June 24, 2009
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Gays In the Church Directory
The messengers of the Southern Baptist Convention voted a church out of the convention because of its tolerance of gay members.
The church, Broadway Baptist Church, had attempted to post photos of same-sex couples in the church directory next to photos of other families. A controversy broke out in the church over the issue. Here is the link: Link
Do you think God would want photos of same-sex couples in the church directory?
Comments (191)
I don’t care.
oh this will start something interesting I am sure.
Ive known of gay couples to come to churches or be present in services, but any sort of inappropriate behavior wasn’t allowed [two chicks were totally feeling each others booties lol], but thats totally the same as any other couple, same sex or not.
Um, some religions are allowing gay members, some aren’t. I don’t think I would be willing to speak on God’s behalf of whether he likes it or not … I doubt it, but then again I am just not in Gods mindset, ya know?
obviously not.
God didn’t create Adam for another Adam.
If nobody can tolerate homosexuality then where will they be able to go to hear religious veiws
Dont Christians want EVERYONE to go to heaven?
and who are we as humans to say they aren’t allowed
who are we to judge them?
@HiROBii - PS the saying is “God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve” and frankly it is a saying made by Homophobes…
But who are you to say homosexuality is wrong? You sin too
therefore you have ABSOLUTELY no room to talk
@HiROBii - God didn’t create Adam for another Adam.
But God did create Steve for Adam.
God is responsible for the nature of his creation.
@HiROBii - You’re really going to go there?
whatever. cant we all just mellow and get along?
What a beautiful family; I would love to have their photo in my church directory. And yes, I believe printing their picture would be more pleasing to God than excluding them would be. “Love them like Jesus,” as Casting Crowns would say.
They’re living in defiance of Biblical teachings so they shouldn’t be part of corporate worship/study. For the record, being cast out of the church isn’t always permanent and should be used as a call to self-reflection and repentance.
Ah, controversy. I think you’re trying to get everyone to unsubscribe, Theo-san.
Anyway, I really see no problem with same sex marriages and the like, but apparently churches in America (I really wouldn’t know) are anti-gay marriage and whatnot. I think that gays have the right to, well, be gay and get married to someone of their own gender, but people see it as a crime and unnatural. Thus the nickname “queer”.
I doubt god would really care.
@JJ_Ames - If the church is going to be so bold as to reject gods people then the CHURCH should be the ones doing some reflection
There’s a BAPTIST church that allows gays?!?!?!?!?!? I can’t believe it’s not butter!! I’m not surprised one bit that pretty much every other Baptist church would be against that.
As a former church secretary, I can say with confidence that God hates picture directories. They are of the devil. I threatened to roll one up and whack the pastor over the head with it if he ever let a salesman talk him into doing one again.
@HiROBii - I agree with you! i don’t care who tries to give you/us bullshit if they have an opinion then we do too
I think we’re all going to HELL for assuming we know what God would do in matters like these and I think we’re all going to be VERY VERY sorry we answered these questions, made these calls for the church and in doing so, turned people away from the God we serve because we’re such arrogant know it all dickheads…
That’s what I think, DAN!!!
@CelestialTeapot - ”God is responsible for the nature of his creation.”
What God originally created no longer exists – this is a fallen world. Because we’re now sinful by nature, it’s natural to do wrong – our essence is corrupted. To say that homosexuality is natural and therefore good is a poor argument – there are natural impulses that we should and do resist.
I think God would prefer the church to spend money on missions instead of printing a lame directory. But that’s just my opinion.
I don’t participate in organized religion despite my Christian beliefs because I tire of churches and officials and others trying to tell me what God would or wouldn’t want. Sure, in the eyes of God (according to the Bible) homosexuality is a sin, but who am I to judge? That’s all in His hands, not mine. That’s pretty much the case with any sin, and if we’re all sinners, where does that leave everyone else?
@MomGoneMadd - Why thank you, finally someone who gets it
*virtual high fives*
@ThatSillyLittleGirl - God’s Word, the Bible, teaches that people living in sin, any sin, are to be cautioned against it and if they refuse to repentant they’re to be cast out of the Church body. I’m not claiming that Christians need to be perfect to attend church, the building would be empty if such were the case, but if someone is living in an unbiblical or anti-Christian manner then it makes absolutely no sense to allow them ot be part of a Christian community.
If Christians won’t stand up for their own beliefs then their faith is already dead.
@JJ_Ames - Well then lets cast out all the people who drink, smoke, look at porn and commit adultery.. Oh no wait, we cant.. those people dont expose their sin, they do it in private and that makes it all ok.
If no one knows, we get to be in the directory, right?
It’s sort of funny when a christian will say “Don’t judge me, it’s not your right to do so, only god can.” but as soon as you throw something like a lesbian/gay person in church, or someone having an abortion, it’s all of the sudden totally okay for them to judge those people. Make up your mind. Is it okay to judge, or is it not okay to judge? You’re not an “exception to the rule” just because you consider yourself a christian. Sin is sin. If I’m not mistaken, the bible talks about how no sin is worse than the other because it is all sin. That would mean that you lying and being a fucking hypocrite is just the same as someone being gay in gods eyes. So I guess that means that since gay people don’t belong in a church for being gay, then people who lie, steal, have unadulterated thoughts, have premarital sex, get drunk, get tattoo’s, smoke cigarettes.. (I think you get the picture) aren’t welcomed, either. Everyone sins. What, they never said that? Well, they didn’t have to. Their actions spoke for them.
Hypocrisy is fucked up.
@JJ_Ames - Well if you immediately jump to casting out all the sinners how will they be able to hear the word of god? sure they can read the bible but then they interperate it how they wish. they may not think it is wrong and you are denying them the guidelines that we heterosexuals get. Besides isnt it God who casts the final judgement? who are we to say they aren’t good enough to be amongst all of us sinners…
@MomGoneMadd - I was responding at the same time as you, and obviously I agree Lol
@Saridactyl - Kudos! *claps*
@MomGoneMadd - Couldn’t have said it better my self!!! What makes gays so terrible? It says in the bible somewhere that every sin is just as bad as another so seriously if we cast everybody out then we wouldn’t have a church…Hate the game not the player
IT MAKES ME SO MAD
Homosexuality IS a sin. Naturally we should cast everyone who practices it out of the church. And we shouldn’t stop there. We should cast out everyone who’s guilty those other sins. You know those: price, lust, greed, gluttony, envy, wrath and sloth. And that ought to eliminate any need for any church directory.
