January 29, 2010
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Pelvic Exam Without Consent
I was just reading an article that mentioned the practice of allowing medical students to give patients gynecological exams without their knowledge during surgery.
Apparently it is a common practice in Canada to bring in medical students to give them a little practice with the gynecological exams while women are having unrelated surgeries. The thinking is that women would not consent to be checked by a medical student so they are just practicing while the women are out during surgery without the knowledge of the women. Here is the link: Link
Do you think it is unethical to give a woman a gynecological exam without her knowledge?
Comments (136)
Yes.
Yes, they should know.
Definitely.
It’s unethical. I hope that never happens to me.
I think that is sexual assault.
Don’t they sign a form for that kind of thing?
Yes! What if they break something?!
Er … FUCK yes! Talk about unethical.. sue them!
Hell yes it’s unethical! That is such a violation!
Yes, obviously, I don’t see how you could argue otherwise.
Yes, I think it’s wrong for them to do that. Even here in the US with the all inclusive paperwork you sign on entering a hospital for surgery, you allow medical students to be part of your health care process when in the hospital and the statements on the sign-in paperwork are so broad that they could easily do something like that legally here as well. If it made the news here people would be really upset with it though.
Definitely unethical, and I agree with @MagisterTom - that it would constitute a sexual assault.
I need to know so that I can say, “FUCK NO.”
If you’re going to look at my “bits” you need permission! UGH.
- Kunoichi
Well DUH!!!!
That’s legal? Lol.
Thats what Gov controlled healthcare will get you too!
Absolutely yes!
If you don’t have a right to decide what medical procedures you endure then what the hell other rights can we possibly have?
A thousand times YES! I’d like a say in who sees my girly bits, thank you!
Yes. Even the thought process behind why they do that is not good.
@UnworthyofHisgrace - Totally irrelevant.
Yes, that is sexual assault, and it should be prosecuted.
Yes.
Highly HIGHLY unethical.
That’s just wrong.
Is there even a question whether or not its ethical? Of course its not.
@UnworthyofHisgrace - Not necessarily. There are cases of doctors committing crimes against patients in America, too.
Well that’s awkward.
I always get asked by my gyno right before my regular appointment if it’s okay if one of the medical students tag along for observation.I always says yes. I don’t know why. I guess I figure if I’m in that embarrassing situation already, SOMEone might as well get some good out of it, right?
Uh that is seriously wrong!!!
Sexual Assault even…!
Yes.Definitely.
@UnworthyofHisgrace - Right, because private health insurance companies would NEVER violate anyone’s rights.
Most definitely YES!!!
I do that that is VERY unethical, but it sure is a good idea!
@UnworthyofHisgrace - Can’t deny that!
Wow, that’s lose your license unethical. What were they thinking?
what the hell. of course, it’s unethical.
I would file a lawsuit against them, especially if my surgery was for an unrelated situation.
Yes.
@UnworthyofHisgrace - Nope – in the US you sign off on all of that anyway, it could easily happen here. I just refuse to allow students to help if I’m having surgery, ha.
I’m pretty sure that this happens in the US, too. You sign away SO much when you sign a surgical consent form, including a part that allows medical students to examine, operate, and do whatever exams they feel “necessary” while you’re under. Regardless, this is why I don’t consent to student assistance during surgeries – well that, and I don’t trust ‘em. Let ‘em practice on each other.
Yes!!!! I would be furious if someone did this to me during my surgery. >_<
@whitetrashpoet - Thats true, but you know students have to start somewhere, they should DEFINITELY have to have consent first though.
@UnworthyofHisgrace - Oh definitely they should have explicit consent, but I’m sure a good medical lawyer could prove the patient was at fault for blazing through a consent form. But my major basis about students is at my old job I worked with senior veterinary students, and veterinary schools are MUCH more particular than medical schools (esp. in my area, one of the top vet schools in the nation) and HOLY CRAP they botch surgeries left and right. Sure, most of the time the patients live, but I would not tolerate their lack of skill. I’m cool with residents, but not students. If other people consent, cool for them, but I’m paranoid about surgery enough as it is.
