February 21, 2009
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Obama Or Jesus?
A recent poll was taken of 2,634 Americans of “who they admire enough to call a hero. Obama received more votes than Jesus. Here is the link: Link
Who is more of a hero to you, Jesus or Obama?
A recent poll was taken of 2,634 Americans of “who they admire enough to call a hero. Obama received more votes than Jesus. Here is the link: Link
Who is more of a hero to you, Jesus or Obama?
Comments (330)
Jesus of course. Obama is a joke that I laugh very hard at.
Jesus.
Obama hasn’t done anything really yet.
And Jesus isn’t that special to me.
Buddha is my hero =]
Obama. At least he’s not just a story.
@one_eared_batman - I’m sure he laughs at you too =D
@one_eared_batman - I’d hug you if I my computer allowed me to do that. I agree with you completely.
Jesus.
What exactly has Obama done that is heroic? Admirable to some, maybe…but heroic!?
I dont remember obama doing anything…… yet
Big oh.
@misswonderj - I don’t think he knows me. :]
obama, of course. he faced adversity, naysayers, and everything that shows that his accomplishment is truly amazing. and what he will do while he is president will be more amazing still.
jesus isn’t a hero. what did he do?
uh WOW.
Jesus
Why do we get these morons who say that Jesus is just a story? Obama seems like a bad dream.
Neither has done anything for me so far.
@one_eared_batman - Just like you don’t know him =D
@soccerdadforlife - Why do we get these morons who say that Jesus is just a story?
Muhammad is just a story.
Santa Claus is just a story.
jesus
@one_eared_batman - <<he is! XD
No really.. Jesus is my hero! Heroes save people.. not make them move the Wal*Mart bookshelf to make it so all the Obama magazine covers are turned around or covered up by Shonen Jump! XP
Obama is ok in some ways but in no way is he heroic to me..
If someone had asked me whom I admire enough to call a hero, I might have answered with Obama too.
Jesus.
Obama.
@one_eared_batman - ”Jesus of course. Obama is a joke that I laugh very hard at.”
Your sour grapes must have fermented to laughing gas.
Laugh on.
OJesus! Obama’s head’s aglowin!
@one_eared_batman - We have more of an understanding of the thinking, character, and intents of President Obama than we do a supposed character of Biblical past.
Obama hasnt done anything heroic, well to america but jesus is everywhere, he touches the world
Obama clearly hasn’t done anything of importance yet, and I don’t see it happening anytime soon either.
He’s not the savior like everyone obviously thinks he is.
but I say Neither.
Heroism is for the weak.
@misswonderj - @one_eared_batman - ”Have No Opinion? – John Reuben”
@lauraiswhoibeee - Jesus has been negligent of his sheep in the middle east.
In fact, he’s ignored the entire swath of humanity in the Eastern Hemisphere.
Satan.
@WoundedScapegoat - *gags*
im rather..atheist. but i’d have to say jesus is more of a hero to the people than obama will ever be…(i think that contradicts some kinda logic but whatever)
@jennybombdotcom - i dont wanna sound stupid, but i didnt understand your answer really well.
they worship him anyways.
Jesus of course.
Neither.
@jennybombdotcom - Heroism is for the weak.
Nihilism is for the spiritless.
@misswonderj - Shut up yourself, you ignorant fool. People who make ridiculous statements with no support need to be called out. Idiots like you who support them also need to be called out. If you discuss them intelligently, with support, even ostensibly offensive statements are Ok. Mindless, unsupported, ridiculous, offensive statements will be trashed and their owners will be exposed to public ridicule. Too bad we can’t tar and feather the ignoramuses who make those statements.
All opinions are NOT created equal.
Why is Obama like a bad dream? He was elected president without any executive experience at all. He was never a mayor, county exec, governor, CEO, etc. Palin is infinitely more qualified to be president.
@femaleBASSPLAYER - ;)
@soccerdadforlife - And that is a scary thought.
I’m an atheist, sooooo…my answer is obvious.
Obama.
@hellaz - Point taken.
Well, hero isn’t really the right word for either one. Jesus is the Savior of the world and did more to change history than any other God-man. Obama is the current president. He hasn’t done anything “heroic.” I don’t think that he’s even done anything helpful, yet.
I’m conflicted, because neither of them have done anything that I’d consider heroic. One started a religion that has caused the death of millions, the other just got elected president because his opponent was John McCain. Seriously, ANYONE could have won that one.
Jesus. No contest.
haha. I couldn’t really say, but I am pretty sure Jesus was not that pale and his hair probably wasn’t auburn. Irish Jesus ftw?
Jesus.
The voting outcome is down to the non-Christian population.
@DrugInducedDuck - True, though the religion Obama started hasn’t had the chance to kill millions yet. Give it time.
@soccerdadforlife - So let me get this straight, she disagrees with your views and you call her an ignorant fool and an idiot? Wow, go get the sand out of your vagina, take the crucifix out of your ass and chill out. Guess what, we all disagree. Personally, I don’t find either heroic. A President is not a heroic figure. Neither are story characters. So what, you gonna try and hurt my feelings now? Guess what? You can’t. Wanna know why? Because each little angry rant you make in protecting Jesus shows everyone else exactly what kind of Christian you are. Not one they want to be like. So please, rip away, turn a few more people away from Christ…
Douchenozzle
Seems kind of odd to call your god a hero.
@DrugInducedDuck - I should have run damn it. I could have been President. And let me tell you, there would have been a lot of crying and whining from Christians then.
Buddha!
@randomneuralfirings - See, that’s where you are wrong. President Obama didn’t start anything. The press has built this image of him up without him doing anything to help. I voted for him but the cult of personality around him is creepy. And yet, he has done nothing to promote it. Honestly, it reminds me the most of the cult of personality around JFK.
And it would take a lot of work for the current President to outdo the numbers killed by Christians. Just pointing out.
Between Jesus and Obama, I’d say Obama.
Obama, only because I’m not christian. and religion has coused the deaths of more than I care to count.
but seriously, this idolizing of him needs to stop.
@bosefius - You’re just as stupid as soccerdadforlife.
it scares me how much ppl love obama…
@soccerdadforlife - You’re a dumb fuck. You’ve been dismissed for your inability to argue and your tantrums comparable to those of a five year old. =]
Seriously, Dan?
Obama will bow the knee to Jesus…if not now, then later at his judgement.
@bosefius - Good point.
obama
@NightCometh - How do you know that =]
@xNicolax - I want to give you a hug just for that. I totally concur.
@randomneuralfirings - I’ll be honest, I’m expecting one of two extremes with Obama, and nothing in between. Either he does absolutely nothing, or he kills all of us. One of those, though, I’m certain of it.
Obama, since jesus simply modified the ideals of the east.
@bosefius - Wait, didn’t you just attack someone for getting overly defensive about their messiah?
@lauraiswhoibeee - i know they do, but they shouldn’t because he’s probably not gonna be the one who saves us.
@huginn - ok, and like i’m the only one who doesn’t believe.
Jesus. This is scary how so many people worship Obama like Jesus. And to someone up there who said Jesus was just a story…he actually lived. Even my Jewish and Athiest friends know he lived. They just don’t believe the religious part.
Jesus. I seriously doubt that Obama would ever die to save others.
