May 31, 2009
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Abortion Doctor Killed
Abortion doctor George Tiller was shot and killed this morning at his church. Here is the link: Link
It is on the front page of almost all media sources. I am sure we will see an endless supply of pro-choice people pointing out how pro-lifers are inconsistent and not really pro-life. Pro-lifers will be forced to denounce the killing.
Let me see if I can get the numbers correct.
Pro-life killings: 3
Pro-choice killings: 50 million and counting
Is it consistent to focus on the death of one and ignore the death of millions?
Comments (405)
Poor guy.
both are wrong
I take it then that you condone his murder.
wait, to prevent the loss of life… we kill people.
that makes sense
This is so controversial. You’re going to get flamed for this.
I think it is hypocritical to claim to cherish life then take one and claim it righteous and just.
“Pro-lifers will be forced to denounce the killing.” No they’ll totally be behind this John Wilkes Booth type character. Killing someone who is 67 at Church is a million times worse than removing but not killing a somewhat developed fetus that is not alive. Say what you will but you won’t change MY mind that abortion is not murder. So by those numbers the count is 50 million to 3 million, either way a race to the most deaths is probably not a bragging right.
@storiesandsinker - agreed xD
Murdering pro-choice people is obviously not the answer. It’s only going to cause more conflict. But as to your question, no it’s not consistant. It’s ridiculous, in fact.
@PSUnited1 - That was the prefect example of what I was saying
We are going to be hearing about this for a very long time. Half of this nation is pro life and 3 of them went nuts and killed. Still we will all be branded for it.
Lolz, karma prevails.
Yeah, because we haven’t been ignoring real genocides for years either.
@Pieces_of_a_Melody - Exactly.
@trunthepaige - If someone judges an entire group of people based on what one person (or a few people) did, that person’s judgement is so idiotic and superficial that it shouldn’t matter anyways.
Go check out George Tiller’s website. Killing him was wrong, but what he did to almost-full-term babies was thousands of times worse. He was one of the only abortion doctors in the country that performed abortions as late-term as he did.
Radical religious folk killing others to express their opinions? This has been going on forever, man. -.-
yes.
@trunthepaige - We are going to be hearing about this for a very long time. Half of this nation is pro live and 3 of them went nuts and killed. Still we will all be branded for it.
Some of you do deserve to be branded for it.
Deluded, mentally sick triggermen don’t get these ideas on their own. Rhetoric of “murder abortion doctors” or abortion being “genocide” creates an environment where such murders are thinkable and such acts commendable.
A few days ago, some fucknut wrote this entry: In Defense of Others: Kill Abortionists
Yes.
Okay. What is the fucking aim of murdering abortion doctors? The pro-life peeps aren’t so fucking retarded as to think that they can murder all abortion doctors and bomb all abortion physcians.
This isn’t a game of tit for tat– This life for that life. It’s not a war. It’s not a genocide. Any who paint it as such is too fucking deluded in their murky righteousness to fully understand political solvency.
This is a debate and a controversy to be carried out in the public square. It is something solved at the ballot box and in the courts.
If anything, these disturbed pro-life murderers must realize that they’re doing their side a disservice– by turning public opinion, and refocusing the debate, they’re losing.
@CelestialTeapot - Actually if any significant percentage of pro lifers believed that killing abortionists was the right thing to do. The abortionists would all be dead. No pro life means just that. The fact that killing them all would work, is just not considered an option. Its hypocritical and we are not hypocrites. Look at the numbers we are more that half of this nation
Dan, I think you’re an asshole.
Abortion is terrible, whether you look at it in a religious sense, or just a moral sense. He didnt deserve to die, but at the same time im not crying about it.
this world is corrupt.
RIP
Murder is never acceptable.
Do you have some sort of weekly quota for offended unsubs?
@trunthepaige - Read the fucking comment before responding.
My criticism is that some of the pro-life side use highly charged rhetoric that intentionally frames the debate as one of “murder,” and “genocide.” There are stupid fucks who even (serious or not) call for the murder of “abortionists.” This sort of semantics create environments that nurture mentally-disturbed folks to become your triggermen and your bombers.
murder is not the answer.
Murer is wrong in both cases but you’re exactly right. It’s twisted and very one sided for them to focus on the one person who was killed.
but of course.
There is nothing wrong with the deaths of an unborn child. The death the person who actually aborted all those children is far more shocking.
Let’s look at the facts:
1) baby could be next Hilter
2) baby dies for our sins like Jesus Christ did. The sins being lust and pre-marital sex of course. OH and not wanting to wear a condom.
3) baby is result of rape which makes the baby RESPONSIBLE. The baby is a monster.
4) baby might make you fat
5) baby not human
6) because baby chose to be created out of sex regardless of your ‘poor’ financial circumstance
Need I continue?
@CelestialTeapot - Now that was as full of it and vulgar as I have ever seen you be. I think I will just ignore it, as you are not normally that much of a dip shit
@trunthepaige - she’s riding the dipshit express train.
Abortion is legal, murder is not. The doctor was doing his job.
its just sad really…
@Dare2BDiferentt - LOL LOL LOL. I love karma. It’s just incredible in so many ways. Some day, all of my enemies will be shot in their place of worship.
*the previous statement was sarcasm, you douchebag trolls.
Already the Christian Defense Coalition and former Operation Rescue spokesman Patrick Mahoney have condemned the murder. I expect, though, that as usual these denunciations will be underreported, and pro-choices will then criticize the pro-life movement for not doing enough to denounce the murders.
Pft abortion isn’t murder. Murdering doctors in the U.S. is illegal; aborting cells, embryos, and some fetuses is fine. I disapprove of killing actual people, not stuff that might turn into people with some help.
It’s how our laws, our courts and our media have focused for the past thirty years, so I’d say it’s pretty consistent.
@CelestialTeapot - Well, actually, this particular doctor was one of the relatively few in America who do
late-term abortions. You know, the kind that even a lot of pro-choice people find unsettling?
Wow, that’s so stupid but the Pro-life people feel that it’s worth it because the way they see it, is that If I take out one life, that will prevent the death of maybe 25 “babies”. But I don’t think it works like that because then they’re gonna get rid of the replacement, and it becomes this never ending cycle that makes them no better than the doctor.
I always appreciate your blogs. Giving people something to think about.
On topic, that guy didn’t deserve to be killed for that. I was taught that two wrongs don’t make a right.
@CelestialTeapot - Amen!
I am personally pro-life, but politically pro-choice. In other words, I would never, for the mere convenience of it, have an abortion myself. On the other hand, I will never, ever vote for pro-life legislation or a passionately pro-life candidate, because I flatly refuse to tell another woman what she can and cannot do where her own life and her own body are concerned–and in the case of a woman needing a therapeutic abortion to save her own life, I refuse to risk the possibility that I may be condemning a woman to die by supporting said legislation. The decision to abort or not is between a woman, God, and her doctor. I have NO RIGHT to get involved in such a private, personal decision. To do so is to force my own morality down someone else’s throat regarding a topic about which there doesn’t even BEGIN to be a universally-accepted opinion about if it’s right or wrong. That universally-accepted belief is what separates abortion from the more traditional definition of murder, people–all but the craziest people pretty much universally agree that killing an already-born individual is wrong in all but the craziest, most dire of circumstances. Abortion, on the other hand? Hell, we can’t even agree on when life begins, if the life of the pregnant woman or the fetus is more important, if it depends on which pregnant woman we’re talking about or not, if the circumstances leading to the pregnancy should be factored in or not, if the health or viability or gestational age of the fetus should be considered, or anything else.
I say if you’re against abortion, then DON’T HAVE ONE. Leave those who are just doing the best they can in a bad situation the hell alone. As for the murderers who perpetrated this crime, I hope they pay dearly for it.
Agree with abortion or not, it isn’t right to kill someone who is doing their job. If there weren’t legal abortions people would get them illegally. Killing that man is wrong any way you look at it. No unborns will be saved from his death, patients will just go see another doctor. No justice was served, now there’s just a more tension between pro-lifers and pro-choicers.
killing abortion doctors and bombing their clinics is the same as terrorism. these people are doing a job that would be done in a much less safe way if they didn’t do it. the pro-choice/pro-life argument is pointless, because if a girl wants to have an abortion, she’s going to have it. whether a doctor is doing it or not.
you might say that she deserves whatever horrible things could happen to her from having an unsafe abortion, but in my mind, that makes you worse than anyone who would have one.
but i don’t expect to change anyone’s mind or even have much of an effect. if someone believes that killing a doctor is right, then i have to pity that person for their completely screwed and horrible thought process.
doesn’t pro life mean that everyone deserves to live?
i think you would go to hell for murdering in someone in church way before you would go to hell for not bringing an innocent child into a world like this one.