Yes it’s unethical. That’s just so, so, so wrong.
That is infuriating. Not only because it is beyond sexual assault and a violation of someone’s body, but an unexperienced med student (or anyone, really) would not know if they were hurting the person.
If anyone ever does this to me, I will personally make sure they no longer have said reproductive organs. How I will go about doing that will be figured out at the time.
Definitely.
That would be a resounding yes!
@whitetrashpoet - I have a 25 year old daughter that lost her right leg 3 1/2 years ago and has had problem with pain due to complications. Oct 19th she had another surgery to cut and smooth the bone better and with the disease in her leg a vascular surgeon had to oversee the surgery. He had student following him around because it was a medical school and they were learning from the best. I don’t know if they were in the surgery or not but they were there when she was being prepped for surgery. I know surgery on a limb isn’t the same as what this post is talking about but when you are treated in a university hospital because you don’t have insurance I guess you are open to be used for medical learning for students, but not what Dan is talking about here though without consent.
Yes. Nobody enters the secret garden without my explicit, spoken permission.
Yes very unethical
the students should practice on each other and volunteers instead!
I see that this controversy originated in Calgary. Had it been here where I am, in Toronto, and I was a woman, I wouldn’t be so mush worried about what they might see or touch, as what they might steal.
yes, its totally wrong!
I am all for “students” or whatever, but ask me in advance, and make sure I am conscious!
Dan, this is a realllllly stupid question.
@UnworthyofHisgrace - Agreed.
@tsh44 - It is extremely unfortunate that people would do this. What your saying is true, we almost always sign a release especially in a teaching hospital. Not saying I agree with gyno exams of women who are under anesthesia but med students do need practice and without allowing them to learn we would never have any new DR.s
Yes, wrong and unethical.
Yes it is unethical. I would be livid if I found out someone ever did that to me.
Yes it is unethical and isn’t it also illegal.
That’s actually kind of scary. As someone who has been sexually assaulted, this would freak me out if I ever found out it happened to me.
@MagisterTom - I agree with you. It’s horrible they would do this to women.
Part of an episode of Strong Medicine dealt with this. Dr. Delgado said to a group of first years that they cant do it without permission but one of them said Dr. Other (can remember the name) said they could & he acted like it was fine. So when Dr. Other had surgery, Dr. Delgado let the first years give him a prostate check & he hit the ceiling! LOL
Well, when I had a hysterectomy done, a few years back, I had med students come in when I was in surgery. I knew about it only afterwards. I was more nervous about the surgery, that thinking if these students being there was ethical.
HELL YES!
~V
OMG wow, totally unethical
hahahahaha
That is totally fucked up.
Yikes!
i want to know who is poking at my “down stairs” at all times. if i do not consent, there will be no poking.
that’s more like sexual abuse!
Read this on Feministing.com
It is definitely unethical and I’d consider it sexual assault.
Yes, it’s a huge invasion of privacy!
Only the medical ‘professionals’ involved would say “no” I think, unless of course, it happened to them or their wife, mother or daughter.
If that happened (or happens…yikes) to me, I wouldn’t consider that ANY different than being raped.
That is beyond unethical. *shudder*
@Shinbi_Belldandy - OMG…. that part about the Strong Medicine episode made me crack up.
Of course it’s unethical. If they aer in a teaching hospital, they need to be telling the patients that this goes on and make sure the patient consents.
I’d be so mad!
I’d be so mad!
That’s fucked up.
I don’t want random people in my VAGINA while I’m SLEEPING!
that’s horrifying!
@UnworthyofHisgrace - what a stupid comment. It has nothing to do with our healthcare
I can’t imagine anyone would find this ethical, including those who perform it, so much as they do it out of sheer convenience. Very, very unethical. No contest.
@steph843 - ROFL! Maybe…maybe not!
