June 30, 2008
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Immigration and Zero Tolerance
Arizona is now cracking down on illegal immigrants by taking a “zero tolerance” approach. They are arresting people “that are suspected of living in the country illegally.”
This approach scares some because they are actually knocking on doors and arresting people. The thinking is that this is causing people to be harassed that may be legal citizens. Here is the link: Link
On the one hand, it is hard to crack down on illegal immigrants if law enforcement doesn’t take an aggressive approach. On the other hand, it sort of sucks to be Hispanic because you can easily be “suspected” of illegal immigration.
Do you think it is worth risking arresting a few legal citizens in an effort to crack down on illegal immigration?
Comments (159)
Yes!! God yes. I hate living amongst so many of them… As rude as that may sound, not all of them are bad…just the ones that don’t speak english and expect hand outs.
First?
Maybe not arresting them right off the bat, but taking them down to the police station for questioning. We need to solve this problem of Illegal Immigration somehow. And if they are legal citizens, they shouldn’t have a problem with answering some questions.
Ahhhh….
If they are legal…why would they be arrested? Everyone should have an i.d.
In my city during the drunk driving check points it doubles for an illegal immigrant check point. If they can’t prove they are a citizen they get arrested and I’m assuming sent back to the border.
I definitely think that Arizona is going the right route.
No. Our judicial system is not based on the principle of “it’s okay to catch some in the crossfire;” it is based on the idea that innocent people should not have to suffer just because some fraction of the population is guilty.
As if that weren’t bad enough, there is a resurgence of hate groups hiding their agenda under the banner of promoting English. Personally, I applaud efforts to teach English, but I am very leery of the way some groups associate inability to speak English with everything from subversiveness to moral and intellectual inferiority.
It sends a warning sign to illegals, we have to start somewhere.
I don’t think it’s really worth it, I think the whole reaction against illegal immigrants is a bit over rated. There are bigger problems that need to be dealt with. For those that say “They’re taking our jobs.” I know citizens that would rather be unemployed that work some of the same jobs that the illegal immigrants work. So I really don’t think it’s so bad.
It’s an imperfect world. Sigh.
Finally!
Yes.
It’s one thing to check greencards. It’s another to just blindly arrest legal citizens.
HOWEVER we do need to work on the illegal immigration problem! I say more border patrol, and arrest any little bugger trying to get here without the proper papers. A really big fence might help, too. The Great Wall of Texas… LOL. :p
When did it change to ‘guilty, until proven innocent’? Just because I’m of Mexican descent, I get discriminated against all the time. I’m a legal US citizen, born and raised in the US. On top of all the other crap people in my situation have to endure, we don’t need the cops coming to our front door in the middle of the night, just because they suspect we’re not legal. That’s just plain bull shit!
If the government invested their time, effort, and money into speeding up the legalization process (not making it easier, just faster), I think this country’s immigration problem wouldn’t be as bad as it is now. It took my parents almost 14 years to actually get the chance to go and take the citizenship test. Yeah, the line’s that long.
Shouldn’t they have a warrant or probable cause? Hmm… perhaps I should read the article first.
I wish they would do that to my ex. Though that’s just a personal vendetta. Heh.
Ha! Yeah, good idea. Try it in Los Angeles next.
I say “Yes” because it doesn’t directly affect me.
@Xcholo4u - HAHA!
@StephanieMarie7891 - Do you think that illegal immigrants are some sort of monolithic group with a coherent plan? Do you think they’ll even know if the US implements this and change their plans accordingly? I can hardly believe they are consistently well-informed or that they have a variety of options to choose from.
I mean, I get that sending a message via punishment is in theory a deterrent. It’s just that deterrence only works against a small fraction of offenders. You’ll always have people who are crazy or desperate, and those are wholly unaffected by deterrents. The average illegal immigrant strikes me as pretty desperate.
@caliangel88006 - Well, if they were going to be stopped either way, then no harm was done and that’s certainly fair. (What would they be doing driving anyway?)
That is awful.
I say knock on every door in the country.
Wrap them mexicans up in a tortilla and send em back if they arent legal!!!!!
Im sick of them getting away with it and I refuse to translate to help anymore because they are getting life easy
while Americans are working their asses off to get what they can get by pretending that they are stupid.
I know this for a fact. I am MeXUCAN…AMERIXCAN hahaha! Yep I am from the U.S….. Protect our countryyyyy
@moritheil -you know i can’t really answer that question, but they do. It was kind of surreal the first time the did it because there were literally about 50 people sitting in the parking lot, it would be interesting to find out why they dont need licenses
“In the wake of two unsuccessful attempts at passing a comprehensive immigration reform bill in Congress, state and local governments have increasingly taken it upon themselves to find solutions to the immigration problem.”
My thoughts exactly.
Though a solution is desperately needed, this does not sound like it. Creating more problems for the sake of expediency is not necessarily beneficial. That’s a lesson we should learn from Congress.
No. I think this is going too far. Imagine if you were a Hispanic person here legally. How many times would you be taken in and have to prove it to the authorities.
This is just wrong. We can’t be harassing people like this!
Believe me, I’m against illegal immigration so don’t get me wrong, but does this not scare anyone??? Sorta remind you of the camps anyone who looked oriental got put in to during WW2??? Hmmm, there just needs to be a better way. Just require proof of citizenship to get a job, rent/buy a house, go to school, etc. All the basics things we have to have but usually have to at least show license, social security card, something before we can get it. If they can’t get a job, can’t drive, can’t send their kids to school, or get ANY kind of federal aid, it will be hard for them to stay. If they are not draining the system like they are now, hell, let them stay for the little cash jobs if they are able to get them. There is no american that will do those jobs. Most of the ones that would are too busy working the system to get their checks every month and usually don’t want to work if they could. I say we let SOME of the illegals that want to work AND contribute stay and deport the lazy good-for-nothings to Mexico that DO NOT want to work and leech of the rest of us! CAN I GET AN AMEN!?!?!?!