@randomneuralfirings - it would eliminate the need for a church
there wouldn’t even be a pastor
Let them do whatever they want to do… how about we focus on real issues? Like the fact that people are living in tents because their homes got foreclosed?
@Saridactyl - I’m gonna pose for my church directory with my beer drinking husband (holding a Hefenweissen) who was previously divorced, my blended family with my bastard kids from previous non married relationships, my tattoos showing, a bag of weed on my lap, a pipe in my hand and my prescription pills scattered all over the floor and a cross necklace to remind me that His grace is good and these people are fake and should be ashamed of themselves…and the church who lets us put our REAL selves into a family directory is the church for me…
Yes.
@Mac_Libureet - the Word says homosexuality is an abomination…thats why they get mad. The way I see it is, Christ died for them too.. plain and simple.
@ThatSillyLittleGirl - There is always a need for God’s church, today moreso than ever.
Isn’t the church doing what the bible preaches against? Doesn’t it say “Judge not lest ye be judged”?
@randomneuralfirings - if you cast out every sinner there will be nobody left…
Stupid question Dan. Haha. You’re like a farmer dropping seed among the brainless chickens who will simply fight over it, JUST for the amusement of it all.
Oh why cant we all just be friends? Why must there be such hate in this country?
I can’t speak for god, but I say gays have families too.
Jesus liked some occasional buttsex, that doesn’t make him gay. That doesn’t make him a bad person.
The whole argument is silly.
The way I look at it is that God is the judge. I’ve met a few married lesbian couples and I don’t have a problem with it. They were all very nice to me. But homosexuality in my understanding applys only to men and it’s wrong. I saw a documentary on PBS about a lady who was an associate pastor. All she wanted to do was love her congregation, and she did. It was her dream job and dream ministry. So after she was established in her church she told everyone that she was a lesbian and had a partner that she had been with for many years. She was fired. Her dream was shattered and her ministry made much more difficult.
if they are christians, they will be accepting of everyone. it’s what we all promise to do when we give our lives to Christ, no?
it is not a person’s place to judge anyone or decide who is allowed to worship. and if a gay couple wants to worship, why not let them?
if everyone else has their family picture in the church directory, a gay couple should have that same right.
also, the story of adam and eve was made up by men-god didn’t write the bible. it is a story to teach a lesson, not to be taken literally. how is it possible for two people to be in love and that not be from God? Satan doesn’t make people love. Satan creates hate, and from what i see, most christians have decided to deny the lord because they can’t accept that a man can feel love for a man or a woman for a woman. in my eyes, these people have let the devil into their hearts instead of God, and i am sad for them.
yet i do not judge. you believe what you want to believe, but remember that God said to love and accept. not to do what you’ve been doing.
Any sinner (gay or straight) who wants to draw near to the Father through Christ should be welcomed and discipled.
haha,I just laugh when I read your post anymore Dan…I love how everyone fights with each other.
Oh look, there is a bunch of people spouting bullsh*t left and right.
I think I need to go take another shower.
@JJ_Ames - So you are basically saying, we aren’t God’s creations anymore?
It is up the individual denomination to define their own doctrines and standards. If you don’t like it, go elsewhere. Simple.
@TheGreatBout - Everyone remembers the open arms and love lessons in Christianity. No one remembers the sacrifice, discipline, and obedience; nor the negative consequences of sin.
While I don’t think God encourages homosexuality, and even calls it a sin, I don’t think that putting people who happen to be gay in a church directory would be called sinful on his part. The 12 disciples were made up of an assortment of sinners, ranging from what we may call mild to pretty bad. But he didn’t say, “You collected unfair taxes and therefore can’t be a disciple.” No! Just because someone is gay does not mean they can’t be a Christian.
God would only accept it if it showed them going down on eachothers no no bits for all to see and enjoy.
puleez!
It is so nice to see a church not judging someone for there sexual preferance. If we are all born sinners then why does it matter what the ” sin” is?
god hates them damned homosexuals.
I think people need to go back to the original meaning of the church. It was intended as a community gathering of followers of God. If same sex couples are followers of God and not all about regulations and bullshit about looking good and fuck all like that, then why the hell should they not be featured in the “church directory”? Why the hell is this an issue?
Holy god. The mentality of the modern church boggles my mind. People are so concerned about getting back to the fundamentals of faith and shit like that but they’re not bothering to ACTUALLY DO IT. Like, dude, one of Jesus’ best friends was a fucking prostitute. One was a tax collector. Man, I somehow don’t think he’d have issues with a picture of a same sex couple in what is essentially an exclusive phone book.
Wow, that was ridiculously incoherent.
If they’re in the Lamb’s Book of Life they should be in a little church directory..
Of course compared to the Book of Life the directory is squatsquish..
So they shouldn’t make a big deal out of it..
I think God wouldn’t want any pictures in there, SINNERS!
Lol doesn’t god love everyone?
I have a friend who is christian and gay, him and his fiance go to church every Sunday. Not everyone excepts him, but they all believe in the same god. If they believe in the same god, go to the same church, what makes them any different from any straight man or woman in that church? They all believe and that should be all that matters.
I am an athiest, but if believing in something makes someone happy, then they should by all means go for it. That shouldn’t exclude anyone. I don’t believe in god, but my friends can believe in whatever they want. It shouldn’t be “tolerance of gay members”, it should be acceptance of all members.
They try to round up their members, and when people go there willingly, who’s to call them by their sexuality? It’s cruel, I couldn’t imagine how alienated the gay couples there feel in a place where they should be accepted. A christian is a person, not a straight person; we’re all people regardless of our sexuality.
