March 30, 2007
-
The Power of Prayer
What is being called “the largest study of its kind,” a study tracked how prayer impacted the recovery rate of heart bypass surgery. The research suggested that prayer had no impact on the recovery of heart bypass surgery patients.
The study suggested that patients that knew they were being prayed for had a higher risk of complication. The study followed approximately 1,800 patients at six medical centers.
Dr. Harold G. Koenig, director of the Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health at the Duke University Medical Center didn’t believe the study proved anything. He said science “is not designed to study the supernatural.” Here is the link: Link
Can science study the supernatural?
Comments (104)
a better question would have begun with the word “should”
Seems pointless to me.
wow, I don’t think that science can really study the supernatural. Because once they’ve figured it out, it’s not supernatural any more…
*HUGS*
Don’t know why not. Anything can be proven, if given the time and tools.
mmm I don’t think science can figure out the supernatural. That is why it is supernatural. One must experience it for oneself personally not try to put it in a test tube or petri dish.
why the hell not. they think they can study global warming!
“why would God change his plans for a particular person just because they’re in a research study?”
That about says it all
-shrugs-
why the hell not. they think they can study global warming!
Posted 3/30/2007 8:48 AM by droptop11
I agree. Those stupid science people think they are studying global warming! Psh, I laugh at them for thinking they could study and track weather patterns and climate change! Hah! Everybody knows nobody can do that!
Anyway. So does this mean people are going to stop praying for people, seeing as it obviously does not help them in any way, and in fact increases their chances of complications?
Or maybe God just didn’t like those specific thousands of patients?
“why would God change his plans for a particular person just because they’re in a research study?”
That about says it all
Posted 3/30/2007 8:50 AM by trunthepaige
It sure does. Maybe God is trying to fake us out. You know, pretend he doesn’t exist, so when we all loose faith, he can jump out from behind the bush and shout ‘Hah!’.
I think it can, and should. People always want to know how things occur…it’s part of human nature.
i think science can observe the supernatural, but i don’t think their conclusions are necessarily going to be accurate. who can really say what God will and will not do? by the way… was the study on people that were being prayed for, or on people that spent time in prayer?
It doesn’t matter what results may occur, the fact is: when it comes to matters of belief and faith…people will believe what they want.
I think it’s a great idea. Because once science takes over, they won’t be supernatural anymore.
I don’t think science can study the supernatural.
Science and the supernatural don’t mix.
No.
I don’t like prayer being called supernatural.
That just seems wrong.
Yes.
You could have a million people pray for you and still have complications…if it’s your time…it’s your time. You could have one person pray for you and be fine.. God’s plan isn’t determined by how many people pray for you. That’s not what prayer is about.
NO
Depends on the science
I think that it would be difficult with methods that are available now, but perhaps someday it would be possible. There are things that have been revealed by science that heretofore were thought to be supernatural phenonena.
well, it CAN..
i’d hardly call that a scientific study. Science must be empirical, and i think this is pushing the limits.
religion always finds a way around studies that prove them wrong, anyway!
to quote wikipedia, “A central concept in science and the scientific menthod is that all evidence must be empirical, or empirically based, that is, dependent on evidence or consequences that are OBSERVABLE by the senses.”
I think it depends on what kind of hospitals and what kind of people. If its people who dont believe in god then im not sure “praying” to a god who you dont believe in would work, would it?
Also, what about all the evidence that it has worked? All the stories of epople having a disease and then the next day being completely healed? Are those miracles or just medical mishaps?
Daniel (doubledb)
Of course science can study the supernatural.
In case some folks haven’t been following history much, pretty much everything was considered “supernatural” until someone figured it out. If science didn’t study the supernatural, we’d still be popping holes in our skulls to release the bad spirits.
Science can study the supernatural – yes, why not. However, science will never be able to either prove or disprove faith.
It CAN study it. What the results are, however, is another story.
We are told to pray without ceasing. That is so that we talk with God who wants a relationship with us. What He DOES is up to Him. We aren’t controlling God with our prayers.
Yeah, and I’m sure God is up there all bummed out now because everyone thinks he doesn’t exist because he didn’t participate in a study.
Maybe so, but you can’t really prove anything with it.
i think it may be kind of a stupid thing to do
no, it cant, thats why its supernatural, its beyond our full understanding
Prayer would help a person deal with suffering and loss, not become a medical miracle.
