November 12, 2008
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Why Believe in God?
The American Humanist Association is starting a campaign around Christmas time using an ad that reads “Why believe in God? Just be good for goodness’ sake.” Here is the link: Link
One common idea I have read in my comment section is pointed out by a few who don’t believe in God. They wonder why a person needs to believe in God in order to do good. In fact, some of them see it as a fault that a person will do the right thing only because they believe in God.
Is it wrong if your only motive to do good is because you believe in God?
Comments (222)
if only because of him? Yeah, then you kinda suck at life. Do good for the part that makes you feel good, not because it’ll make you go to Heaven.
The result is what counts!
Yes. You should be good for that warm feeling that one gets and bringing a smile to other people’s faces when you do something nice.
Actually, before one can truly “do good”, s/he must have God first…
God is nature. i believe in nature since i am part of it. good and evil is part of nature. Pantheist!
“Is it wrong if your only motive to do good is because you believe in God.”
i guess it depends on what god you like?
Is it wrong if your only motive to do good is because you believe in God?
I think it’s stupid, but it’s not something I mind.
And fucking American Humanist Association: What a waste. They should use the money to feed the poor or something.
I can’t believe this. That’s such a horrible ad!
I think it is kind of bad, though, to just be good because you believe in God. You should do good just because you know it’s the right thing to do, which should come along when you truly know God.
It’s pretty low on the moral development scale. Then again, so is “good for goodness’ sake.”
@JandJinJapan - Actually, before one can truly “do good”, s/he must have God first…
Per percentage point of the population, there are actually more Christians in prison than Atheists.
This likens God to santa. I do not do good to appease God, I do good because it is good.
God helps me get through the times I am not good. God gets me through times when everything is falling apart.
God isn’t the ticket counter at an arcade where you collect your prize for doing good deeds.
God is forgiving and merciful, gracious and loving.
I would find it harder to follow santa, who affords not grace or redemption.
First that there are ads out like that…kind of scares me a little.
Then, alot of times belief in God breeds good behavior because, by nature, God is good. No you don’t have to know God to be good, but I wonder truly how easy it is when you don’t. We are all faulty human beings…
Why should people question your motives if you’re doing good? What about people who do good to gain worldly recognition? Or tax breaks? Or to beef up their resume? Or to avoid jail time? Are those reasons better than people who do good because they believe God calls them to treat their fellow man with love and compassion? Is the American Humanist Association willing to vilify someone like Mother Teresa in order to push their agenda? That campaign is the most idiotic thing I’ve ever heard of.
I beat you on the post, but you’ll get more hits than me. Dang you Dan!!! ;P
@Krissy_Cole - Then again, so is “good for goodness’ sake.”
i agree w/ that.
in response to the question, yes, it is wrong because as a Christian, you don’t behave in a way just because you believe in God. you do something because by what you believe, you choose to live your life a certain way and if part of that is being a “good” person, then so be it.
did i just rephrase your question? possibly.
@huginn - I missed the irony in all of this, and I thank you for pointing it out.
They should have fed the hungry instead of posting ads.
Well, you should want to do good for goodness’ sake, not for the fear of retribution and being denied by god if you don’t.
If you don’t believe in God, how do you know what is good or bad?
Oh great, I see a big debate ahead of us.
Is it ‘wrong’ to do ‘good’…. Let me ask you a different question, is it ‘right’ to do ‘wrong’… Both are not true. It’s always right to do good, and it’s always wrong to do wrong. People just have different motives is all. A kids stealing candy from a store because he wants it, and another stealing candy because he doesn’t have enough money are both wrong in their actions. A student volunteering because they love to do it, and another volunteering because he has to make up credits are both doing good. But who are we to lesser the value of the action because the motive is forced form another party.
If you think yes, then the Pope himself is wrong. And I beleive this question is mainly aimed at highly religious Christian people by non-beleivers, just as the campaign is started by non-beleivers as well.
Here’s another question. If you don’t beleive in God, then define ‘good’.
@larjw91 - So it okay to not believe in God if you are a good person?
We just studied this last night. As a Christian, the representation that we believe in God to do good is misrepresented in this ad. Believing in God gives us our salvation, there are not enough good works in this world to earn that. Doing good is something that is not related to believing or not believing in God. It may change our motivation, but it’s not related. Personally, I believe in God and have accepted his gift of salvation and eternal life. I also do good things to minister to or help others.
@saintvi - Are those reasons better than people who do good because they believe God calls them to treat their fellow man with love and compassion?
If God called you to it, murdering your son is moral.
If God called you to it, a suicide bombing could be the way to go.
Is the American Humanist Association willing to vilify someone like Mother Teresa in order to push their agenda?
The Missionary Position: In stores now.
I wouldn’t say it’s wrong. But one should be good for it’s own sake, because it’s right, not just because they expect some kind of reward from God. Being good should be the default setting, not a celestial bargaining chip. And I say that as a person who does believe in God.
It’s not wrong but if the only reason you’re being good is to avoid some sort of punishment then I don’t think you really know what it is to be good. A lot of people do what they think is good in God’s eyes and yet they may be intolerant or prejudiced or judgmental and that’s not what it means to be good.
The desire to do good, whether it is “for goodness sake” of to please God or for whatever reason comes from God himself. And the strange thing about that is, we do not have to believe in God or profess any belief in Him in order for Him to bless us with that desire. The add campaign is extraneous.
A question: why not?
It is quite obvious there is a God: The idea the there was a great explosion, and were suddenly all exist seems just about as farfetched as an omnipotent being created us all.
I choose to believe the latter.
Yeah. I think you should do good regardless.
I’m Catholic and I can’t imagine not believing that there’s some higher power protecting me and watching out for me. That I have some purpose on this earth. I would’ve killed myself a long time ago if I didn’t believe in God.
Is it wrong if your only motive to do good is because you believe in God?
Wrong? It goes beyond that. It speaks very negatively about the person.
@JandJinJapan - Any statistics, using external evidence you can shore up for that silly claim? Using our brains and our reason is enough. Actions have consequences, and those can usually be seen and measured. The reason I don’t rape little girls is NOT because I fear your god’s punishment or expect a reward for my restraint. How sad that would be! I behave morally because I KNOW that my actions have consequences, and I shudder at the mere *thought* of harming anyone else.
In any case, going by the alleged word of this god of yours (especially the Old Testament), it would be GOOD to rape, pillage and plunder. And don’t give me the line that the OT is invalidated by the NT and your Jesus. The anti-gay movement draws much of its “arguments” from the OT, and the gospels never speak against it, as far as I know. Leviticus 18 has one of the more famous verses quoted by anti-gays. But, in Lev. 19 we get rules against combining different fabrics in a single cloth, against tattoing, against shaving your head…shall we make laws to prohibit those too? Why stop with the gays? What the anti-gays (and most christians) do is called chery-picking. They grab what they want from the text, and “interpret” the rest as “symbolic.” Give me a break.
i do good because it feels good to do good … to give of myself …
@Pt4m1 - Patrick, you know that’s not what I’m saying. Shaddap.