@steph843 - It was an off the cuff comment to rile folks up…and I guess it worked on you, guess you didn’t see my other comments huh? Just go for the knee jerk reaction ones lol
Yes, definitely.
@UnworthyofHisgrace - well whenever Canada and healthcare enter the same sentence, all I hear is people blaming the evils of “socialized medicine” and I get sick of reading it. If it was so bad, I certainly wouldn’t elect to work in the Canadian healthcare system.
that is so wrong on so many levels.
i was born in canada. my dad was doing a project there for a year. 4th child. 12 year gap between me and my oldest brother. my mom said it was like taking a giant leap backwards having me there.. she doesn’t recommend it.
It’s unethical.
@steph843 -Ahhhhhh! Now I see, stepped RIGHT on your toes. Sorry! Just a side note though, if its so good, why do people come from there to the U S for healthcare a lot….or so I’ve heard. I can only go by what I hear on the news, I am a long way from Canada.
I don’t mean any disrespect really, I just don’t think Gov is the best handler of healthcare, thats all.
Yes. If they won’t agree to it when they’re conscious then it shouldn’t be okay to do it when they’re out.
hmm, just a little. :-/
holy FUCK. that is so wrong.
I think the women have spoken here pretty clearly. Seems a resounding ‘yes’ to me.
@XxskinnyxxhippoxX - The point I think that was being made that you replied to was that govt. healthcare is far more likely to commit these kinds of violations because there is not as much accountability. The fact that crimes occur in other systems does not alter that fact. The difference here is that while we have a recourse and would almost certainly see justice done, when one uses a government entity to oppose a govenment entity, you are far less likely to see favorable results. I am not even saying you can’t see favorable results but the tendancy for government bias is far greater.
ummm… hell yeah.
I don’t want some random person prying into my personal space without me knowing it, and DEFINITELY if they are not my doctor.
that’s sexual assault…
@MagisterTom - I 2nd this.
Seriously, did we even need another reason to hate Canada?
Should you even have to ask that question?
HELL YES it’s unethical.
I foresee lawsuits. Lots and lots of lawsuits.
@ShimmerBodyCream - just another thing in the list… they keep dumping their trash over here too! Martin Short, Bryan Adams, Steve Martin, Celine Dion, and the list goes on….
I also have to wonder why all these sick fucks are giving eProps to the idea of kids pokin around in unconscious women in the name of “scientific learning”…
YES.
YES! Pervs
HELL YES.
I the articles the author says “I had done this too, but it had never occured to me that it might be unethical.” Seriously?
That’s absolutely NOT ok. I had a med student OBSERVE during one of my deliveries, and even that had to be ok’d by me.
Yes,it is unethical….Patient’s right to informed consent.
That’s what we did when I was in medical school, yet we ONLY did it if we were already performing some sort of gynecological surgery and were already in that region. Nonetheless, I can’t say that I agree with it. There are LOTS of programs around the US now that are connected with medical schools where men and women are interviewed and hired to actually have the job of teaching and allowing med students to perform pelvic, rectal, and breast exams on them. It is a truly a part-time job for them and it is such a benefit for us. Not only do we correctly learn how to perform those types of exams, but there are no questions of ethics in this situation. Both parties have fully consented to the exams. Now THAT, I agree with.
they’ll prolly be selling tickets to hobos so they can come watch, next time
Eww, that’s creepy.
Didn’t the fact that they had to “hide” the process enough clue that it’s not right?!!!! Disgusting!
That’s wrong. I better not find out I’m gettin any gyno exam during any kind of surgery.
obviously.
“I did it without asking because I knew if I asked you’d say no.” in other words, I don’t care what you want, I only care what you say or don’t say, so shh.
duh.
Absolutely! Wow!
Yes! Offer to pay the patient to let students learn how to do the exam.
Unethical is an understatement.
