August 1, 2009
-
Dan and Feminism Part 3
It appears to me that the typical father will champion the ideals of feminism in his daughter in a better way than the typical feminist.
A father will raise his daughter to be independent and communicate to her that success in life is her responsibility. Men do not have special groups that look out for them so they have to fight through life and achieve success on their own merit.
A man will take his daughter fishing and he will tell her to bait her own hook. A father will rough house with his daughter in the same way he rough houses with his sons. In fact, take the mother out of the equation for even a short time and the girl will be playing with snakes in her back yard as the dad chuckles at the thought.
Your typical feminist communicates a message of victimhood. You ever see those signs up in a business that communicate victimhood? A sign will read “Women make 75% the money that a man makes for the same job.” Then the same sign will communicate it is a crime.
What does the sign suggest? It suggest that women are victims. It is my understanding that if you take away for pregnancy and time off, that women actually make 98% of what men do. But the real issue here is that the sign communicates to women that they are victims.
Feminist do this in every way. They suggest that women have to fight just to be treated equally. That is a stupid message. Instead, you should tell a woman she needs to get an education and work harder and she will make her way to the top. That is what a father would tell his daughter.
The biggest threat to the success of a little girl is not a man. The biggest threat to the success of a little girl is another woman and their message of being a victim.
Comments (91)
Wait.. am I first..
Oh yes I am! LOL..
Idk but.. I seen people do this on your posts so wth?
I even felt a bit excited.
I agree with your post though.
I actually agree with this 100%. My mom was not a feminist, and my dad has been my only parent since I was 12, well, until my stepmom three years ago, but he is still the main influence and she is not a feminist either. I like to think I am independent and outspoken because of him more than anything else and the combination of him and no “feminism” will play a big part in if I am/when I am successful.
Everybody just needs a strong male influence in their childhood! Oh, the two parent heterosexual family! Is there anything you can’t do?
you are so right!
I’ve never seen a sign like that in my life.
I agree with you, though.
I’ve always wondered about how the percentage of money a woman makes compared to a man was figured. And thought it probably did not take into consideration pregnancy and time off related to children.
I’ve thought the same thing. By constantly saying that women are as good as men and all that rot they are admitting that they think they aren’t. Have you ever seen a short guy that is constantly bragging about things he can do in sports and stuff? It’s because deep down he feals inferior. It’s so stupid. Stop talking about it and the problem goes away.
@one_eared_batman - That last sentence wasn’t directed at you btw.
Yep. Women are perceived as victims in so many different arenas. And, predictably, in sex. Because girls don’t WANT to have sex. The boys MAKE them. Eye roll.
I disagree with your idea that women see themselves as victims. It’s a fact, not victimization that women make less money than men and have a harder time getting to the top. There are plenty of women that have an education and work hard like a man and can’t get to the top. This is not because she’s a victim, but because those are the standards in our society. I am having a hard time articulating my thoughts. I’m trying to say that reality and facts do not equal being a victim. I hope that makes sense.
Depends on if the women see the sign and say “there is something I can do about this” and think of better school, education or fighting for something through signs, which gets you nowhere. Not all women are victims.
I hate feminism and everything it stands for. I am not a victim, I’m responsible for my own actions, and if I get paid less than someone it’s probably because they are a harder worker than I am. We don’t live in te 50′s anymore people… women are as equal as it gets.
@XDaemonessX - Me too. Let’s not forget that women generally take more time off to raise children than men do.
I wrote the longest comment I’ve ever written and it didn’t post.
i 100% agree with you.
It’s really a shame that women in our desire to be “just as” good/equal to men have
really cheapened ourselves by whining to get there.. You must be a great father to your daughter(s?)
Good post.
I agree with you. Women are victims only because other women set them up for failure.
Women are not victims unless they choose to be. In other words, women are only victims because other women tell them so.
Hey! Someone’s always gotta whine about something!
@gottobereal64 - yep, i agree.
good thought and I hope nowdays it’s true.
being one of the older broads here I have been a ‘first’ in a couple of different fields that were held by men (law enforcement, and paramedic). while I have noticed some things have changed, they have changed because we did have to fight so damn hard for it and did it lawsuit by lawsuit. you’re not old enough nor the right gender to appreciate that and I take that as a sign our fight was a good one and progress has been made.is it time to stop fighting and accept your message? I hope so.