If your only motivation to do good is because you don’t want to go to hell, or perhaps because you want lots of presents from Santa or whatever that part of your motivation is then it is like you have never grown up. That is how parents teach naughty 3 and 4 year olds to behave, but adults should be able to discern when it is good to act one way and when it is acceptable to act another way. To rely solely on fear to make people act right makes it all feel a little bit fake.
@glossygraphicsgirl - Well, the simple humanist denfiniation of good is to excercise one’s free will and liberty without harming the free will or liberty of any other being. There are additional points one could add to this as well – many humanists believe, for example, that if one is not educating oneself to the best extent that one can, then one is kind of failing themselves as a person. Another point is that, because humanists like humans, helping out other people as often as possible isn’t a bad idea. Pretty much everything a Modern Christian believes is good except we’re allowed to sleep with other people before we make an unrealistic lifelong commitment to them. And we don’t read a book of crazy mythology where some angry imaginary friend tells us to stone disobedient children or some long haired hippy tells us to leave our families behind to follow him to be like that. All and all, I think the “humanist” version of good is pretty good, wouldn’t you?
Belief in God is comforting and absolves a person from having to think for him or herself. Instead of thinking, “What hat shall I wear today at lunch?” one can instead say, “God told me to wear this beanie and avoid cheeseburgers and bacon at lunch.” Mormons don’t even pick out their own underwear!
The concept of God is also very comforting in terms of death, as believers are able to tell themselves that there’s a magical, conveniently invisible, wonderland called “heaven” that’s where people go when they die, which is a much nicer thing to believe than what we do know for certain about the afterlife: absolutely nothing.
I believe in God, on occasion.
i won’t lie there are time when i just don’t want a belief to keep me from doing things. but to let the belief in God be the reason one does a good thing, and act of kindness or sacrifice is just well selfish. its like picking up your litter when a meter maid is walking towards you.
you just don’t want to be seen as the cause of all ruin. sad if you ask me.
How do you define good without God? Where’s your standard? You need God to know what IS good.
I don’t think it should be that way at all. That’s like saying I’m only doing something because I HAVE to…I wouldn’t imagine there is much (if any) true reward in that. I believe in God but I “do good” because of who I am…not because of whose I am.
I don’t treat my children well because I HAVE to, I treat them well because I WANT to. Doing “good” should be the same way.
Love the question
IMHO, a belief in a higher power – G-d – and learning these teachings is the example. Being good for goodnes sake is, I believe, the ultimate outcome of believing in G-d and learning his teachings. I also believe that for those who do not believe in a higher power, being good for goodness sake still applies. But to me, regardless of one’s beliefs, it’s all about intent.
To give to the poor, or refrain from doing a bad thing simply because ‘one should do or not do these things’ – be it b/c of G-d, or political correctness is not wrong. But, if you continue to go through life simply going through the proper motions – religious or otherwise, means you are doing these things void of intent.
When goodness comes from the heart, then we have learned from the lessons of G-d, and, I believe that we as humans have ascended spiritually a bit higher. For those that do not believe in G-d, then when goodness comes from the heart and not mearly b/c it’s the ‘right thing to do’, then, you have ascended a bit higher as well
@somebody_u_know - How do you define good without God? Where’s your standard? You need God to know what IS good.
When the Christian says, “Murder is immoral,” he is right because he has Jesus on his side.
When the Muslim says, “Murder is immoral,” he has to be wrong because he believes in Allah.
And when the Atheist says, “Murder sucks,” he is absolutely wrong because he has no God on his side.
@Gerald_Washington - It is quite obvious there is a God: The idea the there was a great explosion, and were suddenly all exist seems just about as farfetched as an omnipotent being created us all.
Christian:
Eternally Existing God —> Big Bang –> Creation/Evolution–> Al Gore –> Xanga
Atheist:
Big Bang –> Creation/Evolution–> Al Gore –> Xanga
I think it’s obvious whose story is more likely.
@huginn - Atheists adopt Christianity in prison.
what if there is no God? and life is a practical joke. Plus, who defines what is good and bad?
@drakonskry - Atheists adopt Christianity in prison.
But this conversion doesn’t actually keep them out of prison.
… Speaking as an atheist, I think there would be a lot more openly horrible people in the world if it were not for the God incentive.
Then again, having a God gives you a divine right to treat people different from you however you want.
Pardon that last comment, actually; I mean however God tells you to. Yes.
desisions…desisions…desisions…
@huginn - Looks good if you want early parole, homes.
@drakonskry - Okay, you win.
(But I think this speaks to the gullibilty of the larger public)
I feel that you should know that you are one of three major reasons I have chosen to leave Xanga for livejournal.
Thanks for contributing to the uncontrolable increase in Xanga’s shittyness over the past year.
This said, I must add that even though I fucking hate roughly 9/10 posts that you make (clearly, an estimated ratio) I still can’t unsubscribe from you and will probably continue to read your posts for the next few months even though they piss me off.
I accredit you as being part of the death of Xanga and hereby officailly dub you “King of Xanga’s Downfall”
In closing, I award you 0/2 eprops as is standard because this post is annoying.
And yes, if you are doing right only because you believe in God than it is contradictory. People who believe in God are supposed to truely want to do good, right? It is supposed to come from their pure little hearts. Otherwise it is just people fearing destiny and what will come if they do what they truely desire. If there is a God, he is certainly all knowing and would frown upon people doing one thing over another based purely on the fact that they know he exists. He would want more.
–Sammantha.
p.s. Who is to say what is “right,” anyway? Who defines wrong? They are words with meanings left open to interpretation.
Uhm, I know I need God and his grace because it is impossible for humans to be 100% good 100% of the time.
@JandJinJapan - I completely agree with you!
@huginn - I completly agree with you also!
Doing good out of fear is the wrong motiveation, and is really not a good work at all, bercause it is selfishly motivated. Doing good for reward, is also selfishly motivated. But if there is no God, and we are all an accident, who is to say what is right and what is wrong? It is servival of the fittest.
Good should be a natural reflection to a relationship with God.
No… but it’s wrong not to do good if you don’t… Hmmm That doesn’t make much sense does it… Does any of it?!
No, because you are doing good. Why does it matter what your motivation in?
Being that there is no proof that any religion is correct, I don’t see where all this arguing is coming from. I think it is wrong to do the right thing purely for the benefit of God, because then the right thing is done only out of pride, and according to Christianity, pride is a sin. Then again, what is defined as “right” is a social standard, so dependant upon the society you live in, the right thing changes. I say just do what you feel is right, just to do the right thing.
I would hope people would do good because of an intrinsic desire to do so, not just to please someone else– be it another person or a God. It seems to me the whole point is to do good things because it is what’s in your heart, not as a way to get at a specific reward.
At the same time, though, it’s better to do good for selfish reasons than to not do any good at all. At least the recipients of that good act still benefit, regardless of the motivation behind it.
who cares why your doing good, is a warm blanket given to a child in need any less warm if the person believes in god or not? as long as the good is done it doesn’t matter why.
Well our idea of good is not God’s idea….nobody is perfect and so that means we are not good, we are all sinners who need Jesus to free us from that sin and make us perfect before God because he bore the sins that we have if we accept him to do that…just doing good is not enough…it says are good works are like rags to God…we can not live up to those standards no matter how much we think we are…but Jesus took those sins upon himself and suffered the consequences although He was perfect so that he may reconcile us with God and that’s called grace…we can’t do it by ourselves.