Science can be used to prove or disprove anything, and so can statistics.
Study it? Sure. Find an answer? I highly doubt it.
No.
It seems to me the only reason some want to study it is to disprove it. I’m not sure science really can study it right now. I think that many “supernatural” things are natural, but not open to the scientific “knowledge” we have. Many things science puts out there as truth are only theories – darn good theories and well-thought most of the time, but theories nonetheless.
I think that some people place too much faith in science and others too little. I think the truth is that science and the supernatural can and should enhance the knowledge of one another. We just aren’t there yet because too many are too closed-minded.
Science can’t study things that don’t exist…..so, no.
the supernatural doesn’t exist. it’s all science; just sometimes science we can’t yet understand.
seems just pretty stupid
Nope. Stupid to even try.
All science is, is a method of observation.
All the supernatural is, is anything which suspends “natural” laws (i.e. people walking through walls or coming back from the dead). The fact is, even the supernatural is technically natural, there’s no magic about it, it’s just operating on planes of physics that are beyond our comprehension.
Therefore, you can use science to study the supernatural.
If the scientific method had been around in Jesus’ time, and one of his disciples had been an amateur scientist, they could have used the scientific method to study Jesus’ healing. He could have recorded data on his method, his actions, whether he touched the person or simply spoke to them or (once) smeared spit on them… could have made hypotheses about how Jesus would heal the next guy, experimented… Doesn’t mean he would ever understand how Jesus did it, but he could have studied it at least.
And, incidentally, for the example you cited to have been a proper example, the people shouldn’t have known they were being prayed for. Otherwise, you’ll never know if all you’re studying is the placebo effect.
i dont think so…
I’m curious about the details of this study and would love to read the whole study. As for the supernatural aspect of it, I dont think God likes to be put in a box, not that I am saying he would spite those who are sick. And sometimes God just lets these things happen. Just because we have a God that CAN heal the sick, doesn’t mean he WILL heal the sick.
A friend of mine had sever allergies to almost every type of food (fruit, dairy, grains). She had dealt with this for several years, but it was a big burden on her. She and several of her friends fasted and prayed for a week over this for healing. At the end of the week she was able to eat every kind of food created.
Bottom line, God wants us to believe in him through faith, not through proof.
NOPE! Cause god doesn’t exist and whatever lolololololololol
I’m so mature.
Isn’t science the study of the NATURAL world? I don’t think that scientific methods could work with something that is outside the natural, observable, testable world.
Of course science can study the supernatural.
In case some folks haven’t been following history much, pretty much everything was considered “supernatural” until someone figured it out. If science didn’t study the supernatural, we’d still be popping holes in our skulls to release the bad spirits.
Posted 3/30/2007 9:33 AM by esch99
I concur.
No. Science can study the visible effects of what is believed to be supernatural. As far as studying prayer, how specific are they getting here? An insane number of people prayer in tragic circumstances. Does God listen to all prayers just the same? To be scientific, you can’t generalize prayer and say you studied prayer.
Absolutely not… science is designed to observe and study the natural world, regardless of what the yahoos said on wikipedia… maybe I wrote that definition on wikipedia… hee hee hee
Answer this: Is the only truth scientific truth?
Hah, no… can science believe in God as I believe in him? There is no place for science in the Bible or prayer.
Hah, no… can science believe in God as I believe in him? There is no place for science in the Bible or prayer.
Posted 3/30/2007 11:52 AM by Far_Skies
No offense, Far_Skies, but speaking as a Christian, that last statement makes me shudder.
They did a similar study about 10 years ago, if I remember correctly. Except it was a double-blind study and they did it with women with difficult pregnancies. The researchers reported results that prayer actually did work and there were no placebo effects because the women and their doctors did not know that they were being prayed for/thought of (it is a double-blind study, after all). Study design is of great importance.
Some of the greatest pioneers of science were committed Christians. Ever hear of Johannes Kepler? He’s the one who coined the phrase describing science as, “Thinking God’s thoughts after Him.” Science and faith are not necessarily polar opposites, yet science cannot conclusively provide the final answer for metaphysical questions. Science is a tool provided by God for man to engage the physical universe, it is not a replacement for God.
I have heard of other studies where the patients were not told if they were being prayed for, and the ones that were healed better and/or faster than the ones that weren’t. I don’t know if science can acurately study stuff like this or not.