It’s not harassment to be asked to show ID. Cops can already do that to anybody, anytime.
They should change the immigration policy to allow Mexicans to enter the country more easily on a work visa basis. Who would clean our toilets, valet our cars and cut our lawns for less than minimum wage if it weren’t for cheap Mexican labor? How else would you get a half dozen guys to help you move furniture to your new apartment for less than $50 (prices may vary, check your local UHaul for current rates)?
I figure we give them 3 year work visas that only allow them to work those really shitty jobs that none of us American citizens would want to do. If they were able to work their asses off and earn $50,000 in that time, they could buy their citizenship because that is the American way.
vigilancy is not a practical solution to this immigration problem. many illigal immigrants are hard working, honest, and law-abiding (in terms of peace) i think the one way to make sure that the problem does not get worse is shut down our borders. if an illegal breaks the law we ship them back. and since the border is shut they will not be able to regain entrance. i think that is one solution. there are many solutions but door to door search seems too um. ?fascististic? this is not a sound system of ridding us of the problem.
Arresting? I don’t think so and that is not the issue. Being talked to is another story.
But the truth of it is no one is honestly trying to control illegal immigration. They are doing more than they ever have, but if anyone really wanted to enforce the law. its not hard to do. Check all social security numbers, of all employees. Don’t bother the people working with fakes, just fine their employers a lot of money. Give every employer access to an instant ID check, that they are to use every new hire. And put them out of business if they don’t do it.
There is no reason to arrest and deport anyone, unless you catch them breaking another law.
With no jobs for them, there will be little in the way of illegal immigration.
Knocking on people’s doors and arresting under a suspicion of illegality? Can anyone say, “Hello, Gestapo”?
Seriously, I know something needs to be done, but this isn’t the way. I’ve heard of companies sending recruiters into Mexico to hire Mexicans and help them come across the border to work illegally. Why? Because it’s cheaper for the company to pay lower wages to non-citizens, of course. How come these companies aren’t being punished? I.e. Swift meatpacking plant and others in Iowa? Instead of raiding the workplace, raid the offices. It’s the responsibility of the management to make sure that their employees are legal citizens. If illegal immigrants can no longer get work here, then, likely, fewer will come, or at least, come legally.
Also, if we were a better neighbor to Mexico, perhaps things wouldn’t be so bad there that people feel they have to leave the country to get work. Most people actually don’t want to leave their homes and families.
@trunthepaige -
Wow, we said almost the same thing at almost the same time! Yes, I agree.
I live here in Phoenix and it’s definitely a very hot topic here. I haven’t heard about them knocking on doors and arresting legal residents, so I don’t know if that’s true or not. I don’t think people should be able to live here illegally. Not only do they live here, but then they make demands for us to have to speak their language instead of learning English. Also, there’s a lot of Mexican gangs coming here to Phoenix and also Los Angeles and killing people.
i do want illegal immigrants gone but no, innocent people should not be arrested in the process
@PrincessFiveandDime - Precisely. If you immigrated here legally, then you have proof (i.d, citizenship papers, etc.) If you’re smart, you keep these handy, but in a safe place, such as a safe or lock box. If you’re not here legally, then you don’t have proof of legal residence.
Illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be dealt with, plain and simple. There is no grey area. Its ILLEGAL. If someone commits murder, they are sent to jail for a very long time, hopefully life. While illegal immigration is not as severe as murder, it is just as black and white.
I understand they want to improve their quality of life and all that, but we don’t have the resources to deal with them all. That is why we have the immigration system that we do. While it may have its flaws, its what we have to work with. I feel bad for the people who try to do it legally, and end up waiting years, if not decades to gain citizenship. You can blame the ones who didn’t take the time and didn’t have the respect to do it legally.
I applaud Arizona for standing up for what they believe in. I wish California’s legislature would grow a pair and do the same…
Okay.. I meant that the mexicans are pretending to be dumb to get what they want while the Americans are working their asses off… I was so ready to type that I got it backwards.. woooops. But still…wrap em up in that tortilla
@a_strange_wind_blowing - I am legal.. Actually I am American, and I wouldnt mind them knocking on my door a thousand times if it straightens this situation out.
Deanna
@lizheartshakespeare - I agree 100 % with you…110%
Dan!!!… I used to feel sorry for them… I dont anymore.I have had too much contact with illegal mexicans to be mistaken …One lady told me once that she got here without any immigration problems so she says that GOD put her here ILLEGALLY so she doesnt think that she needs to be legal. I REFUSE to help another illegal mexican in any way,form or fashion.
PISSED,
Deanna
@maje_charis -
Iit is a funny thing, but many American think Mexico is a hell hole. Proving that few Americans ever talk to a Mexican. They only come here for the money, most will tell that they plan on going back home someday. Mexico a great place, most Mexicans prefer it to the USA.
And notice the stink about NAFTA. It is as if we really want them to be poor.
In practice, any policy or any enforcement method would never be absolutely perfect or 100% error-proof. Whether or not the arresting of “a few legal citizens” would depend on whether or not due process is observed.
The FoxNews article didn’t go into the particulars of the enforecement. It concerns me when officers acto on “suspicion.” What the fuck does this “suspicion” entail? It sounds like McCarthiasm. It sounds like a witch hunt. It sounds like bigoted bullshit.
@huginn - Oh please, it is not hard to have an honest suspicion. You would have police turns off their brains and only question people with neon signs that admit to their crimes.
Knock on the doors…ask for papers…if you can’t produce them…arrest the criminal…send them home. Yeah Arizona! Maybe the government will finally get a clue and follow suit.
Yes, and it is about time someone starts cracking down on illegal immigration.
@caliangel88006 - When they’re deported, it is usually far beyond the border, Mexico City, if I’m not mistaken.
I think it’s totally worth the risk. Something needs to be done about it.
@trunthepaige -
Yeah, I know. Heaven forbid that our government should realize that it could be causing its own problems.
I’ve also heard that most want to go back. Wouldn’t we want to come back home after working for a while in a foreign country?