I tend to believe that deep down in everyone is the desire to be a good person. Of course, my husband says I’m naive and that’s why I get taken advantage of all too often.
Also, my belief in God’s law keeps me from doing certain things more often than not.
I think goodness should come from love for your fellow human beings.
Not fear of the big man in the sky.
I read that yesterday.
To answer your question: YES.
<3 your xangahood Atheist. =]
@JandJinJapan - Completely false. Morals come from social evolution, not god.
@somebody_u_know - No, no you don’t. Humans existed before god.
@drakonskry - What evidence do you have to support this?
I’ve actually seen studies where inmates overwhelmingly choose a secular form of rehabilitation over a christian one. The results are amazing.
@huginn - but do those Chrstians go into prison as Christians or do they become Christians in prison? Also, are those who go in as “Christians” active Christians or do they just call themselves that even though they don’t believe in/live by the Bible?
No, but it’s unfounded and irresponsible logic. But hey, whatever makes this world a happier place.
I do not need religion in order to have morality. I actually feel like I tend to make choices that are decidedly more moral because I’m not looking to anyone, or anything, else for ‘forgiveness’ if I do screw up. All I have to answer to are the natural consequences of my actions. I don’t cheat on my husband because I love him and wouldn’t do anything to risk our marriage or hurt him. I don’t go out and murder someone because I’d never want to inflict harm on someone else that I wouldn’t want inflicted on me. It’s called empathy. I don’t steal or do shady things because I want to be able to sleep well at night and I have my own conscience to keep me on the ‘right track’… The same goes for the good things I do. I donate our clothes to non-profit charities because I know what it’s like to be in need. I give all my extra change to the Salvation Army and Red Cross because I believe in what they do and I know that even a little bit helps.
To each their own, but I choose to do good because I can empathize with other people’s plights and I don’t need a book to tell me how to do it.
One more thing- the focus here seems to be on the Christian belief of God… which isn’t surprising given the popularity of Christianity in this country. But to those who are Christian and think that YOUR God is the ONLY God, what’s your arguement against someone doing good deeds for *their* God? Does that make them any less graceous for having done it?
People should be good on their own.
@Mom4Him - Excellently stated, my exact sentiments,
Cheryl
I don’t “do good” for God. I do it for my own reasons. My personal relationship with God is much more complex than that, so much that I know that I don’t have to “prove” myself as a Christian and do good for Him all the time. It can be for myself too. Everyone needs a personal boost once in a while, no?
@insaneblogger - Oy. You could’ve written a much better essay on Their Eyes Were Watching God for my lit class than I did, I suspect.
God is Nature, and all that.
what is “good” ? to each his own
i don’t believe in God because of “goodness” or “morality” or anything like that. i believe in God because i believe in the divinity of all human beings. we are one.
Can YOU tell me what “good” is? take your time, think about it, weigh all the options, read up on philosophy, religion, ethics, etc. I have all the time in the world. I suggest starting with Socrates. Have fun
The outcome’s the same, so why does it matter?
I personally think its a waste of time.. You should do good for some other human being
Who determines what “good” is?
Kinda.I’m very unsure of my stance on religion,and one day I wanna be atheist and the next I want to be more religious.
But yes,I have wondered about this.My Mom,when she heard about my doubts on god,that I “would have a very heard life without god”,and said we needed some kind of emotional crutch to fall onto(a.k.a god).And my Mom said I would be very damgaed in this world without god to cry to.
Now,really,if you’re only good because you’re scared of being punished,isn’t that as much as not being good at all?God’s omniscient,and he knew that to give man free will would be his downfall,despite his forbidding them from the tree of life.And yet he gave it anyway.Isn’t it about freedom to choose,our weakness and our strength?Still,the bible does use the term “god-fearing”,though that could just have been lost in translation.
I do admit to turning back to religion in times of crisis,and feel awful for it,i feel like a hypocrite.
@CrunchyMountainMomma - we do.lol.every man must live by his own rational (or irrational,as the case might be) perception of reality.On the other hand,if you hurt people (and break laws in the process) because of your perception,they lock you up.obviously.
I’m going to say that I think it’s bad to only do good because of god. Partially because if you were to lose faith in god, then whats there to make you want to do good. You have to want things for yourself not for some “higher being.”
Okay. So enter into the equation things like speeding, abortion, drinking, disciplining your child, beatting your wife. “Good” is a perception that varies from person to person. I think abortion is wrong. You might see it as ok. I see beating your wife as bad-fortunately so does my husband. But my father saw it as good. Not having a standard set by a higher power is a bad litmus test for “good”. Man cannot determine good.
Humanism is flawed in this campaign. Look at a 5 year old. If left to his own devices, my 5 year old thinks it’s good to grab a Spiderman toy from his 3 year old brother, punch him i n the face and walk awa. As a parent, my job is to teach him right from wrong. But what if my parents didn’t teach me it was wrong to hit people and steal their toys? The human nature has no sense of right or wrong.
@CrunchyMountainMomma - and the answer is?
I think people should be good no matter what but that leads to the question of the source of your belief in goodness, which is a whole other issue.
I find that the more I honestly look at reality the more I believe in the wild, passionate, if seemingly psychopathic, God of the Old Testement than the sleek, rational one most churches preach today.
OK if you can’t answer the question “what is good” then how about this one “what is quality”
@valis10 - If you have faith in a higher power, your higher power determines right from wrong. I happen to believe in God, and Christ. So, for me, my sense of good, or right and wrong comes from my teaching from the Bible.
But yours might come from somewhere else. Human nature however cannot determine it.
“Lord of the Flies”……anarchy will prevail if we have no standards set by a higher power.
@CrunchyMountainMomma - Jesus said “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God: but if thou would enter into life keep the commandments” Matthew 19:17
“Good” is a very elusive concept
I say “yes.” If your only motivation for being a good person is fearing the wrath of God, you aren’t a very good person anyway.
“The idea the there was a great explosion,
and were suddenly all exist seems just about as farfetched as an
omnipotent being created us all”
that is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. you are saying that God must exist because the other major theory is less than or equally far fetched as the idea of a being creating everything.
If both ideas are far fetched than maybe neither is true.
No.
@valis10 - The point I was trying to make is that the AHA is in the wrong-humanism cannot determine good for goodness sake.
@RdKingClassic03 - Is that a serious question?
@CrunchyMountainMomma - The point I was trying to make is that the AHA is in the wrong-humanism cannot determine good for goodness sake.
So “Good” can only be defined by man-written books of purported heavenly influence?
well i dont think you have to believe in god, to do good… but if you do believe in god, it brings you closer to him spiritually. Whenever one does something they know is not right, expecially knowing god is watching, its thier guilt or fear that gets to them.
As a christian, as a kid i didnt understand empathy, until I understood guilt. That there was a greater quality of life with god, and to know when i did good, not only did i feel better about myself and to those I have wronged, I brought myself closer to god.
For those people who are genuinely good (a many people) and without religion, weither christian, jewish, muslim, buddism or even karma, I commend them, because I needed religion to teach me. As stupid as it sounds, weither I had decided to to become christian or not, religion gave me what i believe are good morals to live by.
