March 4, 2009
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Should a Person With a Penis Be Allowed in a Woman’s Locker Room?
I was just reading an article that asked the question “Should a person with a penis be allowed to use the women’s locker room because he feels like he’s a woman?”
A case is going to court where a preoperative transsexual tried to join a women-only gym. The individual has a penis but has not had the surgery yet. Here is the link: Link
Should a person with a penis be allowed to use the women’s locker room because he feels like he’s a woman?
Comments (134)
It’s complicated.
@Thegirlwhoknowstoomuch - Ditto.
by the time the case is over, he’ll probably have his willy removed anyway.
uhh… no.
NO
That’s difficult to say.
Because then perverted men could technically just say that they’re trannys without surgery yet… and then go in there and do whatever.
man you sure can find them.. women only gyms need to be banned..
or bring back mens clubs
No. He should change his gender through surgery first. Same goes for a woman wanting access to facilities for males.
It may sound harsh, but we can’t have just anyone claiming to “feel” like the opposite gender gaining access to such private areas.
@Thegirlwhoknowstoomuch - umm…yeah.
a penis duznot defyne a man
It depends on the person’s orientation, if you know what I mean.
IT’S A GIANT CLITORIS, JEEZ.
Yep. It’s not as if dildos don’t exist.
Yeah, I wouldn’t have a problem with that.
as long as this person looks and acts like a woman, and they have separate showers in the lockerroom
No.. So lets cut it off once and for all!
I would say that it is the women’s choice. If the women in the gym are okay with it, fine. Either way, some women are going to have a problem with it. So they’d have to set up special times and restrictions. Then I’m sure that other men will try that and being faking.
It’s probably best if they don’t for the safety and comfort of the women.
I do feel bad for the man though. It’s a shitty situation through and through.
Perhaps it’s the limitation of Xanga but I clicked on this link in my subs because it read: Should a person with a penis be allowed in a woman. And I thought–why not if it’s consensual? But then I read this and realized what you meant. It’s complicated I suppose–we had a transgender in our workplace before and he had not yet had surgery so the office, with his consent, sent out a memo detailing why he was going to use the women’s bathroom.
“Should a person with a penis be allowed in a woman…” <–that’s all that fit in my browser window.
I agree, it’s complicated. Are the customers feeling sexually harrassed? Is the said person a lesbian trapped in a man’s body? Who knows?
@Thegirlwhoknowstoomuch - It sure is.
I think a person’s gender identity is more important than his/her/its (damn lack of adequate pronouns!) physical parts. If you consider yourself female, use the women’s room; if male, the men’s. OR to be completely fair we could just have unisex bathrooms. They’ve all got stalls anyway. Problem solved! Inherent social desire for privacy wins out over bigotry and confusion regarding sex identity.
No. Having a penis… means you are male. And even if and when he has it removed… no matter what he looks like… he will always be a man. Surgery to remove penis and testicles, facial hair removal, breast implants, makeup, heels and skirt… still a man in a dress. God does not make “sex assignment” mistakes. I feel bad for the guy…boy is he going to feel awkward when we all have to stand before the Father and explain ourselves. PTL I will have Jesus to do it for me.
yes. can you imagine what a transgender individual would have to put up with in today’s sucky society if they went into the MEN’S locker room instead? give me a break. they would get beaten.
In that specific instance, though, it’s that person specifically wanting to join a gym, not being in a unisex gym and having to chose a locker room. So it’s different, but, I don’t see why anyone really cares, it’s not like the penis is going to attack them or something. Presumably any law against that is to prevent peeping toms, although in reality it’s impossible to govern this because lesbians are allowed in girl’s locker rooms and gay guys are allowed in boy’s locker rooms… so anyone can be a peeping tom, really
i think everyone is just too sensitive about the naked body in general…
@ModernBunny - good point.
there’s always someone wanitng to abuse the sytem or other’s trust.
then again — HOW will they prove they’ve had the surgery donr?
HAHAA
@ModernBunny - AGREED.
@MomGoneMadd - yeah i’d have to say no as well. i don’t even like the idea of a man trying to sell me a bra or a women selling a man a suit. i’m a little old school. when he finishes the “procedure” then yeah, go for it.
LOL how are we going to distinguish if this person w/ a penis is really not just trying to see naked chics?!
@bigcatholicmicah - that’s a silly argument. so if you’re born without legs, you can’t get artificial limbs because God wanted you to be born without legs?
Yes.
@eyesochinky - if you’re a guy, how do you know all the guys in the locker room aren’t gay and just there to look at naked men?
basically: the locker room is not a good place to be, if you don’t want to be seen naked. Work out at home then.