The lack of understanding and research on this issue makes me so sad.
@OfElection - ha, i don’t care one way or another just as long as they are gone.
no I don’t think that’s fair to those who are legal.
@lizheartshakespeare - Precisely. If you immigrated here legally, then you have proof (i.d, citizenship papers, etc.) If you’re smart, you keep these handy, but in a safe place, such as a safe or lock box. If you’re not here legally, then you don’t have proof of legal residence.
Most people don’t have their greencard, naturaliation papers, or passport immediately on hand. I have mine stored in a locked box outside of my home.
To a point, I think public officials must have a legitimate basis for their investigation. Racial profiling itself isn’t quite kosher.
@lizheartshakespeare - If California “grows a pair”, prepare to work your ass off even harder.
Why do you think California has the worlds 5th largest economy? There
is way too much profit coming in from illegal migrant workers. If
California grows that pair, you can kiss California good bye.
@trunthepaige - Oh please, it is not hard to have an honest suspicion.
Yeah, but as far as the article went, we don’t know the common basis of the Arizonian officer’s “suspicion.”
You would have police turns off their brains and only question people with neon signs that admit to their crimes.
No.
@supsoo - i think the one way to make sure that the problem does not get worse is shut down our borders.
Like physically? A Great Wall from the Californian coast all the way to Texas? I’m not sure if that’s a feasible or cost-effective solution.
@huginn - So you would have them go off of a list of “approved official suspicions”
In other words turn off brain and do nothing
@tjbruin00 - Who would clean our toilets, valet our cars and cut our lawns for less than minimum wage if it weren’t for cheap Mexican labor?…
There are legal immigrants. Many new immigrants, for whatever reason, start on the lowest level of the economic totem pole.
I figure we give them 3 year work visas that only allow them to work those really shitty jobs that none of us American citizens would want to do.
I think there are practical and philosphical issues with this suggestion. Firstly, there is no practical means to keep tabs on all such visa workers. It could become a back-door means of illegally immigrating into the country. Following the expiration of the visa, there’s nothing to prevent the workers from continuing in the country illegally. Secondly, this policy would be unfair to those from other countries. United States immigration policy operates by a quota and point system. Why should we give potential Mexican immigrants this special privilage while shunning those from Asia or Eastern Europe?
@trunthepaige - So you would have them go off of a list of “approved official suspicions”
Something like that.
In other words turn off brain and do nothing
I can’t see how racial profiling is a turning on of brains. Can you?
no, it isn’t right. it’s invasive. as a hispanic, i’d be extremely angry if someone knocked on our door and arrested us without any solid evidence or suspicion. and yes, they can ask for ID, but they cannot arrest someone for failure to show ID.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071003114409AAOBi8n
@huginn -
Thats right they should randomly check everybody.
Oh wait you don’t like that ether, so lets admit you want them to nothing because to use one brain means you must profile. We don’t have a lot of illegal Norwegians and most Mexicans have a look about them. And that look is extremely accurate.
@StewieIsMyHero - Yes!! God yes. I hate living amongst so many of them… As rude as that may sound, not all of them are bad…just the ones that don’t speak english and expect hand outs.
It sounds as if you have a problem with immigrants in general- illegal or not.
@trunthepaige - …We don’t have a lot of illegal Norwegians and most Mexicans have a look about them. And that look is extremely accurate…
Can you identify me the “illegal immigrant” look? For the life of me I can’t tell the difference. The illegal Asian looks just like the legal Asian (likewise, Mexicans).
@huginn - Yes, this may be true. I DO live in Texas…I think the population has hit over 50% non-Caucasian.
@StephanieMarie7891 - It sends a warning sign to illegals, we have to start somewhere.
Absolutely! Your view would do Josephy McCarthy proud! Just as McCarthyism effectively rid our nation of Communist scum, we must clense our great country of illegal Mexicans! Messages need to be sent, even if it be through fucked-up means.
@huginn -
Yes there is a look and I could show it to you. Asians are just as easy. It takes time to get a green card, and with time comes assimilation. It is more than race, cultures have a look to them, a way of carrying themselves, a way of dressing, a look of being out of place, it shows.
@huginn - Admit it you can spot a European on vacation can’t you? I can
@trunthepaige - This is where I buy you a beer, challenge you to the point, and we go illegal alien spotting. =P
(But practically, this is far as this particular line of discussion goes)
@trunthepaige - To me, they look just like foreign echange student.
yes, but start with all the white illegal immigrants first….or are these people just worried about the colored ones?
I don’t think it’s a bad idea as long as those who are legal immigrants are not harassed.
@huginn - Exactly! I think you have it if you want to.
But I find it imposable to spot an Australian until they speak. It is a good thing they are not much of an illegal immigration problem
.@gsuni -
And tell me do you really think there are very many of them?
Those of Central American decent who don’t wanna be harassed should tell their fellow countrymen to stop entering our country illegally. Just like the Japanese should’ve told Japan not to start shit (which was a really stupid thing for the Axis to do). This probably won’t work though. We gotta get rid of the opportunity for illegals for them to not want to come in the first place. All those arguments about “oh we we’re all immigrants too!” are so stupid. Tell the Mexicans to wait in line at Ellis Island, THEN they can say it’s just like our ancestors.
descent*
It’s good to be proactive, and there isn’t anything wrong with demanding for an ID, etc. But actually knocking at the door and arresting people for being suspected as an illegal immigrant…I think it’s too much.
hell yes.
Good ol Joe. Its about time!
NO. I don’t know if I can even say this strongly enough.
NO.
if they’re legal, then their name gets crossed off the list. sure it’s a pain, but it’s what’s best for the community and country.
No.
gestapo?
@SpiritualBattlefield - But that’s the issue! I’m not convinced that this will straighten out anything! It just drives a bigger wedge between people of Hispanic descent and non-Hispanic citizens. The atmosphere is bad enough! Read some of these comments! I am really concerned about this issue and what could happen.