No
Science is not the perfect tool for studying the supernatural because it depends on certain things being repeatable. Supernatural occurrences don’t repeat themselves with any regularity or else they wouldn’t be miraculous; they’d be the norm.
Just because science can’t prove something, that doesn’t mean it’s necessarily false. It just shows the limits of science.
We can’t scientifically prove who killed JFK (please put aside all conspiracy theories and whatnot for the sake of argument; any murderer who was never discovered would do), but that doesn’t mean he didn’t die.
And reducing prayer to asking a genie to make one well is a bad call.
People’s prayers are so often self-centered. Not that it’s wrong to pray for someone to get better, but the motives often bother me. And the fact that other things aren’t prayed for that are more important.
Science can observe results in the real world. If prayer did indeed have an impact on the health of hospital patients, then you would be able to see a statistically significant difference. If there is no difference, chances are that the “supernatural” effects are not actually happening.
the real problem with this is that G-d does as He wills. He may answer yes to a prayer or He may answer no. If he often answers no, this does not make Him less powerful. It only makes Him a bit less predictable. (And G-d was never meant to be predictable)
He’s just whiney ’cause he got pwn’d by science.
I think this is an example of why you shouldn’t try to use science to prove the supernatural. As I remember this experiment actually came about because someone tried to prove that prayer had positive results for people.
I don’t think you can apply science to Christianity any more in the type of study than you could someone who claimed to be psychic. There are some things are that true, something that are false, and some things mankind in its current state cannot even begin to understand.
Funny thing about studies. you can find a study to “PROVE” just about anything
I’m sure there is a study that shows people who’ve been prayed for, improving their health as well.
I’d like to read the book The Men Who Stare at Goats by Jon Ronson. It’s about a true government program to harness the supernatural.
Science has its limitations on studying the supernatural. By very definition, the supernatural is something we cannot describe/quantitate with science today. 500 years from now – we may be able to do more, know more and have a better understanding of the “natural” world around us but we’ll still be far from understanding everything…
No
Who would even want a God who would change the fate of one person over another just because someone else prayed for him or her. It implies that if no one knew I was hurt or sick and didn’t pray for me then God would ignore my need over the need of someone who got the prayer. What a sucky God that would be!
“why would God change his plans for a particular person just because they’re in a research study?”
Exactly.
Not only that, but the study itself, as described by the article, sounds very flawed in how it was attempting to measure the affectiveness of prayer. The study was based on “particular” patients. Which doesn’t sound very random to me, and is necessary for an accurate study.
let’s think about the term “supernatural” that means more tahn natural, or above natural right? and science studies the natural world right? so, logically, science cannot study the supernatural
all the study proves is that God doesn’t fit in a box, and there’s no point trying to fit Him in one
Of course. Maybe then they could figure it out, right?
Science studies effects, end results, that sort of thing
prayer deals with causes
and God’s will is not always that people will be healed…Paul had his “thorn in teh flesh” God’s ways are not our ways, His idea of success is not ours…He is concerned with spiritual healing over physical, because the physical is temporary
No.
The basis of science is that it cannot study the supernatural because the supernatural cannot be measured or observed. We learned this in biology this year and I really don’t feel like explaining it.
It’s depending of the will of the person… not the prayer, not god… If the person can handle it and survives that’s great… but if he’s not… then we blame god. That’s life…
It’s depending of the will of the person… not the prayer, not god… If the person can handle it and survives that’s great… but if he’s not… then we blame god. That’s life…
Science is designed to explain what can be seen in the senses. Now in this case, patients who heal faster have noticeable results. SO, you can’t use science to say “there is a God” in fact (And a lot of scientists don’t like this) you can’t even use science to explain the beginning of the world/origins, but You can you science to see results, so I think that this is legitimately a scientific study.
only if they’re basing it on the spiritual
Hmm. Perhaps God doesn’t like being prayed to for something serious. Kind of like when people get mad when you tell them something they already know?
I do not believe this study at all. It is a known fact when prayer is involved the patient has a more positive attitude which helps in the recovery process. Who are these “researchers”. The article does not say who funded this “research”. As far as I am concerned this study is BS.
There are some things in this world that we’re just not meant or expected to understand, at least right now.
God says not to test Him. Of course the results are going to be like that. Besides, I have personally seen a myriad of miracles in my short life. Ever heard of Brother Andrew? Read a biography about him and see if prayer really works.
