February 24, 2008
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Prayer Time
Muslim students at universities in Australia have asked the schools to adjust class times around daily prayer times.
The La Trobe University International chief officer John Molony has said that his school would not make the adjustments for the prayer time saying “We are a secular institution.” He also said that the students knew it was a secular institution before they went to the school. Here is the link: Link
I don’t think that the school should change class times in the middle of the year. But I wonder what sort of adjustments are reasonable for future class schedules.
Do you think a school should factor in prayer times in the making of the schedule in order to make schooling practical for people of faith?
Comments (119)
Not exactly.
ehh. no.
Depends on how easy/difficult it would be to change and the number of students who would benefit from it.
No. What is up with people bending over backwards to please the Muslims? I really don’t anything against Muslims, but why do people feel a need to bend to their every whim?
Could we have Brittish Tea Time, too? Oh, what about Siesta break? Hell, lets just not do school at all and have one giant break.
eh…for muslims? eh…
that’s a good point to note, that they chose the school knowing it was a secular school.
you can go somewhere else…
No. Not unless they’re prepared to change schedules for every other religion or lifestyle that asks.
A university, right? Can’t students basically create their own schedules? Or take online courses which would be more flexible?
A secular university has no obligation to cater to the whims of any religion.
No; you can’t please everyone, and right now it sounds like they would be catering specifically to the muslim population of the school. They shouldn’t do that if they can’t accomodate whatever the other religious kids ask, too, and then you still can’t take care of everybody. Best to stay a secular school and not mess around with things. x__x Otherwise they’ll just end up in over their heads.
All things considered, people need to fucking cry more.
No. Being a Christian means you can pray anytime, anywhere to a living, personal God. Prayers aren’t suppose to be rote. God wants a relationship with us, not our times tables in prayer form.
No, there should be no consideration for Muslims in any public place. If they want this, they can go to school in the Middle East.
No. Not for any faith.
A secular school is a secular school. It should be open to diversity – people of different religions – and should, therefore, not conform to one in particular. A student can schedule classes around prayer time if need be. And if he absolutely has to take a class during that time, then he can either deal with it or skip class or whatever.
People skip for Ash Wednesday, for Hanukkah (Chanukkah?), Ramadan, etc.
nope. they should find their own times to pray
No.
Like it was said, if they want prayer times, there are universities in the middle east. What is it with everyone having to bend over backwards trying to please the Muslims? Sometimes they really do seem like such whiners.
If they do this, I’m curious when they would stop. If a student with an obscure religion says they need prayer time at 12 times during the day, does the school try to accomodate that? I would respect an institution who would do their best, but I don’t think it is their responsibiblity to accomodate all students.
No. However, we could make the case for any one person of faith to be able to try to get some sort of accommodation for praying. We could argue that those who knew the institution they are attending is secular could not afford to attend any other institution and thus not allowing them to both express their faith and get the full benefit of higher education would be discriminatory. However, a person who attends post-secondary education is an adult and adults have the ability to choose what religion they will adhere to. Those of us who adhere to a particular faith know that we have to make sacrifices for that faith. I do not believe this is any different.
No.
Absolutely not. Secular institutions have no business with religion; the school has no obligation to Allah.
Ridiculous
I have worked with Muslims – it seemed the only time off they really needed was late Friday afternoons. If Muslim students need to pray several times a day – that’s the way it goes. I dont think the prayer takes a long time. Those students should be excused from class and go to prayer then come back later.
People are funny – I guess freedom of religion only applies to Christians?
On the other hand, though, maybe we should go to school on Easter and Christmas?
My school incorporates prayer into class time. quick 30secs of hail mary and then we’re on with the lesson.
they can choose classes to work ’round their schedules. i did it for work.
I insist that to my faith, the letters C, D and F are unclean and unholy. I insist that your recognize my faith and only give me A’s and B’s
Depends on the school’s agenda. It is a University, so I think it all depends on the mission of the faculty.
No.
As tolerant as I want to say I am, no.
If you want your school to cater to your religion, then you should go to a religious school.
Umm… no.
Be responsible for your own religion, and your own schedule.
@anth0nyc - ”I guess freedom of religion only applies to Christians?”
my sentiments exactly. some people and their islam phobia/hatred
…intolerance i should say
If university there works anything like it does here, the students pick their own schedules. Just don’t pick classes that interfere with prayer time.