Yes, I do. This problem is going to have to be solved by the states and local governments since neither John McCain nor your pal, Barack Hussein Obama Jr., want to tackle this issue. Illegal immigrants are a human infestation and they need to be gotten rid of ASAP. Otherwise, people are just going to start shooting them.
that is fucked up.
maybe all minorities should gang up and start shooting white people.
@StewieIsMyHero - Try growing up in Southern California where the minority is white.
California is too liberal to do this. I dont think it will every happen… I think theyve tried though.
Either way… as a new arizonan, its about time.
All I care about is that due process is followed. I’m Caucasian and don’t believe anyone would mistake me for an illegal immigrant- though I could easily be one, whether anyone wants to think about Caucasian immigrants or not- but I get nervous whenever ANYONE is singled out like this. When authorities test the waters to see what they can get away with, they start with one group and slooowwwly move on to everyone else.
@LauraChristine83 - Well, since the percentage of mexicans in Texas is now over 50%, I think that makes us the minority here too…
“Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer” ~William Blackstone
@caliangel88006 - Except that a major problem is their re-entry. If we did put them at the border, it makes it much easier and much cheaper for them to simply cross again. The further away, the harder the re-entry.
I don’t know. It would depend on if the cops were being rude and abusive. I think knocking on doors, especially in areas where illegal immigrants were expected to be living, and asking to see I.D would be okay.
@a_strange_wind_blowing - I understand what you are saying. Im angry about illegals not trying to be legal.
And about what you say, whatever is going to happen is going to happen… see if we dont straighten it out then it is eventually going to get worse.
Illegals dont really fear immigration much anymore, because they get away with so much already.
@pnklace - I don’t think that would solve anything. >.< Honestly I don’t think there is any solution to this problem that wouldn’t end up being a bother to some people. I do not believe that illegal immigrants have the right to stay in our country, so I think that yes, we should deal with an annoyance to find those people that are living here illegally. I think that illegal immigrants who are found should be given an oppurtunity to go through the process towards becoming a U.S. Citizen. I believe there are ways to make this as fair as possible. I think thats what we should all be aiming towards.
@LauraChristine83 - Try growing up in Southern California where the minority is white.
Awwww, poor you.
@PSUnited1 - I can never tell whether you’re serious. I find this fact pretty disconcerting.
Why not start by making English the official language of the United States? Around here, you can’t get some jobs unless you speak Spanish.
@trunthepaige - canada is pretty high up there in terms of migration into the united states. if you really want to shut down on the illegal population, they should be asking every white person for their ID too. No discrimination right? treat everyone the same i say. Freaking wasting police time and bloggers time with such nonsense laws. like this is actually going to pass constitutional scrutiny? blah.
Cracking down on illegal immigration is necessary but, I don’t totally agreed with their tactic upon doing this. They can take them down to the police station for question but, don’t make a big commotion about it in case they are innocent. This can ruin their reputation, neighbors will gossip, and think they are illegal immigration even if the police let them free.
I think it’s a terrible idea.
why is it harassing to ask for ID its a simple proof of citizenship. because in most states you cant have a Drivers licence or state ID if yu are an illegal
@huginn - So, your response to her had me thinking about how personally as a white person in america living in new england i’m definitely not used to being in the minority. i know that when i am for whatever reason i always feel a little awkward. is it silly? yes. i’m not really proud of the fact, but i’ll admit to it. but i don’t really speak out against it, because this is how minorities must feel a lot of the time. and i think there is nothing wrong with learning to live and understand other cultures more fully. i just don’t think it’s right for people to be illegally entering the country.
@gsuni -
yeah but it is legal the topic was illegal immigration not legal immigrants or tourists.
Latin America, including Mexico, is the source of 90 percent of illegal aliens entering into the United States. not much of the remaining 10% are Europeans
@trunthepaige - i was trying to be sarcastic. darn you xanga! shouldn’t we target those 10% too? isn’t it about getting rid of all illegal immigrants, not just the dark ones? all i’m saying is get rid of the white ones first, which is obviously just as easy. Just go around and ask white people for their ID ? *insert sarcasm* please don’t respond to me again. I feel like i have an obligation to respond back. i’m not kidding. I feel rude if i don’t.
@gsuni -
I like sarcasm, I am sorry did not catch it
that is messed up. well i dont plan on goin there cuz ppl say i look hispanic n im not..ive even had police ask me did i speak english and stuff.
i think everyone deserves to come here and ppl say well they can do it legally..umm from what i heard its not as easy as sum may think to come to this country legally.
@trunthepaige - ahhhhhh!!! this is kinda funny
open the borders for all. as the granddaughter of 4 immigrants-france, ireland, germany, i say let them all in. open the borders.
stereotypes about immigrants make me angry. all my grandparents were productive members of society.
^^
Rolls eyes billions of people living in poverty in this world. They all would like to come. Pack them in, Enumclaw will need to fit about a million of them.
@huginn - @Lithium98 - I’ll be posting on this on my blog, so please check that out to see my response. I would post it here, but its too long and I have a lot to say, and I don’t want to take up TheTheologianCafe’s comment space with a long comment. It should be posted in the next hour or so…
Yea, I think it’s perfectly fine and I applaude them for doing so. Show your proof of citizenship or get the Hell out. I think it’s so funny how many people defend them, when I have legal hispanic friends who HATE illegals even more than the rest of us (because what they do is a big slap in the face to those who went (or whose family went) through all the stuff to get their citizenship) I garauntee you they would not mind this at all. Like people said, they can’t just arrest you, if you have I.D./a green card then there’s no problem. I have zero tolerance as well and wouldn’t mind if when illegals were discovered we could give them a swift kick in the ass as we throw them back over to their country. Possibly out of a plane? Okay that was mean, but maybe one or two just so they know we mean business. It’s about time America starts growing some balls about this kind of crap that’s happening in our own backyard.
@AbandonBliss - if they’re legal, then their name gets
crossed off the list. sure it’s a pain, but it’s what’s best for the
community and country.