It can study it, but I’m not so sure that it can draw any valid conclusions.
Of course not. Classic science vs. nature. Anyone read Frankenstien?
sience can help explain a lot of things but can only go so far, for some things can’t be explained with a scale and beaker. When it comes to things like prayer its the beleif of the person recaiving the prayer and theyr mental attitude to where if they truelly beleive the prayer is working but what theyr doing is telling their mind its working so the brain sends messages out helping the body heal. Or your saying stupid prayer and the brain doesnt help. Of course theyrs exceptions. So in some cases yes
no.
I think it’s silly to treat prayer, and spiritual matters in general, as if they were laws of physics. You can’t put God in a box like that.
Prayer is not about getting your way, it is communication with divinity, whether you live or die, prayer is not wasted time.
crazy crazy. So basically they were looking for miracles? thats odd. Did anyone ever think that maybe people getting better was a miracle, and it not just being supernatural.
Wow. Richard Dawkins and Francis Collins are debating that question on NPR this week. If science is meant to study empirical elements then I would have to say no.
There are far too many variables from the theological side that were not taken into account. E.G. According to Scripture, if you pray for selfish reasons, your prayer is less likely to be answered. It seems to me that being more concerned about the results of an experiment than about people’s health is definitely a selfish reason to turn to prayer.
And where’s the control group? People who we knew about in the cardiac ward but who weren’t being prayed for? And what conceivable selfless motive would someone have to pray for one person’s health but not another person’s?
Fundamentally flawed.
it can claim so.
scientists can spend their time studying the supernatural if they wish. and perhaps they will be able to explain some things that were once believed to be supernatural. I think that would be a good thing.
but science simply can’t explain everything. and that’s ok with me too.
Prayer is not supernatural. Prayer is conversing with God. Prayer is the one time we can pour our hearts out in entirety because God already knows what we want to say. When we might put on shows for the rest of the world, prayer is when we can be honest with ourselves and God. God listens, he answers in his time and in ways we never thought of. Prayer is powerful.
Science can’t explain the supernatural. Think of it this way. God said that the grass is to be green during this season and brown during this season. Science comes and explains why that is, BUT, it is because God said it is.
hey … how is going? haven’t spoke to you for a while
What is the point of this study other than to say “HA. Your religion is FAKE.”?
The supernatural, by definition, transcends nature. That being said, I don’t think the study is completely useless.
Considering the fact that science is defined as “the observation, identification, desciption, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of natural phenomena,” and the supernatural pertains to things outside the natural realm, I would say no, science cannot study the supernatural. Unless there is a “superscience” out there.
On the other hand, science can study the results of the supernatural, most of which are natural (e.g. healings, and other “natural” — or not-so-natural — “phenomena”).
the supernatural cannot be studied, it can only be reported from a case to case basis. I mean, take the parting of the Red Sea for instance, or even the reported healings of Jesus and the apostles… but then we’ve got 2,000 years of in between which leads us to where the Western world and their naturalism has pretty much decided that the supernatural is just a con-game for the religious kooks. I’d be a kook, too, if it would heal my grandma of her clumsiness or the strains and broken bones that ensue.
science cantprove nor disprove God. a scientific experiment, bydefinition seeks to prove something is or is not true by producing an experiment that is ‘reproducible’ and observable. It cant test historical fact as it cant be reproduced. This does not mean that God is not real, however. Science also cannot prove nor disprove the existence of Hitler. Historical fact requires eye witness testimony to deem an event valid. Christ, and His death and ressurection on the cross cannot be tested by the scientific method, they must be tested by the historical method. Over 500 witnesses saw Christ alive after He was crucified and laid in the grave for 3 days. Only the power of His ressurection can adequately explain the change in His own disciples. On the eve of His death all 12 of His disciples left Him…Peter even denied that he even knew Jesus 3 times. Yet it is historical fact that all but John died a martyr’s death in the name of Christ. The only plausible explanation for this complete and radical transformation of their behavior is that they saw Christ raised from the dead- with the holes in His hands and side as the Bible describes.
This, and all events in the Bible can only be tested by the historical accounts of those who witnessed them.
They could if they want to but, I think it will be hard to prove any thing.
GHOSTBUSTERS!!! NAH-NA-NA-HA WH-WHO YOU GONNA CALL?
’nuff said….