Obama is not my hero, he’s my president by default. He’s done nothing heroic by definition as of yet, so it’ll be up to History to say. Hopefully it won’t be the same history that tries to classify Jesus and Churchill as mythical figures.
Jesus
The one holding the lamb.
@PenaltyLife - he’s died for you to receive all of your sin or else there wouldnt be no heaven only hell. How can you even say obama? obama hasnt done anything and hes a human being like you and me
@Nowornever2009 - Jesus was human..
Obama hasn’t been president long enough.
im not hatin’ on obama, but all hes doin is trying to stimulate the economy, not the second coming of jesus
@bosefius - LOL @ douchenozzle. XD
@femaleBASSPLAYER - he passed as a human on earth yes he was. whats your question?
Jesus.
@Nowornever2009 - How can you preach Christianity when your profile pic has you half naked? Hypocrite.
And news flash, not everyone believes the same things you do.
@lauraiswhoibeee - Shouldn’t you wait then until Jesus “comes back” to say he’s a hero?
@bosefius - Wow, I could call you turd-brain, but that would be disrespecting turds everywhere. Or I could call you a dumb cunt, but that would be disrespecting dumb cunts like wonderj who think with their uterus (as opposed to delightful, mentally-attractive women who can make intelligent arguments).
Go to hell if you like. It’s totally up to you. I’m against forced conversions. We’re all about freedom here.
Obviously you are illiterate and lack the ability to discern between arguing apologetics and calling someone out for making unsupported offensive statements.
At least you’re minimally entertaining. I’ll give you that.
What has Obama done that makes him so much better than Jesus?
@xNicolax - Jesus isn’t a story. There is actual proof of his existence.
Jesus…FTW
@soccerdadforlife - Zip it.. please.. you’re killing me here..
If you are a believer..learn how to properly communicate it..
If people all around the world are still talking about Obama 2,000 years after his death it might be time to start the discussion of who is a more significant figure. Jesus was radically different for his time and established a devoted following through his teachings. Obama seems like just another Democrat with typical Democrat ideas and inspires mostly other Democrats who already accept those ideas. I hope Obama will be a good president, but asking him to compete with Christ is rather unfair to him IMO.
@DJ__x - Then prove it dear.
Jesus.
Obama is a joke.
Jesus
@Nowornever2009 - i don’t believe in the bible, i don’t believe in god, i don’t believe in heaven or hell.
my question was honest; what has jesus done? what can you tell me that he’s done that has nothing to do with religion, because i don’t believe in religion.
jesus, like you and me, was a human.
also, how can a hero not be human? i don’t get it. haha
@DJ__x - there is! i just did an opinion paper in school about religion in schools, and some of my evidence was bible sotires being proved, ex: noahs ark, jesuses tomb
and quit telling me shit about jesus, or whatever
because i can believe in what i want
@femaleBASSPLAYER - There is a time and place for everything–even my type of communication here (which I do very infrequently). Even the Lord shows Himself crooked to the wicked. So, you do your thing your way and don’t get in my way.
Jesus DUH!!!
Jesus saved my soul, Obama… is the President. I don’t see how you can compare the two.
@PenaltyLife - You say that you don’t believe in the Bible. Does that mean that you don’t believe in the Golden Rule? Does that mean that you don’t believe that Jesus existed? What do you mean?
I liked your point about how Jesus had to be human if he is someone’s hero. (Of course, that doesn’t necessarily prove anything about whether he is God.)
Obama. Unless you’re using “hero” in the fictional sense. Even then, I don’t think I’d class Jesus as a hero. The planet’s been a mess for the past 2000 years because of him.
Jesus. End of story.
@soccerdadforlife - What is the “golden rule”? treat others how you would like to be treated? that has nothing to do with the bible. hahaha
jesus existed because there is historical proof of his existence. what he did in his lifetime, according to christians, is what i don’t believe.
your question about what my comment meant: was that about the question of what jesus has done? it has to do with the question in the original post.
-if- jesus is a hero, he had to have done something. my question is; what has he done? i mean literally, in his lifetime, what did he achieve to make himself such a hero?
i guess the answer, after actually thinking about it, is quite obvious. he changed countless people’s lives. i suppose that’s a heroic quality (if you’d classify those changes as positive), but to me it means nothing. he did nothing to change my life, and therefore he’s done nothing for me.
to me, obama is more of a hero than jesus.
Jesus.
Um, Jesus, fo’sho’.
@PenaltyLife - Jesus stated the Golden Rule, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” That is found in the Bible.
What did you mean by “jesus existed because there is historical proof of his existence”? What historical proof?
What was it that Jesus did during his lifetime that you don’t believe?
Why is Obama a hero to you? What has he done to change your life (for the better, I assume)?
@xNicolax -
http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_history.html
Seems to back up the evidence quite well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
People say wikipedia is unreliable information. If you doubt any of it, continue researching if you please.
@soccerdadforlife - I don’t believe in the Bible. The “Golden Rule” is common sense, anybody with any means of loving and caring for other beings would know this rule, Jesus or no.
The proof that he existed. Open a history text book. Or how about they found his bones? Did DNA tests? And btw, at the time of his death, they did have written records. Jesus existed.
He didn’t die then magically come back to life, he didn’t heal somebody’s blindness. He didn’t do anything magical or special, other than maybe just being a nice person.
Obama gave me hope that people who are downtrodden, people who are discriminated against, people who have lost hope, have a chance. He made me see that America is losing it’s racist ways, that we have come a long way in such a short amount of time. It’s exciting to me that a minority is in the White House. I am also excited to have a competent leader, someone who is excited and willing to try his hardest to fix our country, because it needs a lot of fixing.
And also because another Republican in the White House would have killed my soul.
who has obama helped save from the firey pits of hell?
neither.
Jesus.
Those stats are really disappointing.
Jesus is my main man!
A hero? Neither really I guess…I think Jesus was a cooler guy than Obama. C’mon, Jesus could turn water into wine and raise people from the dead!
@randomneuralfirings - Honestly, I’m not defensive of the President and he’s not my Messiah. I think he brings hope, but after the last 8 years who wouldn’t. I guess I was (poorly, now that I re-read) the similarities between this cult (and there is one to an extent) around the President and what was around JFK. Neither built themselves up, both were done by the public and the media. If anything, the cult of the President is much like any other fanhood. I ignore it. Sorry, if I seemed defensive, I wasn’t trying to be (nothing to defend in my opinion).
And I didn’t take exception to the other person defending their Messiah, I took offense to the blatant attacks and assumptions.
@kike2 - AH, to know me is to love me though
@soccerdadforlife -
A) there is no hell so can’t go (though your opinion obviously differs)
B) you caught me, I’m illiterate and a turd brain. You are completely correct. Because anyone that disagrees with you and calls you out must be.
C) Have fun, you bore me.
Jesus, God the Son came to earth, lived a perfect life, died a death he didn’t deserve, and didn’t stay dead but rose again on the third day after being killed on a cross, went to heaven to prepare a place for the people who choose to love him back.
Greater love has no man than to lay down his life for another. He did that for me before I was even a twinkle in my Daddy’s eye!!
Psh, Obama’s anyones hero because he’s black, don’t lie =)
If he were a democratic white person, would he still be a hero to you~?