It’s not inconsistent when you realize that the aborted embryos are not human life… They’re potential human life. If you’re against wasting potential human life, you better not use the pill, condoms, jack off, have sex when your wife isn’t ovulating, etc.
if everybody tried to take justice into their own hands we’d all be dead by now. an eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind and that whole thing.
your numbers are accurate..
we live in a sad world.
@I_Am_Twilight - I agree with you. Whoever shot him wasn’t the brightest bulb in the dark closet. Obviously this can be looked at as an act of ‘passion’ and not of logic. Murdering a murderer isn’t justified.
@Beautiful_Disaster_74 - Oh. But not the death penalty, right? We’ll just put them in a nice cell for twenty years or so with other people with common interests, and that’ll count as justice.
@trunthepaige - I think it’d be a fair statement so say many pro-lifers are for the death penalty, does this strike you as inconsistent? What about euthenasia?
@EarthsAzureLight - Innocent life vs murders. as someone who is anti death penalty I still do not see the conflict. Many pro choicers are also pro death penalty. The two are separate issues and a false comparison
That is so very sad…
@XxRainyxMondayxX - I take it, then, that you would apply that same statement to the death of, say, Hitler?
@Omelettes - Actually, I do think that except in the cases of the most heinous crimes, we should opt for life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. Not because I think the death penalty is wrong–I don’t. In fact, I support the judicious use of the death penalty for the same reason I support the judicious use of corporal punishment: Just like a kid who knows he’s gonna get his butt beaten for doing something really out-of-line, a person who commits a heinous crime knows they’re going to get a needle in the arm or a ride on the lightning courtesy of Old Sparky as a result of their actions. In choosing to do the crime, you are choosing the punishment, and the fact that the punishment is death doesn’t change that fact.
That said, I think that for most people, being imprisoned for fifty or sixty years is a lot more misery-making than a swift death. Sometimes you punish someone more by NOT executing them. It’s totally dependent on the individual and their particular crime, and also whether they need to be made an example. In this case, personally, I’d be in favor of the death penalty just to serve as a warning to those who have contemplated similar actions. In other murder cases, I’ve felt differently. It’s all situational.
Let’s see. We have the life of a man who is established in society. Someone who has likes and dislikes. Someone with a family, maybe even a family of his own. Someone with friends and other communal ties. Someone with a job and a person who contributes to his country.
And then we have underdeveloped babies who haven’t even breathed yet.
Hmm, this is a hard decision.
@musicmom60 - But that was HIS choice and no one, NO ONE has the right to take his life based on a choice that he made. What he did in this life can ONLY BE judged by God!
@Beautiful_Disaster_74 - Interesting.
@nkleyva - Very true.
@Beautiful_Disaster_74 - I am personally pro-life, but politically pro-choice. In other words, I would never, for the mere convenience of it, have an abortion myself. On the other hand, I will never, ever vote for pro-life legislation or a passionately pro-life candidate, because I flatly refuse to tell another woman what she can and cannot do where her own life and her own body are concerned
Finally…someone who I can relate to! Thank you.
Death of one HUMAN, versus death of several million CLUMPS OF TISSUE.
Yeah, I’d say the human is more important.
But hey, if you just want to talk about killing, then stop eating hamburgers. I guarantee you every American has killed more by eating meat than by having or performing abortions.
The irony is that the doctor was pregnant.
@la_faerie_joyeuse - Really? I’m so not making the connection here.
@trunthepaige - Not particularly. If you say you are pro-LIFE, and as many say they find life to be “precious” then it would stand that you find all life precious. I would find it consistent if someone was against any authorized killings, including those of which I listed above.
The reason pro choicers are in general apathetic or support of the death penalty is not all human life is treated as equal in many of their eyes, also leading to the conclusion that Euthenasia is acceptable. Where as the pro-life premise is that all life is precious and equal is the inconsistency. If a pro life person said that they are against abortion and for both euthenasia and the death penalty, they have then stated that a criminal’s life and that of someone who wishes to end their life, is less important, or their life is less precious, than a person with a blank slate.
@nkleyva - Eating meat is killing innocent animals. Just like abortion is killing innocent fetuses. Personally, I don’t think either one has rights, but that’s just me.
@la_faerie_joyeuse - That’s the point I’ve always made, but it usually falls on deaf ears, that a fetus does not have human rights.
@EarthsAzureLight - What’s interesting is that most pro-lifers are actually pro-war, but anti-euthenasia. How can one support war, but condemn an elderly dying man if he chooses to end his pain with dignity?
@EarthsAzureLight - and here you would be totally disagreed with by any and every pro life pro death penally advocate. You are imposing you philosophy on them, calling it the one and only. Then judging them by it. Duh they fail by that standard so shocking. And very closed minded
@trunthepaige - What philosophy am I imposing on them? What is the standard of pro-life? Does it only apply to fetuses?
On a side note, “The Abortionist” would be an awesome super hero name.
@trunthepaige - I am personally of the opinion that life, human or otherwise, has relative value to one another. Whether you agree or not that is my philosophy, and that is not a philosophy I am forcing on pro-life people. I am trying to understand what pro-life means, because as you stated it, what you call “Pro-Life” is what I would just call “Anti-Abortion” and has little to do with Human Life in general.
Murder is murder, whether its with a gun or on the operating table of an abortion clinic, and its wrong. I’m (mostly) pro-life, but I don’t support the rhetoric that leads people to grossly inhumane actions such as this, and I definitely don’t support the lunatics who think they can get away with stuff like this. It makes moderates, such as myself look bad and turns the debate into a battleground that never should have been formed in the first place.
I live in wichita. This is a pretty big deal here. You can bullshit about numbers like that all you want, but the fact is this… George Tiller was a law abiding citizen. He offered a service that people wanted. Someone killed him for it. Bounce that off of your morals.
$0.02
@EarthsAzureLight - You are saying that it is inconsistent to think in terms of innocent life vs execution for taking innocent life. But that is an inconsistency only by your narrow way of looking at it. The issue is not about any life, but innocent human life. A murderer is not innocent and has earned his execution. While a baby has committed no crime.
You are trying to focus your narrow vision, (one shared by comparatively few others), on a group of people who could never understand your inability open your mind, just a bit past your politics and see what is so obvious.
@trunthepaige - I did not say that it was inconsistent to me, what I said would be inconsistent if people say all life has equal value, and still held those beliefs, if you read my above statement, I stated that I do not feel that all life is equal. What about Euthenasia?
That’s a tragedy. I am disappointed in Pro-lifers. I don’t understand how you can be against abortion, yet all for fertilization treatments. Aren’t they essentially the same thing? Taking life where there should be, and giving life where there shouldn’t be. Both are playing God. So theoretically, by most arguments, both are wrong.
hypofreakingcrits.
Well this is hard to comprehend. Automatically, you think they are not equal. But aren’t they both taking a life? The debate goes into when life begins — I believe at conception.
None of it is right. Somehow I feel little pity for the man who died though. It’s like if they killed Hitler “Oh the poor guy, so sad” I do think the person who killed him though is going to give pro lifers a bad rep, which isn’t really fair considering most pro lifers aren’t radicals like that. And yeah it is inconsistant to answer your question. Who says this guy’s life was worth more than any of the babies lives? I think it all needs to stop whether it is a doctor or baby really. If the doctor didn’t kill, he wouldn’t have been killed either. Abortions make me want to go hug my little guy. So sad.
@Dare2BDiferentt - haha I like that. Karma’s a bitch
Ugh. Stop comparing lives. One life isn’t worth more than another – or even millions of others. Each life lost by violence is a tragedy. It is even more of a tragedy if it is done in the name of good or god, because it brings “good” or “god” down to the level of murderers.
Sick.
HA Wow. How can he even walk into a church with a job like that? I know everyone else thinks this is soooo offensive.. But I think the prick had it coming. He deserved exactly what he got. The irony is just too much. I have to admit, when I read this, I got a huge smile and said “GOOD.”.. outloud.
And for those who think murder is never acceptable, and that no one deserves to die, I would expect you are all pro life as well. It wouldn’t be fair to value this pricks life above a fetus, now would it?
Does EITHER side remember what Jesus said,..”Thou shelt not kill?”
Gee, and now,..we’re keeping score?
@MicheleWasHere - Heck yeah it is.
Once again, this is why we need to rid society of Christianity/religion. Religion does NOTHING BUT HARM the world.
Take the Bible out of the public venue, please. The sooner we move to a purely atheistic society the better.
@DrugInducedDuck - lmao
“Is it consistent to focus on the death of one and ignore the death of millions?”
Who have pro-choicers killed? Oh wait! I see. . . you’re projecting the idea that woman don’t have a right to make their own medical decisions about their bodies.
