December 30, 2008
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Freezing to Death
A man is being charged with second-degree murder of his 11-year-old daughter.
His truck broke down on Christmas Day and while he was trying to fix it, he let his 12-year-old son and 11-year-old daughter walk 10 miles. The temperature was said to be between 27 degrees above zero to minus 5 degrees. His daughter died of hypothermia on the walk. Here is the link: Link
Do you think the father should be charged with second-degree murder?
Comments (93)
i think they would get hypothermia even if they stayed with their father…
That seems extreme. Maybe criminal negligence.
I honestly don’t think their father would have let them walk if he thought there were going to be serious risks. He may have been too distracted with his broken down truck to realize how cold it actually was. If anything, I think he should be charge with endangering the welfare of a child; not second-degree murder.
Yeah, I’m with saintvi, negligence would have been appropriate but wouldn’t they have froze to death sitting inside that truck, too? It would have probably been colder inside the truck (ever noticed how it’s colder inside your car after it’s been sitting there than it is outside in the winter?) very, very tragic.
After reading the article, thats a tough call. I think he should be punished I guess, but it seems the loss or his daughter will be quite a bit of punishment. It was very stupid of him to send his kids to walk that far with those temps at that young of an age. Why don’t adults THINK before doing stuff like this? When he got the truck unstuck, why in the WORLD would you not go at least make sure the kids were ok and made it to the house. It was bad enough he sent them out in the weather,but not even go check on them. The guy HAD to be on crack or something.He does need some jail time, several years probably, but life, thats kinda crazy for making a mistake even though it was a stupid one
I would imagine losing his daughter is more punishment to him than prison could ever be. I’d say he’d give his life for his daughter. He definitely didn’t have their best interest in mind when they went hiking off in the snow BUT it’s hard to judge his thoughts on this one.
Definitely tragic. After read the article, I’m torn. I don’t get letting the kids walk- did he realize it was 10 miles? Or did he think they were closer then that? It definitely seems like he didn’t realize it, but logic would tell you not to send your kids out in that kind of weather. I agree with the negligent death.
I don’t get how 2 different women in my city, in less then a year, can both leave their under 2 year olds in their car to suffocate and burn to death in the middle of the summer, and NOT be charged with anything- not even child endangerment!- and yet they want to charge this man with second degree murder?
I definitely think he should be punished, but second-degree murder seems to harsh.
@bethechangeyouwish2see - I remember reading articles about these women. It’ crazy that they got away without any form of punishment.
considereing he drove back to his own house after the truck was fixedinstead of checking up on the kids, or pick them up while walking to their mother’s house — he’s definately guilty of something.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think murder needs to prove an element of intent. It doesn’t sound like there was any intent here to murder them. I think he just made a stupid mistake. Involuntary Manslaughter maybe.
It seems like a very bad move on his part, thinking that the children could survive in that weather. I think her death is a punishment itself, but I’m not sure how you would punish this guy further..jail time? If they cuddled together in the car to warm each other up, away from the snow and wind, she might have survive.
it wasn’t intentional, he just didn’t use his common sense
@UnworthyofHisgrace - you’re right
@vangelicmonk - agreed
@UnworthyofHisgrace - You are right,I wonder if he was under the influence of anything,WHAT PERSON IN THEIR RIGHT MIND would send their kids out to walk 10 miles in knee deep snow and freezing wind ,especially when they were only stuck in a snowbank? And why would he not go look for them?
he’s fucking dumb. I don’t know about murder, but maybe child negligence.
Too bad you can’t send someone to jail for being a jackass. The kids were not even clothed properly for that kind of weather. He didn’t call the mother to tell them they were coming and he drove home after the truck was fixed. Sounds to me like he really didn’t care if they got there or not. Not to mention that I do not know very many children under 15 that can walk 10 miles on a normal day, let alone in knee high snow.
In my opinion he maybe shouldn’t get second degree murder but he should get involutary manslaughter and lose all rights as a parent. It was flat out complete neglegience on his part. Any one wth half a brain would have known that idea was suicide.
negligence, not murder. he didn’t intend for them to die, and his actions were not done with malice.
Idk. I would ask the son.
I don’t think that this should be murder. Murder implies that there was intent. If there was intent of killing his girl, he would have just shoved her into the snow bank.
Neglience though may be charged. I dont think the father was aware that he was that far away from his ex-wifes home. However, I think that losing his daughter to his own stupidity is enough of a punishment.