However, whether Jesus was Asian or Black, those who believe in him can careless, he was awesome<3
Obama.
…I wonder if that lamb has a name.
JESUS! Duh.
@bosefius - I don’t think I could even pretend offense if somebody called me a turd brain. I’m pretty sure I’d be too busy laughing.
@soccerdadforlife - Its not my fault you’re an idiot without any knowledge of politics. =] I think its sad someone actually was drugged up enough that they would breed with you. Pity.
And I have no opinion on it whatsoever. I think the people who are getting so worked up over it need to take a chill pill. I mean is the fact that somebody picked Jesus or Obama really going to rock your world?
I didn’t think so.
@DJ__x - How could we trust a site that can’t even SPELL divine? >_>
@I_Am_Twilight - it should..
Jesus is my hero.He died for us!
Uhhh, if I HAD to choose between the two, then Obama. I’m more likely to say “neither,” though.
@raindrop_inthesky - I’d like to know why.
Jesus.
Who do you think is responsible for the life of Obama? It’s not his security guards.
@soccerdadforlife - How can you possibly say that Palin of all people would make a better president then Obama. Obama has re-directed funds into science (stem cell research, NASA, energy efficiency, global warming), where Palin would have butted into private family matters such as abortion in the name of her god.
If nothing else, Obama is my hero just for giving science it’s rightful place back, instead of depending upon constant wishful prayer.
The “kool-aid drinkers” think Obama IS Jesus.
@bosefius - Maybe you should have run. You can’t possibly do any worse than what we’ve had in the past or currently have now. I’m a Christian and I’d vote for you before I’d vote for BO. From what I’ve read, at least you’re upfront and honest about what you think/believe…doesn’t mean I agree with you, but that’s another story.
I’ll take an honest atheist over a some guy that lies about being a Christian any day.
Neither.
Jesus. Hands up. And I’m not even religious.
I can’t even answer that…the two aren’t comparable…at all. God of the Universe that saved me vs. a president of a country of a tiny part of that universe… wow.
@I_Am_Twilight - It’s not that they chose who they chose, it’s that they added snarky comments right after it. haha
@Picture_Perfect_Chaos - That’s what irriates me, lol. Maybe I didn’t make it clear enough.
they both haven’t done shit for me.
@BeKa28 - I totally agree with you. It’s like comparing apples and artichokes.
@PenaltyLife - So why should you believe a history text? Many have been found to contain plenty of errors. They’re just analysis anyway, not primary sources. What bones? What DNA tests? What written records are you talking about?
How do you know that Jesus didn’t come back to life?
Why do you think that Obama is competent? I’ve already pointed out his lack of executive experience. His legislative record is also very uninspiring. He can give a sermon. His political speeches are essentially just sermons.
Jesus
@Picture_Perfect_Chaos - Palin has experience as an executive. Obama has no experience as an executive. You prefer the person with no experience. I’m impressed.
@xNicolax - If Jesus is just a story… I’m utterly wasting my life along with hundreds of thousands of others… and hundreds of thousands of good people have died for no reason… that’s really sad.
@Ancient_Scribe - It’s extremely sad. In no way am I denying that.
Jesus. We know much about Jesus’ intent and actions, history is written down in books too, and soon enough Obama will just be history like Jesus, except jesus in his story represents so much more than obama can ever possibly hope to, and I’m sure obama would say the same thing. Jesus represents something we can all model ourselves after, and whether he is real or not, his story is more than obama’s ever will be.
Now the question is: Do you think this gives Obama the right to pull a Lennon? Can he say he’s bigger than Jesus and get away with it?
@xNicolax - You really don’t believe, then, that Jesus is more than a story? You don’t believe he really existed?
Until Obama sacrifices and dies for the world, he cannot be compared to Jesus. Jesus’ lifetime is devoted to the purpose.
Jesus!! Even if you don’t believe he was divine, his teachings of peace, love, and service have influenced people for 2000 years.
Jesus
batman & spiderman i can never decide between the two
Jesus of course. What has Obama done that’s really heroic?
Iron Man is my only hero.
><
@pansybradshaw - Pick Batman. He has more sex.
@misswonderj - You’re all about sex and drugs, aren’t you? Pity your mind has been destroyed.
@storiesandsinker - i kno i kno but spiderman iz SO cute & myte i ad brooding
Obama has done alot but its all…admirable i guess?!
but Jesus is my hero
wayyyyyy before obama
probably not alot of christians voting on that poll…
@PenaltyLife - From your comments it is apparent that you have never read about the life and work of Jesus. Instead of relying on religious people for your perspective of him, I suggest you read from what is commonly refered to as the ‘Gospels’ (or the the books “Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John” compliled in the “New Testament” part of the Bible) and read of his accomplishments that have inspired millions in the past 2,000 years first hand. Bibles are readily available if you live in America, even online: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=1&version=31 Read the ‘Gospels’ and if you are still clueless about the accomplishments of Jesus… I can’t help you.
@soccerdadforlife - …Uhh no. I’m just anti stupid. =D
You should really uhh you know, THINK before pressing reply.
But I know that’s a stretch for you… =]
I think Obama would call Jesus his hero
obama, i’m actually wearing my obama shirt right now… but mainly its because i wasnt a fan of jesus even before i’d ever first heard of barack obama
Neither, they are both deceitful liars and frauds. One conveys false promises for the living, while the other conveys false promises for the deceased.
Neither?
@kylemorrisonlovely - Nice answer. <3
Even if I didn’t believe he was the son of God, Jesus would still be more of a hero to me. Like Gandhi and Mother T are. I like people who aren’t violent and who care for the poor. But I like Obama a lot as well.
I can understand why many people would say Obama, because he is alive and tangible, and it takes a bit more effort to feel Jesus’ presence and be able to look up to him. I would not say Obama is a hero as much as Jesus is, if a hero at all. Though, I can see why people would see him as a role model for sure. Personally, my “hero” is Dr. Ben Carson. I read his autobiography in 5th grade and have looked up to him ever since.
@Kiwigummy - Good point!
@misswonderj - There are certain things I look for as indications of intelligence. Does someone ask insightful or at least interesting questions? Can they put together an interesting argument? Can they do any interesting analysis? Do they try to engage people? If they do some of these things, then I try to overlook their bad behavior.
Unfortunately, you have done none of these things. You have been completely dull and boring and have avoided any kind of intellectual engagement. You have failed to insult with any wit. You have been perverse. You are simply behaving like a spoiled child.
I’m finished until you actually try to engage me with some ideas–not mere mouthiness without intellectual content. The vapid behavior you exhibit is what gives young atheists an effete reputation. Stupid, soulless, silly, sloppy smarminess. Arrogance without intellect. We had a better class of atheists in my generation–they had wit.
@soccerdadforlife - I don’t engage in “ideas” with people who call those with differing opinions “ignorant fools.” Perhaps when you grow up. =]
Jesus.
Obama just wants my money so he can bail out companies that make dumb decisions or people that buy houses they can’t afford.
@misswonderj - Well, maybe this is something we can talk about. I wasn’t calling someone with another opinion an ignorant fool simply because they disagreed with me, but because they opposed calling out someone who voiced an offensive statement without supporting it. That someone, of course, was you. You misunderstood because you failed to read what I wrote carefully. You failed to do your due diligence.