GIRL POWER
God almighty, thank fuck there’s someone else with a sensible head on their shoulders on this planet. Kudos man.
Your point has a broader scope of application. The “I’m a victim” mentality is not an exclusively feminist fault. It’s the battle cry of our present day society. We are hearing it more and more from every creed of humanity and it has never helped us move forward in any sense.
Females are hot.
My mom has no post high school education and makes over 100,000 a year at her job. She makes more than a lot of guys (including my dad when he was at his highest pay rate). I think you wrongly describe feminism here. You are directing this post at a very specific feminist sect as opposed to all feminists (men are feminists too).
@weakerlink - You’re right about that mentality. But that kind of goes hand in hand with the theory that kids these days are part of the “give me” generation vice the, “I’ll work for it” generation.
Good post Dan… I’d love to see you do one about Racism/reverse racism.
I like your message about a strong connection between a father and a daughter. My sister and I were blessed with two strong and caring parents who modeled dedication and perseverance for us.
I never received any “victim message” from my mother.
I don’t totally agree with you on this one Dan. It’s important that women don’t grow up feeling helpless and victims to an unmoving social ladder when it comes to salary and success, but the reality is there is a disparity in how women’s hard work is interpreted in the work place compared to men’s. Women often aren’t regarded as being as intelligent or capable, and are paid and treated as such. Girls should be raised to be independent and work hard, but they ought to be aware that inherent in our culture are some glass ceilings and discrimination that still need to be fought against.
I agree with the idea that feminism promotes a victimized image that is unhealthy for women. However, I don’t gather that feminists are just fighting for an equality with men which they may already have. It was always my thought that feminists are also fighting to break away from stereotypical social standards placed upon women at birth. Among these standards are an objectifying, ideal beauty; a passive, “motherly” nature; and fragility. I don’t think the concept is completely about being better than or equal to men, but rather deviating from society’s idea of a woman.
But I ain’t no feminist, so I could be wrong and they could all just be big, whiny cry babies as you suggest.
I don’t agree with presenting women as victims, so on that point I concur. But I also don’t agree that is the message of feminism. I consider myself a feminist, and I am perfectly comfortable saying it.
It would be unrealistic to say that women have not had to fight harder to achieve things men already have — history makes it clear we have. We didn’t even get to vote in the U.S. until the 1920s, while men always had that right. I deal with sexist attitudes all the time that I do not see my male counterparts encountering. So while I agree with you that girls should be taught that they can achieve anything they want, and not to ever let anybody hold them back based on their gender, I do not agree that men and women face an even playing field. It’s better than it once was, but it’s not where it should be yet. If a father (or mother) doesn’t prepare a daughter for that reality, she will face a rude awakening in the real world.
I think snakes are pretty cool.
Women are paid less than men because they are more likely to work at safe, comfortable jobs. Men make more because they tend to be willing to work at uncomfortable, dangerous jobs (miners, construction workers, farmers, etc.). Since not many people want to work at those jobs, companies must pay more to get employees. It’s often the men who accept those jobs.
=]
It depends on the father. I’ve met many who baby their daughters and encourage them to be submissive.
Wow i really like this. I can apply it to my own life, it makes sense
Very true.
I disagree that girls need a strong male figure in order to be empowered. True feminism does not make victims of women, but empowers them to be strong, courageous, confident and to work hard for everything they get. As a single mom, I can assure you that my daughter does not feel like a victim of anything – she has poise, grace, strength, determination, smarts and confidence WITHOUT a man in her life treating her like a son. It’s from a mom who encourages her and doesn’t baby her, and telling her how great it is to be a strong woman who can do things. We don’t talk about being “victims” at all.
Pity parties are lame.
You aren’t teaching your daughter to be strong and independent in her own right. You’re teaching your daughter that to be a real person that people will respect, she has to act like a stereotypical man. You’re reinforcing the stereotypes: being strong, independent, outdoorsy, etc, are men things; being nurturing, submissive, cowardly, etc are women things.