@cre13 - Not necessarily. After all the car was stuck, not broken down. Chances are they still had heat inside the truck and with the combined body heat in side such a small space it would have been better than outside. The fact that someone found them on the road is a good indicator that help would have eventually found them.
@sarahb_86 - Well it’s one of those things where you just never know. I wouldn’t have let my children walk down the road without me (cold or not). It’s a tragic situation; I just don’t think he’s guilty of 2nd degree murder.
@sarahb_86 - oh, and Dan said it was broken down, not stuck … so it’s possible the heat didn’t work.
I’ve driven that road a number of times and in snow it is easy to misjudge exactly where you might be. He might have believed the walk to be closer than it was. The mother of those kids is right when she says he is going through his own Hell right now. Murder charges seem to be an over-response to what happened.
this iz alredy tragik enuf stay in the truk & freeze or go fora walk & freeze @least with walking ther wuzza chance of keeping warm i dont think he shud be charged with any sort of murder terrible thingz happin all the tyme if we really wanna charge someone with murder why not charge george bush & dick cheney now thoze two actually do have blud on ther handz this guy iz justa hapless sob & i rekon the cops hav way too much tyme on ther handz & probably a little of racism too
@relaxolgy - agreed!
@cre13 - Ah, in the article it said it was just stuck. That’s why I said that.
Only if he forced them to walk and get help, if they volunteered, then no. However, the father should’ve made the better decision of having his kids stay if it was that cold.
the daughter may have died faster if she stayed with the father. walking warms you up somewhat.
i think this case should be thrown out. unless of course theres evidence found that the truck wasnt REALLY broken, and the evil dad was just faking it
certainly negligence. how tragic.
yeah thats way too extreme. it’s not his intention right.
so tragic…
for one… an 11 and 12 year old should not be by themself… isn’t that negligence in itself?I mean… there were 2 adult behind… one of them could have gone to follow the kids at least. @kwokstephanie1992 - they probably would have had a better chance at life had they stayed… afterall she was found under the snow.. i’m sure she would have been warmer in her dad’s arms-adieu, stace
well, the poor father, for one thing.
it’s not like he did it intensionally. but he probably was too busy to even think twice about sending the kids off.
walking was probably better than standing around though, because they’d be moving.
if any punishment, i think minimal.
but i’m pretty simpathetic, so don’t listen to me
;D
reading the article, that man is a terrible person. telling his young children to walk 10 miles to their mother’s house, and then fixing his car and driving home? not even calling their mother? not walking with them?
they’re just children, you should never put your children in that situation.
He probably didn’t know the temperature; honestly, when you’re outside, can you accurately say, “Oh, it’s 60 degrees right now”? Not me. I usually say “It has to be like 5 degrees!” and it turns out to be 50. O.o Plus, if he was near his car, it was probably still warm and that skewed his judgment of how cold it actually was.
And what if he couldn’t fix the truck? Wouldn’t leaving them in the truck be just as bad as letting them walk for help, especially since there were two of them together and only one of him?
I don’t think this is enough to justify second degree murder…. rather, negligence, maybe, although I think he was in a tight situation and couldn’t really do much about it.
that makes absolutely no sense at all.. like someone above said, they probably wouldve died anyway had they stayed with the father.
He made a bad call and has been punished for it already. Let him be. We need to spend our time and money bailing out car companies and their CEOs!!
That’s a tough one. Clearly he should be charged with something… murder seems a little bit exreme though.
Yes.
Depends. Were there blankets in the truck? Was it windy outside?
I know that being in the snow gives you cold wet feet really quick!
im not sure what to think.
I cannot understand why he would not have gone to check on the kids. Obviously, that is irresponsible. Negligent, yes. Stupid, yes. Deserving of life in prison, I doubt it.
I find it truly amazing that he simply drove home after getting his vehicle unstuck! Maybe the folks I know are the exception rather than the rule, but I don’t know one parent who I think would let the kids walk, let alone not go to check on them. Truly amazing how much some people do not think things through.
Sad for the family.
It is a terribly foolish thing to allow your children to walk out in those harsh conditions unaccompanied. Should the father have walked with them, I don’t suppose he would be in this mess. It just seems to pertain to parental responsibility. Truly, their chances of freezing were just as great, if not greater, if they stayed at the vehicle (at least momentum gave them some body heat). I concur with the postulate of child negligence, but second degree murder seems a bit over the top.
I’m not sure if he should be punished for stupidity. I think the loss of his daughter is punishment enough.