@relaxolgy - Well, there’s only one way to prove a thing like that…
Oh good grief….keep the penis OUT of the ladies room pleeeze!! We have enough on our minds than to see THAT thing in our locker room!
Women’s gyms are usually full of out of shape women my age or older, and we don’t even like to undress in front of each other. Guys looking for hott young girls are more likely to find hot-flashing old ladies instead, which would probably be punishment enough for playing the system. As long as there are separate dressing stalls it wouldn’t bother me.
At what point does he become a woman? I would think that at least the surgery would have to be completed first. Though he could save everyone involved, including himself, the trouble by accepting the gender identity he was born with.
It wouldn’t bother me. But by NY State law, as long as someone is pre-op, they have to use the bathroom of the sex they were born with.
Didn’t we already talk about this? Link
@ScarletMoth - Your arguement is flawed, because you are stating two things that are not related at all. One is medical condition, the lack of legs where there should be legs. The other is a mental issue… not being happy or content with what you were born with… that is, a penis or a vagina.
A human person is meant to be whole, complete, with arms, legs, and all 5 senses and the ability and the desire to pro-create. But because sin and disease entered the world, many men and women are born without certain limbs, or wounded minds. This does not make them sinful, so don’t open that door. It does make their life more challenging, more of an oportunity for grace, for transformation, for being a witness to Life and what God can do in it, regardless of what challenges are faced.
Well, I don’t know. This is a complex question. And it requires a complex answer. OR an answer from someone with a complex. Here comes both.
If:
a= penis
b= women’s locker room
c= how much a randomly chosen individual commenting on this post actually cares about its subject matter
then:
If a>c, b=Yes
If c/pi=b, ab=0
Therefore, yes.
Uh…no.
Eh, I don’t see why not. I’m sure the women in the gym have seen a penis before. Besides, it’s not like he’s a perv who’s joining just to check ‘em out & try to score…he’s pretty much a woman himself.
No
If he’s changing his sex and going to get the operation then yes.
how humiliating!
being transgender must be really tough.
@randomneuralfirings - Though he could save everyone involved, including himself, the trouble by accepting the gender identity he was born with.”
What about hermaphrodites?
but!
having a penis does not mean you’re certainly a creeper. there are alot of freaky women out there too. banning a guy for having a wang isn’t necessarily the right action…
As long as the person was really a preop instead of a perv who wanted to see naked women that would be fine.
If this type of thing is allowed, I’m afraid there will probably be a bit of a rise in accounts of rape and molestation. If pre-ops are afraid of getting flak, they’re going to get even more if they go in a woman’s locker room. A majority of people who’ll make use of this law are pervs, not pre-ops, I’m sure. The Governator has been working on that type of law for bathrooms in California. I believe it’s better to err on the side of caution.
So “no” to the question. It’s too general. How do you decide if someone legally feels like a woman?
@ModernBunny - Agreed.
Um, no. Ridiculous. By that logic, I should be allowed backstage at a Broadway play because I “feel” like I’m part of the cast.
In mathematical terms, this is what happens when the discrete binary world clashes with the continuous analog world.
@bigcatholicmicah
As much as I agree that people should just stick with their natural-born gender, there seem to be logical reasons for gender-confusion. One scientific study (It was on 20/20 or one of those types of shows) said that sometimes mothers release an excess of certain hormones that can affect the baby. For example, if a mother is in a car accident or some stressful event the rush of adrenaline may make the baby, boy or girl, tend to have a more masculine personality. While I think transgenders are confused (who wouldn’t be in that state), I don’t think the deserve condemnation.
I don’t really care who wants to use the locker room with me as long as they follow the locker room rules. Lesbian women use the locker room with me and to me that is really no different than having a man in the room. I even had a woman in a locker room tell me I had a great body and ask me out. But she was polite and not pushy about it and I just said no thank you and went on with my life. If we can just all respect each others privacy and space I don’t see the problem…. ~Echo
No, that’s dumb. Maybe we are going to have to start designating gender as penises and vaginas…
I say no….Interesting Controversy; however!!! Your Writing is Dynamically Interesting!!!
@laurenmaureen - That was my thought.
um nice try pervert. Now all the guys are gonna try to pull that one off.
and to answer the question. NO.
Yes.
if you have a penis…you go to the men’s. Till you chopped it off….you go to the men’s
What they think of themselves as is what they are. If they have a penis and they think they’re a woman, then they’re a woman. How would you feel if someone told you who you were, if someone told you how you felt, and if someone told you what gender you were attracted to??