I agree with you!
I’ve never looked at it that way, but I agree with you.
That really says something about the presence or lack of a good father figure in a girl’s life. I always thought the message of feminism coupled with the odd sense of “minority entitlement” was a dangerous thing for girls and women who got themselves tangled up in it. I never really took the time to think about the positive and opposite effect of a good father, though! I’ve always had that and my life, and like many people, never really attributed that to why there isn’t anything wrong. I guess that’s because we’re all so busy looking for what’s causing the problems so we can either fix them or complain about them more–rather than identifying the things that are keeping other problems at bay.
@shy_and_sad -
“It would be unrealistic to say that women
have not had to fight harder to achieve things men already have –
history makes it clear we have. We didn’t even get to vote in the U.S.
until the 1920s, while men always had that right. I deal with sexist
attitudes all the time that I do not see my male counterparts
encountering. So while I agree with you that girls should be taught
that they can achieve anything they want, and not to ever let anybody
hold them back based on their gender, I do not agree that men and women
face an even playing field. It’s better than it once was, but it’s not
where it should be yet. If a father (or mother) doesn’t prepare a
daughter for that reality, she will face a rude awakening in the real
world.
I think snakes are pretty cool.”
Did you ever study history from before 1800? I doubt it. Men fought and died for their freedom. Always had that right? Common men fought for hundreds of years to get the right to rule their own lives. All you feminists ever did was bitch at those men untill they handed it to you. Shut your ignorant mouth.
@John_of_the_bloomdocks - I’ll be happy to discuss this with you once you’ve taken your medication and stopped the voices.
@shy_and_sad - How clever. Rather than actually supporting your absurd claims you choose to personally attack me. I’ve never seen that online before.
No really, there’s nothing to talk about. You are simply wrong, any kindergarten education would probably mention George Washington and the Revolutionary war at least once.
I guess. lol
I think women do have a gap to overcome in some fields still. But I think you are right that individuals are responsible for striving for the best.
And nice Scientology advertisement.
Amen
that is not feminism
@John_of_the_bloomdocks - If you think it is “absurd” to suggest that women have a history of being not treated equally to men, then that’s fine. It’s your opinion, and that it is not remotely based on fact is fine. Your comment, however, was quite personal and nasty in nature, and I saw no need to engage in a discussion with somebody who lashed out at me so personally simply because I expressed an opinion you did not like. I did not direct my comment to you, and you saw fit to direct an extremely nasty remark to me apparently to attack me for not having your opinion. You got the answer your comment warranted.
Good post.
@John_of_the_bloomdocks - ”Shut your ignorant mouth” Is that really necessary? Because it makes you sound like an ass.
Hmmm…
@shy_and_sad - No. Its absurd of you to say women worked harder for their freedom than men did. Your opinion was simply the most ignorant thing I’ve seen in months. You have got to be kidding me, my opnion isn’t based on fact? You didn’t even get my opinion or your history right. Again, shut your ignorant mouth, and perhaps even research the American Revolution. You might be surprised, but we had an army of men who fought and died for the freedom we all share now.
My statements were addressing this line,
“It would be unrealistic to say that women
have not had to fight harder to achieve things men already have –
history makes it clear we have. We didn’t even get to vote in the U.S.
until the 1920s, while men always had that right.”
Men did not always have that right. They fought and died for that right for years. They fought and died again in the war of 1812 to keep that right. Your comment was not only ignorant and foolish, it was an insult to all of the men who fought and died to give anyone a right to vote in this country.
I’ve seen many men treat their daughters as if they were weak and couldn’t handle what their sons could. I’ve seen other men treat their daughters the way you’ve described, my own father included. I’ve also seen mothers treat their daughters both ways. I’m not sure it has to do with gender – some people treat women as victims and some people don’t.
I do agree that treating your daughter as a victim is a disservice, and a big one, but sometimes fathers are JUST as willing, sometimes more willing, to coddle/protect their daughters as the mothers are.
The greatest threat to feminist groups like NOW? Women’s equality.