Jesus died for me. Obama has done nothing to win me over yet. I think the choice is clear.
Um. I’ve only had one hero in my life…a girl I used to call my best friend. Why? Because normally, I don’t look at people in “heroes and non-heroes”…but that girl…well…I was sworn to secrecy.
Hush, you.
I am watching “Death Race 2000″ and I think I have a hero
Wow, a lot of animosity here. What a shame, real opportunities for dialogue lost. For me the answer depends really. In the everyday world, the world I live in and interact in daily, I’d definitely have to say Obama. He has done much good over the years, helping to organize the poor to stand up for their rights and try to make their lives better, he became a constitutional lawyer to try to help more people, he also taught at University. We can’t forget his public service either, his years in the Illinois State Senate as well as serving as Senator in D.C. He has fought for what he believes in, for a better vision of the future. I’d say that’s pretty heroic, especially when so many get lost along the way and fall into corruption, greed, etc. True service to one’s countrymen is very admirable, and when successful it can be heroic. Obama won because he was the best man for the job at this juncture in time. We need someone who can inspire us to be better people, we also need someone to tell us the truth, that we face a very large challenge, but we can overcome it. Ultimately I would have to say as Obama would, that Jesus is more of a hero. President Obama is a Christian after all, I don’t think he’d like to be elevated above Jesus. In matters spiritual Jesus is one of my heroes, along with the Buddha, Moses, sometimes Muhammad, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, Saint Francis, Martin Luther King, jr, the Dalai Lama, Archbishop Oscar Romero, Dorothy Day, St. Maximilan Kolbe, and basically anyone who has genuinely tried to take God’s love into the world and change it for the better.
ya know, i think i’ll stick with jesus !
@soccerdadforlife - Incorrect. You are a name caller. And because of that you fail. You fail in getting respect as a commenter. Therefore anything you say is ignored because you don’t know how to do anything but insult whenever someone disagrees with you and calls you out on YOUR ignorance.
Grow up, then speak. =]
I’d have to say the Big J, but that’s because he was a miracle worker, prophet and son of God and what not.
Although if Obama pulls us out of this economic mess, I’d say he was something of a miracle worker as well, so that would be a point for him.
Jesus. For me personally, I can honestly say I was changed for the better because of Jesus. I think a lot of people are just looking for someone to believe in right now because times are hard.
Jesus.
What’s the difference between Jesus and Obama?
Jesus could actually assemble a cabinet. -not an original, someone else dropped that doozy before I did
@slamjoe - lol!
- – -
and in response to the post: Jesus.
nothing against Obama, of course.
Xangans are my heroes. Seriously.
Neither one, but at least Obama exists…unlike Jesus who likely didn’t exist.
John Lennon- bigger than Jesus since 1960-something.
Well, although I love Obama, he hasn’t done anything yet for me to call him a hero. He’s won the presidency, yes, but now he has to prove himself. Soooo, my answer is Jesus!
@misswonderj - You make unsupported accusations (call me ignorant). You never back up any of your accusations. I do. My name-calling, unlike yours, isn’t mindless, since I provide support for calling someone a name. You are a crank. Keep it up. It makes all you atheists look stupid.
Jesus
Jesus died so that I might have a chance to live and go to Heaven.
Obama is filling our country with false promises and is a very good speaker, and has not proven himself yet. Perhaps he will do a very good job, but I know he won’t sacrifice himself so I can go to heaven–so my choice is pretty obvious.
Jesus!!!
I’m sorry – hero? By what definition exactly? I think I missed something in the translation.
Thanks!
@MomentsEssentiels - That’s what I said! And with great incredulity too!
Jesus, he has done more, and will do more, than Obamma will ever think about doing.
Obama.
@Stoltz13 - As I said, I don’t believe in anything the Bible says. I think that it is a work of fiction.
Come up with some actual historical evidence of what Jesus has done, and I will take into consideration his “heroism.”
I am asking religious people because they are the ones who are saying Jesus, which means they should know something about him. I don’t think that what they’re citing as evidence is concrete enough for me to believe it.
I don’t care enough about this subject to research it myself, frankly. If i every have a lot of extra time, maybe I will.
@soccerdadforlife - And the Bible is a primary source? While it may technically be, it is an unreliable one at best. The authors were biased, saying what happened through the lens of a Believer. Therefore, this “historical source” is shady, at best. I’m sure some of the things are true, but most of them are exaggerations to inspire awe in the reader.
I’m sure I watched a History Channel show about the tomb of Jesus and DNA tests, which I know they did, but I guess these findings are still being disputed?
The written records of the Romans.
http://www.geocities.com/atheistdivine/historicaljesus.html
But actually, also according to their site, Christians destroyed any documents that talked about Jesus negatively, thus destroying all evidence of his existance. So, he might not have existed (news to me).
“There is a possibility
that Jesus did exist, as vouchsafed by the historical evidence, but the
practise of the Christian church in destroying records of Jesus (at one
time, anyone attempting to preserve writings which were hostile to him
was subject to the death penalty) and of falsifying various others
(such as Josephus) has paradoxically made it unlikely we will ever be
able to say with certainty that Jesus existed.”
Jesus didn’t come back to life because that is magic and I don’t believe in magic. Or, he came back as a ghost, and I don’t believe in ghosts. Maybe he never died to begin with.
He is competent because he is. I don’t need to defend my politics to you.
I’m extremely liberal and I hated George W. Bush with a passion, that is all I am going to say.
Jesus definately
All Obama has done is get elected for president. Plenty of people have done that.
Only Jesus died on the cross to save everyone.
I lol very hard at the people who somehow believe that Barack Obama has actually contributed anything to the betterment of our nation.
Well, okay. I guess that’s a bit cruel. But, seriously, there’s nothing all that special about our friendly brown president. Not yet, anyway.
So I vote Jesus.
@PenaltyLife - He is competent because he is. I don’t need to defend my politics to you.
I’m extremely liberal and I hated George W. Bush with a passion, that is all I am going to say.
You know, I was scrolling upward from the bottom and I saw those words first, and I seriously thought you were a Republican making fun of the Democratic stance. And then I scrolled up and I saw that you were actually being serious. And then I laughed a whole lot.
Wait. You… are being serious, right? I mean, because either way is fine to me. Your post would make a fairly nice satire with a bit of editing.
Either way, I give it two thumbs up for the lolability.
@Omelettes - Only because I’m sick of this debating, and no matter what my opinion is on the matter, it’s not going to be seen as valid because I’m an “immoral atheist.”
I don’t see why I have to defend what my belief in politics is when what I’m talking about has nothing to do with politics anyway. Especially since everybody who’s posting comments disagrees with me. I’d rather avoid the conflict.
Think I’m an idiot, that’s fine. I don’t really care what any of you think.
Its all a religous vs. politics thing. Coming from a 17 year old Christian, I gotta say Jesus only because of my beliefs. Its sad how some people could be so careless in the things they say though. Everyone doesn’t believe in things like that, understandable. But you don’t have to be completely abhorrent about your answer. Some people don’t see Jesus as just a story and don’t see Obama as a heroic figure but we have our opinion. My opinion, Obama isn’t really someone who can save me in a situation personally, therefore giving me inspiration to live on. And yes I am black but Obama is president and if this was said in front of a God fearing man as Obama you would bite your words. ^__^ I’m done! on and femaleBASSPLAYER<<I totally agree!