Hasn’t he ever heard of watching Les Stroud on Survivorman? Never sacrifice your shelter in these conditions.
This is a sad story.
But I don’t think the father should be charged with second-degree murder.
Second degree is too much. As one said, she would have died if she stayed.
No. It wasn’t smart or kind, but we all make mistakes.
Hmm. Not murder, maybe neglect? I didnt read the artice so idk if it stated what the kids were wearing. Proper clothes one can hope but people are pretty dumb these days. How did he rationalize with himself that it was okay for his two children to be walking 10+ miles in the freezing cold?
no not to that extremity
he should be charged with negligence or a form of manslaughter. second degree murder is harsh. it’s not as if he swung at her with an axe or just sent her and not his son.
If you’re stranded and broken down somewhere, I can see the idea of walking to safety/shelter.. But no, I don’t think he should be charged with second degree murder. It wasn’t intentional and he probably had no idea how dangerous it was.
Another one of these cases where kids froze to death
Cause the dad was careless
Charge him with child negligence like everyone said
i think that’s a little extreme.
No.
no, he shouldn’t be charged with murder.
A murder rap is too harsh on the guy… this is a tragedy though for that family.
I think he meant well (for the children to get to their Mother’s home), but he obviously wasn’t thinking right when he let them walk.
Poor guy. I don’t think he should be charged with murder, though.
@History_Nut - I agree, although I haven’t been on that road.
Hi : )
Neglect, but not murder.
Have a great day : )
xxx
no. bad judgement yes. second-degree murder no.
yes
I definitely don’t think murder should be the punishment. It’s not his fault. If they would’ve stayed in the car they could’ve died as well. It’s just a very sad tragedy and to accuse him of murder is horrible. He’s already going through the deaths of his kids. He already feels it’s his fault. I feel so bad for him.
well dude is a dumbfuck, but i dont think he should be convicted of murder.
for sure, as a former social-worker and not that it matters that much but currently in my 3rd yr of forensic-anthropology..it’s neglet and neglet is worse than abuse and because of his neglect a mother lost her child, a brother lost his sister, grandparents, young friends possible first experience with losing someone they really know and love..and for what so he could try and fix his truck instead of doing body warmth…..or anything…the 12yr old wasn’t old enough to regocnize signs of his sister-s demise. i hope he’s charged, convicted, persecuted and maybe noe day, forgiven by Jesus.
Soulstar76
i would say no, just from what i read in your post. but i would have to know a little more to say more confidantly.
there may not be intent, but there definitely was negligence. either that the father was not playing with the full deck.
No! That’s crazy. She could have died if she would have stayed too! That is crazy!
I don’t think murder is the correct charge, as there doesn’t appear to be intent to kill the girl. He certainly showed a great lack of judgment, both in having them walk and also in not checking to see if they got there.
Negatory.
It seems that it was unintentional. Unfortunately, this man was too unaware of the dangers of cold weather. Negligence might be a better sentence.
No. I highly doubt he wanted her to die.
no
maybe
Stories like this tick me off. Throw the book at the bad parent.
No…he didn’t know how long they’d be stranded there, and it’s better than letting them die in the car. He was trying for them to get HELP.
It wasn’t intentional. I don’t think he sent his son & daughter out in the hopes they would collapse from hypothermia. I do think he should be punished for child abuse or something because you shouldn’t send your kids out, especially that young of an age, to fend for themselves and then not let anyone know. Just knowing he went back home instead of driving to the mother’s house to make sure they made it safe. Some adults just don’t think and think that 11-year-olds should be mini adults.
I do not think it should be 2nd degree murder. Nahh, that is a bit harsh. He does seem a bit distraught by the fact that he just lost his daughter and almost his son.
I think this is a case with one extremely good lawyer and one extremely bad lawyer…
as with all of this stuff, we don’t know the whole story unless we were there or in court. Opinions based on anything else is pure speculation (i.e., B.S.)!
Am I the only person wondering what kind of fuckbucket lets pre-teen kids walk 10 MILES by themselves REGARDLESS of weather conditions???? I mean REALLY? Am I missing something, here?
I can’t help but wonder why he didn’t go pick up his kids after he and his buddy got the vehicle unstuck. Surely, he didn’t think they’d made it 10 miles in the time it took them to get it free? The little girl was only wearing pajama pants. You’d think he’d a least check. Hindsight is 20/20 though, and I’m sure his hindsight picture is clearest of them all.
If you read the article, you should say yes he’s guilty.