For those who only do good to buy a place in heaven, theyre fooling themselves, yet doing a favor for humanity. Only faith can get you to that place… instead of “if there is a god, i dont want to piss him off” gestures.
@CrunchyMountainMomma - so there has to be a standard for “good”? in order to call something or someone good you must have an antithesis
I just believe in god because it frees my spirit……and I’m kind because it comes from within me….not because I feel I have to be good…..
Doing what’s right because of a fear of god is very twisted…
But, the song says to be good because Santa is watching you….is the add insinuating that some people believe Santa Clause is a God???
However to answer your question, I don’t think it’s wrong that some people do good solely because of God….. If more people in this world would do good, no matter their motives, we would be a lot better off.
I don’t know that belief in God is really the issue. If someone does good only out of fear of God or punishment, they are missing the whole love your neighbor message and the message that love should always be our motivation for our actions. You don’t have to “believe” in God to do that, but I don’t know that it hurts either.
Absofuckinglutely, not to mention it kind of demeans the meaning behind Christianity.
Being good for goodness sake is noble. You don’t have to believe in God to do good. In fact, there are a lot of christians I know who pretty much suck.
I would love to hear these guys try to define exactly what “goodness” is. Heh.
Someone once responded to my comment that we who aren’t Christians do things with ourselves in mind, whereas Christians do things with God in mind… but if you think about it, Christians do things they think God wants so they’ll go to Heaven. That’s a selfish end, isn’t it? We who do good without thinking it’ll get us to Heaven, but instead knowing it makes us feel good to make others feel good, know that we’re going to be rewarded, if not only by ourselves. It’s selfish, but no more selfish than being good just so you can get to Heaven.
I don’t think you have to believe in good to do good.
You should do it anyways.
It’s not because of the existence of God alone, but it is also what makes us become a good person all around. Without God, we wouldn’t know what is right and wrong. So in a sense, it is for ourselves and for God’s glory, as intended.
This reminds me of a philosophy course I took in college. We were discussing.. Boethius’ Cosolation of Philosophy, I think. The only concept that’s really stuck with me from the whole thing is the idea that: God is good, therefore any subsequent good that is done in the world - is already of God.
I personally don’t believe in god. But saying that someone is wrong because they do good in the name of something I personally don’t believe in is stupid. It doesn’t matter who or what you believe in, what you name your “higher power” so to speak, as long as you are a good person. Why should it matter why you do good, or who you do it for?
I don’t know if anyone’s pointed this out, but it says “why believe in a god?” not “why believe in God?” To me, that can drastically change the context.
Coming from a Christian, yes, I think so. You should do good because you want to do good, not because “Big Brother” is watching. Besides, is it really goodwill if you’re doing it to help put yourself in a better position? I’m going to put change in jars raising money because I know that it’s for people who really, really need it more than I do…I’m not going to put the change in jars because I think it’ll better my chances of getting into Heaven.
@Mallinz - I find that being free of superstition is like a breath of fresh air. If you feel that religion is not enough, and you only go to it in times of crisis, then it might be time to completely drop it. In times of crisis (and I’ve been through a few) you have to rely on yourself, and your loved ones for support. That feels, to me, empowering and comforting.
there are many who believe in God, but do not do good .as there are also many who do good but don’t believe in God.
@CrunchyMountainMomma - I have to disagree. I think there are natural consequences to all of our actions, and I think that prevents a lot of us from doing exclusively what’s best for the self above all else. People’s ability to empathize and their concern for others is what prompts the goodness inside of them. Are Christian’s any more likely to be a ‘good’ person just because of their belief in ‘Christ’- I haven’t found that to be so, and I could rant for hours about how far away Christianity has really come from the true teaching’s of Christ, but I digress. I think it’s an individual choice whether to be ‘good’ or not, and that morality does not have to be shaped by a book or parent (had you of met my parents, you’d understand.. though perhaps I did learn some of what -not- to do from them.) I know for myself, I don’t do immoral things because I either don’t want to reap the consequences for it, or I don’t want to hurt others in the process. I believe I do good because I know what it’s like to need, or hurt, or lack something and if can give something back to someone in those situations, all the better.
@In_Reason_I_Trust - Agreed. My motto is ‘Believe in YOURSELF above all else.” It is most definitely empowering. Kudos.
Why not believe in God?
i dont
@Gerald_Washington - Good one.
i’m just glad christians are not the only religious nuts with poor marketing skills. although, this is a much better presentation that the atheist bus signs Dawkins payed for in london.
It’s not wrong, but it’s a little off. You should do good because it’s good for everyone, not because you’re afraid of punishment.
These issues are controversial of course, but i’ve got to admit that I like the advertisement.
@nattata - of course it is, because without God there is no right or wrong.
It definitely defeats the purpose; we’re supposed to do good because it comes out of our being, not solely to get into Heaven. That’s almost greedy.
I would like to flip this question around and ask…
if the only way for someone to “be good” is to believe in God, then why not let them?
truth is a pretty flexible thing in the end. whatever makes people commit acts of kindness is fine with me.
that’s why I don’t go around attacking people’s faiths. who knows? maybe being a christian [muslim, jew, pagan, buddhist, whatever] is the only thing stopping them from being the next serial killer.
I hate the fact that Xians took Odin away from Xmas and called him Santa.
It is wrong if obeying God’s commands is one’s sole motive for doing good, but I believe few people are actually motivated by that factor alone.
@beccabussa- I
have to disagree. I think there are natural consequences to all of our
actions, and I think that prevents a lot of us from doing
exclusively what’s best for the self above all else.
Natural consequences are useful to a certain extent, but they are meaningless when social and economic barriers are broken; for example new Orleans after Hurricane Katrina.
How can you discuss good without referencing evil? There cannot be one without the other.
If there are no eternal consequences for good or evil than what difference does it make? If you can get what you want and what you need, for yourself, than it seems that’s what you should do.
Evolution – the survival of the fittest - seems to me to support the idea that self interest is a “high priority” if not the most important one.
@valis10 - I’m confused about your comparison to New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina? Do you mean that people’s morality went on the back burner to survival after that point?
And you idea of ‘evil’ is subjective. Your idea of what is ‘evil’ might not be my own, especially outside of the context of religion. That being said, religion gave birth to the idea of ‘evil’- now if we’re talking about ‘right’ v. ‘wrong’, then ok.
I, personally, do not need the idea of eternal consequences in order to live the best possible life that I can right now. The legacy I leave my children and those I loved are what matters the most to me in this life. I don’t have to do something to appease a God full of wrath because I ‘sinned’.. I believe that keeps me personally (again, I say personally, because I believe some people to be unable to create their own moral boundries, so they have to have a religion to tell them the difference) from doing things in this life that might hurt those around me. I ask myself if that is the person I wish to be remembered as, and that leads me down the ‘right’ path more often the not.
In terms of evolution, what about the idea that mentally, perhaps those of us who don’t need the bible have evolved our own sense of morality seperate from religion, that is no less effective then that of those that follow it? There’s no evidence saying evolution is exclusively physical.
Perhaps the deeper question would be “If you are doing good, for the sake of doing good, and it is indeed good, how is that possibly bad?”