I disagree with your biased phrasing in your post. Aborting an unwanted, un-needed, or un-healthy fetus is a woman’s right. Whether you think the fetus is a human doesn’t discount the right to be medically in charge of one’s body. And it certainly doesn’t warrant the killing of one who is able to safely assist in these medial practices.
The media is consistent in being biased. Whereas to them three murders of adults are far worse than fifty million babies. Does that mean I condone someone murdering this guy? No, I do not.
It upsets me that people are so narrow-minded that they will consider us all hypocrites for the sins of three.
@darkgreenwriter - Just because a person is unwanted condones their murder? It is a woman’s right to murder her child?
@LyricallyCharged - So in your opinion, one’s growth stage and age determines how human one is?
@firetyger - It isn’t a child yet, just a group of tissue and cells that could, at the great assistance of a woman become a child. It all depends on when you say a fetus earns human rights. Technically, the cells that produce a human are alive before a sperm fertilizes an egg, and those cells are killed millions of times a day – doesn’t make them less alive, or have less of a chance of producing a human some day.
That’s sad. He went through a lot for his profession.
@firetyger - I never denied one or the others humanity. I believe as humans we have (for lack of a better word) value. I can’t bring myself to put the murder of a grown man on a scale and have it weigh the same as a legal and licensed practice. And even if it were illegal, I still can make that scale tip more in the unborn’s favor.
how dare you? that man had memories, and friends, and thoughts and feelings and was aware of his existence. none of this is true of fetuses. NO, it is not inconsistant, it is not the same thing at all.
@darkgreenwriter - right on!
@CelestialTeapot - good point.
@Olyachka - LOL LOL LOL. I love karma. It’s just incredible in so many ways. Some day, all of my enemies will be shot in their place of worship.
Karma doesn’t use a gun, cunt.
*the previous statement was sarcasm, you douchebag trolls.
What a coincidence, mine too.
@firetyger - The media is consistent in being biased. Whereas to them three murders of adults are far worse than fifty million babies.
The media can cover this individual murdesr on their own merits. The media did not make the value judgement of the murder of “three adults” being worse than your “fifty million babies.”
Controversy, controversy, moar moar moar!
*ahem*
I find myself on the fence regarding whether a fetus is alive in the earliest stages of development. If they are, then there is no difference between a grown man and a fetus; both murders are tragic. On the other hand, GodlessLiberal posted an excellent question once- which would you be most likely to save from a burning building: two embryoes or one baby? I had to admit that I could never leave one baby behind to save two embryoes… even though it kind of looked like I should prioritize and save two lives over one.
It was food for thought.
Dan, I gotta hand it to you. You did a job well done pointing this out.
How about we not pro-choicers not kill 50,000 million and counting and we’ll also save the other 3 while were at it.
You can’t call 50 million fetuses human beings.
What the anti-choice movement just did was murder a medical professional who provided hundreds of women with a chance to get somewhere in life and not be forced to have children they could not support.
Again, if you’re going to jump all over me for this (anybody), you had better be the adoptive parent of at least one crack baby.
Otherwise, spare me the “life is sacred” crap.
yes because abortion isn’t killing or certainly not ALL abortions constitute killing not under the law and not in the minds of people who are pro-choice. That’s a definition of life pro-life people abide by and try to force upon pro-choice people and it’s by no means a settled issue no matter how much the pro-life lobby wants to use rhetoric that suggests that it is.
Murder is murder. Period.
Murder is unacceptable, be it an innocent being or a doctor. However, this brings up an interesting, yet disturbing question – would killing an abortion doctor be considered a form of defense against an aggressor who poses a grave and imminent threat against an innocent life (in this case, the unborn)?
Forms of population control…
Idiot.
Imagine a world with 50 million MORE unwanted children.
As far as I’m concerned, the less people, the better.
“Look how much we care about fetuses!” *shoots abortion doctor*
Radicals… what morons.
Recent cases of abortion-related violence:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/31/recent-cases-of-abortionr_n_209528.html
@QuantumStorm - …would killing an abortion doctor be considered a form of defense against an aggressor who poses a grave and imminent threat against an innocent life (in this case, the unborn)?
Perhaps in motivation, but I don’t see how it could actually prevent any abortions. The murder wouldn’t impact the abortion-providing infrastructure nor the demand for abortions.
The act seems, to me, more akin to acts of terrorism.
@LyricallyCharged - I can’t bring myself to put the murder of a grown man on a scale and have it weigh the same as a legal and licensed practice.
Slavery used to be legal. Black slaves had a value of 3/5 of a man. It’s unbelievable that with your ancestry that you could have the same mentality of a white slave owner.
@LyricallyCharged - As humans, it does not matter if you are a man or a baby — they have the same human rights. Abortion should not be legal. The right to life is one of the most basic rights of any person. Legality has nothing to do with whether or not something is inherently right or wrong. Saying that just because something has been made a legalized practice does not mean it is right.
@LoBornlite - Slavery used to be legal
Slavery use to be supported by Christians.
@firetyger - The right to life is one of the most basic rights of any person.
The catholic church says that this right begins at the sperm. What do you think?
@lotta_valdez - So if we think theft is wrong do we also need to stop robberies in progress by your logic? The terms of your argument are contradictory.
@LoBornlite - And it’s unbelievable that you would use the color of my skin to try to make a point.
@CelestialTeapot - The catholic church says that this right begins at the sperm. What do you think?
You state something that the Catholic Church does not hold as doctrine. Then you ask me what I think.
I think you’re foul mouthed a moron. I highly recommend that you ask me what is right and what is wrong, not what I think.
@LyricallyCharged - And it’s unbelievable that you would use the color of my skin to try to make a point.
I’m using the history of your people and the fact that it has taught you nothing to make a point.
I’m not a big fan of abortion either but until we can reduce unwanted pregnancies (spread comprehensive sex education and access to birth control), abortion is a “lesser evil” than birth.
The majority of abortion recipients are younger than 25, 32% are 20-24, and 20% are teenagers (http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html). Individuals this young are not as well prepared to raise a child as those past their mid-20s. Teenagers are much more likely to die in childbirth than adults, and they have lower educations and incomes. If they are unable to care for their children properly, the children will inherit these living conditions. I have a post on my blog with the sources. The best scenario would be if the mother put the baby up for adoption.
And if abortion was illegal, many mothers would get one the illegal, riskier way… endangering not only the baby’s life but her own.
@LoBornlite - You state something that the Catholic Church does not hold as doctrine. Then you ask me what I think.
No. Check the reply tag.
I think you’re foul mouthed a moron.
I think you’re a Christ-loving, mindless, zombie. The sort with intestines hanging out of your tummy, and cerebral spinal fluid leaking out of your eyes.
I highly recommend that you ask me what is right and what is wrong, not what I think.
You’re an idiot, right? Oh wait. That’s a self-defeating question.
@EarthsAzureLight - A baby is formed at conception. The sperm alone is not a baby. The egg alone is not a baby. It is the fertilized egg that is a baby. It is at it’s beginning growth stage and at that point has all the same human rights as you and I.
When do you consider it to be a baby with human rights?
@LoBornlite - So because I’m black I’m supposed to act or think a certain way? Let me go find the son of a KKK member and tell him it’s OK to slit my throat because it’s in his history.
@firetyger - When it can survive biologically unassisted by it’s host (mother). Generally speaking, 16 weeks or later. You could draw the line at 11 or 12, no pre-mature child has ever survived outside a protected enviroment this early in the term.
To summarize, when it can survive biologically independently.
@LoBornlite - Slavery used to be legal. Black slaves had a value of 3/5 of a man. It’s unbelievable that with your ancestry that you could have the same mentality of a white slave owner.
Ironically, you’re helping demonstrate that anything is taken as moral, as long as it’s attributed to God and religion.
The same sort of dogmatic thinking that led particular men to bomb abortion clinics and murder physicians is the same of thinking perpetuated by American Christians during the 1850′s in support of the curious institution of slavery.
@firetyger - A baby is formed at conception. The sperm alone is not a baby. The egg alone is not a baby. It is the fertilized egg that is a baby. It is at it’s beginning growth stage and at that point has all the same human rights as you and I.
It is rather arbitrary to define “baby” at the moment of coneption. There is a continuous line of developent from the genesis of the gametes to fertilization and to final development of the fetus. You’re picking and choosing with no provided justification.
They are both deaths.
@CelestialTeapot - I think you’re foul mouthed a moron.
I think you’re a Christ-loving, mindless, zombie. The sort with intestines hanging out of your tummy, and cerebral spinal fluid leaking out of your eyes.
Thank you for proving my point.