Guess we should just go knocking on every single door and demand to see proof of citizenship? If it’s just “a pain”, then I don’t think anyone should have a problem with the cops coming into your home, arresting you, and demanding you prove your citizenship, right?
Cops having the ability to basically arrest who ever they want like this is invasive and offensive to those who may be suspected as an illegal immigrant.
If something like this where to go nation wide, it for sure will open the floodgates to even more invasive laws. Just wait until the police have the right strip search you for running a red light or something insignificant like that.
@Color_me_Karma - I’m Hispanic. I was born here in the US. I don’t like illegals. I’m against this kind of act. I would really hate to give the cops another reason to racially profile me and pull me over, or even worse, come into my home and have me arrested only because they think I might be illegal.I’m not defending illegal immigration. I’m defending US citizens, like myself, who will easily be affected by a law similar to this passing in my state.
Why should I have to prove that I’m a citizen to some a-hole cop (with a chip on his shoulder) who takes a look at the color of my skin and decides I’m not legally supposed to be here? Why not pass a law that harshly punishes anyone who employs illegals? Why not pass another law that harshly punishes anyone who rents or sales apartments and homes to illegals? I could think of a good reason. It’s made of paper, green, and has a bunch of old dead guys printed on it.
@weirdbean - A lot of people are going with the same way…specifically white people.
@Lithium98 - I understand where you’re coming from, however, I did not say ALL legals would be fine with this so don’t get me wrong.
Not sure there would be a way to solve the problem without offending someone.
For my own purposes, it would not be too much trouble for me to prove I was here legally, I’ve got enough paperwork behind be.
I feel bad for the kids who grow up here illegally, but having no connection to the country they are legally from, then worried about being dumped, essentially in a foreign land, if and when they get caught. But blame the parents or the US?
I happen to be lucky to have been born here, so I’m not in this situation.
What nation could I run away to and get away with it? What do other nations do?
@quinzel86 - and you dont find that attitude problematic? i wont work construction, but thats not because the job is beneath me, it’s because im clumsy and accident prone. ask me to sweep up or do some other menial labor that wont cause me to hurt myself or someone else and i’ll work for a fair wage. this whole, “im an american so im too good for job x” shit has got to go.
as far as the post goes, i think we are asking the wrong question. perhaps what we should be asking is what(action or inaction) brought us to the point that they felt this was necessary? no one really wants to listen to how everyone loses when the gates are open though, so it’s kind of pointless to go on about how the workforce their suffers with willing, ablebodied workers fleeing enmasse, stifling any economic developement, or how an overabundance of cheap under the table labor here hurts the economy as people who have to live above board cant find jobs at a decent wage and less is put into circulation.(that under the table money aint staying here.) let’s just forget about communications issues with people who refuse to speak or learn the common language because they think they can get over on people in financial dealings. sorry, as a bill collector i see it all the time, people pretending they dont speak english just to cheat someone out of money, the kind who speak plain and clear till they know where you’re calling from, then it’s “no speaky ingy..” and who’s table does that take food off of? the president of the company? the owner? the CEO? no, mine. so yes, i have a special place in my heart for those types, and it aint a warm and fuzzy one.
in short, should any legal immigrants who worked hard and went through hell to get here be harrassed and jeapordized for this? no, i dont really think so, but maybe it can serve as a wakeup call that SOMETHING needs to be done, and perhaps a better solution is for the immigrant community to help police it’self, with legal citizens doing their part to expose and deal with illegals. just a suggestion, though im sure that someone out there is going to nail me as a crossburning racist for it.
@Lithium98 - stripsearching me at a red light? nobody wants to see that, but i would definately make a show of it(have to remember always bring pasties with me when i drive.)
@Lithium98 - those laws have all been passed and are currently collecting dust in their codebooks. which may be another reason not to care about this law.. the only way a law means anything is if it’s enforced. personally, the more i think about this, the more retarded i think it is(if they actually do anything about it.) but maybe even just talking about passing the law will help a little. get people thinking. looking for a real solution.
No.
I’m gonna let the people that actually know answer the question. First page sounds like a resounding YES.
Shades of the Gestapo & KGB here…..
have you ever been harrassed for something you didn’t do? i am mexican but don’t speak a word of spanish (for many reasons). is it worth MY rights to “catch” some others that are illegal? is it worth YOUR rights to catch a murderer or thief? is it worth you going to jail and proving your innocence so we can catch a few that aren’t innocent? Just because you have a legal ID doesn’t mean they are going to believe you. I guess I can’t grasp why anyone would think it was OK….
No one should be arrested until after they don’t show an Id or show a fake one.
I am very happy they are finally getting tough on illegal immigration. i don’t want any legal citizens to get mixed up in the matter of course, but i can see how it might happen from time to time. as long as the government restrores those who are here legally i think no harm done.
i actually read that a majority of Hispanics are actually for the measures Americans want to take for getting illegals out of America. i suppose they feel the same way we do about things and are tired of illegals giving them a bad name and rep here in the US. that said I think we should forge on and once and for all solve this illegal problem so we can be at peace with our Hispanic brothers and sisters. (btw- I got that source from a poll printed in this month’s issue of Whistleblower- you can get your own copy from wnd.com- this issue is probably the most neutral of all issues they print- with articles both for and against McCain- very insightful).
My mom had a friend who was harassed for quite a while – and she was a second generation Mexican-American, completely legal, and a college professor. The officer demanded to see her greencard, which obviously she didn’t have…
I don’t really think it’s appropriate. Nobody deserves to be harassed, citizen or not.
Sure, asking to see ID is not harassment, but I would fear that not all officers entirely know the difference.
@I_Am_Twilight - that was called sarcasm, yes? read the previous post before mine.
and technically all Europeans are illegal citizens. just because the Indians didn’t have a system doesn’t mean that they weren’t there first. Europeans gained America by mass murdering the Indians when the Indians welcomed them.
Anyway, it’s too hard for people to become citizens. The Mexicans are in horrible conditions, and the U.S are the better-off neighbors, way better-off. It’s funny how the U.S goes to Iraq willy nilly when there’s a troubled nation right next to them. But then again, Iraq was a stupid move.