That said, I don’t see why they couldn’t consider the suggestion.
@cuteluvr21 - Said it best.
Obviously if it’s only a handful of students..it seems kind of outrageous.
Then again, I wonder what kind of fight Christians would put up for this if they had scheduled times? They already seem to be whining enough when they *aren’t* scheduled and are supposed to be private affairs between then and God.
Not to adjust unless the school is a religion-based school. Nothing related to Muslim or other religions.
Well, I completely overlooked the “university” part of that.
I’m curious as to whether their universities work the same as ours. That is- do the students pick their own schedules?
Hail no! … Hahaha ..Pun
But seriously,no.
And oh the ……..audacity!
Thanks for your encouragement,Dan.
I will see tomorrow if it has any weight to it.
I even went back into the classroom and confiscated the note that she wrote to the “fellow mocker”..
Proof that I ‘ain’t lying and that I mean serious biz.
not a secular school no
I think that they should take it into consideration, but like you said, they can’t really adjust class times in the middle of the year. It just doesn’t work.
No, they are a secular institution. The students should plan their around the prayer time’s themselves.
I agree. I am completely sick of every freaking country bending over backwards for these people. At the University of Michigan in Dearborn (a highly muslim populated place) they installed foot cleaning devices for them…would they have done that for another group? I doubt it.
I see it is if you come here or to another country for whatever it is, you need to conform to our rules and not have us change everything. (And the Australians.)
NO.
only if all faiths had consideration. this would show the muslim extremists, like Osama Bin Laden, that as a people, we are not the infidels we are made out to be.
I dont think that the schedual should be changed but if they need a little bit of time out of class thats fine…but only if they are willing to give it to everyone equally
No.
Oh, good grief.
Of course they shouldn’t adjust the college schedule to prayer times. How ridiculous.
If it were a Muslim college, sure. But it isn’t.
If that’s the case then they should reintegrate public prayer in the US schools.
But I don’t know how things are in Australia. Sounds like a pretty dandy mission trip to me.
Will Muslim schools allow Christians time to pray? Will they allow Christians at all? People who want special privledges should also be willing to grant them to others as well.
Heather
@ProudToBeAChristianFruitcake - lmao thats great!
It’s hard to say…. They are a secular institution, so maybe they shouldn’t.
@DrugInducedDuck -
And Sundays!
They could take that into consideration for next years schedules. If they can work something out thats nice, if not, well that is the way it goes.
The school is secular and the students knew that before attending. If they want someone to cater to their religious practices, go to a religious university specifically for the Muslim faith.
It’s their choice… but in my opinion, no.
@trumpetfreak19 -
Can you tell me what “our” religious rules are? Are you upset that some groups in the US don’t conform to “our” religious rules… like the Amish, and Hassidic Jews?
Do you think a school should factor in prayer times in the making of the schedule in order to make schooling practical for people of faith?
Practically, no.
In theory, consideration ought to be given to the Muslim students. The real world disadvantages of rearranging scheduling in their favor would outweigh their demand. Secular instuitions ought to give greater weight to secular factors.
@RaVnR - that’s a good point to note, that they chose the school knowing it was a secular school.
you can go somewhere else…
Many secular law schools take major Jewish holidays off, right?
No. Not for Muslims, not for any faith as the case may be.
It’s a secular school for goodness’s sake!
Any university of standing ought to embrace their cultural, religious, and intellectual diversity. While it’s impractical to implement secularily non-optimal class scheduling to mee Muslim needs, it doesn’t mean that the university shouldn’t have those needs in mind.
Needs in the cafeteria, for instance, can be more easily met. There are little to no trade-off for ensuring that a college cafeteria’s lunch menu carries meals amenable to practicing Hindus, Jews, Mulsims, and Vegans. It costs little to meet special needs here.
@anth0nyc - People are funny – I guess freedom of religion only applies to Christians?
Sadly, I’m getting the sense that this is the feeling of many. No one will argue against our de facto religious holidays (Christmas, Easter) with the backing of the Christian majority. “Under God” and “In God we Trust” will never be repealed because a biased, hypocritical majority won’t let it.
No. Muslim prayers are flexible. They can be made up. Deal with it.