Yes.
asssssssasssinssss! dey killed dey r murderssss!
@firetyger - Yes, you’re right, the legality of an issue has nothing to do with whether or not it is moral. But with the way I stand on the issue, the law is not immoral.
@LoBornlite - Thank you for proving my point.
Says the woman shirking from substantive discussion. You seem okay making a racially charged accusation, but responsiblity for it seem to evaporate the moment you’ve done your hurt.
That’s honesty of the most upstanding sort.
@CelestialTeapot - Slavery use to be supported by Christians
True. But right thinking Christians were responsible for the abolition of slavery. Christians have been the champions of the downtrodden and the enslaved in the New World.
@CelestialTeapot - Ironically, you’re helping demonstrate that anything is taken as moral, as long as it’s attributed to God and religion.
You are the one who is talking religion. My argument for pro-life comes from the Declaration of Independence.
@LoBornlite - Because of the history of your people you should be particularly in tune with human rights and discrimination. You are discriminating against human beings simply because they have not yet taken their first breath.
This is a stupid approach.
It should be clear to you that there is a fundamental disagreement over the standards of “personhood.” You’re asserting a sort of basic racism– Lyrically not understanding “her people”—without even laying the foundation for that discussion.
@LoBornlite - My argument for pro-life comes from the Declaration of Independence.
The Declaration of Independence is a symbolic declaration. It should be clear to you that it is the Constitution that serves as the legal framework for this country. If there is a conflict between the Constitution and the Dec. of Inde., guess which document take precedence?
Guess upon which document, Roe. v. Wade was decided?
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
@CelestialTeapot - This is a stupid approach.
This is the reasoned approach. Life begins at conception. Conception means beginning. If you don’t like the word change it.
But the entire world (except maybe you) accepts the meaning of language. Beginning means beginning. Therefore the unborn child is endowed with the unalienable right to life.
@CelestialTeapot - Guess upon which document, Roe. v. Wade was decided?
Neither. The legal right to abortion was law created out of nowhere and nothing.
Name the constitutional basis for killing babies.
@LyricallyCharged - So because I’m black I’m supposed to act or think a certain way? Let me go find the son of a KKK member and tell him it’s OK to slit my throat because it’s in his history.
Because of the history of your people you should be particularly in tune with human rights and discrimination. You are discriminating against human beings simply because they have not yet taken their first breath.
The Declaration of Independence states that all men are created equal and that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; the right to life, libery and the pursuit of happiness.
The unborn human being has the same right to life as you are I.
@LoBornlite - This is the reasoned approach.
Oh no, I didn’t mean the substance of your argument.
Your point was contingent on Lyrically accepting your standard of “life beginning at conception.” She does not, at this point, your Slavery analogy failed to become relevent with her. Yet, rather than addressing the fundamental disagreement a priori, you hammered on with the slavery point.
@LoBornlite - Neither. The legal right to abortion was law created out of nowhere and nothing.
The Supreme Court Justices were all nominated by a President and confirmed through the Senate. I doubt that our political process would allow someone to achieve the highest bench of the land with the habit of fabricating legal opinion.
@CelestialTeapot - Your point was contingent on Lyrically accepting your standard of “life beginning at conception.” She does not, at this point, your Slavery analogy failed to become relevent with her. Yet, rather than addressing the fundamental disagreement a priori, you hammered on with the slavery point.
This is gibberish. The drugs must be kicking in. Keep it up maybe you’ll fall asleep.
@CelestialTeapot - The Supreme Court Justices were all nominated by a President and confirmed through the Senate. I doubt that our political process would allow someone to achieve the highest bench of the land with the habit of fabricating legal opinion.
Completely irrelevant. A Supreme Court that manufactures law out of nothing does so regardless of the nomination and confirmation process.
@LoBornlite - Completely irrelevant.
Checks and balances. They check against abuse. With the sort of charge you’re making, the confirmation process is absolutely relevent.
A Supreme Court that manufactures law out of nothing does so regardless of the nomination and confirmation process.
If that’s the case, why hasn’t Roe v. Wade been overturned? Perhaps, there was a correct legal basis for that decision.
No it is not consistent, but that does not make what someone did wrong to kill this man. Yes, he was an abortion doctor, and I personally do not agree with abortion. However, one has to admit that taking a life as such is somewhat hypocritical–but then again, I am in support of the death penalty. I like to refer to the death penalty as…”taking out the trash” shall we say? Where as in the case of abortion, we are covering up someone’s discretion and making their child pay the price for it.
Personally, I believe this is the wrong method to bring support to the campaign for Pro-Life.
@LoBornlite - This is gibberish.
If you really had that much trouble understanding, you could have actually asked for a clarification.
The drugs must be kicking in. Keep it up maybe you’ll fall asleep.
Says the Queen of Ad Hominem attacks.
@TheOneOfShadows - Then you should kill yourself.
@sunshinekl - Then you should kill yourself.
That’s the precise sort of thinking that gives the Pro-Life movement a bad name.
The murder was horrible, and the guy needs to go to jail for life.
Good point but why is abortion such an issue when birth control isn’t even considered just as wrong.
http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090127102639AAivaWz&r=w&show_comments=true&cp=2&tp=2&pa=FZB6NWHjDG3N56z6v_2wWvicR.huBZIBNAedmKXmL1XEyIrMCMewmA–&paid=add_comment#openions
@CelestialTeapot -
The media can cover this individual murdesr
on their own merits. The media did not make the value judgement of the
murder of “three adults” being worse than your “fifty million babies.”
Even President Obama who supports the pro-choice stance believes that
there should be a fair-minded, open approach to the controversy of
abortion. The media however, acts as though the matter is settled and
decided. This bias is evident in their close-minded reporting of the
pro-choice/pro-life discussion that occurs within America. The media’s
coverage of this recent murder completely contrasts their coverage of
the issue of abortion.
The catholic church says that this right begins at the sperm. What do you think?
A person is created at conception.
he killed babies that no one even wanted, or needed. no one even knew them. the murder killed someone who everyone known and loved.
@CelestialTeapot - How do you know whether I am pro life or not? Oh thats right you don’t. Besides which, I was merely trying to point out the ridiculousness of the statement. I get so tired of people saying that abortion is OK b/c it’s 1 less person in this world. If people really honestly felt like there are too many people in the world then they should be the first to volunteer their own life. The fact is that 1 human life is not more important then another human life. Just because the courts have decided that its legal, does not make it true. I don’t think that the Dr deserved to die anymore then anyone else in this world.
@lauraloiss - You are making a huge assumption when you state that the babies he killed were not even wanted. Many women have abortions b/c they feel that it’s their only option. Many of them, under different circumstances would keep their babies. Many of them are traumatized for the rest of their lives b/c of the abortion(s) they had.
Oh dahling I just saw this one coming from you when I clicked
I do not condone them killing the dr.
I do not condone the killing of babies.
I have a really hard time w/ him being a Christian and performing abortions let alone “late term” abortions. I mean we all sin and have our faults but ritualistic murders is hard to forgive. This means he wasn’t sorry, this leading to why the hell was he in church?
OH and PS: If you don’t want a baby and you don’t want an abortion please the only safe sex is NO sex. You will not shrivel up and die w/ out it and NOW I will jump off my soap box cause this just isn’t the place I want to be.
He was on trial to late-term abortions – he was a murderer. All he experienced was a very late-term abortion. As for his murderers, they took justice into their own hands and deserve to be punished.
I don’t think we should brand all pro-lifers, however you don’t see pro-choice extremists going out and killing pro-lifers… pro-life = pro-life.. Not killing anyone. =/
@CelestialTeapot - If that’s the case, why hasn’t Roe v. Wade been overturned? Perhaps, there was a correct legal basis for that decision.
You said the Roe v Wade decision came from one of two documents.
Which ones? Put up or shut up. Quit trying to change the subject.
@LyricallyCharged - But you weren’t talking about whether or not it was moral or immoral. You said: “I can’t bring myself to put the murder of a grown man on a scale and have it weigh the same as a legal and licensed practice.” You were saying it wasn’t the same because abortion is legal.
And right now, our laws are contradictory. Abortion is legalized and not considered murder yet if a pregnant woman is attacked and the unborn inside her dies, the attacker is tried for murder. One law needs to be changed. It’s either murder or it’s not. I would argue it is murder.
The person who killed him is a moron. So he’s gone? There are a lot of other doctors that perform abortions.
@lauraloiss - By your justification…it’s then alright to kill someone like a homeless bum because no one knows them or loves them?
it’s actually 9, not including attempts made. and when you don’t consider a fetus a human, yes. it is consistent.
i think the greatest part is that he was killed in a church. way to go “christians”.