True equality is not in their best interest. Hence the victim culture. The minute women start to feel like human beings is the very same minute NOW and their buddy organizations go bankrupt.
@logicalemu - exactly what i was gonna’ say. fuck. lol.
It all matters how confident and willing you are. If you think you should get paid just as much as the next Joe, then work harder dammit !
I really like this post. I’m not a fan of feminism. Also, I really relate with the part about fathers. I was raised alone by my dad and you are exactly right.
I disagree.
victimhood is, like most things, what you make it. many women ARE and have been and will be victims. that doesn’t mean that they should sit around and complain and whine about it and let it keep them from achieving everything they’re capable of. but the fact that discrimination and sexism exists, especially in the workplace, shouldn’t be ignored.
problems don’t go away by pretending they don’t exist.
I agree with “weakerlink”
Humans expect a perfect world. You long for everything to go smoothly. Why wouldn’t you? It’s perfectly natural. However, to state that women did not fight to become equal to men is an ignorant message. How else do you think women reached this point of equality? Certainly not by playing victims.
Also, my mother has been a much more dedicated parent to me, as well as the bread winner in my house. This message was a vast overgeneralization.
-tommypoo
@das_blumenkind - Agreed
I am anti-feminism.
Exactly.
much true here. but I think anyone’s biggest enemy is themselves
Sorry to break it to you Dan. Not all Fathers raise their daughters like that. Actually, I know very few who do or would.
As Weakerlink said, nearly everybody these days cries the “victim” card for something or other. Right now, you’ve cried the card for menkind, being a target of feminism. You’re no different.
Although I disagree with that particular position, I DO agree that feminism does sometimes lead to females pleading the victim. But that’s not the true point of feminism, or at least, what the ideal is supposed to be. It’s supposed to be self-empowerment (which your instructions suggested), but sometimes it gets skewed, like a lot of things.
Communism, anyone? XD
The mindset of the male population these days is drastically different from the days when feminism originated and coalesced into a real movement. From personal observation, guys pretty much tend to treat women as equals these days. *Almost*. Maybe it’s just me, but a large population still clings to a secret superiority complex, because it’s publically frowned upon to show it.
The same goes for women. Because of “our history” of gender repression, some women feel like they have a vendetta against men for keeping us down so long. So now *they* have a superiority complex, and yadda yadda yadda. The only difference is that women aren’t as persecuted for showing it.
I’m probably being redudant here and telling you things you already know, but it’s my point anyway.
Don’t be hypocritical, is all I’m saying. Today’s society says we’re basically all victims in some way or another.
To society, I say put on your big-girl panties and deal with it.
My Dad raised us SO WELL Dan you have no idea. Between him and me, he’s the more “victimized” feminist. I just always do what he told me I can do, which is anything I try hard at. He is the one bringing up statistics, telling me to be scared of confrontation or to walk alone at night. I think most if it’s just parenting, but the rest makes me angry. I think I’m a better feminist than he is because I don’t play the gender card!
I agree on your conclusion.
Good post!
By the way, historically one of the best times to be a woman was the mid to later Middle Ages, pre-Renaissance. Because women had respect, didn’t have to work for the most part, could in many professions if they wanted to (including business, e.g. brewing beer), often had economic charge over their estates if they were wealthy, and had great fashion. I just think it’s insulting to strong women to call them victims when they worked within their own context to establish their successes. Check out these strong women from the Middle Ages:
St. Joan of Arc
Christina of Markyate
St. Adelheid of Burgundy
Margery Kempe
Heloise
Hrosvit of Gandersheim
Eleanor of Aquitaine
@John_of_the_bloomdocks - Actually, all you have done is to ramble in an incoherent manner, completely mix up unrelated issues, and express a venom and hatred towards me for saying that women have been discriminated against based on their gender — an obvious and indisputable fact. Now you apparently are attempting to advance the point that men, like women, have a history of being discriminated against based on their gender, which is laughable at the very best. So whatever you thought you were accomplishing by unleashing your venomous tirade on me, all you DID accomplish was to demonstrate that you have deep and intense hatred towards women, you have the shakiest of understandings of the most basic historical facts, and you lack even a threshold understanding of what feminism is.