Oh and my answer is No. I’m into the whole, “human rights” thing.
No, I don’t think it’s worth it. There has to be a way to background check the person before you arrest them!
@GunStarHero1988 - Whoo hoo!!!
Well, while no system is perfect, arresting a perfectly legal Mexican immigrant on the basis that they could be illegal seems, well, I dunno…wrong? However, if they are unable to provide any documentation or proof that they ARE legal, they should be arrested.
The whole thing about legals getting caught in the crossfire reminds me of a bunch of people being at a loud party, cops run in and bust them, and they arrest everyone regardless of whether or not they were drinking anything at all.
I’m hoping they don’t wind up getting into a bad situation.
The police are going to need to be sensitive in dealing
with this.
No….this is just going to make things worse…sadly.
I lived in Arizona. If you lived there you would understand why they are taking a hard line. I know it is harsh but there are people who sit on their front porch and watch illegals run across their property all day long.
idk… sound aweful to me.. im hispanic! lol but not illigal… im Puerto Rican… we are legal at birth.. i think thats why every other spanish race… hates us
lol
NO.
“Illegal immigration” is just MOVING.
Who the fuck is the US government to stake out a claim to a line of demarcation and just claim that no one can move across it without waiting ten years?
@quinzel86 - I agree, and furthermore, “they’re taking our jobs!” is an example of in-group/out-group social psychology. It’s a logical fallacy to assume that people who look or act differently are inferior or less deserving or anything else. I wish people didn’t have nationalism so firmly ingrained into their minds: the world would be so much better if we stopped all the classifications and just saw ourselves as HUMANS and rated the INDIVIDUAL rather than the population he came from.
@trunthepaige - police don’t have brains. That’s why they go into law enforcement.
@nkleyva - So, the government should spend MY money going after people who have never harmed anyone else? Great. That sounds like a perfect plan.
@lizheartshakespeare - Actually, there’s QUITE a gray area there. Things that are “illegal” are such simply because someone said “hey, let’s refuse to let people do this!” Lifesaving medicines or organ transplants, adults using harmless recreational drugs in their own homes, and even saying that you don’t like the government, are all illegal at least in some parts of the US. However, none of these things are violent against others, and none force anyone to do anything against his will. There is a HUGE difference between violent crimes (murder, rape, and theft, among others) and harmless crimes (driving 51 mph on an interstate where the legal speed range is 45-50 mph, smoking pot in your own home, or even having sex with other consenting adults in your home!).
If you blindly accept every law as fact, without challenging or seeing a difference between things that can HURT other people, and things that are just the government sticking its nose in other people’s business, then you’re a very poor citizen indeed.
@moritheil - Thank you.
@xXxKayleyxXx - So
if the police knocked down your door and took you to the station,
asking you whether you were in the country legally or not and perhaps
questioning you for hours, you wouldn’t mind at all, right?
@trunthepaige - ”Yes there is a look and I could
show it to you. Asians are just as easy. It takes time to get a green
card, and with time comes assimilation. It is more than race, cultures
have a look to them, a way of carrying themselves, a way of dressing, a
look of being out of place, it shows.”
…and apparently you don’t have one, either. Have you ever MET someone who is in this country illegally? Fuck, one of my best high school friends was illegal, and I honestly had NO idea until she told me.
@PSUnited1 - Very few of my ancestors ever waited in line to get into this country. In case you didn’t notice, the founding generation kind of pushed the existing people off their land, and claimed it for their own.
And it’s ABSURD to expect people to be responsible for the actions of other people they have never met, who live in a completely different country on the other side of the world. Do you really want to be held responsible for MY actions, just because we happen to live in the same country? You know that you and I are more closely tied than the Japanese-Americans who lived here during WWII were to the political leaders of Japan, right? So how do you get off telling people that they should be responsible for other people, while having no way to do so? Ugh.
Hell No! The action itself opens the door to arrests for other suspected activities! Law enforcement has to have probable cause for a search and arrest. It may suck for some, but face it, how many here are prejudist against all hispanics, blacks, or anyone who isn’t white? I would suspect quite a few, but without proof, it is better to wait. We are not a martial state just yet, so be careful when you say yes, it’s ok to haul innocent people away along with the guilty as long as the guilty are dealt with.
Yes illegals should be dealt with, but it also needs to be prooved that they are illegal. There is no easy answer to any of it. But to open the door to such actions will lead to anarchy and slam the door firmly on the freedom we enjoy.
@mariqueenofscots - Thank you!
@GlasgowKiss - If you were running out to the store, and didn’t take your ID with you, would you want to be arrested?
@pnklace - Thank you!
@PreciousOnyx - Thanks for listing your source on that poll – I wish more people would do that. But regardless of popular opinion, I still don’t think it’s okay to trample on people’s individual rights.
@Mom4Him - Thank you! My boyfriend is half Columbian, and he doesn’t speak Spanish, either. My half-brothers are part Cuban, and they don’t speak Spanish. Not everyone is so ingrained in their “home” culture that they don’t know anything about the US, particularly natural-born citizens whose ancestors came from different countries.
@Lithium98 - Actually, I can think of a great reason not to make it illegal to hire or house people: it’s called a “free market” and it’s the most efficient and ethical economic system ever understood by the human mind. Not that we have one of those, but I’m really not personally in favor of trampling on people’s rights to do as they want.
@ionekoa - Wait a second. You said that the Mexican economy is suffering because they don’t have enough workers. But you ALSO said that these Mexican workers are sending money home from the US – making more money than they could possibly make in Mexico. Last time I checked, sending money to a country allowed people to buy things. Maybe that’s just me.
And the way to fix our job problem is to cut out government regulations and price floors on compensation (minimum wage). Let employers pick the most qualified candidates who are willing to work for the least amount of money. If that is a Mexican, then why is he better skilled (or able to live on less) than you? Sounds like a personal problem to me.