@WintersWitch - I agree I agree with you! My husband and I made it a priority to not partake in sexual activities until marriage–and we did completely fine without it!
I know you’re getting flamed, but I see where you’re coming from. Christ never would have condoned murder. But I understand that you’re simply looking at the numbers, not at the rightness or wrongness of the act itself. My prayers are with the Tiller family; I’m dreading the media storm that will vilify all pro-life people; this is just an awful situation all around. Awful for the babies and mommies who have been hurt, awful for the pro-life movement, and awful for the Tiller family. Our world is messed UP.
Lord Jesus, please come back tomorrow and fix it all.
See Dan, just when I decide that I’ve had enough of your sensationalism (and boobs), you post something that points out a glaring cultural inconsistency. . .and I’m back again.
@EarthsAzureLight - What happens if we develop the technology to extract the baby immediately after conception? Does the time of when you then deem it a human change? That is a pretty shaky basis for determining whether an unborn child is human or not.
Does a baby such as a one year old not have the same equal human rights as an adult? That child is still dependent upon it’s parents to feed and care for it. Without a caretaker it could not survive. If we determine one’s humanity by their dependency, do you then not consider a child a human with human rights until they can survive without a caretaker?
@sunshinekl - How do you know whether I am pro life or not? Oh thats right you don’t.
Nor did I imply to. I was speaking to the effect of your comment, not its intentions.
Besides which, I was merely trying to point out the ridiculousness of the statement.
It’s not a ridiculous statement, it’s a matter of fact. There are statistics demonstrating society’s cost to unwanted, unaborted babies. There are anecdotes relating unhappy families and unhappy lives.
But most importantly, your pointed personal attack demonstrated little “reason” beyond a smart allecky sarcasm.
The fact is that 1 human life is not more important then another human life.
That’s at very question here– when does “peresonhood” start. Pro-life says before the first rimester, pro-choice says before the second or third trimester.
The majority of pro-lifers strongly denounce the actions of the person who violently took the life of this Dr. Unfortunately, there has and always will be a few wackos on every side of every issue but this doesn’t reflect the opinion of the majority of the people. This is a horrible thing that has happened and I’m deeply saddened by this unnecessary death and my heart goes out to this Doctor’s family. I promise you, God doesn’t condone this action taken by this one misguided individual who dared to sit in the seat of judgement and play the role of a God he obviously doesn’t know. It’s people like this who puts the rest of us in an evil light in the eyes of everyone else.
signed,
A Pro-Lifer
@firetyger - “Does a baby such as a one year old not have the same equal human rights as an adult?” This is not BIOLOGICAL depedence, this is simple social dependence. There are times when even humans are deemed to have less human rights. Simese Twins for instance. If one child must be sacrificed in order to guarantee the survival of another, it’s up to the parents to make that decision. This is based on biological dependence on each other, or one on the other.
If the technology one day exists to take a child from a woman and ensure its survival when it would unable to naturally do so, then whoever wants to take care of this “child” can feel free to do so. The reality is that as long as the woman has to be responsible for the child, if it cannot take care of itself, she should have the choice to ends its life.
If you feel strongly about the lives of unwanted children, I expect that if abortion is outlawed, you will be one of the people to take on 5-6 unwanted crack babies.
The fact is, these humans-in-progress have not reached a point where they can function without their mothers, really hosts, and that women should have the right to do what they see fit with their body. If a baby is able to live by itself, and the mother doesn’t want it, I fully expect it to be taken care of by an adoptive or foster family, however we cannot force people to carry unwanted humans-to-be if they don’t want them, especially if they will be born with severe mental defects or physical issues.
These children are almost never adopted, and likely never will be.
Something to think about.
“but this” and “but that” – sounds like aiding and abetting, just after the fact. nice.
@Beautiful_Disaster_74 - Agreed.
@CelestialTeapot - It is not arbitrary to say that a baby is formed at conception. That is when the 23 chromosomes of the father and the 23 chromosomes of the mother join to form a unique life that has it’s own 46 chromosome set of DNA and gender. It did not exist before that moment. Explain how that is arbitrary.
Nope.
I’ve missed these little news updates from you :]
@firetyger - That is when the 23 chromosomes of the father and the 23 chromosomes of the mother join to form a unique life that has it’s own 46 chromosome set of DNA and gender. It did not exist before that moment. Explain how that is arbitrary.
You’re arbitrarily declaring “full assortment of chromosomes = life!” Why this point? There are other unique roadmakers along the way– when the zygote first divides. When cells self-sort to layers of differntiated tissue. Neuralation? Gastulation? You’re arbitrarily declaring one of many biological roadmarker “the beginning of life.” You’d need a justification.
There are actually those with less or more chromosomes than 46, and we don’t delcare them any less human.
@EarthsAzureLight - The logical conclusion of your statement: “The reality is that as long as the woman has
to be responsible for the child, if it cannot take care of itself, she
should have the choice to ends its life” is that she could kill the child even after it is born then.
I would argue that they are not potential humans – they are humans. From the moment of conception as, like I told CelestialTeapot, the baby (or organism if you wish) is formed with it’s own unique set of DNA and gender. It did not exist before that. Hence, I argue that conception is the beginning of a new person and that they have the same equal rights as you and I. Killing them just because they are unwanted or might have health issues does not justify murder.
@firetyger - A braindead hospital patient, too, has a unique set of DNA, but is he really alive?
@nkleyva - You’re welcome, and thank you as well!
@CelestialTeapot - How does it make sense that the implantation of a developing blastocyst onto a uterine wall is more defining of being a human than does the creation of a unique set of DNA along with gender, which defines the organism’s existence? And again, why would the formation of the nervous system be more defining than the completion of DNA mapping and sex? Conception is the pivotal point of a new and defined organism’s existence.
The reason I brought up 46 chromosomes was to talk about the time of conception – when the DNA of the parents combine and form a new individual. I did not mean those who are born with less chromosomes are any less human. Stop trying to change the subject.
@firetyger - Conception is the pivotal point of a new and defined organism’s existence.
Personhood doesn’t necessarily equal existance. Brain-dead person with a full assortment of chromsomes and tissue is still brain-dead.
DNA is mere instruction. Wouldn’t you think that the manifestation of that instruction to protein and tissue be more meaningful?
I did not mean those who are born with less chromosomes are any less human. Stop trying to change the subject.
Just going by the letter of your comment. I’m not a mind-reader, you know.
@CelestialTeapot - //
The same sort of dogmatic thinking
that led particular men to bomb abortion clinics and murder physicians
is the same of thinking perpetuated by American Christians during the
1850′s in support of the curious institution of slavery.//
Slavery is no more contingent upon religious preferences than abortion is. http://users.binary.net/polycarp/slave.html
and
http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html
@QuantumStorm - Bible was cited in defense of slavery. Belief in the Biblical legitimacy of slavery, I’m thinking, stalled rational discussion of its debate.
While Slavery didn’t have its genesis or spread in Religion, popular Christianity (of the time) helped it stick.
@CelestialTeapot - //Bible was cited in defense of slavery. Belief in the Biblical legitimacy of slavery, I’m thinking, stalled
rational discussion of its debate.//
It does not follow, however, that all Christians thought this way.
//
While Slavery didn’t have its genesis or spread in Religion, popular Christianity (of the time) helped it stick.
//
Of which kind? Where? Just as there were those who were pro-slavery, abolitionists also existed at the time. Also consider that Christianity was a minority for much of its earlier times, and other religions promoted such views as well (depending on the interpretation). As stated earlier, slavery is no more contingent upon religious preferences than abortion is.
@trunthepaige - Unfortunately much of America has a problem seeing past a few bad apples. That’s how we ended up with things like racial profiling.
no its not right to kill him for being an abortion doctor, but at the same time most countries follow the ridiculous notion of capital punishment. To help enforce our law that killing is wrong, we’re going to kill you for killing someone else. Our entire would is full of hypocrites, there’s no way around it.
I do not condone murder, but neither do I mourn his death. He did, after all, kill many babies. I do feel bad for his family.
@CelestialTeapot - If you really had that much trouble understanding, you could have actually asked for a clarification.
Since you refuse to answer a simple question clearly, I’ll answer it for you. There is no constitutional right to abortion. The Constitution states specifically that any powers not given to the federal government by the Constitution are left to the states.
Roe v Wade was an example judicial activism. New law was created out of nothing. Creating new laws is the constitutional duty of the legislative branch. There is no check on the Supreme Court when it takes on the power of the legislative branch of government.
@CelestialTeapot - lol Trun is a freakin’ retard.
@LoBornlite - I admired you for youer persistence and for the appearence of measured reason, but the more I read your comments, the more I realize that your stances and your justifications aren’t the product of an objective search, but ad hoc products of your particular beliefs.