For a public school? No.
If there becomes a majority outcry from the public of the land, though, I would consider consideration of such policies, since it moves into the area of being more practical for the general public.
no, but school would be wise to have a prayer room, an interfaith room or just a place students can go to do their spiritual rituals or thinking. So if the students choose they can go at that time and do it.
I don’t think they should change class times for the school overall. It’s a secular school, and if they made that adjustment for muslim students they’re have to make equal exceptions for other faiths.
But I do think muslims should be allowed to take prayer breaks. Just because it’s a secular school doesn’t mean it should disrespect students of faith.
no
No.
People need to stop assuming that all Muslims come from the Middle East. “Go back to the middle east” is possibly my least favorite thing to hear. And Muslim universities aren’t as easily found here as, say, Jesuit universities so that might not be an option.
And I’m pretty sure that if Christians wanted something and petitioned it (such as a room to pray) no one would object. A lot of the Muslims at my university have no where to go to pray (you can’t pray where people will walk in front of you, etc) and tend to make do with what they have.
But, as a Muslim, I disagree since I really don’t understand how they would adjust class schedules around prayer time and think that is a bit much.
@huginn -
not that I know of but if they are, I don’t condone that either!
nope. then you must consider all faiths. ive decided my god wants me to worship during test times. do you now have to cater to that too?
I pray in school when I think I’m doing badly on a test…it doesn’t seem to work. Otherwise, I go to an overcrowded public university and our classrooms and lecture halls are pretty much in use all of the time so I don’t think we can get everyone through if we suspend classes during the day.
not particularly, no
if they’re only going to make such concessions to Muslims then that’s discrimination and as a public institution (it’d be another issue entirely if it were private) and the concessions should not be made. sadly in our own nation where we’ve done away with most religious aspects in public schools- the very same institutions have begun making concessions to Muslims and setting aside private prayer rooms. i’m quite tired of this double standard and am ready to see it put to an end.
No. Private schools exist for a reason. If your faith MUST be part of your school day, then a private school would be the only choice. Schools shouldn’t be forced to allow religion in any country.
Not ever. Not even accidentally.
Nope
Will their future jobs do so? Not likely.
@huginn - re:
Many secular law schools take major Jewish holidays off, right?
I have never gone to a school that let everyone off for Jewish holidays.
When I have requested time off for the holidays, because I am a Jew, I have always had to get documentation, such as a letter from my rabbi. When I took the LSAT, I had to jump through all kinds of hoops to get a Monday test, because all other tests are on Saturdays.
But because I have known that I am Jew, since uh.. 1978.. so I know ahead of time to make arrangements for time off. And schools are accomodating of this, with documentation. I certainly think that the Muslim students should be allowed time to pray, and even a quiet area to do so on campus. But to disrupt the schedules of others? I dont think thats fair. A lot of students work and squeeze in classes when they can. If the school day is broken up into prayer times, these working students will not have as much time to take classes.
I don’t think they should. It’s a slippery slope to start out on and where does it stop? If I have to fit school around my schedule, they should have to as well.
No, they should not. It’s a secular school, as the man said. ~ L
If their customer base is largely Muslim, then it would make sense to cater to them. But a Muslim minority should not expect a non-Muslim culture to make broad changes for them. Muslims might have better luck starting their own university which caters to their needs.
Once you sign up with an institution, you should be prepared to follow its rules. I’m OK with a dissenting group asking for a change, but they should be prepared for rejection.
@anth0nyc -
People are still free to practice their religion, but they have to realize that every society does not bend over backwards for them. This is not an Islamic state, like many in Islam are used to. They need to realize, like many Christians have, that the world does not revolve around them.
No. Adjust your class schedule around your prayer time. Not everyone else’s schedule around your prayer times.
I would think that adjusting the schedule would be a large hassle, especially considering the differences in prayer times among Muslims and the fact that times change depending on the time of sunrise and sunset. That’s not even taking into account that daylight savings suddenly shifts everything an hour one way or the other, and to suddenly switch a class schedule by an hour in the middle of a term seems like a problematic change.