I think that if a person is contributing to the community, then they should not be arrested. Half of the labor workers are probably illegal immigrants and they’re not depending on anyone because they are willing to work for their stay, whereas there are legal homeless people who depend on taxpayer money to pay for their food just because they’re too lazy to go out and work.
Some of the comments here are disgusting. I don’t see how anyone could be in favor of racial profiling. Our legal Hispanics are doing their very best to be seen as human and be treated like any other U.S. Citizen of another ethnicity, and it’s shit like this, people like the commenters here, who make their lives so hard… to be legal and discriminated against every fucking day is just not fair. I’m flamboyantly gay and I get less shit than my Hispanic neighbors. “Guilty until proven innocent” is not the American way. This is downright wrong.
No. Remind me again when and how America “acquired” California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas….
@la_faerie_joyeuse - Well, if I were pulled over for whatever reason and didn’t have my license, I’d expect them to detain me in some shape or fashion until I could get a hold of someone to bring it to me. After all, having that license gives me the legal ability to drive. It goes the same with pretty much anything that requires a permit or license to do; practicing medicine, building a house, whatever. If I can get along without it without getting caught, then whatever, but they do have a right to stop me from doing it (if not arrest me all together, like not having a license to practice medicine) if I am unable to provide them with one at all. I don’t mean whether or not it’s in my possession, but if it flat out does not exist.
@GlasgowKiss - Sorry, I live in the city, so I usually just walk to the grocery. But what if someone was driving you somewhere, and when you arrived, they arrested you for not having proof of citizenship or residency? I go places all the time without my driver’s license, passport, or birth certificate.
I used to even leave my license in my car (so I’d never forget it), so any time I wasn’t driving, I definitely would not have proof of citizenship. It just seems really authoritarian to require that people have papers on them at all times.
And even if they let you go when someone brings proof that you’re a citizen, that’s a lot of wasted time on your part, just so they could maybe catch someone who simply moved without telling them – someone who hasn’t done anything to hurt anyone else.
i dont agree with the whole immigration thing at all
the reasons ppl give for it are a bit ‘shady’
-they take away jobs is the most recycled hogposh. if ur worried about someone taking ur job then ur not that qualified for the job or are overly listening to your censor
my mom was an immigrant
legal or not i don’t see any issues
about hand me downs
she got hand me down clothes but that is because she didn’t get paid well
she went to school too
and got made fun of for working
currently i work with immigrants
they manage to stay positive
and the bosses talk shit about them knowing they have limited english
some try to learn english, others don’t make the time
but i do encourage them to learn it
I wonder when we started seeing them as a threat
and being unwilling to help them
I find it crazy that this is even an issue
but i guess with all the war, and economy shit
ppl are looking @ someone to blame
or don’t want to share resources as willingly
but really this issue steams me
Profiling should be totally acceptable, it should constitute probable cause in my opinion. Also if you drive a vehicle with foreign plates in the US you should be ready to provide proper identification and justification for being in the US. Not a popular opinion, I know but it is what it is.
Illegal immigration has and is a continuing problem for the U.S. but I don’t support the actions of the Arizona police department. Seems to me, the “zero tolerance” approach doesn’t take into consideration basic rights of minorities who are lawful citizens. As a minority, I think this kind of behavior only reinforces stereotypes and racial profiling. I also believe that illegal aliens are HUMAN. They also deserve humane treatment. We need humane immigration policies!
sounds like The Spanish Inquisition to me….or better yet a good old fashioned American witch hunt.
No system is perfect, but I do think it is worth teh risk. But I don’t think people whould be targeted just because they’re Hispanic. Plus, people forget that while most illegals are Hispanic, not all of them are (I’m sure there are a few illegal Canadians around).
no.
Yay for encouraging racial profiling.
@la_faerie_joyeuse - That would be nice–I live in the country where literally nothing is within walking distance.
Well, if you’re just walking around, there’s really no “walking license” so there should be nothing they can really accost you for. The whole knocking-on-doors things seems like a bit much, because I bet there are plenty of people that you wouldn’t necessarily peg as illegal immigrants that could very well be, and people that seem like it (whatever that means) that are perfectly legal. Racial profiling doesn’t really solve anything.
But, say, they were doing something that would actually require some sort of visa or citizenship such as driving or being formally employed by someone–that would make much more sense to catch them in traffic stops (you need citizenship or a visa to get a driver’s license, right?) or making sure companies account for all employees. The knocking on door’s of random people’s homes seems like nothing more than a big time waster.
@GlasgowKiss - Yes, at least in Georgia, you need proof of citizenship or legal residency to get a driver’s license. But then you’re also missing a huge segment of the illegal population just by cracking down on drivers.
And cracking down on employers means that employers are all sorts of responsible to do background checks on their employees, and besides, I wouldn’t want to be told who I can and can’t hire – even if they’re here illegally, anyone (adult) should have the right to voluntarily exchange anything with anyone else (adult), simply because it’s tyrannical and unjust to take away that right. And employment is just a voluntary exchange of labor for money. But I accept those alternatives to knocking down doors, and will agree to disagree on this one.
Way to go, Arizona. Maybe Oklahoma and Texas will follow suit!!!
@la_faerie_joyeuse - actually, what i said was economic development is stiffled. in other words, their economy is just as dependant on those foreign dollars being sent home now as it was years ago, and isnt any closer to standing on it’s own two feet, nor moving in that direction. when the money runs out from the US, they will have to find another country to send money home from. when the workers leave, there is no one to grow industry. therefore, there is no growth assuming you can read you need to learn how to interperate and understand, to comprehend…
i also think it’s laughable that you think the solution is to drop minimum wage laws. while we’re at it, why dont we go back to the days of “the company store”? yes, the best way to help the working man is to lift the restrictions that keep big corperations from oppressing him. thats great logic. or, actually… no, it’s not.
as to your personal remarks, i dont have 2-4 families living with me chipping in a little a piece to make my ends meet, unlike the other houses in my neighborhood, that do.