“A Christian is a person who adheres to Christianity, a monotheistic
religion centered on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as
presented”
@herzog3000 - I’m just saying we’re all somewhere.
I think if there was a god he wouldn’t care. Love is love.
I think everyone does too much of God’s thinking upon themselves. No one can truly know what God believes or thinks and it would be arrogant to assume anyone could. God is supposed to be the final judge. Not the bully people presume to take up his name for. Can we get those people who think they know what Christ thinks and what God thinks institutionalized? Who are those so arrogant that they presume to know what God thinks? How deluded those people must be…
I don’t think God cares either way.
I would support Lesbians in my directory if they looked like Angelina and Jennifer together.
@JJ_Ames - What God originally created no longer exists – this is a fallen world. Because we’re now sinful by nature, it’s natural to do wrong – our essence is corrupted.
The usual model for considering God is that he is all-knowing and all-powerful. When God did create man, he had the foresight to forsee future problems and the power to account for those problems in his design.
It is also silly to arbitrarily attribute traits to “man’s fallen state.”
To say that homosexuality is natural and therefore good is a poor argument – there are natural impulses that we should and do resist.
Well, no.
My position that not only is homosexuality natural, it is innate and intrinsic– in the same sense that you may consider heterosexuality innate and intrinsic.
Not all natural impulses are bad impulses. Since you take this position, I ask to take the additional step in justifying how “homosexuality,” is a bad impulse.
Additionally, I would argue that all natural impulses serve a necessary purpose or are at worst, neutral. Only extreme instances or misapplications of natural impulses result in harm.
@MomGoneMadd -  Wow… agreed. Well said/put.
Do you think God would have approved of Manifest Destiny, the Crusades, or the Westboro Baptist Church?
i’m not pro- gay.
i’m not a hater.
i think – God would be against church directories if they are gonna cause this kind of strife.
*Hand to face*
Oh God. Not this again.
tough question.. I don’t know.. or could ever pretend to know what God thinks on church directories..
but i DO think that churches shouldn’t be breaking out in fights over anything..
It amazes me the claim that Homosexuality is a sin but general meanness of Republican-Christians is not.
The most blantant nastiness I’ve ever seen on this subject in one instance when a lesbian couple came to visit a church that I was a member of. They were there on my invite and were treated outright rude from nearly the moment they entered the building.
The minister even edited his sermon to (He gave what should’ve been the exact same sermon during the first service, they came during the second.) include several references to homosexuality being a “sin”.
I hadn’t figured these people would be so unchristian like before the invite or I never would’ve done so, but I’m far more careful these days about how I aproach the subject and with who.
It amazes me that none of the members understood why the couple wasn’t “open” enough to stay through the whole sermon. I gave several members a stirn talking to before I left.
@logicalemu - Right on!
I think people here care about it far more then God would… It’s sad that people don’t have better ways to spend their time.
Damn Christians are ignorant.
No clue.
Kind of creeps me out, I guess I’m not used to seeing pictures of gays with kids.
I’m atheist but I believe in gay rights because my friend is gay and has a boyfriend, so there for I think the church shouldn’t care.
@nidan - not all Republicans and Christians are like that.
@lovechartreuse - And that was a very enlightened, and tolerant thing to say.
@nidan - My above comment was sarcasm BTW!
@polishswede - Not all but a great many if not almost all.
And I did say “Republicans and Christians” I said “Republican Christians” Maybe I should’ve typed it out as “Republican-Christians” See my point?
@polishswede - Those first few words were supposed to read “And I did NOT say, ‘Republicans and Christians’ “
My bad!
@nidan - I obviously don’t care to be politically correct today, get over it. =]
“It amazes me the claim that Homosexuality is a sin but general meanness of Republican-Christians is not.”
Hypocrite much?
Gtfo.
@lovechartreuse - No, I’m not. But politically correct or not I’m right, and on both accounts. Get over it.
this makes me so mad!
Why is being gay wrong again?
@Dare2BDiferentt - I’m going to go with your answer! lol
@Olyachka - … how about we focus on real issues? Like the fact that people are living in tents because their homes got foreclosed?
Try telling that to Matthew Shepard’s mom.
@normality_dreamer - …You’re like a farmer dropping seed among the brainless chickens who will simply fight over it, JUST for the amusement of it all.
And you’ve only reacently realized this?
I don’t think God would give a shit…
@saintvi - AHAHAHA
@nidan - I don’t see your point either way because you’re generalizing. Not all Republican Christians (myself being one) feel that way. It’s like someone labeling something about all liberals, when it’s not even true.
@nidan - LOL You’re 1. wrong, 2. hilariously arrogant, and 3. an idiot. Get over it. =]
@polishswede - I think its funny how he’s getting on me for labeling as we speak.
@lovechartreuse - i know, right?
@MomGoneMadd - drinking and smoking aren’t sins – have you ever read the Bible? Any church throwing people out for drinking and smoking is stupid because Jesus drank and smoking was never forbidden. And as for porn, it depends on whether it’s known or not – if they choose to remain in sin they’re commanded by their own religious beliefs (as taught in the Bible) to cast the sinner out. If their sin isn’t known then they’ll be punished by God.
If Christians won’t stand for their beliefs what’s the point in having any?
@JJ_Ames - So basically you’re saying they can come back once they’ve decided to psychologically damage themselves by pretending to be straight just so your homophobic asses can feel more comfortable? Well if you’re going to be a bunch of pretentious assholes be prepared to kick out all the people who shave and eat shell fish as well. =]
@ThatSillyLittleGirl - you don’t immediately jump to casting out the sinners – there’s a procedure outlined in the Bible for how to deal with someone who has sinned. The point is for fellow believers to hold each other accountable and it isn’t about condemning the person but rather meant to protect them from God’s wrath. Even if Christians are forgiven the ultimate penalty for their sins there are still consequences for disobeying God. And from a cultural context, the early church wasn’t individualistic so allowing one member to sin risked bringing judgment against the whole church for not addressing that issue. The guidelines are very clear about how known sins are to be addressed – and what’s the point of having a faith if you don’t practice it?