Why you chose to single me out for your venom, when I directed my comments to the owner of this blog, and not to you, is not clear, except of course that what I said must have hit a very deep nerve and had far too much of the ring of truth for your comfort level. It is obvious, however, that a woman of intelligence drives you to a near-hysterical panic, as you just demonstrated, which really does nothing except to reinforce my initial point.
You owe the owner of this blog an apology for your conduct here, and you and I are done here. I am all for having intelligent debates with well-informed people. I do not, however, have the time, patience, or interest to give somebody like you a feeling of credibility for your incoherent ramblings. Hate all you want. You have persuaded me of nothing except for the viability of my initial suggestion to you.
Although I find you to be an easily dismissed, bizarre creature, I have the greatest respect for the owner of this blog, and I will leave my comments there. I have no doubt that you will wish to beat your chest further with some more incoherent ramblings, both to give yourself a feeling of victory from having the last word, and to allow you to believe that you have defeated this oh-so-inferior female. I suppose, in the end, it’s all you have to cling to in your life, and far be it from me to take that away from you. Get your last little word. I can assure you, it will change nothing that I’ve said.
wtf ? seriosly how do yu get that is fair for women to be paid 83 cents to a mans 100 ? hmm how is that fair ?? men take the same time off as women and i dont noe 1 women who has gotten pregnant every single year ? wtf this post is saying that women try to play the vicitim when there not playing ! ughh see i bet yur a man
Good job implying that men make better parents than women, douche.
Awesome post! I always thought there was something a bit off about modern feminism, and you put the spotlight right on the problem! It not empowerment, it teaches victimization!
@John_of_the_bloomdocks - Wow, this is so off-base, I don’t know where to start. So, before 1800, these “common men” were fighting for their freedom – from who? Other men. That were in power. Just like… oh, right, for the entire history of Western civilization – men have always been in power. These “common men” you speak of fought to rule their own lives – and the lives of their wives, daughters, and all the other women (and minorities) they could lay their hands on. She mentioned voting – men have always had the right to vote. At some points it was only landed elite men, at some points it’s only the dictator, at some points it’s only White men, but until, like shy_and_sad said, the 20th century, women have not been able to vote in the West. That’s what she’s talking about. Likewise, whatever the differences among socioeconomic classes, men have always had privileges over women in every sense (and continue to do so).
indeed
@elliottwrites - And none of the Men she bitches at about how they couldn’t vote could then. And for the historic record, men could not always vote. There have been Queens who ruled countries, and empires. My Irish ancestors, both men and women both fought and died for their freedom under Queen Elizabeth.
Let me guess, your a woman studies major? Because you’ve obviously had the worst history teachers anyone’s had, and that’s generally where you find them.
“Likewise, whatever the differences among
socioeconomic classes, men have always had privileges over women in
every sense (and continue to do so).”
Like how you can hit us, kick us in our genitals, and whatever other kind of assault you can think of, but if we strike back we end up in prison? Or how when a couple splits up the mother almost always gets the children?
Ever notice how women can get a few years of house arrest for a crime that would put a man in prison for years? There was a case recently wherein a woman/teacher was convicted of raping a male student. She was sentenced to only 3 years of house arrest.
Ever heard of “The draft.” Sure we arent having one now, but if we did, my name and the name of every other male over 18 years old would be on it. How many women were sent against their will into WWII? How about Korea? Or Vietnaum?
Oh. But working women were discriminated against in their nice, safe, warm offices, and that’s somehow worse.
Also, you have clearly not understood what my point was. Most men historically did not have any right to vote. Just about everywhere that common man has achieved this right he has had to endure a long bloody war. The point I disagreed with shy_and_sad about was not that women have had it hard, but that men haven’t. Men have fought harder for their freedom, and made greater sacrifices for it than women ever have.
And yes the ruling class was usually controlled by men, but to simply say that because .0001 percent or less of men were in control all men were better off simply will not hold up in any real debate. The common man was forced to work to feed their kings and nobles, forced to die on the battle field defending and expanding his power. The same was true under female queens.