I believe that it should be allowed. It should really be based on sexual orientation. Oftentimes I believe that a gay person should not be allowed in the same sex locker room. It really depends on the mindset of the person.
Yes. As long as he is a legitimate transgendered person (as in going through the therapy and testing to get reassignment; it is such a long process).
I always imagined the separate men’s and women’s stuff was about voyeurism. If this guy is going to become a woman and date men, I doubt he wants to use the women’s locker room so he can stare. I mean, as long as he doesn’t take his underwear off, since that would be awkward… personally I don’t see a problem with it.
Um, No – Penis = Man
@lil_squirrel4ever - i.. thought that too.
@bigcatholicmicah - but that’s just words. How do you know there SHOULD be legs? How do you know God didn’t purposefully make that individual without legs?
Conversly, if one feels they should have legs (because it comes down to what you feel you should have), one can also feel that ones needs to be a girl when one was not born a girl.
of course missing limbs doesn’t make you sinful. It’s how you born. Just as how if a man is born in a woman’s body, does not make him a sinner. Seeking a leg does not make you a sinner; seeking the right body does not make you a sinner either.
@TheEccentricPerson - if it’s based on sexual orientation, then what about bisexual people?
@ScarletMoth - I guess we will just have to disagree. Read St. Thomas Aquinas sometime… about privation. it might help you to see where I am coming from.
no. fact is–he’s not a woman, he’s simply confused because society dictates gender roles.
sometimes, I think I’m a cat. doesn’t make me one ;)
no its just weird ._.
Yes, what defines your sexuality is what you feel inside and not what you have in the inside.
He can go in… after he is a she.
yep, he has the mind of the women. and he pretty much is a women. should i have to wait a long ass line in the women’s bathroom because they don’t know how to properly take a piss? or some just hang out on the seats of the toilets? no. instead i goto the men’s restroom and use to bathroom their. sure their willys are hanging out, but should i care? no way, i’m a lesbian. they can keep their willys to themselves.
I wouldn’t have a problem with it. I know other people might, but maybe a little diversity would be good for ‘em!
gross no
Until he legally becomes a female, the answer seems pretty straightforward and simple: No!!!
NO.
@shannonnx10 - Then it goes back to mindsets. It should be based on which gender the person relates more to.
Personally, I don’t care about it. If the guy identifies as female then why the hell not?
Then again, this is coming from a gal who’d use a locker room full of straight guys who identify as dudes. So maybe I’m a little biased.
Hell, I’m even all for co-habitation of males and females on college campuses. I would so get along better with guys than the fuckin’ bitchass hoes I’m living with now.
I don’t really discriminate between males and females; be it sexual preference, roommate, or best friend. I know I said I’d get along better with guys if I lived with them instead of my current roommates, but that’s merely because my current roommates are….well….whores.
My two cents. =)
Well I disagree with gender-only clubs (both men’s clubs and women’s gyms), but given the purpose of women’s gyms I would have to say that would be inappropriate. As someone mentioned, any guy could say he was trans and get in anyways. There are some instances where the penis does define the man!
I would understand if it was a gym where there were men and women. Why would a transgendered person try to do a woman’s only gym. Everyone involved needs to be respected. If they can restrict some time of place for the transexual then I think it might be ok. I don’t think everyone else has to suffer because one person wants to do something. I think that is also wrong.
What she said =>@ScarletMoth
I think he should respect other people enough to realize that they’re bound to be uncomfortable if he is in a woman’s locker room before his operation.
@Angelsdelight - If he went to a gym with men, he might get beaten up by stupid bigots.
Before anyone answers this question I think they should be educated about transgendered individuals and their gender identities. Just so you know, most transgender people are never noticed as their actual sex once they start their hormone therapy for their sex changes.
If you really want to get in the head of a transgendered person, read She’s Not There: A Life in Two Genders by Jennifer Boylan.
and why oh why would you have been reading that article?…
No. I’m a woman, and…it’s awkward enough getting changed in front of lots of other women, but if someone with a penis was in there…idk, it would seriously bother me…
@laurenmaureen - I absolutely agree.
no, because it would make me feel un-comfortable.
since he’s going to get the surgery anyway, why not just wait?
No, I would feel comfortable knowing a man is in the same locker room as me.
@bigcatholicmicah - actually, there are medical conditions in which a child is born with both male and female genes or both male and female genitalia/reproductive organs.
so IF god does exist, then he does make sex assignment mishaps, as illustrated above. so why can’t someone be mentally one gender and physically another, if it is medically possible to physically be two genders simultaneously?