If you care about someone and you see them doing something harmful to themselves wouldn’t you speak up?
@lovechartreuse - shaving and eating shell-fish aren’t against the Christian faith, Captain Sarcasm.
There’s a difference between not committing homosexual acts and pretending to be straight. Also, if they consider their faith important wouldn’t it be psychologically damaging to live against it? Your argument is both theologically and psychologically unsound.
As for me being “homophobic,” I’d say you’re ignorant and bigoted. You assume I hate when in fact my homosexual friends say I’m tolerant and respectful and they find that refreshing. I find it refreshing that although I express disagreement with their lifestyle they still show me respect and kindness. Disagreeing with how someone lives their life doesn’t mean you hate them – it can even be a sign you love them.
@CelestialTeapot - there’s nothing silly about attributing wrong behavior to a fallen state if that’s within the framework of one’s faith – and seeing as that couple was attending a “Christian” church, it applies to the beliefs they claim to hold.
God knowing we were going to screw up doesn’t mean He wanted it so much as He allowed it. Laying the blame for sin at God’s feet is ridiculous.
I’m glad you brought up the “innate and intrinsic” nature of heterosexuality. While heterosexual attraction is “natural” it also has unhealthy expressions that are either socially and/or theologically condemned. My original argument was against viewing natural as healthy/good – I don’t feel like you refuted that.
As for “
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all natural impulses serve a necessary purpose
or are at worst, neutral. Only extreme instances or misapplications of natural
impulses result in harm,” it would be awesome if such were the case. Many fights and psychological disorders originate in faulty impulses/instincts which can be important to survival but are triggered at inappropriate times. As humans, we have the ability to evaluate and guide our impulses – we can act against instinct when it serves our goals.
In regard to the positives and negatives of homosexuality, that’s difficult to assess. But in the terms of the faith those women and their church claim to uphold, they’re living in a manner that will bring judgment on them and their church for not opposing their sin.
@JJ_Ames - Aaaaand for some reason it won’t let me edit the processing error it made in the text.
@CelestialTeapot - not at all. I’ve been reading Dan for years now. I just like pointing it out.
I find it amusing each time.
@EarthsAzureLight - not in the slightest – although your response did make me chuckle. What I’m saying is that what we were intended for has been corrupted. Even the best of what we offer is often tainted by self-interest. We were created with free will which gave us the choice of following God’s will or our own – but we didn’t have a say in what the consequences were. The same applies to how we live our lives – we can live by God’s rules or our own but the consequences are His to make.
@JJ_Ames - ”Also, if they consider their faith important wouldn’t it be psychologically damaging to live against it?”
No actually. Its against my religion to eat beef but I don’t get torn down emotionally from eating a burger. Its also a preferred goal in my religion to be at peace all the time but that is not realistic and I don’t get psychological damage from ever feeling angry at something; its psychologically damaging to pretend otherwise. Its psychologically damaging to go against your human nature.
“Disagreeing with how someone lives their life doesn’t mean
you hate them – it can even be a sign you love them.”
So you’re saying that all those people who not only disagree with the lifestyle but force people to psychological trauma and a lot of the time suicide are just trying to show their love. LOL. Right.
Reality check needed.
@lovechartreuse - yes, actually. If you truly considered your belief system important you wouldn’t eat beef – you’d believe it was wrong. If you do what you believe to be wrong you’re a) a tortured hypocrite or b) someone who doesn’t actually believe what they’re saying.
I’m not sure where you’re getting your “data” on psychological damages but what you’re suggesting flies in the face of actual research within the field – there’s the reality check you requested. Further, your mention of suicide is inflammatory and inaccurate.
Who who’s forcing trauma on homosexuals? If they’re not interested in living according to Christianity they don’t have to. And if they choose to become Christians it was their choice to adhere to certain principles. Painting Christians as ignorant haters shows a lack of knowledge and blind prejudice – are you enjoying your use of hate speech?
I really enjoy your use of plugz -
This whole debacle would be much easier if Jesus said anything about gays. Which he did not. A couple of his disciples condemned them, and some rules in Leviticus outlawed the practice (but then again, those rules were ridiculous and also outlawed eating shellfish)…Seems plenty clear that we can’t infer God’s intentions, even if He exists.
-David
Of course He would.
I really don’t think any diety would give too much of a damn.
If every person who is “believed” to be guilty of committing a sin out of the church directories then it would be fair…… and the directories would be empty…..
@JJ_Ames - ”yes, actually. If you truly considered your belief system important you wouldn’t eat beef – you’d believe it was wrong. If you do what you believe to be wrong you’re a) a tortured hypocrite or b) someone who doesn’t actually believe what they’re saying.”
Actually I take my religion very seriously. But unlike Christianity my religion teaches me to think. And because of that I’m capable of realizing what is more important and even more so what is relevant. The reasons for my people to not eat beef have become irrelevant as that part of the culture has died out. Kind of like how its not acceptable for people to get on people based on their sexuality; Christians just haven’t gotten their reality check yet. =]
“I’m not sure where you’re getting your “data” on psychological damages but what you’re suggesting flies in the face of actual research within the field – there’s the reality check you requested. Further, your mention of suicide is inflammatory and inaccurate.”
Wow you’re ignorant. I actually get my knowledge from graduating as a double major, one of those majors being psychology. And how Christian of you. Denying anything that goes wrong is the result of your religion. LOL Naivety and ignorance at its finest.
“Who who’s forcing trauma on homosexuals? If they’re not interested in living according to Christianity they don’t have to. And if they choose to become Christians it was their choice to adhere to certain principles. Painting Christians as ignorant haters shows a lack of knowledge and blind prejudice – are you enjoying your use of hate speech?”
Well you seem to think homosexuality is a choice. It isn’t. So there goes all the refuting needed to be done here. =] God you fail. PS: Christians harass people constantly. That’s who. Don’t feign ignorance of your people’s failures.