@pnklace - I agree that we should be trying to help out people, and I think maybe our policies on immigration laws should change but I don’t think it makes sense to allow people to just walk into our country at their free will. It just doesn’t make sense and we’d be fucking ourselves over. It wasn’t very nice of us to take over the U.S.A when we Europeans moved here, but it’s a silly argument to use. I’m pretty sure Native American’s had no immigration policies, AND it’s not like we were the only country founded by taking over and dismantling the civlization that previously existed.
The point is that there is no win-win situation. We can’t help everyone, and by letting illegal immigrants stay here ILLEGALLY we are overwhelming our country.
@ionekoa - Artificial price floors create shortages, plain and simple. If your labor is worth more than minimum wage, then eliminating the minimum wage laws wouldn’t hurt you. I know very few people who work for minimum wage, and the vast majority of those are employed by work-study as part of their financial aid plan at university. I do, however, know several people who are unemployed and would be willing to work for less than minimum wage if they could have work. It’s not “oppression” to offer someone a certain job rate, even if it’s a low rate.
And again, sounds like a personal problem. I don’t see what government should have to do with that, as no one is FORCING you to make the decisions that you make. If you really want to make more money, then gain new skills or find an employer who more desperately needs the skills you have.
@la_faerie_joyeuse - you are absolutely right, no one is forcing me to eat, wear clothing or pay my bills or have insurance. i highly doubt your unemployed friends are being held back by high wages or that having employers drop the wages they pay would get them jobs. history has shown that corperations WILL pay the least they can get away with, even if they are paying too little. and you are right, low wages alone dont constitute opression, imagine if you will though if walmart were allowed to floor their wages. they could then offer “store credit” to their employees. of course it’s only credit, they still have to pay the asking price for whatever they get. so at the end of the day they end up owning their employees. they cant make enough to pay off the debt, and they still need food/clothing etc. as for your personal issues, this started out as a discussion about goverment policies on immigration and the effects it would have on people, you are the one that wants to make it personal. what should the government do? enforce it’s policies. honestly your inability to make a valid argument on topic and resultant attempts to siderail the conversation into a personal slight is a bit pathetic. you dont think that the scenario with walmart could happen? pick up a history book, it already has. thats WHY we have minimum wage laws. but then, arguing with you is useless since your more after an argument than a logical discussion. disregard history, human nature and common sense. but do so at your own peril.
@ionekoa - I actually also know employers who would hire more employees if they could afford to do so (if they could charge less than minimum wage).
And you’re right, corporations will indeed pay the least they can get away with. And that’s perfectly acceptable, as long as they’re not forcing anyone to work for that wage. If Walmart offered store credit as a portion of wages, I still know quite a few people who would be glad to work there. Obviously, Walmart would still need to provide some monetary compensation for things that cannot be purchased through them, most notably housing. But if these “store credits” weren’t taxed as income, I would sure as hell want THAT job! They wouldn’t “own” anyone, as long as all the employees were there of their own volition. And employees wouldn’t necessarily rack up debt that way. If you get $5/hr in store credit and $2/hr wages (this adds up to more than min wage, but it’d be a feasible plan for walmart to enact), then you can spend $5 in store for each hour you work – without owing walmart anything.
If Walmart decides to make their wages flat out $1/hr, then they won’t have anyone willing to work for them, and they’ll be forced to raise wages if they want their shelves stocked and floors swept.
I’m saying that government shouldn’t have anything to do with things that are PERSONAL issues. That’s not changing the subject or sliding around a topic. If someone is physically threatening you, then the government has the right to step in. If you’re just making decisions for yourself, the government is under no responsibility to protect you, and in fact, it’s unethical for it to waste MY money doing so. I’m saying that these things should not be relevant to government policy because they’re based on decisions that you voluntarily made.
If I was just looking for an argument without logic or reality, I wouldn’t be here: I’d go onto an HP forum and whine about how Ron is the worst character ever invented, or something. But if you don’t want to argue with me, that’s fine, just don’t accuse me of ignoring history, logic, or “common sense.” Pick any point I’ve made, and I can show you exactly why I made that point and why it’s true, at least based on the assumptions I make about the world (which basically boil down to: logic is paramount; humanity is defined by our self-aware, reasonable brains; property rights are the only rights, and necessarily trump any other right).
They shouldn’t be knocking on people’s doors and arresting them on “suspicion.” However, I’d be perfectly alright with everyone’s randomly being asked to provide valid legal documents showing they are citizens/own a green card. This is supposed to happen when getting a job or buying a car/house (not always so successful – an illegal immigrant took out a mortgage on a house 5 years ago using my SS# o____O).
Que?
This country is just now starting to fight an uphill battle, can you say “to little to late”. I’m sure if this fascist cop would have started obeying the laws years ago as opposed now it would lend some credence to his efforts; but seeing that he waited till now, to start to “try” & rid the country of illegal Mexicans, shows his stupidity & ignorance.
My question is why did he wait so long to enforce laws for which he has no jurisdiction over? Oh! now I remember this is the same cop who made a name for himself by dressing his prisoners in pink uniforms. So there it is…he’s still trying to keep his name in the spotlight at the expense of others. What a moron!
Let them come knocking on my door & they’ll find themselves staring down the barrel of my AR-15 spewing nothing but hot lead.
How you like them apples?
Viva La Raza!!
It’s not a matter of being arrested just because you’re of Latin origin. There has to be, as always, probable cause before making an arrest. If, for example, you’re caught up in a raid on a workplace where illegals are employed, are Hispanic, have a limited command of English and no irrefutable documentation to prove your citizenship, you can be rightfully detained until your status is verified. Merely being of Latin ancestry, however, does not render you liable to being pulled over and given the third degree! What’s at work here is that, due to public pressure, many law enforcement agencies are now enforcing laws that they previously- and illegally- ignored. And, as the biggest victims of illegal alien criminality are American Hispanics, you’ll find that quite a few of them approve.
No, we have a judicial system to take care of that.
It’s too random…
Don’t think it will make much difference.