Obama. I’m too much of an atheist for the Jesus thing.
Jesus is my Lord, my Savior,But the word “Hero”, which usually means someone we look up to,someone we admire,Jesus gave his life for me, I don’t just admire him, I could not or would even want to be without him in my life.President Obama, I respect, I believe he will honestly try to turn this country around, But again, “Hero”?My “Hero”, is my daughter, as I said someone I admire, someone I look upto.To call Jesus my “Hero”, would in my mind, make him ordinary, and He is in no way ordinary, I can live without a “Hero”, I could not live without Jesus.I admire you, for your posts, they challenge our minds and our hearts, a “Hero”, in my definition of the word,But to even consider putting you, President Obama, Or even my Daughter, in the same category as Jesus? I am sorry, but I can’t even comprehend this.
How can you compare the two? One is died to save humanity, the other….hasn’t done that.
wow. that’s rather pathetic.
Jesus.I hope that Obama wouldn’t try and use the goverment to try and be like Jesus. That would be a dramatic waist of effort.
I can see why people would vote for Obama and how Obama might out win Jesus. After all, not everyone is a believer in Jesus, and Obama is a human just like us.
Jesus of course.
That question begs to corrolary:
Who’s more evil, Satan or Obama?
Obama.
You know, Obama believes in Jesus.
I don’t remember Jesus promising as much, and Jesus seems to have a longer term to do more. I would go with Jesus.
Also, from what I notice about Jesus and Bhudda, Bhudda is usually depicted sitting or laying down, while jesus is usually standing up or nailed to wood. So I would prefer Jesus. (probably just good PR)
@huginn - ”We have more of an understanding of the thinking, character, and intents of President Obama than we do a supposed character of Biblical past”
I do not.
@jhim43 - I do not.
You’ve got to be pretty damn old to have lived during Jesus’ time.
also, how did Obama beat out Superman or Batman, as far as heroes go? (or those 911 policemen and firemen)
@huginn - nope, just have been given more material about him.
@huginn - I thought Jesus was a supposed character from the bible, (by your definition) how would I be able to be old enough to know him? (your words, not mine)
Ugh. That makes me sick that people think Obama is some sort of Messiah.
@jhim43 - nope, just have been given more material about him.
Nope, you’re wrong:
1. Biblical account of Jesus is static.
(a) We don’t have the cultural and historical context for interperting the Bible.
(b) Biblical understanding of Jesus is limited by a finite number of pages and passages. Press coverage and newspaper articles of Presidenter Obama, however, is growing; and will probably continue to even after President Obama leaves office.
2. Biblical account of Jesus is limited
(a) The Gospels is at best, a second hand account of Jesus’ life and teachings. President Obama, meanwhile, has published two memoirs and given scores of speeches.
(b) The NT and Gospels is limited in writing highlights of Jesus’ life and particular anecdotes of his deeds. Meanwhile, with President Obama, the larger scope of video, audio, and written coverage gives us a fuller idea of who President Obama is and the minute aspects of President Obama’s lifea nd childhood.
3. Biblical account of Jesus is inaccurate.
(a) There are direct contradictions between the Gospels. While this lends to the credibility of the Bible overall, this means that minute details of it is inaccurate.
(b) There is few extra-biblican support for the Gospels.
(c) There is no support to the presupposition that the Gospels are first-hand accounts of Jesus written within Jesus’ lifetime.
Jesus.
Neither.
Other than being the first Black person to win the most brutal popularity contest in history (albiet with gracious efforts from the media), what’s to be admired about Obama?
Then again, at least he’s not mythical.
Obama claims to be a Christian. No Christian could stand to hear that said about himself. I am waiting for his repudiation of the people who asked that question. And his reprimand of those giving that answer.
It will be a very long and futile wait
@huginn -” (c) There is no support to the presupposition that the Gospels are first-hand accounts of Jesus written within Jesus’ lifetime.”
I know you see the absurdity of that statement
Give to Obama what is Obama’s and to Jesus what is Jesus’s.
Jesus is the Son of God. What is any mortal man, however exhalted, compared to that? And, when someone is compared to Jesus or, just as bad, allows that comparison, it is indicative of a self-destructive mentality. If that person is likewise one of authority and who vigorously seeks to expand that authority into every walk of life, then that person is utterly dangerous.
@huginn - I know you THINK you know how much material on Jesus I have been given in comparison to how much I have ACTUALLY been given, by proxy of material that is out there, but even in people who have been proven to exist, much material has been either forged, exaggerated, or just plain made up to make a nice little story we can fall in love with. For example, the author of a Million Little Pieces.
“We” do not know as much as we presume to know, and “we” know even less of what “we” presume others know.
@soccerdadforlife - Nope. You have no mind. =] And until you grow up nothing you say will be considered. Dismissed =D
Well, I have to say Jesus. Obama hasn’t done anything for our country yet, but I’ll give him some time to see what to really make of him…hopefully the trillions of dollars being spent by him will pay off somehow…either way, he’s not a hero at the moment.
@trunthepaige - I know you see the absurdity of that statement
It’s as absurd as saying that portions of the Koran is first-hand accounts of the might and magic of the Prophet Mohammad.
@huginn - No it is absurd to say something was not written during the life of Jesus, when the story is about his life, death, and resurrection. It could not have been written during his life could it? And The apostle John wrote the gospel according to John. He was a first hand witness.
You had to know better than to stand behind that one. You are far brighter than that.
@jhim43 - I know you THINK you know how much material on Jesus I have been given in comparison to how much I have
You’ve kinda ignored my arguments:
1a, b
2 a, b
3 a, b, c
“but even in people who have been proven to exist, much material has been either forged, exaggerated, or just plain made up to make a nice little story we can fall in love with.”
Sure, and this is especially the case with Jesus.
The difference between Jesus and President Obama is the avaliability of veryfying documentation.
Whereas only a paucity of documents exist from Jesus’ era, we have accounts and documents to check the veracity of President Obama’s memoirs and to fact-check his speeches.
“We” do not know as much as we presume to know, and “we” know even less of what “we” presume others know.
President Obama has survived a cycle of Presidential primaries an a Presidential Election. In these, it has been in the interest of the opposition to debunk and embarrass then-senator Obama.
Criticism and backing documents for President Obama can be googled and Lexis-Nexis’ed.
@jjw247 - That question begs to corrolary:
Who’s more evil, Satan or Obama?
Your mom.
@trunthepaige - It could not have been written during his life could it? And The apostle John wrote the gospel according to John. He was a first hand witness.
The document itself certainly makes the claim, but there’s no external verification of the timing.
You had to know better than to stand behind that one. You are far brighter than that.
I’m a skeptical atheists. It is in my nature to pose irritating, foundational questions. =D
@huginn - you seemed to have ignored my arguement. “I do not know Obama as well as I know Jesus.”
@jhim43 - The arguments 1a,b; 2a,b; and 3a,b,c are in direct rebuttal of that and all demonstrate how that shouldn’t be the case.