I think I used to go to church with some gay people when I was a kid. They were church musicians but the Lord used them eventhough they were a hot hot dumpster mess in the end. I probably would not have had a hunger after the Lord if I had not been in church so much because of music that they played. They were some very gifted musicians and singers and God used them. I have mixed feelings about this issue. It is just a church directory. Does this mean that they are sitting on church boards or preaching the gospel and living that way. Is the pastor of the church still preaching on sin? If he is,then I don’t know if this directory is a reflection of the churches true beliefs. There are some crazy and messed up people in church and in church directories but did anybody say anything to those people as well? I wonder. I am not saying that I except homosexuality but I do know some very annointed people who struggle with this issue. I wouldn’t say they were not christian but that a little different……
No, I don’t think God would *want* anything. It’s hard to want when you don’t exist.
nope
@JJ_Ames - If God is omnipotent, then he designed us to do everything we have.
He could have given us free will but not given us a constant drive ot have sex. He could have given us a natural drive to help other people in danger or need, but he didn’t.
I don’t buy the argument that God giving us free will has led to circumstances that he can’t or won’t control because of a violition of free will. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, he could have seen the result of what we would decide to do and he could have changed it.
If God is omniscient and omnipotent, then this is EXACTLY what he wanted.
I seriously don’t think God, or the Church, would care.
@EarthsAzureLight - Sin, by definition, is an act against God’s will. We don’t have a constant drive for sex – it’s a controllable behavior. He didn’t say “thou shalt not eat” and He made provision for the fact that we couldn’t avoid sinning after the fall by sending His Son. What God designed was good – what we have become is not. If you designed a machine to help people and it was weaponized by another would that be your fault? And wouldn’t the machine’s original purpose still be corrupted?
The play between free will and predestination is difficult to discern but casting the blame on God for humanity’s fault simply because He allowed us to exist is unfair.
@lovechartreuse - assuming Christians don’t think is bigoted and irrational. You continue to spout hate-speech that proves your education in psychology was wasted because if you’d learned anything you’d know that a respect for differing beliefs is a core principle of the field. I, btw, am a doctoral student and practicing clinician in that field. Again you’ve made the assumption that I’m ignorant and uneducated.
You’re tactless and offensive. The fact that you keep harping against Christianity merely proves that you’re the very monster you claim others to be. Homosexuality isn’t a choice – but homosexual acts are. The Christian teaching that homosexuality is a sin doesn’t force anyone to change their beliefs or their lifestyle anymore than you believing I’m an asshole makes me punch babies. A silly analogy but I think you get the point.
Painting all Christians with the same brush is like claiming all African Americans are gangsters – stupid beyond words. And you, miss, are beyond words.
@JJ_Ames -
“You continue to spout hate-speech that
proves your education in psychology was wasted because if you’d learned
anything you’d know that a respect for differing beliefs is a core
principle of the field. I, btw, am a doctoral student and practicing
clinician in that field. Again you’ve made the assumption that I’m
ignorant and uneducated.”
Whatever makes you feel better, I just didn’t feel like being politically correct today. =] And when did I make any assumption? Oh right never.
“The Christian teaching that homosexuality is
a sin doesn’t force anyone to change their beliefs or their lifestyle
anymore than you believing I’m an asshole makes me punch babies.”
LOL Your naivety is cute. You clearly don’t read the news. The
headlines tend to be things along the lines of “School teacher fired
for trying to force Muslim student to convert to Christianity.” Didn’t
hear about that? LOL You should really crawl out from whatever rock
you’re living under. =]
@JJ_Ames - “We don’t have a constant drive for sex – it’s a controllable behavior.”
This is plain wrong actually. Just because we don’t have to indulge in it, doesn’t mean it’s not a biological drive – it is.
“If you designed a machine to help people and it was weaponized by another would that be your fault? And wouldn’t the machine’s original purpose still be corrupted?”
A human is not all powerful and not all seeing, this is the difference. God would know designing the machine that it would be corrupted, and that WOULD be his fault.
@lovechartreuse - logic and reason – you lack them.
@EarthsAzureLight - so He creates something with the ability to act against Him or to obey Him and prosper and it’s His fault that IT chose? Sin is a choice WE make. Why is His knowing so important? It was still our choice to act for or against Him – we chose punishment despite being warned.
What’s plain wrong about saying sex is controllable? It’s not like there aren’t people who die virgins. Unless you’re raped, you choose to have sex. We have a biological drive to eat but people are capable of starving themselves to death. You can live, happily, without sex. Sex isn’t a need – you will not die from a lack of sex.
@saintvi - @Power_Ranger_Freak - lol XD
@JJ_Ames - Clearly not if I showed you you were wrong. =] Thanks for trying.
“Sex isn’t a need – you will not die from a lack of sex.”
You’ll be healthier if you consider all aspects of your life however. Key problem with Christianity; focus too much on a physical entity being alive and never focusing on mental or psychological stress. Its why you’re slowly becoming obsolete. =]
maybe. i don’t think god would turn away any sinner, on the other hand, he may not want to broadcast it either but the only real fact I know is ” there is a God and its not me” idt any of us could really answer that.
@JJ_Ames - ”so He creates something with the ability to act against Him or to obey Him and prosper and it’s His fault that IT chose?”
If God is all knowing he would know what we will choose ahead of time, and in knowing that if he makes it so were in a position to choose “sinful” things that we are destined to choose the aftermath is indeed his fault. Which then goes on to say that God cannot be benevolent.
@lovechartreuse - the bible does talk about mental and psychological stress its basically all through it.
@bukeshow - You’re going to honestly give me such a bland comment like that? LOL Seriously? And what EXACTLY does the Bible say about that. Keep in mind, I have read the Bible several times. I want to know what exactly you’re talking about and what you make of it.
In short, give me a REAL comment.
@JJ_Ames - I’m not saying its a need. I’m saying God instilled us with the biological drive to have it. Meaning God made us desire it and want it on an unconscious level.
If it was simply against his will, wouldn’t he just make it so we didn’t have this drive?
He knew we would do this, so why give us that weakness?
Why sex instead of other sins? Why don’t we have a biological drive to kill? To lie? Both are advantagous at certain times.