@bigcatholicmicah - I agree.
No.
@ScarletMoth - i second that.
@starshinelilly - haha, i know right? what’s with the hovering? and i wish more women weren’t afraid to take a shit in public restrooms. it’s not like everyone else’s shit doesn’t stink.
post-op? yes.
pre-op? no.
Agreed…
Post-Op? Yes.
Pre-Op? No.
Sure. As long as his junk isn’t out flapping in the breeze then it’s cool.
If the driver’s license says “female”, then yes, that person should be permitted entry into female-only places.
its really hard to say… but let’s say if they were allowed, what if say… (please insert a more… scholarly term for perverts here) pretended to ‘feel’ like a women and go there? where is the line?
I think it is dangerous if the rule was not defined properly.
@phoenix_escape - God does not cause someone to be born with 2 sets of genitals. He allows it… but does not cause it. Just in the same way that He allows me to have hypertension. Was it His orginal plan…No. Medical issues and sickness are a product of sin entering the world. It is a wonder that we live in an age where such things can be corrected. But gender confusion is not a physical medical issue. It is a psychological one. One that can be treated, but it requires understanding, patience, and lots of love and support that does include enabling a choice that is harmful to the integrity of the person.
The problem is, we have blurred the gender lines so much, what it means to be a man, and what it means to be a woman, all at the same time of putting down the other gender. Just because you feel like a woman doesn’t mean you are one.
I love women, I want women to be empowered and to embrace all that it means to be a formidable woman of grace and stature, without compromising the great gift that womanhood is. And I say this as a man who is choosing to be celibate… to forgo the pleasures of the flesh for the greater glory of God.
@ScarletMoth - Thats just my argument. I don’t shower/change in locker rooms. I go to the gym already dressed & suck it up and shower when I get home. Simple! Plus… I’m just sayin
)
A woman’s locker room is a great place for a penis to be.
@bigcatholicmicah - if god allows physical ailments, can he not also allow psychological ailments? is psychological not physical also? is your brain not a part of your body? i’m not trying to say that it’s a mental disability, but it is a reality that it is affected by your brain’s chemistry, as is every other choice you make. so why not this one?
I, personally, wouldn’t have a problem with it. Though I know several women that would.
I’d say not until he has his peepee romoved. The law goes by what’s down there, not by how you feel.
Uhhh…no…
No women’s gym until he removes the doorstop.
No penis allowed! lol.
Absolutely..NO!!! What the DSM classifies as Gender confusion {without going into all the details}does not fit most cases, {perhaps that is why it is being rewritten to include them} based on my experience with them most are into porn, fetishes, and many more perversions that can not be fully written here. I feel this law is like other such laws protecting the deviant and a breeding ground for women and children to become victims.
@RaVnR - OR to be completely fair we could just have unisex bathrooms.
Like at the UC Berkeley dorms.
NO!
if I’m changing, I don’t want to see/be around a penis.
I don’t care what his head is “telling him he is”
penis = you’re not a woman and you need to get out of the womens locker room.
call me closed minded, I don’t care.
No. He’s not a woman yet. When he becomes a woman, then he can join.
There are so many issues that go into this, that it’s going to be difficult for me to make my point in such a short period of time.
Let me start off by saying that I am a lesbian female who is very active in promoting and encouraging transgender/genderqueer equality. This is an issue that is very close to my heart, so I may or may not be somewhat biased.
Okay. First point: you typically hear arguments against sexism referring to females, but in cases such as this, it works both ways. Just because someone is male automatically means that he is a sexual predator? No, obviously not. While it is true that he could be, it is just as true that a female could do the same thing. I don’t think it’s very fair to assume that men are threats all the time.
Second point: if she identifies as female, she should be able to use female facilities. Put yourself in her shoes for a moment. She goes around all day with the pressure of her body not matching her mind and her feelings. If she were forced to use male facilities, that would only place extra emphasis on what is already being overemphasized. The confusion, embarrassment, and insecurity that many transgender people experience is almost unimaginable. This is not about what you feel is right or wrong; it is about the emotional well-being of the person in question.
On the flip side, I can definitely see the validity in an argument against this. What if legitimate sexual predators began to pose as transgender in order to gain access to these facilities? And that is precisely why this is such a complicated, difficult issue. While I stand against my point that not all men should be assumed ‘dangerous’, and that a transgender person should be able to use the public facility of his or her choice, I acknowledge that real sexual predators are a threat.
In summary, my answer to your question is yes, for all intents and purposes, but with a nod to the threat that it could pose.