I’ll answer it for you. There is no constitutional right to abortion. The Constitution states specifically that any powers not given to the federal government by the Constitution are left to the states.
Turn your own argument against yourself: There is no Constitutional restriction against abortion.
And when you check the laws, you’d see that the question of abortion is indeed left to the states. Across the country, there is a discrepancy in the particulars of abortion policy. In some states, abortion beyond the first trimester is legal; in other states, it is not.
Roe v Wade was an example judicial activism. New law was created out of nothing.
You can’t lie like this just because you don’t agree with it. Try reading the decision or a digest of it, hardly nothing: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=410&invol=113
There is no check on the Supreme Court when it takes on the power of the legislative branch of government.
You ma’am, demonstrate a willful ignorance of the Constitution. The confirmation process judge Justices on past merits. For those who commit offenses after being confirmed to bench, there is a built-in impeachment and removal process for Supreme Court Justice in the U.S. Constitution.
Here’s the thing – we’re talking about killing an INNOCENT unborn child, versus a GUILTY adult.
So its still worse to kill the baby. The adult has already decided his path whereas the baby hasn’t even had a chance to make any sort of decision.
@CelestialTeapot - Turn your own argument against yourself: There is no Constitutional restriction against abortion.
Murder is against the law. Roe v Wade legalized murder of the unborn. The purpose of the Constitution is to limit the powers of the federal government. Roe v Wade is an example of the judicial branch of government usurping the power of the legislative branch by creating new law.
You can’t lie like this just because you don’t agree with it. Try reading the decision or a digest of it, hardly nothing: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=410&invol=113
Your usual trip down the rabbit hole of the completely irrelevant. And don’t complain about me being Queen of the Ad Hominem attacks and then proceed to call me a liar.
confirmation process judge Justices on past merits. For those who commit offenses after being confirmed to bench, there is a built-in impeachment and removal process for Supreme Court Justice in the U.S. Constitution.
Another rabbit hole. The confirmation process and removal process have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Why can’t you just answer a simple question with a simple, direct answer?
@LoBornlite - Murder is against the law. Roe v Wade legalized murder of the unborn.
This is a different argument. Nice of you to change course after your rant of Roe v. Wade fails.
Your usual trip down the rabbit hole of the completely irrelevant.
Cunt, your unreasoned dissmsal serves no place in a rationale discussion. You claimed that Roe v. Wade was somehow imagined irrespective of the Constitution. The case report shows how you’re wrong.
It is nice of you to hold your personal legal abilities over that of Supreme Court justices, but when faced with the facts, this facade needs to fall.
Another rabbit hole. The confirmation process and removal process have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Bitch, you can’t even keep in mind your own line of argumentation. You pointed out how there are no checks against members of the Supreme Court. I argued, yes there is– an impeachment and removal mechanism.
Rebutt the letter of the argument. The argument was made, you need address it as it was made– either tear apart the premises or the logic between the premises. Waves of your hand can’t alter reality.
Why can’t you just answer a simple question with a simple, direct answer?
You are a good dancer. You twirl about, running through walls of arguments and doors of logic. And you now, hold me to particular thread of your own argument? You are a hypocrite. Not in the arguments you make, but by the standards with which you hold fellow debaters to.
Your “question” is answered in the context of the replying comment. Go back and bother rereading, I am confindent that you’d find it.
Hmmm…is it worse to trivialize a certain “type” of death just because it happens less frequently?
Seriously. The stupid things people say…
@CelestialTeapot - The case report shows how you’re wrong.
How? Another simple question, waiting for a simple, direct reply.
One does not need a case report of any kind to understand the basic principles of American government. That is why your argument is irrelevant.
The judicial branch of government legislated new law. That is a violation of the separation of powers.
This is the way a world corrupted by sin reacts to conflict. Since most people do not have a standard or moral compass to compare their own moral standards to, they just do what is right in their own eyes.
@CelestialTeapot - Your “question” is answered in the context of the replying comment. Go back and bother rereading, I am confindent that you’d find it.
This is what I found to be the essence of your comments in your own words:
1) Cunt, your unreasoned dissmsal serves no place in a rationale discussion.
2) Bitch, you can’t even keep in mind your own line of argumentation.
Earlier you asked me what I thought and I answered “I think you are a foul mouthed moron.” My comment stands proven correct by none other than the foul mouthed moron himself.
Did he personally kill 50 million people? Did he cock a gun to any of these women’s heads and force them to have an abortion? If you are going to call them all murders then arrest and throw every woman in jail who has ever had an abortion. Where is the women and their accountability for these actions? He didn’t force them to walk into his clinic and seek his services. I will do you one better. How about women who think about abortion do time for conspiracy to commit murder? Should Sarah Palin be thrown in jail for that? I have respect for pro lifers and in some ways agree with them…until they become pretentious hypocrites. This man was assasinated while handing out bulletins in his own church. The church where his wife sang in the choir (and coincidentally had the rapture of seeing him gunned down) and the same church that respected his right to worship even though ‘pro lifers’ called in bomb threats on that church just for giving him a place to worship. Take your own sanctimony and go fuck yourself…
If it’s acceptable to kill the doctors, it’s acceptable to kill the mothers as well.
Recommend
@trunthepaige - I’m pro-choice, but I agree with you on this one. Because ONE person went psycho, apparently all pro-lifers are going to go off the deep end and start gunning people down? Right. I don’t buy that. Most pro-lifers I know preach only peace. Too bad it’s the extremists who get the media coverage.
Oh, another one of these…
I feel terrible for this mans family.
This infuriates me.
I have no respect for these people who call themselves “pro-life.” And im sorry if that hurts anyones feelings, but I dont fucking care, you make me sick to think you would let a child suffer through being poor and hungry all the time, then to just not be born at all..
“Thats what adoption agencies are for!!”
YEAH and its called OVER-ABUNDANCE OF CHILDREN WHO AREN’T WANTED.
You know, its alot better to kill a child ALREADY BORN, or to put them in a home where they get breaten everyday and have no respect from anyone.. then to not be born at all.
Fucking idiots.
I hate this topic and I dont even know why I am getting involved…
@Eternalimplosion - Most people have a moral compass. It is just different than yours, so it seems non-existent.
They should have let God take care of it. It was wrong to kill the doctor.
Of course it’s inconsistent and hypocritical.
As far as denouncing this killing. I am pro-life and I denounce the killing of this man of my own free-will. I do not feel coerced to denounce it at all.
Interesting point.
It is frustrating, though, that one person can ruin it for all of us. This is exactly the kind of behavior that the pro-choice camp fixes on, instead of noticing the thousands of crisis pregnancy clinics across the nation or adoption support that many pro-life people contribute to. He is one person that does something negative yet thousands of people who do something positive are ignored and judged by one rash extremist.
There is only one death in your comparison. Unborn life isn’t life at all; man becomes a living soul when the first independent breath is taken. Those who kill human beings have no respect whatsoever for human life, which might have something to do with why they spend their efforts and energy meddling in the lives of women over make-believe people. They are clueless to a dangerous point.
You pro-life conservative right-wing nuts really piss me off. You say that people shouldn’t abort a fetus, but I don’t see you providing for these unwanted children. Yes, I know that some of them are adopted, but the masses of unwanted children are in for a rough life.
So, unless you’re personally going to provide food, shelter, clothing and an education; keep your mouth shut and your hands and guns off of decent people.
According to your Xtian beliefs, heaven is better than life on earth, so you should be pleased when a fetus, which YOU believe is a life, is delivered without “sin” or the pain of life to the creator. For that matter, I don’t want to see any more of you complaining or crying about abortions or any death. You should be happy!
You are such hypocrites. Your attempts at a moral stance only cover your true intentions of creating an underclass to be manipulated by the heads of your religions
Please… GO!
All of you that believe in religion, please go to your creator today! Then those of us left on earth will truly have peace.
I’m sure that you’ll say that suicide in a sin, but since your only unforgivable sin is blasphemy and you don’t seem to have a problem with other sins including adultery, murder, fornication, working on the Sabbath (Saturday), worshiping false idols (Saints), molesting children, etc., just take a bunch of pills then ask for forgiveness while you wait for your inevitable death.
Committing an act that is against the law isn’t right… on the other hand committing an act that’s “lawful” doesn’t mean it IS right.
Dr. Tiller was killed in an appalling and heinous way. That deserves only condemnation. However, his acts and decisions deserve no honor or respect. That’s my opinion.
One has to be born before one can die.
contradicting :s
this might not be on point, but I’ll say it anyway….
when one considers infanticide which was a huge problem before modern abortion techniques came about abortion is more humane.