O-BA-MA!
I think the christians that liked “whatever his face is” wouldn’t support obama.
therefore, support jesus…. :O
jesus is a cool guy. :O
i actually wrote a “heroes” list on my FB.
I didn’t include Jesus or Obama. I put GOD.
But I do admire Obama and his past accomplishments.
So in a way, I look up to him. So I guess that would mean, he would be my hero.
When Obama raises someone from the dead, then I’ll take such a poll seriously.
That’s exactly the type of intelect that got a Marxist elected president.
that proves somehow that I, myself, have been given more material (false or not) about Obama than Jesus?
Obama.
@huginn - that proves somehow that I, myself, have been given more material (false or not) about Obama than Jesus?
@huginn - no external verification of the timing
That is true of almost all historical documents. few are ever held to your new standard. And almost none of them had so many people who believed them valid, so close to their claimed dates of origin.
Jesus has done what no man could ever do….of course He’s more of a hero than Obama. I would urge those who have put Obama up on a pedestal to remember that he is only human, he’s no savior. We humans tend to make mistakes and let people down.
JESUS – Did I say that loud enough?
@trunthepaige - That is true of almost all historical documents. few are ever held to your new standard.
Extroardinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
And almost none of them had so many people who believed them valid, so close to their claimed dates of origin.
Peripheray arecheological support only demonstrate the historical context of the mythology: Not the truthfulness of the actual tales.
There is an actual Troy, yet no one will confuse The Iliad with real history.
———–
And good to be debating with ya again, Trun. Missed you during your hiatus. =D
Jesus
Well.. fuck what anyone else thinks but.. me having never grown up Christian, I never bought into the wonderful world of Jesus. Remarkable as he might’ve been, there’s been remarkable people since him and Obama is the closest one to here and my time and me.
Sure he hasn’t done anything, as a president, yet.. but he is a person of remarkable character, roundedness and wisdom. Definitely someone I’d want my sons and other modern boys modeling after.
I guess the reason I’d choose him over Jesus, is because Jesus did his thing 2 millenia ago, and it hasn’t helped much of anything because his “followers” of today’s time aren’t saints and haven’t paid much attention to his actual word anyway.. so they don’t represent him or his ideals too well, if you ask me. I’ve only met one Christian who truly did.
So, for those reasons.. I’m not as well connected or familiar with the human being that was Jesus other than the tall tales about him walking on water and turning water into sake or whatever.. I don’t buy that those things actually happened so I don’t rank him as any more or less remarkable than any of recorded history’s down to earth non-superhuman heroes who’ve changed history.. and there have been many many.
I respect those who do… especially those who live beautifully by the teachings they glean from it, though I don’t think any one of them has done anything more than read a book, but I just don’t feel that sort of connection to someone who doesnt exist in my time and has been dead for more than 2 thousand years.
I do, however, feel connected with a person (who’s hand I’ve shaken
..) who’s a part of a downtrodden minority (just like me) who didn’t let said status stop him from becoming a world class, educated excellent man, (like I’ve tried to be), father and husband (like I’ll be someday soon)… and public figure.. one who knows how to inspire people to do their best (which we’d all be doing if we could just stop hating on the man, head the message and antie up) and has done nothing but try to do that since coming on the scene, seeing as our country is in a spiritual crisis as much as it is a fiscal one.
I think anyone with the boldness to defeat circumstance and become their best deserves to be a hero. I think anyone who can get theirs in the current day, and then turn back and try to lift the next man up.. deserves to be called a hero. I think anyone who can raise their voice and take a stance on things to make changes that do everyone good.. when they could just as easily live a perfectly happy life without doing that.. is worth being called a hero.
I think any guy.. who can be a success, an inspiration, and a stand up family man.. Obama or anyone else who’s done it.. can be a hero.. a hero for our time.. for our eyes.. and who’s voice speaks, audibly, to groups and a world as a whole that needs to hear it.
I think the messages Jesus might have had has been garbled and misinterpretted and downright perverted and lost over the centuries. Almost nobody.. outside the Vatican, maybe, can tell you what his original words even were.
So this is my reasoning. I’m not religious, I never will be.. but in the pragmatic, concurrent sense, a minority who stands up and shows the rest of us (minority or not) that the principals of this country and the free world aren’t bullshit if you try and fight your way to their optimum application.. should be a hero for generations, during a time when that’s what people need to see and hear and sense so that they’re inspired to become heroes.
If it makes you feel any better, I think even Jesus would agree.
Has Obama died for anyone (more like everyone)? No, so.. yeah. That’s pretty obvious.
On a more serious note it’s ridiculous that folks are looking at Obama in comparison to God (if you’re not Christian .. a god, whatever.. you get the deal)
How can he be looked at in that light, no matter what god we are speaking about? Crazy.
Top Bloggers are stealing my posts.
OBAMA! i don’t believe in that Jesus stuff…so OBAMA!
and even if i did…i probably would pick obama
@DarkYangofICE - i completely 100% agree with you!
I don’t really think of Jesus as a “hero,” it just has the wrong connotation for someone I would argue to be God.
Still, Obama isn’t really my hero either.
@soccerdadforlife – I choose the person who doesn’t already have a corrupt background. Who doesn’t bang on bibles to get their point across. I choose a sane person.
@one_eared_batman - …until he spends all of our money.
@lauraiswhoibeee - Millions of individuals around the globe celebrated when Obama was elected into office. Last time I checked that constitutes touching the world.
A guy who walks around in a business suit protected by hundreds of secret service or a man who healed thousands and put his life in constant danger? The choice is obvious.
@DarkYangofICE - holy christ you’re verbose
The day that Obama can call EVERYthing in the universe into creation simply by speaking the words … then MAYBE he’ll be worthy of the name hero. Until then, he’s just a mortal human being. He’s no better than anybody else on this planet. And he’s definitely NOT a savior. He’ll die like the rest of us, only he won’t be able to resurrect himself like Jesus did.
That is dangerous…
I’m all for Jesus.
holly shit really? that it hilarious!
@robopaul9 - or a man who healed thousands and put his life in constant danger? The choice is obvious.
If Jesus could end world suffering, why doesn’t he?
you know what, though? I think if it wasn’t between the two, I would choose someone that draws cartoons or something. I see heroes as people doing achievements that I wish to do, or who I wish to be like.
If all you have to look for is the president and a religious figure, you really should add variety to your life.
Jesus, of course. Obama acts like he’s king of the universe. Jesus really is our Lord and our King.
@PenaltyLife - Well, you are free to believe anything you want. Some people believe that the dinosaurs are an elaborate hoax. Others deny the moon landing saying that it was faked. Some even say that the Holocaust never happened and we even have surviving witnesses who will give testimony! So, you can believe (or think) anything you want, but it doesn’t make you right.
If you finally do desire to do real research on the topic, I suggest you start reading from these (non-Biblical) sources: Tacitus, Flavius Josephus, Julius Africanus, Pliny the Younger, The Babylonian Talmud, Lucian of Samosata, Mara Bar-Serapion. Like I said, don’t rely on religious people for your information. Do some of your own research, if your not close-minded or ignorant, you might actually learn something that you didn’t know before.