As an Atheist, I do good things/act nice whenever I want to. The reasons for doing so are varied, but most of them have something to do with making others feel good. While I don’t think it’s necessarily bad to do good just because you believe God will be happy with you, it makes me feel a lot better to be ‘good for goodness sakes’ rather than ‘be good because there’s an invisible deity in the sky watching your every move’.
However, I also do bad things/treat people like shit just for the hell of it, so I guess believing in God gives people an incentive for being good?
If someone does good things ONLY because they believe in god they aren’t doinf bad… they’re just not good either. People should be good to each other for people’s sake, not for the sake of any higher (or lower, fiery) power.
No.
Probably.
@RdKingClassic03 -
If you don’t believe in God, how do you know what is good or bad?
It’s called common sense, being reasonable. It’s within the human nature.
@insaneblogger - when u run out of things to believe… it comes back to god
@Zayin_michael -
Very well said. Agreed 100%.
@livingfortommorow - I agree with you on this. Which is actually a big issue for me, because that seems to be the case for many who call themselves believers in Christ.
Although that said according to the Bible, in order to truly be “good (or righteous) people” we need to both be in a right relationship with Him, and to have the power to live right that only God can supply in order to do so.
It is all well and good to simply act pious or like a good person when deep down your life really isn’t good; or when you aren’t really succeeding at being a righteous person. -Or for that matter, when your heart is not really in what you are doing; ie, deep down it is based on self-righteousness, so you can appear or feel like a good person.
@huginn - Can it be defined by man? Or given it’s boundaries by man? Like I pointed out, if man is left to his own devices, human nature leads us to our own wants, which are not always “good”. And if you believ ein God, then you believe that the Bible as it stands is God-inspired, handed to man by God. I do believe that it has been bastardized, even the KJV. There’s no WAY one book could contain all that a SUpreme Being handed down. Just can’t be.
Yes. It is wrong.
That’s like painting a beautiful work of art and admitting that you only did it for the paycheck.
@beccabussa - I agree that Christians can be some of the creulest people out there. So, humanists are wrong and those of any faith are wrong? I don’t know. I’m tired of debating ethics and morality today. I’ve battled it here, on another forum and with my children-a teenager in particular. I’m supremely in favor of the ideal that humanism produces extremely selfish twits though, because my teenager is a walking example of humanism and she’s the most horrid creature I can imagine, while my younger chidlren are strong Christians and are generally much nicer people.
I imagine each person will have their own opinion. Shrug.
@CrunchyMountainMomma - Can it be defined by man? Or given it’s boundaries by man?
Yes. There are atheists in hte United States– their incidence of crime isn’t any higher than a Christian’s.
Japan is by and large a secular country. Yet, as a country they are more “moral” and peaceful than the United States. Things like gun violence there is rare.
Like I pointed out, if man is left to his own devices, human nature leads us to our own wants, which are not always “good”
That’s what you think– but my “atheists in the United States” and my “Japan” examples show otherwise.
And if you believ ein God, then you believe that the Bible as it stands is God-inspired, handed to man by God.
The morality of the Bible isn’t much different from that of any other holy book. It’s not as if Buddhists and Muslims act like wild beasts only becase they don’t have the properly-inspired passages of the Bible.
The problem with humanist theories is there is no hard proof that being good is any better than being bad. Humanists take their core beliefs with faith just like any religion does.
If I don’t believe in God, why should I do good for goodness sake if I know i wont’ end up in jail? what motivation do I have? If I can lie, and get away with it then why not? If I can steal and get away with it then why not?
Why can’t I steal food to feed my hungry kids, if I know I wont get caugt? I’m doing good because I’m feeding my kids. Why can’t I steal from the rich and give to the poor, if I know I wont get caught. Hey, giving to the poor is good!! What’s wrong with sleeping with your neighbor’s spouse? What’s wrong with only seeking pleasure for yourself, regardless of what other’s may think of you- why is that not good? It certainly is GOOD for me!!!
If there’s no God or Heaven then I’m sorry, it sucks to do good all the time, and frankly it’s a waste of life.
As for Japan, maybe there “good” b.c they have harsher punishments. For example, ppl don’t steal in Saudi Arabia and most of them believe in God. But an athiest would be quick to point out that don’t steal becaue they know they’ll get hands cut off. So your arguement means really nothing, hugginn.
Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good except Godalone.”
Man is incapable of being “good.”
@beccabussa - How close are we to social anarchy? A hurricane, a coveted sports title, a terrorist attack? My reference to Katrina was that it does not take much to remove the veneer of civility.
And your idea of right vs wrong is NOT subjective? Who is writing the rules for you? and what is the difference between good vs evil and right vs wrong.
Your moral boundaries are good for you I hope, but please do not try to impose them on me. Since they are yours and yours alone I hope you keep them to yourself.
as per usual your comments seem to be most driven by an anti-christian bias.
So you say that altruism is an evolutionary trait? Is there any historical evidence for this development? If so I would like to hear it.
@valis10 - Last time I checked, I wasn’t pushing anything on you- I’m merely expressing my own beliefs which you continue to feel the need to attack, since it doesn’t meet up with your ‘standards’.. Just because you need God and morality to live the life you do doesn’t mean I have to have the same to lead an equally moral life. I didn’t say altruism was an evolutionary trait, I only threw the idea out there because I don’t believe it can be disproven either.
When it comes to situations like Katrina, I think people *must* revert back to basic survival instincts. No matter how moral you are, no matter how Christian you believe yourself to be, I don’t know of a single person who would put morality above feeding their children or finding a warm place to sleep at night. Does that give people the ability to kill or rape others and rightfully so? Of course not. And there weren’t an atypical number of those things happening then, so that’s a moot point. What people do in extrenuous situations is human survival- and I’ve found that supercedes any religion when a person’s safety is at risk. Maslow’s
hierarchy.
The fact is, in normal every day life, I’m no less moral then you simply because I do not follow a particular religion. That was my entire point.
@valis10 - And I apologize for the change in names- this is beccabussa- just one is my personal Xanga and one is my public. Just felt the need to clarify.
@bethechangeyouwish2see - Thanks for the clarification, and I don’t think I was attacking you personally.
My point about your moral code and not pushing it is just this. If it is your personal moral code than it is yours and yours alone. Don’t expect me, or anyone else to follow it. No animosity meant by that, just reality.
What I have been trying to say is that without some reference point, what rationale do you give for “moral” behavior? Why is “eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die” not a viable code for living?
@goalsforjanuary - I believe that a lot of philosophers have been trying to do debate those questions for quite a while now..
@valis10 - I believe I responded to someone else about this previously but if it was you I had responded to already, I apologize for repetition.
What keeps me from the “eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die” mentality, as you put it, is that I ask myself every day what legacy I wish to leave for my children. What do I want to leave for my children once I am gone? Who do I want them to remember me as? And I live my life accordingly. I try and set the example for which I want them to live, every single day. That is my morality. That is my moral compass. Prior to them, I just did as much as I could to not hurt others and make the best choice I could to live a good life. I believe I’ve done that more often the not, even without religion. No one, religion or not, is perfect. And I’m by no means trying to argue that I am any more near perfection because of my lack of religion, only that I am no less imperfect because of it either.
My entire arguement is that some people (not all of course) do not need God in order to have morality.