In other ways I agree with you. Networks always cover missing blonde teenagers, but never the thousands of teenagers that go missing every year. Networks cover autraucities where we have economic interests but never bring Darfur to the forefront. The news is about what grabs your attention the most so their advertisers will pay top dollar, not what you need to know.
@firetyger - i never said anything about bums.
@A better life without you - ive been waiting for someone to say this!
I am pro life. I am against killing people, any people. At what point in development do people become people? The fetuses that this doctor was removing were at the same developmental stage as many babies in the NICU. The ones in NICU are considered babies even though they are less developed than some of the aborted fetuses. Is killing a 26 week preemie in the NICU any different than aborting a 26 week fetus? Would you be tried for murder if you killed a NICU baby that was 26 weeks? What if you were that baby’s mother? Your right to choose?
I fail to see the millions you’re talking about.
My heart goes out to Dr. Tiller’s family…
Pro-lifers were already branded with negative stereotypes before this maniac went and shot somebody. I blogged about it a few days ago: We are more than our labels.
Until individuals decide to put down their bullhorns on this issue and actually listen to each other, we’ll always just be calling names and shouting. That doesn’t make for a very productive dialog.
@CelestialTeapot -
“Personhood doesn’t necessarily equal existance. Brain-dead person with a full assortment of chromsomes and tissue is still brain-dead.”
Personhood by definition from the Merriam-Webster dictionary means a human, an individual. A brain-dead person is no less a person in my opinion because our humanity is not defined by our brain activity. But that’s another argument all-together. Personhood does mean a human individual and as such, a person has same equal human rights. Abortion violates the human rights of the unborn.
“DNA is mere instruction. Wouldn’t you think that the manifestation of that instruction to protein and tissue be more meaningful?”
DNA mapping defines an individual separate from it’s mother and father. It’s not just some tissue or cells that are indistinguishable from the mother’s DNA – it is a new unique person. Do we not use DNA forensics to track criminals? DNA defines individuality. Conception is the defining mark of the creation of a new set of DNA and sex. It determines existence because the individual did not exist before that.
@lauraloiss -
“i never said anything about bums.”
You didn’t need to specifically say homeless bums since your justification for murdering the unborn was that they were “not wanted, or needed. no one even knew them.” If that is your justification for murdering them, that applies to other people like bums as well. See the problem here?
@firetyger - I think your focus is on moral semantics. You call the fetus both “person” and “child” and frame abortion as “murder.” Obviously there are strong opinions about the value to you of a creature yet unborn. As where, I would not frame my pro-abortion arguments about murder, persons, or children. Murder and children do not exist in abortion from my frame of reference.
So, my answer is simply yes, it is a woman’s right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. The courts have upheld this and, as a man, I have no claims or rights in controlling a woman’s body and, even if I agreed with your semantical sentiments about human fetuses, I must still vote for women to have full rights to choices over their bodies.
@awokenfatality - Thank you. Someone, I think, either failed at math or hasn’t realized that no children were harmed in this abortion. Period.
he was my mom’s friend
He deserved it.
50 mil for induced abortion? Got some stats for that? I think that’s the miscarage number, which would be a lot more reasonable. And now to stop nit-picking…
They focus on one because he was alive and killed over political reasons. Obviously I don’t think children in the womb are alive. However, I don’t think any RATIONAL pro-lifer would allow this. I know they think the person is dispicable, but they wouldn’t go as far as to kill.
(Btw, if anyone wants to challenge me on my position, I kindly request you don’t give me a religious or an argument to appeal to my emotion.)
@firetyger - no, not really. its my opinion and im entitled to it, and im not trying to pick on yours so whatever
@sugar__tits - thats what im trying to say, but @firetyger is trying to pick a fight with pretty much everyone. :/
@lauraloiss - I’m merely asking you to think about your opinion and how you justify it. Is that wrong of me?
its kind of pissing me off, theres really no way you can change my mind.
goodbye.
@lauraloiss - don’t get frustrated. it’s not fighting, it’s discussing, and if you believe in your (our) opinion so strongly then you should be able to defend it. so keep defending!
@firetyger - there’s a difference. bums have feelings and memories and are aware of their existences.
@CelestialTeapot -
LoL
Thanks for the plug.
@darkgreenwriter - In your opinion, when is it that a fetus (or whatever term you use) becomes a human with human rights?
If you agree that an unborn fetus/child is human and thus has the same rights as us all, then it is wrong to say that it is alright for a mother to abort simply because she doesn’t want or need it. I don’t think any human has the right to murder another. A woman’s rights are not superior to the rights of a man or a baby. As humans we all have equal rights. The right to life being the most basic.
@sugar__tits - What she had said was that the difference was “he killed babies that no one even wanted, or needed. no one even knew them.” Her argument could be applied to people like bums who are not wanted, needed, or known in many cases. It is a very weak argument with far too many holes in it for trying to justify her opinion with.
As for saying that bums are humans and the unborn are not because bums have feelings, memories, and are aware of their existence… You’re saying one’s humanity is dependent on how much you can feel and how aware you are of your existence?
@AibellFaeire - Perhaps, but id say most people base their morals on either what they were told by their parents all their lives which just basically comes down to each persons personal opinion…and opinions are generally never consist throughout your life. Morals are consistent, right and wrong never changes. Im not saying you are wrong, because yeah, i can never know how other people truely base how they act or react to situations in life, no one can.
@firetyger - of course it is! being able to THINK and process our existences, to feel and be aware of our feelings, this is all that makes us human. why should something that simply has the genetic markup of a person be considered a person if it can’t do those things? why should DNA alone make the difference?
thats just fucked up
I believe their both wrong to kill babies. Though having said that murder is never right it’s not the Churches right to take it into their own hands and kill. What good would that do, their will just be another doctor who will do abortions. It’s the choice of the women who having an abortion . It’s sad that abortions happen but that doesn’t justify murder. But ya what he did was wrong, but killing someone isn’t going to stop it from happening. Plus the church is suppose to love their enemies not kill them.
@Dare2BDiferentt - its actually not such a funny matter, you know?
Killing to stop killing. Makes perfect
sense. It was wrong, and a person who calls themselves ‘pro-life’ is
hypocritical by murdering someone in the name of life.
Let me preface my comment by saying I am pro-life, I disagree with abortion AS WELL AS the death penalty.
This is heart-breaking to me, that something like this could divide Americans so deeply that it would lead them to murder. I mourn the death of George Tiller just as I would the loss of any other human life, regardless of whether or not we agreed on abortion. It disgusts me that some people take their stances on abortion to the point of murder.
I don’t like the tone of your post, in that you almost seem to “celebrate” his death in comparing it to the amount of babies aborted.
I find it ironic for a fellow pro-lifer to find murdering someone who is pro-choice to be fine. I cannot comprehend the “logic” behind that.
Let me also state, that not all people who consider themselves pro-life consider this act justified, or are not any less disgusted with what has happened than anyone who would consider themselves pro-choice.
@goalsforjanuary - I was being sarcastic, you know?
@PSUnited1 - Your answer is brilliant.
He was only doing his job. Might as well kill those that decide to kill their own child.
PS: Scientifically, abortion is not murder. Scientifically, shooting that man is murder.
Everyone has different morals, beliefs, and opinions.
Everyone has the same scientific facts.
yes, as long as there are less killings on one side, then they’re the right side… i don’t think that’s how it works
Another abortionist has arrived in Hell just where he belongs. Almost as distasteful as Dr. Tiller’s baby killings is the fact that he was ushering at a Lutheran Church when it happened. What kind of illegitimate church would allow someone like this man in their doors?
So its right to kill someone who has lived a life and is conscience of whats going on around him but its not ok to kill something that doesnt even have a conscience mind yet? That makes absolute sense.
@DrugInducedDuck - I feel terrible because in the middle of a flood of comments about murder and abortion I start laughing because of your two comments, hilarious though.
if abortion is against the will of God… how is murdering someone the will of God?
@Meggiepoo800 - We do have laws and they need to be respected. Nonetheless, I can’t help but feel a bit of delight whenever a sinner like this man is struck down. Let’s not forget the real tragedy – an aborted baby’s life is ended before it leaves the womb. It is therefore not baptized when it dies and so you are in effect sending an innocent soul to suffer in Hell for all eternity. I can think of no more evil a sin.
@PSUnited1 - at what time while the baby is developing do you think that there is life…. so when is abortion not murder… btw… what they did to this man IS NOT RIGHT…. I do not know what they are thinking when they stand up for life and at the same time kill. I will never understand that.
I feel sorry for the guy. But I wonder, (And I’m not trying to be mean,) what made his death so important that they put it in the news, when it says that there are a lot of deaths happening to others?
It does make me wonder very much on the subject….
The number of reported and documented killings in the name of Pro-Life is actually 8. 4 of whom were doctors. Please update your post accordingly.