I guess my convincing you is about as likely as convincing the deniers of other historical events I mention above. I will leave this with you: There is nothing epistemically improbable about the existance of a man named Jesus, therefore (while it can be done) there really is no need for the New Testament accounts (seperate books compiled later) to be independently confirmed.
You seem to forget that not all Americans are Christian.
If Obama’s a joke, I shudder to think what Bush is to you, one_eared_batman.
@Stoltz13 - I do believe that Jesus existed, so I don’t really see the point of your comment.
But if I have some free time, I will definitely look into those sources. Thanks!
And of course there is a chance I’m wrong.
@huginn - Ah, one of the most popular questions asked in beginning Theology. If you really want that question answered, you should take a Theology class and delve into the Bible as well as prominent Theologians.
@PenaltyLife - uh he just died on the cross for your sins. Why don’t you RESEARCH Jesus like you’ve researched Obama, and then make judgment. And I mean REALLY research, not just what you hear from other people.
@PenaltyLife - My bad.
So, why do you think that the Bible is a work of fiction and not a historical document? Do you dismiss all historical manuscripts in this way or just some? What is your criteria for accepting and rejecting manuscripts? Are your methods fair and consistent?
Anyhow, I’m not here to argue with you, so I really don’t need to know your answers to my questions above. I just want to encourage you to pursue fairness and consistency in your studies of history no matter where it leads.
Wish you the best,
-Stoltz13
Jesus. He was more than a hero to me.
@Stoltz13 - I guess the truth is i didn’t really think when i said that. you are completely right, and i’m not being sarcastic.
i took a history class, and a lot of what’s said in the bible did really happen. there are actually accounts of a flood at the time of noah, etc. i do believe that there are some truths in the bible. i, however, think these truths are exaggerated to make a point.
anything from that time period you have to take with a grain of salt; some things can be proven, most can’t. (this is true for all historical documents of that time. they are all biased and were mostly meant as stories, not as history books.)
i became too defensive and didn’t really express my opinions correctly. i need to calm down before i get into arguments. hahaha
I was not surprised by this, as I’m pretty sure we solved this question in the election. Either you voted for Obama or you voted for someone who actually has a recognizable moral centre…
My vote was for Jesus.
Obama.
@PenaltyLife - Thank you. Your admission is refreshing and shows good on your character. I understand completely how it feels to be put on the defensive. In times like that I have been guilty of making bold statements and later feeling regret. So I have little choice but to forgive you completely
!
@Stoltz13 - Yeah! And then a day later when you’ve cooled down you’re like “darn I sound like an idiot.”
Happens to me all the time. :]
Glad this ended well. Maybe we’ll see each other around.
Jesus.
Why is this year 2009? It is because it has been about 2009 thousand years since Christ’s birth.
No one can deny the influence of Jesus over the last 2000 years.
@robopaul9 - Ah, one of the most popular questions asked in beginning Theology. If you really want that question answered, you should take a Theology class and delve into the Bible as well as prominent Theologians.
Cop-out.
Answer to such a simple question shouldn’t have to get itself lost in the dizzy convolution of double-think and circling reasoning.
Hero seems to be the wrong word for me for either. Jesus is my Lord & Savior. Obama is the President of my country. And I putting my hope in GOD, not a mere man.
None of the above.
The Beatles were bigger than Jesus, but Obama? C’mon.
Jesus, hands down.
Jesus.
ofcourse Jesus! besides.. Obama is a ‘follower’ and ‘believer’ of Jesus
Jesus, definitely! Obama hasn’t done anything heroic; not at all. People simply assume that he will, in the future, be the ultimate hero. HA. I laugh.
Jesus, on the other hand, died for EVERYONE. He risked everything, lowering himself to our level, losing his life- no, GIVING his life for us. Obama hasn’t risked anything. He’s happy as can be in the White House, signing bills that will turn our country to his benefit. I hardly see that as heroic.
@huginn - So you’re logic goes like this: easy question => easy answer???
@CutiePieSTephanie - Well stated.
Our country is headed for a depression. That will be hard to BS his way out of!
@misswonderj - Let’s review the dialogue. I called out people for making inflammatory, unsupported statements. You called me a “dumb fuck” without providing any supporting argument. I referred to you as a “dumb cunt”, but with support, which I admit was childish. You accused me of childish behavior. Obviously, you were acting childish when you called me a “dumb fuck”. So, why don’t you quit the hypocrisy and admit that you were acting childishly? I’m still waiting for you to post a reasoned argument. Your failure to do so speaks volumes, though I will happily be proved wrong should you do so.
@Picture_Perfect_Chaos - I’m kind of dense. What’s your point?
@huginn - A barbar doesn’t cut the hair of a man who does not visit his shop.
In other words, if they’re not following Jesus, Jesus probably will not find the need to help them.
Most of the Middle East is Muslim, and I suppose followers of Jesus face some persecution. That’s good; the Bible says we should. So…. it’s not neglect. It’s something that happens.
Definitely Jesus!
@PenaltyLife - The Golden Rule is actually called that because it’s in the Bible. I can’t cite you the passage, because I don’t remember which it is, but it is in there.
Just saying.
@xNicolax - LOL I love this =) And definitely Obambams, just because he’s the first tech-savvy president, and that’s a winner for me at any given moment.
@Sirius_Fan_Girl - That’s really interesting! I never knew that.
I still stand behind my thought that people would still follow that rule even if it was never stated in the Bible.
Idk, I just think people would still act selfless and kind with or without religion. Maybe I’m wrong, who’s to tell…
@Sirius_Fan_Girl - ”A barbar doesn’t cut the hair of a man who does not visit his shop.”
A father does not abandon his infinant child– and weigh the life of his chlid against a hug.
Switchblade and apron, Jesus is not the barber, he is the ripper. Those of us who don’t mindlessly love him right back, is cut and cut and cut.
“In other words, if they’re not following Jesus, Jesus probably will not find the need to help them.”
Jesus is an octomom who drowns five out of three kids.
Some help, huh?
Jesus, of course.
@robopaul9 - So you’re logic goes like this: easy question => easy answer???
Your religion is covered in the creamy bullshit of non-answers.
You’re not even capable of offering back the typical ball of brown fudge you’ve been force-fed. I don’t know if that’s kindness or an even deeper, transparent stupidity.
@huginn - ”Extroardinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”
Hi. Hope everything’s going well with you. Glad there’s a skeptic here with a brain for me to dialogue with. (not trying to send a thrill up your leg, just acknowledging what’s so, it’s been kind of pathetic so far here) Maybe you can teach the local yokel skeptics a thing or two.
Now to your point. This is just a repeat of Hume’s crappy epistemology. Epistemic justification isn’t a matter of degree. Let’s consider the low end of things, degree-wise–a human birth. Happens all the time. You’d think that the government would just accept someone’s word for when a person was born, but that isn’t the case. They want a document with a credential. A credential is based on two signatures, where a signature is a type of testimony. The gov wants testimonial corroboration.
Science uses credentials whenever fraud is suspected, such as occurs when an experimental report is unreproducible. Let’s say that “A” issues the initial report and “B” and “C” try to reproduce the results, fail to do so, and issue their reports. “A” lacks a corroborating credential. “B” and “C” corroborate one another, so they produce a credential. The negative side wins due to their credential. It’s possible that “B” and “C” are colluding, but since the experiment can be repeated by others, collusion can be easily discovered in that case. (Singular events are not reproducible, so other means must be used to defeat collusion.)