Instead of causing me to argue my point, what is yours behind the belief that people must have God to have morality?
@le_meme_chose - Right on!
It’s not “wrong,” but doing good only so you can get some reward in the afterlife does not sound very upright.
Frankly, I’m ashamed that the AHA is doing this. Campaigning their beliefs makes them almost as bad as missionaries. Leave rabid converting up to the religious.
@thefreakingawesome - Beautifully put!
I agree that people should do good, and I don’t think people need a god to do that. (ei. Morality wasn’t formed by religion, rather, religion was formed by morality)
But I think this ad is insensitive too, “Why God?” implies that people are foolish for believing in a god, which I think is just as insensitive as people who say it’s foolish to believe in a god.
@bethechangeyouwish2see - My entire arguement is that some people (not all of course) do not need God in order to have morality. Instead of causing me to argue my point, what is yours behind the belief that people must have God to have morality?
Did I ever say that one must have God to have morality? I have been trying to say that you cannot have morals without a standard. You must have a reference, ie to say that you have ethics or morals or what ever you want to call it there must be an antithesis. If you make it up for yourself, then it is yours and yours alone. Doesn’t make it good or bad, just makes it yours.
You want to leave a legacy? That’s admirable, why? You want the best for your children, that’s admirable, why? You appear to me as someone that in fact is very conservative, you just have a big chip on your shoulder because of a bad experience with Christianity.
@Atomic_emmcee - Yeh the discussion has been going on for at least a couple of thousand years.
At least the philosophers have thought it through!
Well a lot of time the “good changes” due to God. Like what Mother Teresa said “We can not do great, acts only small acts with great love.” Is it better to do good, for goodness sake, because thats what society says is right. Or to be good to share God’s love, because God is love.
Also morality often differs whether Christian or not, or between different denominations of different religions. Is it better to make it easier and less traumatic for women to have abortions, or to teach about other options, and fund adoption/foster care services?
Its really a tragedy if a person’s entire foundation for morality and strength comes completely from something that can’t be proven.
I don’t see why people can’t spend the extra time thinking of other reasons to be good or about the definition of good instead of letting themselves be spoon fed by someone on a church stage. The strongest of people are those who are able to think for themselves.
@valis10 - Conservative how so? I actually think I’m pretty far from it based on today’s idea of what ‘conservative’ is…
My distaste for religion comes from my experiences from it and the hypocracy I’ve seen over the years. It’s hard not to generalize when the general population where I live has the same view on things (ie. bible belt.) I realize it’s a flaw and I won’t deny that it is all my own. I wouldn’t call it an intolerance so much, since I do have a few Christian friends who try whole heartedly to practice what Christ preached, instead of what the New Testament tries to impart on people. (Love and acceptance vs. hate and wrath.) My issue is with the idea of God as a wrathful, vengeful being. In all truth, I openly believe in God- just not the God most popular religions preach about. I’ll happily argue against the possible existance of a God because I don’t believe anyone can ever really know until we’re dead… But do I live my life by what I believe God would want me to do? No. Not at all. And why live my life to leave a good legacy? Because I hope that I can lead my kids by example. Not a ‘do as I say, not as I do’ type of thing, but a ‘you won’t turn out too bad if you can learn from me, and my mistakes’… I teach my daughter respect for all people, regardless of differences (yes, including religion) and I work hard to be an example for her instead of just a guide.
And again, you didn’t state your personal stance…
@nattata - which comes from God. Otherwise we would be just like any other animal.
Well, if you truly believe in God and follow Him, you’ll do good nonetheless. Your faith will transform your life and you’ll find joy in doing good.
Answering the question, it could be worse. It’s not terrible, but they should find it in themselves to do good. If that’s the only reason they’re doing good then A. they really don’t believe in God and are just saying it or B. They don’t have enough faith yet
Hey, guys! Let’s all work together to destroy thousands of years of culture and tradition for the betterment of America, trampling over and belittling as many happy religious people as possible!
Oh, no. Wait. That doesn’t exactly work, does it?
God gives some people a purpose in life, and that’s a reason to do good.
It’s their motivation, and we all need some in our life, no matter where the source.
Whoa, it’s funny to read that because I’ve always said “Why believe in the devil?” I grew up in Catholic school and was always taught you were good because you didn’t want to go to hell, I didn’t want to be good because I was scared, I wanted to be good because that’s the kind of person I want to be.
I don’t think that one needs to believe in any god, let alone the Christian god, to do good or charitable deeds. It all depends on your motivation. I do them because I believe in helping my fellow human beings and, as an added bonus, it adds up to better karma.
I don’t believe in God but always try to be the best person I can be. I don’t do good because I’m trying to score afterlife points, I do good because its a fucked up world and the world needs everybody to do some sort of good. We are all responsible for making the world a better place.
Unless you are naturally ‘good’, there must be a motive for acting in a ‘good’ manner. Why would it be a negative if that reason is God? I think society is better off regardless of why individuals are ‘good’, just so long as they behave ‘good’. The individuals themselves could suffer if they are ‘good’ for the wrong reasons. One could, for example, suffer emotional angst knowing the false motives within the heart/mind that conflict with the ‘good’ action. Of course, it all depends on what the definition of ‘good’ is.
@RdKingClassic03 - I knew you’d say that but please have another look at your first question. This reply has nothing to do with it!
I think it’s delusional and ultimately meaningless. Whether or not that is what defines wrong is not really the point.
@Mom4Him - amen!
Can the essence of God be present in all things that are good?
@RdKingClassic03 - Perhaps I’ve misunderstood your point, but people learn right and wrong, good and bad from the teachings they receive from their family, teachers, community, etc. Not specifically from their belief in God.
To answer the question, no, it isn’t wrong if your only motive to do good is because you believe in God. But it is perhaps a bit of a shallow reason to do good.
“I only do good because I believe in God” suggests that if you didn’t believe in God, you would be off raping and pilaging. But there are millions of examples of people who don’t believe in God who do good in their lives.
you don’t have to believe in god to do good! but you do need to believe in god to get into heaven.
Christians believe that there is this thing called ‘Trinity’ and it is God in the form of Our Father, Jesus Christ and your Soul. When you feel guilty it is God speaking from your Soul that you have done something wrong, and guilt is also one of the main things he judges on, but as well as when you feel good about yourself it is praise from God.
So can you see how your argument ‘Being good for the sake of being good’ is intertwined with God at least from a religious point of view?
Either way we all have to choose our ways in life, but I can tell you that I do not agree with any sort of outcry from either believers (to any religion) or atheists to argue that, which isn’t what the humanists are doing off course but I wanted to mention this anyway.
At the end of the day, no one knows, its as simple as that. If you are Religious then you cannot know for you aren’t to test God, your supposed to put faith in him. If you take a scientific point of view, you’d be surprised how much misconception there is, Science has no explanation for what the necessary catalyst was to cause the Big Bang, Never mind getting the weather forecast right. So lets all agree to find our own way in life. Don’t be just another Christian who doesn’t fully make up his mind about what the bible is telling HIM, and don’t be another slob that watches too many dumbed down documentaries and take scientific THEORY as a fact.