Nope. I’m sorry, but “feeling” like a woman does not mean you are or ever will be. There is a reason it’s a woman’s only gym. Women can go there to work out, without worrying that some pervert is looking at them or peek around in the shower room.
It’s sad that people in this work like to make issues out of EVERYTHING and create controversy.
@NightCometh - I agree. Just because you “feel” like something does not mean that’s what you are. Where would the line be drawn?
I believe that should be settled with a women only vote.
“It’s complicated!?” Give me a break. Feeling like a woman doesn’t make someone a woman. I wouldn’t feel comfortable with a man (transgender or not) in a locker room with me. If these women joined a female only gym, that probably means they don’t want to be seen exercising, let alone changing or showering, in front of men.
I think it’s funny how supportive people are when others want to change gender because they don’t like the way they were born, but yet I remeber watching a tv show recently about people wanting to change their race and everyone was up in arms telling them to be proud of the way God made them.
In my inbox, the title was cut short and it read as the following:
“Should a Person With a Penis Be Allowed in a Woman”
that is all! ROFLOL!
@ComaWhiteX - I don’t think someone possibly being a sexual predator is the issue here. My father, uncles, and male friends (straight and gay) are all wonderful, decent men, but I would never change or shower in front of them. I understand that it is hard and uncomfortable for a transgender person to find their place in the world, but you also have to think of how uncomfortable these other women would be.
Nooooo…..I would feel very uncomfortable if I saw a he/she in the bathroom.Plus,my husband might hurt him or come close to it.So,noooooo…
You know I would say after your surgery is completed you may join but until then he has to consider his current members saftey and comfort and their rights, the “rights” transsexual’s shouldn’t trump the rights of his current clients.
what the hell? no way… that’s really creepy
I have worked with many transexuals in my lifetime as a pre-op therapist, it is a difficult process and the need to have to reality that once the surgery is finnished they can inter into this position but not really until it is premature. but for some of the comments on the blog I’m amazed how sick some of you guys come across and how predijuce you really are. I agree God doesnt’make mistakes BUT we live in a world that in under a curse and I think COMPASSION is in order here for the many who struggle with this very lonely and difficult aversion.
IT DOES NOT MAKE THEM PERVERTS!!!!! Your selfrighteousness is a far worst and PERVERSE (PERVETED THINKING) than this trans-gendered person. I tried to discourage the surgery because I agree that God make them male but IF they still have this aversion and “feeling ” of being mis-formed in the womb who are we to judge them?
Think about it this way Women are formed FROM men if you belive your Bibles, so to reassign this mans body to a female what is your real problem? It is choice and God made us all free agents of our own choices, and yes He and then (s)he will be accountable to He(r) creator. I think GOD can handel it! The after life isn’t about gender there will be no male nor female in the after life so we are taught, so allow this person to live with some dignity.
If he likes men and he truely feels that he should be a woman, fo sho.
Anyway, lesbians are allowed to join.
But i guess it’ll only be a while ’til his penis has gone
I think that the surgery could be quickly done at the door with one of those gadgets from one of those infomercials. Please… if this person has this problem, I don’t see why he can’t wait until he has solved it. We call it patience. This case shouldn’t even be going to court.
@NightCometh - nicee!!
I say he should wait until the operation is completed. Or…..he could take care of the “problem” himself. He already seems to have emasculated himself psychologically.
I would say, Lets define penis in this case from a preoperative transsexual, Is it still able to reproduce semen yes or no, If the answer is yes then No this person is not fully acknowledgeable as female, If no then its a matter psychology. On the other hand the person has not the fully appearance as a female, It would be disturbing to other females to knowledge the rest of the appearance but not what dangles down there. So the answer should be NO this person as yet can not make the claim true to be fully female.
@randomneuralfirings - She does accept the identity she was born with. It’s the body she’s non too pleased about.
I’m sure that had she been allowed to use the locker room she would have used a stall. No TS that I know would want anyone to see that dammed thing either. I fully understand that other women don’t know for sure if she is TS or simply a perv out for a thrill but what we gonna do?. The only thing we can do is prove that we aren’t there for a thrill, by being there and behaving appropriately the same as every other woman in there. Beisides which the anti androgen hormones prevent it from working anyway thank god
Absolutely not. If he has “confusions”, that’s his own problem. He has no right to burden others with it. Besides, people with these sort of “problems” are all too often liable to have other and more destructive ones as well. What young woman or mother with her little girls is going to want to have an overt deviant in a place that should be considered a safe refuge for them?
yeah…why should it matter?
Well, there should be some sort of a trial period.
I could care less, honestly.