My point is, he knew exactly what would happen, so it had to be in his plan.
@lovechartreuse - I’ve heard that ignorance is bliss – how are you finding it? You’ve never studied Christianity if you believe if focuses on the body and leaves the mind and psychological stress alone. It’s actually a rather rich text if you’ve studied psychology – I found it very rewarding to read after completing my Masters in Clinical Psych. Family Systems theory applied to King David’s family is a hoot.
If by “showed me wrong” you mean “proved my point by continuing in arrogant ignorance” then yes, you proved me very wrong.
@EarthsAzureLight - he didn’t give us that weakness. He wanted us to have sex and when we sinned that was corrupted and continues to be corrupted further by Satan – a being who wants nothing more than to see what God intended for our good and His glory corrupted.
We may not have a biological drive to kill or lie but you can certainly see that that hasn’t stopped humans from indulging in it quite a bit – that seems to speak to a fallen/broken nature. Why do we fight against each other when working together would produce greater results? We have more than enough resources at this point so warring and selfishness are stupid beyond words – but we live against logic!
Yes, He knew we were going to go against His will – or maybe He could see both futures and set plans for what He’d do in both scenarios. Let’s assume for a moment that He exists and the Bible is His word – does it matter if we argue with Him over who is to blame for sin? If He’s all-powerful He can simply say “It’s your fault” and that’s the way it will be – period. Moving past that scenario, regardless of whether we’d sinned or not God was going to win because He cannot act against Himself – He wouldn’t do something against His will. Hence, sin is not God’s fault beyond His desire to make something with the capability of loving or rejecting Him.
@JJ_Ames - I think that entire statement you just made is absolutely hysterical.
Listen kid, I’ve read the Bible. You would have learned that from the statement above yours. Here’s another tidbit. I’ve read it 8 times. In 3 different languages. Way to make yourself look ignorant.
@lovechartreuse - or that God loved us despite knowing we’d act against Him and in order to exercise His limitless love and mercy He didn’t forsake His creation but rather sacrificed for us in such a way as to fulfill but His need for Justice and Mercy.
@lovechartreuse - if you read a book and don’t get it then the point of reading it is lost. If you’ve read it eight times and still don’t get it you’re wasting your time. As for “kid,” I’m likely your senior in age and education so you can drop the patronizing attitude. Insulting me rather than refuting my claims just suggests to others that you have nothing important to say. You could learn a lot from EarthsAzureLight – the exchange between us has been one of ideas, not insults.
If I am ignorant of anything it is why you’re so hostile towards Christians, myself included. My original statement was that the homosexual lifestyle was inconsistent with Christian beliefs – and having read the Bible 8 times in 3 different languages, you should be well aware of this. Further, when you began to slander me I pointed out that your attacks were baseless as the applied to stereotypes rather than to people and yet you continued to spout ignorance of the same kind. If you’re purposefully making harsh statements just to goad me then congratulations – you’ll make a fine troll. If you were actually intending to refute anything I’ve said then please make an argument and stop flinging stereotypes that are below your level of education.
@JJ_Ames - /yawn.
I get the Bible, trust me. I just don’t agree with it because its illogical. But don’t respond if you’re gonna act like a pussy. =]
For the love of fuck. Some people have differently constructed families. Fucking deal with it. God, when will we stop assuming what God wants???? ONLY GOD KNOWS.
@HiROBii - Perhaps he did but only finished the second Adam half way through resulting in what is now known as a VaJayJay.
It wouldn’t be the first time God’s plan was half assed. Look at the frickin platypus.
@lovechartreuse - maybe you should REALLY read it
@lovechartreuse - i call your bullshit on that 8 times in three languages lol
Ha! I love the arguments. I love that religion which is meant to civilize the human race only brings out the savages in us.
@JJ_Ames - ”Why do we fight against each other when working together would produce greater results?”
Then why are you fighting to the death on this subject?
I’m not trying to pick a fight…just thought it was a bit hypocritical, I guess.
@bukeshow - So in your short you know you should never have spoken to me because you know you don’t know the Bible that well, but you assume that I haven’t read it because I’m an atheist. Thanks for stepping down in such a humiliating fashion for yourself. =]
@pocoemme - technically, savagery is a product of being human, not being religious. Religions become savage because they’re held by humans. As for why I’m “fighting,” I’d say I’m a proud fool. When I received a foolish response I should have just shut my stupid mouth. Who’s a greater fool – the fool or the person who argues with one?
The answer is simple: I’m a jackass.
@lovechartreuse - I have never meowed during this conversation, madam! As for “getting it” or even getting anywhere, I think we can both agree that despite all the arguing, neither of us has change the opinion of the other’s position – if anything we’re both further entrenched.
“Pussy” is a sexist term – kudos.
You’ve yet to back up your claims of ignorance on the part of Christians or the lack of logic within the Bible. Make an argument, don’t simply hurl insults.
On an entirely unrelated note, what was your other degree in?
People who commit adultery go to church regularly. Â It’s easy to see.
What’s the difference?
@JJ_Ames - Computer Engineering. And if your religion is so thought provoking you would have realized the vast amounts of contradictions within the holy book; atheists point it out constantly and Christians demonstrate it through hypocrisy. All you have to do is open your eyes. And I’m serious. Its that simple.
However, if you would like a really in depth commentary on why I despise Christianity, and I mean honestly truly want to know, click here. If you have any specific questions feel free to ask. =]
But here it’s pretty late so I’m heading to bed kiddo.
@lovechartreuse - Computer Engineering and Psychology seems like an odd combo – any reason? Are you working on the robots that’ll eventually replace us?
I’ve read my Holy Book cover to cover several times and I’ve yet to find a contradiction. I’ve seen a few poor arguments based on passages taken out of context or with disregard for the obvious reading. Assaults upon the Christian faith were taking place before Christ was crucified and yet the cause of Christ advances. Christians demonstrate hypocrisy in that they’re flawed people who errantly claim perfection when nothing like that is promised this side of death.
I will take a look at the link – you’ve got me curious. Enjoy your sleep.