Maybe accidental homicide would be more fitting, but the man definitely should be charged. What kind of idiot tells their children to walk 10 miles in knee deep snow, in freezing temperatures, & thinks that will be Ok? Not only that, but when he gets his truck unstuck, he goes home & doesn’t bother checking to see if his children made it to there destination…. That lost time may have been enough to have saved the girl had he bothered to check on them. I haven’t read anything to the effect, but my guess is the man was drunk.
yes to racism. They seem Indian. Wish they had the gumption of our Seminole. Separate Nation status, the Tribe would decide. Yes he was a fool. But eleven is not a baby – she probably had some sense. And the dad probably expected to be able to move the truck soon – no phone call? strange. And what happened with the truck? Did they get it moving, and NOT check on the kids?
Another example of immaturity; the parents had problems,were not together. He probably didn’t want to see their mom. This could have caused the gap in being a PARENT to those kids. Murder? Pre meditated? negect, with homicide maybe.
But more and more tragedy does not seem healing to me.
The man acted in a highly negligent way. The little girl lacked proper clothing. The means to survive existed with the truck. He did not even bother to pick up the children when he got the truck unstuck. He is accountable. My sister lives in Idaho Falls. She has an eleven-year-old son. I lived in Oregon near places where people died from exposure. One has to take proper care. He killed his daughter. This is an area where people have to understand cold weather. What was he thinking?
I personally feel that negligent homicide would be a more appropriate punishment in this case. The girl’s father acted irresponsibly, and he should be held accountable for the consequences of these actions. But the man did not appear to intentionally wish to harm either of his children. In the article, the mother is quite frank in stating that the father is suffering his own hell b/c of what happened. It was a hard lesson as it was. Why make it worse by laying extra guilt upon the man where it is unfounded?
for people saying the father isn’t guilty at all because the girl could have died had she stayed in/by the truck….ARE YOU SERIOUS? the children being inside their dad’s truck IN THEIR DAD’S VICINITY is completelyyy different from going on a 10 mile walk! 11 and 12 years old isn’t old at all! i’m 16, and my brother is 13, and if this happened to one of my parents they would never just send me off for a 10 mile walk out of their sight in that weather; it’s BAD PARENTING. when the truck was fixed, he went home…what does that tell you?! he definitely should have driven in the direction of the kids, not just let them continue a 10 mile walk that they shouldn’t have had to go on in the first place!! being a parent is a responsibility and it angers me when parents are irresponsible like this. second-degree murder may be too extreme of a charge, but there’s one thing this man deserves, and it’s to feel EXTREMELY guilty for showing care (or lack thereof) to his children
No, it was negligent and irresponsible but I think murder is too strong a charge even if he didn’t intend to kill her.
No, what the Dad did stupid. Poor judgment call but not a murder.
Ah, the power of the press. The initial story I read on CNN.com regarding this incident (which I cannot find now) painted the situation in a much different light. According to that article, the mother and father were supposed to meet at a halfway point to exchange the children. The other adult involved was interviewed and insisted the father did not want the children to make the walk, but didn’t prevent them from doing it. It also failed to mention that the father and other adult got the truck running and abandoned the children. In fact, it said that the two men looked for the children by following their footsteps in “ruts” (tire tracks on the road) until they no longer could due to drifting snow. It’s interesting how differently the story is presented by different sources.
Do I believe the man should face charges? Certainly. He was negligent in caring for and protecting his children. He should have known better than to allow two young children, in this day, to walk anywhere unattended along the side of a road, regardless of temperature. Do I believe that he intended them any harm or that his negligence carried any malice? No. He made an extremely poor judgment call. Compare this to the scores of parents who leave their children locked inside cars and go uncharged. It is a tremendous loss. Does the murder charge negate the effects? No. Does he need to answer for his lack of judgment? Yes. Appropriate charges of negligence and child endangerment should be applied.
No,it wasn’t on purpose,it was just stupid!
As to whether or not he should be charged with murder… that’s a tough one. Certainly, his decision was idiotic beyond words. TEN MILES? IN A BLIZZARD?? He virtually condemned those children to death. He should have used anything around him to build a windbreak and a fire to keep those children warm.
@TedMichaelMorgan - Of course, the people of the United States are less than 5 percent of the population for the world, but we have a quarter of the prison population. Prison might not be necessary, but the father killed his child. He lived in Idaho, he has to know how dangerous the cold is.
@saintvi - I concur-
@Automaton_Emotion - oo i love how elaborate and thorough your reply is!
even though it was a bad call, he didnt have intent to murder.