In the article is says “[Muslim leader Aziza Abdel-Halim] said afternoon prayers for Muslims – Zhohor, at 1.10pm, and Asr, at
4.50pm – could be performed until 10 minutes before the following daily
prayer, so it was more appropriate to alter prayer times than lecture
schedules.” I would agree that accommodations for the Friday congregational prayers would not be unreasonable (depending on the effects of such a schedule change), but also that Muslim students should try to schedule their classes to avoid such a conflict. If that were not possible then I would understand trying to seek a schedule change or similar accommodation. Perhaps the universities could add some gaps between class times, that way Muslim students would have time to do their daily prayers if they had classes back to back.
There have been a lot of comments saying we shouldn’t bother to accommodate them because then they would have to accommodate everyone. And while that may be true to an extent, people forget that this world naturally accommodates other religions in many places. Saturdays and Sundays off mean Jews and Christians can easily observe their Sabbaths without school interfering. The two major Christian holidays are also school holidays. I was allowed to take part in a Bible study before school hours at my high school, so why shouldn’t a Muslim student be allowed to take some time to pray? I see no problem with a room set aside for prayer. I’ve heard of many secular schools that have a room set aside for students of any faith to use for prayer. While the entire school system should not be rehauled for one group, certain accommodations can certainly be made out of respect for other’s religions.
One last note, anth0nyc made a comment about how apparently freedom of religion only applies to Christians. I see his point, but I found it funny because so many times in the past several years I’ve felt like freedom of religion applies to everyone except Christians. Certainly in my high school it seemed that way.
They shouldn’t have to. If they want, that’s up to them.
No, I do not feel that the schedules should be adjusted for prayer. Period, no matter what the spiritual beliefs of any particular student.
@pnklace - do you realize that is idolatry and sin against the most high God?
If you are as devoted to your faith as you claim to be then it should be no problem to sign up for classes at other times and if not possible then get up and do it in the middle of class if its such a big deal.
@ashleyb1708 - What….? Do you realize that, i don’t know what you’re talking about? Are you saying the Hail Mary is idolatry and sin? And what do you mean “the most high God”.. in Christianity, there’s only one God. I’m a bit confused with your response, please elaborate.
If it’s a secular school, no way in hell should they adjust their schedule. If you were that concerned about prayer times, as opposed to your education, you could have elected to attend a school that had that sort of thing factored into their schedule. But you should NOT expect to attend a secular institution and have the entire school’s schedule catered to your religious “needs”. There are options that may suit you better, use them.
@pnklace - Psa 78:56 Yet they tempted and provoked the most high God, and kept not his testimonies:
Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
Act 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Can I ask you this question: Where in the Bible does it say to hail Mary?
I want no prayer time, I want to have a curriculum that doesn’t shy away from what is arguably the most important piece of literature in the past 40 years just because it deals with homosexuality and morality, I want an administration that refuses to be intimidated by those who are easily offended…I want everyone to keep their religious demands out of my education. I have nothing against religion, nor against atheism, other than the fact that too many people within those groups won’t shut up long enough to learn anything about each other.
Not unless Christian kids are allowed to cut up pine trees and hoist them on the school stage with ridiculous amounts of bulbs and angel decorations during December at lunch time =3
Or until Jewish kids get the kosher options for school cafeteria food ( Not possible, I know.)
Secular institutions stay secular, or they have to make arrangements for every religion and be fair to everybody. Since the fair for everybody part gets pretty carried away because religious nut mom’s throw fits at the PTA meetings, special prayer schedules are out.
If they need to go pray, then they can get a note from a parent and leave class to do so at their own expense and own time.
Now if the institution were not a secular institution, then sure, why not.
lol, I just realized that I forgot we were talking about a University and not K-12.
Oh well, my position still stands, save for the note from mommy part. Just leave the class and go pray, most professors don’t care anyway.
Not unless it is a religious school. Otherwise, between all of the different religious holidays and prayer times and whatnot… Nothing would ever get done. Now, if its… say, a catholic school, or a muslim school, or whatever… then they can base their breaks and whatnot on their set religion… But if a school is made to accomodate the relgion of every student that attends there… thats just ridiculous.
I think they shouoldn’t change the curriculum for all students but take into regard individual students.
My school allows students to leave class to pray at certain times for it.
Also: Um yea, no school on sunday or saturday for christian or jewish kids and those christmas/easter breaks being built in. secular schools have based break systems around the religions of their students. While – Muslims are lucky if their major holidays even fall on a break on top of not being allowed their prayer time.