Coming from a church, I know of the “oh no!” attitude when addressing same-sex couples. One of my close friends confessed to his attraction to people of the same sex as him, and the church instantly shunned him. I must say, however, that it is not the place of anyone within the church to exile another individual, unless for inappropriate behavior while within the church building. I agree completely with what someone said up top that if there be anything too physical within the church, by all means address the situation with the couple. However, to remove a couple from a church directory because of their sexual preference is ridiculous. If in the eyes of the church same-sex couples are sinful, then it would only be fair to remove every single sinful person in that directory from the pages (which would be everyone in that directory… those who have lied, cheated, stolen, coveted, etc). I’m pretty convinced we should leave God to His business and let people to theirs. If the church would stop finding faults with everyone around them, perhaps more people would be interested in attending. Just my opinion, though.
@lovechartreuse - checked the link – some of her complaints are legitimate, some of them aren’t, and some of them could just as easily be leveled at atheists. I’m afraid that her legitimate complaints have less to do with Biblical Christianity and more to do with Christians who are poor examples of the Christ they claim to serve. Labels like “Christian” and “atheist” serve to dehumanize – that tends to leave everyone as the loser.
@pocoemme - God doesn’t make mistakes.
I was taught God loves all people, no matter what. Why should their sexuality matter if they’re trying to raise their children right?
@lovechartreuse - i think jj_ames is smoking your ass how do you like that shit little momma
@JJ_Ames - man your smoking that broad…
@bukeshow - i didn’t even feel like messing with her. I get tired of people like that religion bashing all the time. I think their all blind.
Ehh. I think that the church deserves to be kicked out. According to the arbitrary set of rules that the Southern Baptist Convention or w/e set.
But I cheer on the church that got ejected. I think it’s the right way to go, to start the movement in churches. Of course if homosexuality is never accepted in most churches, that’s cool too, I suppose; you can’t force someone to break the rules that they believe right. But acceptance in other aspects of society hopefully emerge from this.
@lovechartreuse - Gee. Way to not stereotype, eh?
@bukeshow - Eh. Sometimes they have good points. Not her, though. This lady is just out to hate.
@Omelettes - But then, on the other hand, I’m not sure how much I agree with JJ’s first comment either.
The Theologian’s Cafe: trolling in a sea of trolls.
i think there’s a danger in casting someone out of a church, unless there’s a good reason to do so. if a church sends people away, where will they go? if anything, they will have no choice but to turn to someone who does not know Christ, who cannot share with them Christ’s love. in some cases, it can be even worse than that.
I think that God made us all, and he loves us all,Gay ,Striaght, Bisexual, Transgender. He made everyone different for a reason.
@JJ_Ames - Then as you state, he cannot be disappointed, since he knew the end result when he created us.
God would frown on the gay behavior of the couple. However, God would like to see others “loving their neighbor” regardless of that person’s sins. Think about the “don’t try to remove a plank from your brother’s eye when you have a plank in your own eye” or “he who is without sin, be the first to cast a stone” type of verses. God wants us to love and accept gay people while recognizing that the gay behavior is inherently wrong. God wills that we love others and God will do the judging of those people in the end.
Some ask, “how can you be gay, which is completely wrong, and still be a Christian?” But you could as the same thing by saing, “How can you get drunk on the weekends and call yourself a Christian” or “How can you lie and gossip all the time and call yourself a Christian.”
Hmm. if we don’t print them on the directory because they have “obviously” sinned, then none of us should be there.
@lovechartreuse - And you are retorting to name calling because you know you are wrong, and I am right. Thanks for actually proving it for me.
@lovechartreuse - I see a few others have shown you for the bigot you are too.
Nice!!! LOL!!!
@polishswede - I was raised in the church, in many churches through out the south, and I still deal with such people on a regular bases. They are there whether you want to believe they are or not. If you personally don’t feel that way then it’s probably aren’t a Republican-Christian.
@nidan - Whatever makes you feel better kid. =]
@Omelettes - Duh I’m stereotyping. That was the point.
@bukeshow - Was that entire thing supposed to be a sentence? And I’ve already won that argument. =] But thanks for being a fan. ;D
God has alot more to worry about than who goes into a church directory. If that sort of thing is such a big priority for christians, they need to take a step back and examine their ”faith”.
@JJ_Ames - ”Computer Engineering and Psychology seems
like an odd combo – any reason? Are you working on the robots that’ll
eventually replace us?”
LOL No no I’m actually working against human replacement when it comes to building machines. And I figured I would major in one thing I enjoy and have some experience in, and one that I enjoy that will make me more money to live off of. I bet you can guess which is which.
As for the link, it very much so explains why so many people feel such hatred towards Christians. While we all know that the real Christian faith isn’t reflected by the Christians today, we can’t help but notice how Christians tend to warp the Bible for their own means; with that kind of usage of the Bible one cannot help but assume your religion has evolved to be this horrible.
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” – Gandhi
@Saridactyl - hmm. i see your point, but christians are also allowed to believe that homosexuality is a sin. saying otherwise would be intolerant on YOUR part. with that said, a church directory wouldnt have pictures of people getting drunk, committing adultery, or gossipping, so why would pictures displaying homosexuality be ok? a sin is a sin, so i don’t think any of it should be broadcasted in a church’s bulletin.
but yes, as a christian i believe gays should be allowed to go to church, the same way other sinners like me are allowed to go.
please dont stereotype. :[
@lovechartreuse - Don’t call me kid, young lady.
@lovechartreuse - yes, psychology isn’t where the money is, regardless of what the media says.
I can understand being pissed at certain Christians – I’m a Christian and half the time I want to strangle my “brethren.” However, I also know some really awesome Christians so when “Christian” is used as a catch-all for slander I become angry in a way similar to atheists who are trodden down for their beliefs. Hopefully cooler heads and fuller hearts can assert themselves in both groups.