I had an old lady once say,”no, man is going to smear my Pap.”
another said,”Doc, you’re going where no man has gone in 80yrs.” lol
Completely unethical. I consider it to be just like rape. And, a man can’t knock a woman out so that he can have sex with her if he doesn’t think she is going to do it willingly, and then claim that she was unconscious so it isn’t the same thing as rape. If that were the case, the date rape drug would not be illegal and the men who use it on women and rape them would never be convicted of rape.
The thinking that is used to justify this is ridiculous. It is not even close to ethical. It just says that the women, if given a choice, are not likely to agree. So, they just don’t give the women a choice and do it anyway. It would definitely deter me from ever having surgery, even if I needed it to save my life. I would always wonder after that what happened while I was out.
I think that people need to start suing over this. At least, then, maybe it will get the point across that this is unacceptable behavior and faulty logic, and perhaps then it won’t be so “common,” if people are afraid of losing their medical license or getting kicked out of med school.
I realize that the medical students need their practice for things like this, but that is not a good reason to purposely do this without the patient’s consent just because you figure its more likely that the patient will refuse. How disgusting.
Uh yeah…I would be pissed!
Yes, absolutely. Unethical doesn’t even begin to cover it. It is sexual assault.
Yeah. I’d say so. Of course if they found anything, then the “without your knowledge” part really wouldn’t be true anymore after that.
um yeah! when i had my hand surgery i have to sign a consent to have someone in the room to watch the surgery. i think they should make you sign a consent and then do it if the person doesnt care.
It is terribly unethical. I am amazed that they would even consider such a thing. How are we supposed to trust doctors who do such things, or allow such things?
Why don’t they give some free exams for something useful, like free x-rays and stuff? If the students need practice, maybe they should do what beauty schools do and offer discounts or free services, knowing that it is a student (supervised, I assume) who will be doing the exam?
Why don’t the students practice on each other? Or get models, like the dummies used to practice CPR?
Probably…but I can’t say I’d care much. Hey man, free gyno exam and I don’t have to be conscious to deal with someone probing around down there? Count me in.
That could have been a much more graphic answer.
Uhm, yes, unethical. That’s the stupidest, lame-ass reason for not asking the women, too.
And I would not object to a student doing my exam WITH MY PERMISSION, as long as it was double-checked later by a certified doctor.
Yes, it’s very unethical. My doctors always ask my permission before they bring in a med student for anything( I have a “special” kind of heart murmur, and I think its great that I am helping some young doctors to learn). I definitly wouldn’t anyone doing an exam with out my permission though.
unethical ! i would be suing real fast !
Unethical- they should at least do a debriefing or something. =
That’s scary. I consider that a parallel of rape.
Rape of your free will and right to say no.
uh, unequivocally yes
It is very unethical and should never take place.
Absolutely! Disrespectful and unethical!
Socialized medicine is full of this crap!
Barry says we should strive to make our healthcare system more like the Canadians.
A damn mess! Of COURSE it’s unethical! It’s disgusting!
Apparently it is a common practice in Canada to bring in medical students to give them a little practice with the gynecological exams while women are having unrelated surgeries. The thinking is that women would not consent to be checked by a medical student so they are just practicing while the women are out during surgery without the knowledge of the women.
Well, all you ninnies who think socialized medicine would be wonderful, have you learned something? Everything has a price, financial or ethical.
@droptop11 - Canada has socialized medicine, they *can’t* sue.
That’s pretty scary. It’s more than just an invasion of privacy. It’s a question of ethics that has far ranging implications. It also reveals a disdainful mentality among medical personnel toward patients… which, I don’t doubt, is the result of the “medical factory” inherent in socialized health care. People are not guinea pigs. Nor are they slabs of meat. They have the right to be informed of the proposed procedures by their doctors and the final say in what treatments they receive. A number of women might well consider it a good bargain to receive additional attention of this sort in the process of a surgery. But they must be asked first.
Yes! That’s an outrage! How dare someone do that without consent!
That is so freaking wrong. I would say it’s sexual assault. I don’t want anyone in my private area without my consent.
YES.
They should sue.