So when you say “men have always had privileges over women in every sense (and continue to do so).” I can only respond with, “shut your ignorant mouth.”
@shy_and_sad - In relation to your last comment. You either cannot read, or cannot comprehend a simple post. You said that men “could always vote” I pointed out that you were full of horse shit. You can’t handle this so now you’re changing the story altogether.
“You owe the owner of this blog an apology
for your conduct here, and you and I are done here. I am all for having
intelligent debates with well-informed people.”
You don’t even know basic American history. For you to imply that I am not “well-informed” is laughable at best. Seriously, change your tampon, go back to kindergarten, and learn all about how no Americans used to vote.
“Although I find you to be an easily
dismissed, bizarre creature, I have the greatest respect for the owner
of this blog, and I will leave my comments there. I have no doubt that
you will wish to beat your chest further with some more incoherent
ramblings, both to give yourself a feeling of victory from having the
last word, and to allow you to believe that you have defeated this
oh-so-inferior female. I suppose, in the end, it’s all you have to
cling to in your life, and far be it from me to take that away from
you. Get your last little word. I can assure you, it will change
nothing that I’ve said.”
Wow. You start out with a statement that “men could always vote.” and then once I’ve dismissed your rant for the BS that it is, you state that I’m easily dismissed? Perhaps you might come up with some sort of dismissal? No, insulting me does not count.
And where did I ever even imply that females were inferior? You are simply making the assumption that I am sexist based on the fact that I corrected your history. I am not sexist. But I do not tolerate people spouting none-sense about men in general.
No matter how much you dress up your response, there really is no getting around the fact that you are wrong, and all you can do is throw insults at me like a second grader, regardless of how eloquently you have word them.
“It is obvious, however, that a woman of
intelligence drives you to a near-hysterical panic, as you just
demonstrated, which really does nothing except to reinforce my initial
point. “
There are several points I must make about this one.
A) Intelligent people, regardless of gender, could not simply overlook the entire revolutionary war and argue that men have always voted.
B) Intelligent women can argue for a point they make without simply resorting to name calling.
C) I have at no point had any sort of panic or fit, I have simply informed you that you are an ignorant person who should keep her mouth shut.
It would seem, based upon the number of insults you have thrown at me, that perhaps it is you who is in a panic.
Being a woman who has self-taught herself or atleast, has been taught most things by her mother…I can’t say that I FULLY agree. Tho, I do agree. Granted, my pole was first baited by my grandpa.
His message tho, instead, was to find a good man to take care of me and to never work a day in my life. My mom, on the other hand, being a divorcee, made it more than clear I should never full with a man and work my tail off to make all my own dreams come true. I decided to try both out. Ha.
This is a wonderful post. Thanks so much for writing it! —Amanda
That’s brilliant.
I totally agree!
I completely agree!
I’m amazed. I agree, and thoroughly admired your bravery for daring to say this, and I was expecting you to get lambasted with knee-jerk abuse. However, all your lady readers are more enlightened than I gave them credit for.
with the exception of shy_and_sad
I’ve seen signs like that around colleges.
= |
@RdKingClassic03 - lol
You do have a point, but not all fathers are like that. My father taught me that a woman’s place is in the kitchen. lol
You are right, the feminist viewpoint does portray women as victims.. which is inherently self deprecative, thats why i stopped taking women’s studies, it was turning me into a whiney bitch.
I agree that woman had to fight a lot in the past for equal status with men. But now I look at woman and I think that you are right. I know someone who turned down a district manager position b/c she didnt want to move b/c of her kids. A lot of times woman are not as vocal in standing up for themselves as men, I once asked my boss for a raise (to go with a status change) and he was impressed that I had even bothered to ask. A lot of woman havent advanced b/c they havent been willing to make the sacrafices at work that men have.
Snort…… I’m the one who took the dd fishing, taught her to bait her own hook, play with frogs & bugs, & catch snakes, I tell her to get a good education, & never be dependent on anyone to survive.
“It is my understanding that if you take away for pregnancy and time off, that women actually make 98% of what men do.”
What about the women who aren’t getting pregnant? And why is making 98% of what men make considered good enough?