Here’s the deal … real Christianity does condone being gay. If you want to be gay do it in another religion who denies Christ .. like the Unitarian church or the Episcopals or some other crap churches like that. Why do people need to infiltrate a religion where it is wrong to be gay. Just find one that doesn’t care and go there. Now, should they be allowed to go to a church that believes it is wrong? Sure, but as Christians we are required to call our brothers and sisters out on unrepentant sin in their lives. everyone sins but if you don’t repent and turn away from it you can hardly be called a Christian since repentantce is required to show faith. I would allow a gay couple in our church, but once I heard a confession of faith I would be very clear that the behavior needs to stop or they will need to find a non-Bible-believing church. Same as if they were boy.girl and living together and sleeping together. Exactly the same thing I would say to them.
@lovechartreuse - I wasn’t saying you had to disagree with me. It’s just that stereotyping is generally considered bad form in debates. If you’re going to take the arrogant scholarly tone, don’t make arguments so riddled with logical fallacies yourself. Otherwise people are just going to see you as an ignorant loudmouth.
@Omelettes - You clearly missed the point of stereotyping. But I really don’t care to explain it to you. Especially if you don’t take the time to actually read any arguments anyone makes. =]
Thing is God gave us free agency. The ability to make our own decisions. In that people need to be more tolerant and say hey ive made my choice youre free to make yours. Also , personal opinion here, I think homosexuality comes natural to people. My uncle is gay and so is my brother. I dont think he would have made them with these feelings etc and then smacked them on the hand for being happy! But thats my opinion so I say yes…God would want them in his church list.
@Brian_Jeremiah - How about you don’t say anything at all and mind your business? =]
@Brian_Jeremiah - Jesus never said a thing about homosexuality. The only verses in the Bible that even mention homosexuality are in the Old Testament. I don’t see how rejecting outdated Hebrew legal codes (which in one of his epistles Paul specifically said did not apply to the gentiles) constitutes denying Christ.
In other words, you’re saying that anyone who does not subscribe to your church’s specific system of interpretation of and expansion on scripture as applicable to modern life, doesn’t count as a Christian.
I’m sorry, but I cannot acknowledge that. The Bible says that “We who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.” You can’t exclude those Christians who don’t see things your way.
@lovechartreuse - Really? I’m missing the point? Do you even know what the word “stereotyping” means?
Wikipedia (first two paragraphs):
“A stereotype is a type of logical oversimplification in which
all the members of a class or set are considered to be definable by an
easily distinguishable set of characteristics. The term is often used
with a negative connotation, as stereotypes can be used to deny
individuals respect or legitimacy based on their membership in a
particular group. In America, the term has long been associated with
the Civil Rights movement and is imbued with a semblance of racial
context.
Stereotypes often form the basis of prejudice
and are usually employed to explain real or imaginary differences due
to race, gender, religion, age, ethnicity, socio-economic class,
disability, and occupation, among the limitless groups one may be
identified with. A stereotype can be a conventional and oversimplified
conception, opinion, or image based on the belief that there are
attitudes, appearances, or behaviors shared by all members of a group.
Stereotypes are forms of social consensus rather than individual
judgments. Stereotypes are sometimes formed by a previous illusory correlation, a false association between two variables that are loosely correlated if correlated at all.”
The point is not to stereotype.
Now, here is the comment I was referring to: lovechartreuse: “Damn Christians are ignorant.”
I thought at first that you meant, perhaps, to say that only the Christians who deny gay rights are ignorant. Then I went and read more of your comments and realized that you really were expressing a universal (and ignorant) hatred toward all Christians for the attitudes of a select few.
In short, you would be doing yourself a service to go and educate yourself on debate etiquette before continuing.
@lovechartreuse - I’m sorry. I wasn’t aware that you owned TheTheologiansCafe’s blog.
In any case, at least he was contributing to the discussion rather than verbally attacking anyone claiming to be a Christian.
At the very least you can try to build arguments rather than to resort to the “shut up” line of rhetoric. You know, where you tell anyone who disagrees with you to shut up?
(Hint: That’s not good debating.)
He’ll let you if they are attractive lol.
I think (G/g)od(s) is/are fine with that. I think the best part is when the congregations break up into fights over whether or not it’s a good thing or a bad thing.
@Omelettes - I’m not going to read all of that. Just so you know. I stereotyped here because 1. I didn’t feel like being politically correct today (so basically laziness) and 2. I just don’t give a flying fuck about what any Christian has to say to me because in all (and I mean every single one) of my experiences a Christian has shown me that they are no better than the stereotypes we have of them. In a way I’m kind of not stereotyping, but stating a reality.
As for you, I really don’t care what you say. You clearly don’t… get it. I say things to make people think; clearly you’re not thinking. I highly doubt I need a lesson from someone of lower intelligence than me.
Have a nice night. =]
@lovechartreuse - I’m not even going to reply to this comment.
@Omelettes - You are replying to the comment. -. -” Dumbass.
@lovechartreuse - Oh. Was I? My mistake. I didn’t mean to…
.
Ladies and gentlemen, I hereby declare victory over the she-troll. Please, hold your applause.
Funny how no one is clapping. What a failure. /facepalm.
God made us, and we are in the directory at my church.
I’ve no time for churches that would be ashamed of us.
Who are we to know what God is thinking, But I would say he would prefer it to the hate that is being cast upon us for being gay.
I don’t participate in organized religion — I am certainly not a Christian — and thus I cannot make any presumptions as to what God would want. That isn’t really within my realm of judgement.
I can, however, look at that photograph and see how beautiful it is. I can look at that family and see how happy and healthy they all look, and I can only hope I will be so lucky in the future to have such a nice family. And then I can think about what the Bible says, about loving each and every human being as Jesus does, and I can pray that people will take that to heart.
If my family attended church, I would hope that we would be treated equally and respectfully. Ideally, it would be a non-issue, but we’re not quite at that point yet.
I used to attend that church. I have to say that I am disappointed in the SBC for their decision and their use of blanket statements in their rendering of the decision. (Frankly, I believe the executive committee’s mind was made up before they ever actually put it to vote.) I am also saddened for professors at Southwestern Seminary who now must pick up and move their families because of this decision. That–or face losing their jobs.
Such a disappointment, this one.