There are other human transactions that are much more rare than a human birth, yet they require no more evidence than does a birth certificate–two signatures. Science itself looks at some very rare events (some singular), yet no weight greater than corroboration based on empirical evidence is required for a credential. Hume is simply wrong.
Now let’s consider the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. We have four documents, three of which are essentially edited bench notes of one or more hearings where the apostles were questioned. First century Jews, which would have comprised the church for the first ten years, were experts in questioning witnesses. They knew that careful questioning of witnesses and corroboration were key to discovering historical facts. The early church in fact held at least one hearing where the apostles gave their testimony (“And with great power the apostles were giving witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus” – Acts 4:33). The Samaritans also held a hearing (“And so, when they had solemnly testified and spoken the word of the Lord….” – Acts 8:25). Furthermore, we know that the apostles were looking for opportunities to give their testimony (“…we cannot stop speaking of what we have seen and heard.” – Acts 4:20) So we see that the resurrection of Jesus has an adequate epistemic credential attached and that it is ostensibly based on empirical evidence.
@PenaltyLife - Ahh, please, if that was sarcastic, I am probably the worst sarcasm-identifier you will ever meet so forgive me for ignoring it. -.-
Oh, I definitely believe that. I’m sure a lot of people would still be kind and courteous and treat each other well, regardless of religious influence. But I think the religious influence causes many to strive for that still further. Even if you don’t believe in the Bible, you can hardly deny that it has some good moral values.
(Or maybe you can… though I daresay I could not agree.)
@jodine50 - That was an amazing answer.
@huginn - Don’t confuse evangelicalism with the religion of the Bible. Evangelicalism has been dumbed-down in order to appeal to the lowest-common-denominator. The Bible requires some analysis in order to understand it; the evangelicals generally aren’t willing or able to do that analysis. To be fair, there are a few who do a credible job, but they aren’t the big names.
Pastors used to have to be competent in philosophy, but that’s been abandoned. That’s why so many sound like idiots.
Course, for every evangelical who’s an idiot I can show you a skeptic who’s an idiot….
Oh wait, P
i don’t think obama did anything heroic…. but if i HAD to choose.. i’m goin’ with prez…
@soccerdadforlife - Not reading it. And why am I not reading it? Because you don’t know how to have a decent conversation. You already ruined your impression. =] Therefore you will never be heard. Might as well stop trying! =D
Perhaps when you grow up =D
Since the very definition of heroic is something epic or extremely impressive, I do not see how Obama has done anything heroic in any shape or form.
Jesus would definitely be my first pick.
@soccerdadforlife - Evangelicalism has been dumbed-down in order to appeal to the lowest-common-denominator. The Bible requires some analysis in order to understand it; the evangelicals generally aren’t willing or able to do that analysis.
Point taken!
And I myself woudln’t be able to engage in intra-Biblical discussions with you– I was never a Christian and don’t the time or interest the read the Bible critically.
Pastors used to have to be competent in philosophy, but that’s been abandoned. That’s why so many sound like idiots.
In this thread, what is your view of the Catholic Church? Having a central authority allows for at least some quality control.
Course, for every evangelical who’s an idiot I can show you a skeptic who’s an idiot…. Oh wait, P
We’re easy picking for you. -_-
@misswonderj - Hypocrite.
@soccerdadforlife - Perhaps when you grow up. =]
im seriously all for obama, but i just think jesus made more of an impact
people have only known obama worldwide for a few years when the race began
@huginn - ”In this thread, what is your view of the Catholic Church? Having a central authority allows for at least some quality control.”
Or not, depending on freedom to analyze and discuss. The theological journals provide that. Same as any discipline.
The Bible is the independent standard for Christians, not some hierophantic organization.
@misswonderj - Hypocrite.
@soccerdadforlife - Mhm. =]
@soccerdadforlife - You called me a “dumb fuck” without providing any supporting argument. I referred to you as a “dumb cunt”, but with support, which I admit was childish.
The hilarity! Analysis in a name-calling content.
I’m sure for most of us by-standers, you pass the awsome test.
@soccerdadforlife - Its sad to know someone came from those inferior sperm of yours. =D
Jesus
@misswonderj - Well since you brought up the subject, no, you can’t have any of my sperm. I’m not fooled by your reverse-psychology. And have you finished taking your antibiotic yet for that social disease you contracted?
@huginn - - If I can’t persuade, I aim to at least amuse. WonderJ is evidence for an argument for retroactive abortion. See if that doesn’t wind her up. LOL She’s so full of herself. Maybe someday she’ll turn into a real person.
@soccerdadforlife - Can’t use reverse psychology on someone without a mind =D.
I don’t believe in fairytales.
Obama.
@misswonderj - Well, maybe you do have a sense of humor after all. You seem to think (here I use the word with caution) that I somehow care whether you think I’m intelligent or need affirmation from you. Let me assure you positively that that is not the case. But don’t quit! Entertain with your insults. Test your neurons to make certain that both of them are firing! I enjoy wit, even when I am skewered by it.
David Berlinski, the modern king of wit, is my hero.
@SavannahGrace - ”
I don’t believe in fairytales.
Obama.”
Oh boring.
Chuck Norris.
@Sirius_Fan_Girl - No, no sarcasm at all!
And I agree that the Bible may cause some people to act more morally, but maybe others less morally. I only say that because a lot of wars have started over religion, and some of them the Christian religion.
But yeah, I think religions do cause people to act nicer and more morally than they otherwise would.
@huginn - Ignorance and assumptions make for a fool. You’re low self-esteem triggered responses are showing through quite clearly, so I won’t waste any of my more valuable time discussing this with one who has absolutely no education on the topic.
@robopaul9 - Gammar doesn’t seem to be your strong suit.
Jesus
@soccerdadforlife - Still going? And yet I’m still not reading what you say.
Why am I not reading it? Because you’re dumb and boring =|
Are you really that desperate for my attention? Seriously.
Don’t you have kids to raise or something? XD
@OurUnspokenTrust - Ditto XD
Hmm. If I was to answer, Jesus. But I don’t think I’m going to answer.
Hero is a chump label when it comes to icons. I mean, really? All it means to be a hero is that some one looks up to you or you have done something that some would call heroic. Therefore, anyone could be a hero without being the President of the USA or God Incarnate. So…find a more controversial label. Then we can have some fun.
Just saying.
Jesus.
Jesus. Obama is closer to being the Antichrist than any kind of hero!
Jesus, Obama didn’t do anything BIG yet…
@PenaltyLife - he died on the cross so you have a chance to go to heaven… duh.
@blancopantera - yay some with the truth!
uhhh obama. if he does a good job as president…… people need to stop being like OMGAH obama until he actually has done something worth OMGAHING about.
jesus hasn’t done anything heroic that i’ve seen with my two eyes. he has nice biceps though. and why i that jesus white?? jesus had darker skin.
soooo imma say neither??
That’s absurd. Jesus.
Jesus, of course.
Obama, but that’s because I’m not very religious
JESUS JESUS JESUS JESUS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!