They should only cater to the religious needs of students if they are a religious school, otherwise, tough luck
Just like I think the Church and government should stay separate, so should religion and education. You can be educated on religion, but religion should not dictate education.
to those saying that America caters to those of the Judeo-Christian faith in terms of days off and holidays- remember- it was those of the Judeo-Christian faith who settled and founded and for the most part are the dominant culture of America- it’s just common sense that our founders and government leaders would’ve made concession to the dominant beliefs of this nation. not that other religions can’t have holidays- but rather that the nation as a whole is not going to overhaul its government holidays to please every little religious group. there are already laws in place that protect the rights of every religious person in schools and in the public workplace- you just have to make your request known to whoever is in authority at that institution and provide evidence of its legitimacy.
just like Islam is the dominant culture in the Middle East and therefore their work and culture bend around their religious needs- we wouldn’t expect them to overhaul their holidays for another small religious group living among them, so why should they expect that of other countries?
@paoguy118 -
Dude. I hope you’re joking.
@smileygirl91 -
I hope you were kidding… the specific religion is not the issue.
Public education and religion should never intertwine, although they
often do. People should pray on their own time, it isn’t the school’s
responsibility to accommodate them… but it isn’t because they’re
Muslim.
Faith is a personal journey and those of the faith will find a way to pray.
@ashleyb1708 -
The “Hail Mary” is a prayer which is cited by catholics around the world, at least.. that’s what I’m assuming.
Are you catholic?? Because i’m talking about catholicism and not Judaism, sorry if i confused you.
I think it would depend a little on how drastically they would have to change the schedules. If it’s only to accommodate for the Friday afternoon prayer (the most important prayer) I think it would be a good idea. Also, I think some of the commenters here misunderstand the nature of Islamic prayer. It’s not the same as Christian prayer – it involves a whole body manifestation of devotion and submission to God and has many more requirement of specific times and cleanliness than do other types of prayer. Although there are varying levels of observance, asking an observant Muslim to miss the Friday prayer would be something like asking an observant Christian to not go to church on Sunday. We wouldn’t expect that from any secular institution. Also, I would hardly say we are bending over backward to appease Muslims. Perhaps some of the more critical commenters should try practicing their own religions somewhere where they are in the minority.
Nope!
@ashleyb1708 - Do you believe Jesus is a god? Because if you do and want to critcize someone for their Catholic traditions, then you’re just a bit of a hypocrite.
No, if they adjust their schedule around the Muslim then they have to adjust their class time for everyone else. That’s just isn’t fair!
@ashleyb1708 - re:
Can I ask you this question: Where in the Bible does it say to hail Mary?
Ex 20:12
@pnklace - the girl attacking you is in NO WAY Jewish.
@pnklace -
No i am not catholic. And I am not Jewish, I am a born again Christian and the Bible is the inspired word of God. I only quoted from the old testament because the 10 commandments brought to us by moses are there.
@ashleyb1708 -
G-d gave Moses 613 Commandments, not ten. It was not “inspired” by G-d, though your Christian translation might have been. It was HANDED to Moses by G-d. You really should learn more about your own religion before you start harassing others about theirs.
well… we have a moment of silence every single morning once first period bell rings. although they say it’s not a prayer time… or anything religious, a lot of people made a big deal about it saying it forces religion down their throat…
so umm… i don’t know how to answer this.
@sahel578 -
Hahah, yeah i know. I was trying to mock her in a subtle way.
@sahel578 -
Not that i’m saying Judaism is a means for mocking, it’s just that she doesn’t make any sense and the only thing i understood from her is that she does not know much about Christianity. And the closest comparable religion that i could relate her responses to was Judaism. Though, i have to say that she’d be a horrible Jew as well.
cool
yes
If the student body is, by a large majority, Muslim, then I don’t see the issue with changing the times in the future. It will help keep the students around longer instead of them searching out another college that provides prayer time, thereby bringing in more money for the university. But I don’t think they should be changed if the Muslim student population isn’t very significant. They should be the ones to adapt if that’s the case.
No, I like and agree with what he said.
They can schedule their own classes, if they want. Or go somewhere else.
Yes. We have time off school for Christian holidays, same thing.