@nattata - The points you’re making to rdkingclassic (sp?) are great. That said, I don’t think the discussion will go anywhere. When people repeatedly state “it comes from god, it comes from god” (which is an arbitrary, unfounded assumption), there’s really no room for a debate based on reason and logic.
Good question. Yes. One shouldn’t need inspiration to do good.
Yes it’s wrong. God is much more than just doing good things for others or kindness. Yes, you can always do good even if you don’t believe in God but if you do believe, then it’s not just about doing good things. ‘Cause when you believe, there are other questions you might want to answer about God and your relationship with Him.
And don’t do good and believe in God, expecting ‘rewards’ and ‘blessings’ from Him, because that’s the wrong attitude. The right one should be that you do good because you want to help benefit others and eventually bringing them from a bad situation into an improved one through your help.
Who here drives the speed limit because of the law? Some drive whatever they want hoping to not get caught, some drive it because it’s the law. Would I drive the limit if there was no law? I’d drive what I thought was safe for me….but there’s other cars out there and if some old person figures what is safe for them is 10mph, and I think 60mph for me, we’re going to wreck each other. When there is no standard, everyone decides what is right for themselves. Can we all really be safe then?
@nattata - I really hope you’re not implying “the ends justify the means” is ok.
I believe in atheism in the name of god.If the boodha is consulted,gautamma said its good even if the generosity is towards perceived awaited riches when you croak.In general there is none hollier than the atheist who is kind and compassionate towards life.If I were Supreme Deity I would like them best.Those nice by nature rather than law.If you don’t agree I will start a Spanish Inquisition!!!!!!!Nobady expects that.In addition, any position you take implies its opposite.So atheists believe and believers don’t kind of sort of.
@methodElevated - No, that’s a different story.
@In_Reason_I_Trust - Yes, I guess you are right!
@Atomic_emmcee - is there an answer yet?
Motivation comes from within, and what a person does defines him. I’d have trouble trusting a person who did not stand for anything. Behaving on the basis of a god is hiding oneself.
What is the statement behind your question? Is it wrong? You think it could be wrong to do right for the wrong reason. Come now.
“is it wrong to do good…?”
By definition of doing good, you are doing good. Is doing good bad? If you do good by a bad person, you are being just, and therefore, good. If you are doing good to do good, it seems as if there is no reason to be good. I think it is not good to do a deed of any kind without a motive. It is just doing a deed.
To do good just to be good has the motive of either obeying law and fitting into society, to be courteous as to recieve praise for yourself, or for religious people, to recieve the rewards of a God.
If you do good for yourself, you are sort of selfish, and if you are doing good for someone else, you are as good as doing good for a God.
Either way, no one is going to do a good deed for the sake of being good without a furthur motive.
@JandJinJapan - You forgot the part that says: “in my opinion.”
@drakonskry - totally out of context but why are you posing as DMV?
I am amused that some are appalled by the ad. I find nothing wrong with the ad…and I am one of those “christians”. I believe the atheist have the right to express their opinons publically.
Now, to the central point, my first thought is, “What is good?” What criteria do we use? Is there a standard? Is it possible for something to be good to me, but bad to you?
Now, I mentioned that I am a Christian. My values, principles, code of conduct is colored by that belief and by the particular expression of that God. Having said that, I also do good because I think I should do good.
Someone that does not believe in a God also does good because they think they should do good. The only difference is that we might use a different base for our code of conduct.
http://www.goinggreenaccidently.blogspot.com
@thefreakingawesome - There is nothing bad about painting a beautiful picture only for the money. (why let a person that can paint with beauty go without money to eat, house and to be clothed with)
@brumbor - The point is that good is good. That is to say: that it is not bad, and therefore doing good for any purpose is not bad, because you are doing good.
@brumbor - Thank you for being one of the few SENSIBLE christians who’ve been posting here. i could say the same about the atheists as well, because people were missing the point entirely. Good is good is good. Period.
jhim43, the problem is that there are times when what one person views as good clashes with what someone else views. How is this resolved? What about where one’s person’s good act clashes with what someone else views as good, i.e. Robin Hood?
http://www.goinggreenaccidently.blogspot.com
nimbusthedragon,
Thanks for the compliment. I consider myself a THINKING Christian.
The onlyn question I would ask about “good is good is good” would be, what do you do when 2 different people’s view of good clashes, i.e. Robin Hood?
http://www.goinggreenaccidently.blogspot.com
Let me give a couple of more modern examples:
A person drives nails or spikes into trees in an area where a logging company is cutting so that the peson suing the saw is injured and the logging company will have to stop cutting down the forest. This person believes that they are doing good.
A person blows up an abortion clinic because they believe that a fetus is a human life and therefore abortion is murder. This person believes they are doing good.
A person does not record all their income on their income tax statement because they believe that the government is wasting their money and they need to take care of their family. This person believes that are doing good.
A person takes materials off a construction site in order to repair roof damage done to their home during a hurricane. They do this becasue they can not afford to repair the roof and they need to provide for their family. This person believes they are doing good.
I am not condoning any of these actions
What say you?
http://www.goinggreenaccidently.blogspot.com
You should believe in God based on whether or not God actually exists or not. If he exists, believe in him, if he doesn’t, don’t believe in him. So it should depend on how you answer the question of his existence, not on whether you think you need him a moral crutch.
I don’t see what’s wrong with a person who does good solely because they believe in God. Because if God doesn’t exist, you can do whatever is in your own personal interest, which could include rape, murder, or whatever. Why not do them if there is no God as long as you can get away with it, and you prefer it? And there’s no good answer to that question.
my brother doesn’t believe in God because he wants people to do good things innately and not because they’re afraid of going to hell. I believe that I do good things not because I’m afraid of going to hell but to show God that I love Him. Following His commands are a way of showing him my love and my way of pleasing him. I do good things so as to not disappoint those I love the most… my friends, my family, and God.
Whateverz clever I reckon.
I wonder about the value of going to deep in to this without considering the risk of causing harm to someone via an overloaded silicon chip.There was this dude called Gurdjieff back in the day who many have differing opinions about.I think he got a little lost,but before i doo,…..one thing I believe he was right about was that it was surely a sin to ruin assunder a belief system in another that results in non harming actions in general.
@glossygraphicsgirl - Right and wrong existed before recorded history. The boundaries of
what society has considered right and wrong have changed significantly
through the course of human existence. These changes are usually
backed up by a sacred text, and for the last couple thousand years
backed up by one sacred text, the christian bible and it’s many
versions and translations. Even though we have had one book to rely on
for such a long time societies moral compass has swung wildly even over
just the last 300 years. So this religiously motivated view of right
and wrong is based on interpretation by the masses and provides no
concrete instructions. I am an agnostic. I personally don’t believe
that god exists, but I was raised catholic and I do believe in the
teachings of Jesus Christ as they pertain to how we should treat each
other. Therefore humility is one of my core tenants and I cannot claim
to know the definitive answers to knowledge that is unknowable. I
could never claim that I’m right and everyone who doesn’t agree with me
is wrong. So there might be a god. If there is, and ever I have to
stand before god, and answer for my existence I cannot believe that an
all powerful, all knowing, all loving god who created me would punish
me for using the brain he gave me and simply being wrong. If god
exists I think he made us to take care of each other. If god doesn’t
exist , and there is nothing after death, then this life is all there
is and again the conclusion I come to is that we must take care of each
other. So, in my opinion, to build up our brothers and sisters is the
greatest act a human can aspire to. I do what is right because I
believe it is right. I avoid what is wrong because I believe it is
wrong. Weather or not there is a god or an afterlife I can neither
know nor change.
