justice and protection for people although they are required to obey the law of the land so far in as it doesn’t contradict the Bible.
I don’t see anything wrong with this church having its own security guard.
the chuch is actualy in the rich – very christan - part of town. The have an armed security guard because it’s city law in Colorado Springs if you have a gathering over a certain number of people. he guman came into the church beause he had an agenda of kiling as any christians as he could in one fell swoop. Since that church has over 10,000 members, it was a pretty obvious choice.
But to directly answer the question, don’t think the “turn the other cheek” thing mens “if someone shoots your daghter, hand him the other one as well.” The turn the other cheek teachig is about forgving your enemies, and not being singy asshole, not about allowing whatever harm to just fall on you. Jesus stodbefore Mary when the town wanted to stone her and kept herfro harm. Defending those you love is absolutely not against Christ’s teaching.
and actual, the guard did shoot the gunman, however her shot didn’t kill him. the gunman shot and killed himself.
I went to my child’s school not to long ago to have a quick lunch with him. We sat in the cafeteria with the rest of his 3rd grade class. One of the young girls, knowing I’m a police detective asked if I had caught any bad guys lately. Now other ears perked up and of course come the very typical question from young children to a police officer, have you ever been shot at or shoot somebody? My son answered yah.
So I gently as possible stated that a bad man reached for his gun to shoot me but I was quicker, and yes he died. Another little girl said very matter of fact “good job, now you can still be a Dad”.
Those words from that child represent what is most genuine in life. As we go through life a whole lot of poor rationalization and twisted fact muddle the waters of reality.
I’m a Christian and carry to church every Sunday. Yes, a pistol. The good Lord assigned me and others in my field across this Great Nation of being the Sheepdogs. Trust me there are other Sheepdogs out there in all facets of society, and you should all be thankful they are there.
Those of you who don’t agree with me, that’s okay, you can continue being a Sheep. It’s my job as a Sheepdog to protect you from the WOLF.
Always remember that a Sheepdog will never murder or harm his flock of Sheep, nor will he murder the Wolf. If the Wolf should die of his wounds while trying to murder the Sheep than so be it, the Wolf knew the risk of murder can sometimes be death.
What happened in Colorado is not unique. The random homicidal Wolf can lurk anywhere, church, school, mall, workplace, mini-mart or wherever sheep gather. As I grow older and become less efficient at being a Sheepdog, I pray that our new generations of Sheepdog can continue their mission.
No, but honestly, what the fuck does ANYTHING in America have to do with Jesus?
The mission house is about… two blocks from my house. We received a call at midnight telling us not to leave the house and to lock our doors.
Ironically, my parents were worried about the apartment I moved into yesterday in Englewood (another Denver suburb).
Nothing to do with your question… I know.
as for the original question, “Is it consistent with the teaching of Jesus for a church to have an armed security guard,” i would have to say this:
i do not pretend to know everything about christianity. in fact, i probably know very little. but i have been christian for all of my life, which, albeit short, has not been altogether innocent. Jesus is speaking about revenge here, at least, that’s how i see it. i think He was trying to get the point across that if someone comes along and hits you smack across the face, you shouldn’t get up and smack them right back. that may be “an eye for an eye,” which was popular with Nebachudnezzar (oh dear, i hope it was him. it’s late, and i’m not doing the most thorough fact-check), but it’s not where Jesus was going. i think He meant that even though people have wronged us does not mean that we should go out and seek revenge. kind of like what the shooter did. they were denied a place to stay, and they turned a gun on innocent people. that’s payback. that’s against Jesus’ teachings.
but to say that it may be inconsistent with the teaching of Jesus for a church to have an armed security guard? i don’t think so. because the guards don’t carry the guns for themselves. someone comes up to you and they try to force you to do evil or what have you, it’s your life. you can choose for yourself whether or not it is necessary to have a weapon with you at a church service. but if it is to keep others safe, that’s different. Jesus also said to love one another as we love ourselves.
which one of us wouldn’t want an armed security guard around if ever a gunman were to waltz into our place of worship?
Jesus protected himself at times from those who would kill him, not with weapons, but hiding out at one of his follower’s houses. Jesus didn’t say, “Never protect yourself. Never protect others.” unfortunately, it’s just not that easy to keep ourselves safe nowadays.
so no, i don’t think it’s inconsistent for a church to have an armed security guard. but i do see a difference between a person who just happens to show up with a gun to church and someone who is there to help others feel safe, feel secure, just as i see a difference between the law and vigilante justice.
this is mainly comprised of opinion, but if i am inaccurate on anything, please, let me know. it’s late, and i should start to learn to hone my late-night comprehension abilities if i am ever going to make it in college.
-e
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