@brumbor - We know what is good because we have the law that was given to us by God. Obeying the authority placed over us (except in cases where they require us to cease worship of God) is Good. Therefore, he who blew up the abortion clinic has done wrong. The man who cheats on his taxes also does wrong. Jesus himself said give to Caesar what is Caesars! And as a side note, that man demonstrates an inability to trust God to help provide for his family. The man who steals from the construction site makes the same errors the man who cheated on his taxes did. It is written, “do not steal, and so dishonor the name of your God.” And as to the tree hugger… why is he stabbing the trees with nails? won’t that make them cry? But seriously though, unless the land is his, that person has no right to do so.
NO. All “goodness” comes from God anyway.
If you’re doing the right things because you believe in God, then you’re doing them because YOU believe they’re right. Not just because your pastor told you to do it.
Believing in God and believing God for yourself means you have discovered that there is more to life. Your decisions can now be made with Eternal perspective in mind. You have found a perfect example, Jesus Christ, to follow.
If you chose to act contrary to your beliefs, you’d be losing personal integrity.
I believe in God. And I live my life like I do.
@glossygraphicsgirl – “Here’s another question. If you don’t believe in God, then define ‘good’.”
You
should do good for the sake of mankind, the species symbiotic to our
own, and for the sake of the environments that support all of us, human
or not. This is common sense, since what’s good for the group or the
whole is what’s good for the self or the part.
I think the ad is
not meant to strip theists of their beliefs, but was rather implemented
in order to get through to nontheists who just aren’t receptive to
similar, but religiously saturated campaigns stuffed full of
propaganda-fluff in a way that attempts to claim ‘goodness’ on behalf
of theism and theists. Humanists want to get straight to the point.
@perelandra30 – “It is quite obvious there is a God: The
idea the there was a great explosion, and were suddenly all exist seems
just about as farfetched as an omnipotent being created us all.”
“Suddenly
all exist” is the worst way you could have described modern big bang
theory. We’ve been developing for billions of years if there’s any
truth behind it; there was no sudden about it.
@RdKingClassic03 – “If you don’t believe in God, how do you know what is good or bad?”
Don’t
patronize nontheists like this. Your assumption that they lack common
sense and cultural insight as to what’s socially acceptable and not is
insulting to nontheists and to whichever group you might identify with.
@nattata – “The result is what counts!”
This logic has the
potential to cause a great deal of harm. ‘The ends justify the means’
logic contributed to the development of atrocious behaviorial
psychological practices including lobotomies, which stripped thousands
of human beings of their birthright cognitive abilities. This was just
because the surgeons decided that ‘the result is what counts’ and that
if their patients stopped causing other people social discomfort after
their frontal lobes had been ripped apart, then that’s what really
mattered.
Likewise, is the everyday low price that your avatar
payed for her blue top that was made in bangladesh what really counts?
Or was it the fact that the factory it came out of forces minors to
work 14 hours a day, deprives them of decent working conditions or
necessary health benefits, and then pays them $0.25 an hour?
The end result is NOT what counts.
It’s paramount to teach people to first and foremost treat other human beings not with mere tolerance, but with full-blown respect.
This means it’s necessary to teach others that being a good person
comes first, and being a devout whatever-you-choose-to-be is second.
@JandJinJapan – “Actually, before one can truly “do good”, s/he must have God first…”
Please explain why you think this is true without referring back to some verse that just told you it is.
@huggin – “And fucking American Humanist Association: What a waste. They should use the money to feed the poor or something.”
Then
maybe churches had also better stop collections during their services
just so that they can pay an exorbitant air-conditioning bill. Or
maybe they should stop spending so much money on renting tour buses
just to go around on mission trips in order to convert everyone in
their path? At least they should if they continue to go around
submitting that ‘goodness’ itself depends on bending over to their
particular sect’s particular mystic beliefs.
I suppose the underlying extrapolation is that if someone “Is doing good because of God,” then their motivation to “NOT do bad” is a fear of God. Beneath that, the assumption (and not saying it’s “false” or “true”) that absent God, these people would “do bad.” If you look at it purely from that perspective, the Humanists have a point.
However, aren’t BOTH sides a reflection of “giving to get?”
“Doing good” is surely something you do for no other reason than it being “right action,” as opposed to for some real/perceived personal benefit, in return. I give five bucks to the starving man BECAUSE HE IS HUNGRY, not because I am looking for salvation, or looking to feel better about myself, or attach some kind of philanthropic “coolness” to myself.
If you are only good for praise, or to avoid punishment, then you’re not really being “good.” You’re avoiding punishment or courting reward.
And you don’t need religion to be good. People teach morals and their own personal mores. If people believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and teach that sharing is good, then whose fault is it that the four-year-old believes sharing is good? Because their parent taught them, because the parent believes in the Flying Spaghetti Monster’s teachings, or because “sharing is good”?
Well, I do believe in God and though it does cause me to want to do good things – I have also have a mind of my own and want to do good things for others, personally.
absolutely not, how can one argue against being good for any reason?
@goalsforjanuary - Of corse.
The answer to life, the universe and everything is 42.
Well,I have to say that I would not be good if it wasn’t for my God.
YES. I don’t believe in god. And I looove that sign.
@huginn - that’s because ‘finding god” gets them points with the parole board.
@Alex_Horschack - Why do you reply without using the reply-button? It’s not noticeable this way.
@nattata - It’s just because I’m a n00b. That’s all… Unfortuantely I figured it out after I had already originally posted this whole thing as a comment on someone else’s page :D
Thanks for looking out for me!
Those Christians, huginn, in prison, were either CINOS (Christians In Name Only) or became Christians later…
If ti were just my opinion, nimbusthedragon, I would have typed such. As it is, it isn’t just my opinion, but also God’s (see Isaiah 64.6, John 6.29)….
Not reaally..
@JandJinJapan - God did not write the Bible. Man did.
God wrote the Bible through men, nimbusthedragon - Please see 2nd Timothy 3.16-17 and 2nd Peter 1.20-21.
@JandJinJapan - I suppose we will have to accept a divergence of opinions here. Saying the Bible is written by God because it says so in the Bible is just a teensy bit redundant for me, and proves nothing. I respect your opinion, since I still contend that what you said is indeed that; an opinion and not fact, and I will leave it at that.
I’ll give you a “Thank you!” for your civility, nimbusthedragon - it is always best to end a conversation on a friendly note, and though we disagree, perhaps in the future there will be opportunity for deeper dialogue. Blessings to you today.
i don’t like this ad. obviously they don’t believe in god~
who says that ppl believe in god ONLY do good cuz they believe in god?
what a horrible message.
@JandJinJapan - Likewise.
If people are doing good, then it’s good. Whose business is it what their motive is? I seriously doubt many Christians do good simply because they fear God. I think most people in general do good because it makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
That ad campaign is disturbing. I’m sure they have something better to do with the money they are spending on it.
yeah