A man killed for his profession… in church.
A man killed for his beliefs.
Killing was never the answer.
It just inflamed a battle.
How ignorant.
No, it is not consistent. It is never ok to take a life (self-defense excluded). period.
@Nerevar_The_Incarnate - agreed.
is it consistent to kill in the name of “pro-life?”
life never has easy answers.
It’s a bit nonsensical to have a “post” about this. It’s the same old abortion debate- and abortion is an issue people will not change their beliefs on. Seeing as how fetus’ s are NOT babies and are NOT people, I don’t think you can count them as deaths. Also, the killing of this doctor was an act of terrorism hate. Abortions are usually acts of desperation.
Edit: For a much more eloquent and well written post, check out the other featured post: http://undercover-librarian.xanga.com/703420162/an-open-letter-to-the-pro-life-and-pro-choice-community/ At least that author wasn’t just trying to generate footprints.
I don’t listen to any pro lifer who doesn’t work tirelessly for the poor and the oppressed with the same energy it takes to organize pro-life demonstrations and advertising. I don’t listen to any pro lifer who hasn’t adopted at least 10 kids from their own state.
And murder is murder. You kill one guy, you kill a few million, you are still a murderer and now that guy who killed Dr. Tiller can sit and think about it for the rest of his mortal toil because he has thrown his own life away along with Dr. Tiller’s. Obviously, the sociopath didn’t give a shit about his own family, his own community, the family of Dr. Tiller, the community of Dr. Tiller, the sanctity of a house of worship or the 10 kids he could have adopted by convincing 10 women not to have an abortion. Maybe the guy was a loner who thought he’d be a hero, but all he is going to be is another number in a prison line up. Hope it was worth it.
Self righteousness is the last resort of the spiritually absent.
GOOD THINKING!
http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/
these are stories of people who wanted to have their babies.. but then tragic things happened and they aborted them.
is abortion really wrong if the baby doesn’t develop kidneys and a bladder? or the mother will die from the birth when she has several other children to care for? it’s very sad =(
The folks that are egging these people on, such as conservative media and right wing extremist are just as responsible for these murders. The inflammatory rhetoric is designed in hopes that there is a lone gunman out there that will actually carry out their will. All these whackos need to be put on some kind of terrorist database. Oh wait…they are…
So where are all those conservative fanatics that were making such a big stink about that homeland security report now? This is a terrorist act no matter how you slice it.
Strange how a pro-lifer would take away life. It’s wrong and completely hypocritical. Abortion may be wrong, but that doesn’t mean things have to be taken to the extreme. >___<
He deserved it.
This world can barely support the lives that are currently trying to scratch out an existence… I don’t see those other 50 million and counting as anything but collateral damage, and I thank goodness that those 50 million unwanted babies aren’t out there clogging up the social assistance systems. We use medicine to keep people alive longer who should be dead… We’re not allowing God to do his job by not allowing those to die who are supposed to die, so it only makes sense to artificially balance the scales by allowing the unborn to not be born. Call me hard-hearted, but if we wont let natural selection do it’s thing, then it’ll have to be un-natural selection. There’s only so much room for more people on this planet.
that is really messed up.
shot and killed in a church?people are fucking sick these days.
i’m totally for abortion, but murdering the doctor is not the way.
RIP.
Reading through these comments, I notice the abortion topic really brings out the ugly in people.
that’s painfully tragic. they’re just doing their job, and yeah, they chose their job, but it doesn’t make them heartless.
people need to be more open minded and think about the entire situation before posting every “Abortion is murder.”
and with how screwed up the world is anyway, why would you want to bring an innocent child into it?
Wow, lots of knee-jerk reactions here. If the bare facts offend so many of you people, maybe you should reconsider your assumptions.
Dan, thanks for bringing up this tough topic. It’s too bad that a lot of your (ex?)readers can’t handle it.
Ahah that is ridiculous. If it was pro-life people who killed them, they are just as bad, if not worse for killing that man. Those pro-lifers are pretty stupid if they think what they did is right. Sometimes you have no choice but to get an abortion. He was helping people, along with the doctors who do abortions. I don’t care if you are pro-life, but I don’t think abortion is wrong. Do not go bugging the women who are going to get an abortion, or have had an abortion. They don’t need any more shit. Do you think it is easy peasy lemon squeezy after you’ve had an abortion? Do you think they just get up, walk out, and forget the whole thing? Stay out of their lives.
I do not think that killing babies is right. Abortions should not be allowed to be done after 3 months. Before that the baby is about the size of a quater, and is instantly put out of it’s life.
Lose of life is lose of life. I do not like the idea of abortion. In my eyes it is killing a child who has no voice. I also believe that there are times when it has to be done. If the mother will die, or the baby may not make it any way then I understand. If a woman was raped an cannot bring herself to carry the resulting pregnancy to term, then she should have the right. I have been raped. I think that I may be strong enough to carry a resulting child but could totally understand not being able to do it.
If a person claims that it is never right for any reason to “murder” an unborn child, then they should never say that a murder of a doctor is alright. The idea is crazy.
Don’t be a moron and act like this is okay just because the “pro-choice people” have “killed” “50 million and counting.”
Pro-choice doesn’t mean pro-abortion.
Some people support a woman’s choice to have an abortion but would never have an abortion themselves or pay for someone else to have an abortion.
I’m not one of those people. I don’t give two shits if women have abortions. I think a fetus is nothing more than a parasite.
A PERSON, however, is a different story. What the so-called “pro-life” group did is commit murder. The end.
@theonly___slut - You’re a hypocrite.
Some of you here act like this man FORCED these women to have abortions. If you’re going to put the blame somewhere, at least put it in the right place.
Oh, and a fetus isn’t a human. When you cannot breathe on your own, or live in your own well… you aren’t alive.
A life for a life? That’s a great idea! Or better yet, why don’t we kill the woman who gets the abortion! Oh no wait… let’s kill the guy who knocked her up! That would solve EVERYTHING.
At least those murdered babies didn’t have to suffer life and deal with stupid people. Just think… they’re with God right now, happy and pure. We are corrupt, depressed, and are not guaranteed a spot in Heaven.
Now I’m not all for killing babies- I love babies! But how many of those pro-lifers are adopting children? How many women who get these abortions were educated properly on the before, during, and after of sex? Not enough is the answer for both questions. Instead of killing doctors, pro-lifers and pro-choicers alike need to work on better sex education and take responsibility for the sucky world we live in.
p.s. (and off topic) Children in less developed countries are in incredible pain and dying of starvation, murder, and disease. And you know what? Very few people give a shit.
I’d say live and let live, but we’re never doing that anyways.
I think everything happens for a reason. The death of an unborn child, wether accidental or on purpose, is something is meant to happen if it does. If it doesn’t…well then it was meant to live.
But maybe this is a bleak outlook from someone who thinks life is mostly a waste of time.
We’re hardly “ignoring the death of millions.” The last I checked, the abortion debate was a pretty hotly contested issue.
Pro life=laziness.
prove me wrong.
I asked the question of a car full of teenage boys the other day – if you had the chance to to kill Hitler, would you take it? He murdered countless millions of people. They asked me some good questions “can I just capture him and put him in jail”, my answer was “no, what he is doing is not illegal in his country”. They debated back and forth, intelligently I might add. When it came down to it, they all agreed that if they had the chance back in the 1940s, in Germany, if given the opportunity, they would take the shot. Why? To save lives. Hitler was a murderer. Tiller was a murderer.
One can spin it, slice it, dice it anyway you want. But the fact that he was a murderer is a fact.
The only reason I am sorry Tiller is dead is that he did not have a chance to turn his life around and denounce his killing of unborn children. I’m not looking for a debate, just thought I’d post my opinion and we all know everyone has one.
ignorant bible thumpers
1. if you’re pro-life, don’t kill people.
2. second/third-term abortions are abhorrent and most followers of the pro-choice school of thought do NOT believe they are okay.
@Mrs_LeFevour - that’s a terrible analogy, you know. adolf hitler was only one man and he himself didn’t do any of his own dirty work- he was too clever for that (and was also, physically, a very small man himself- if you look at photographs, you can easily tell that there’s no way he’s more than five feet six). you see, if nobody had listened to him, then the holocaust would never have been able to happen- he’d just have been a crazy fanatic. hitler would have been powerless without the support of mussolini and his army, all the nazi armies and all the traitors who turned the holocaust’s victims in.
i’m not belittling how terrible late-term abortions are. however, i just wanted to make a point- using your own easily-deflated analogy- that he was only doing what the women who received abortions told him to do. while both actions- requesting and providing- are quite terrible, then your own analogy (killing hitler, the requester of the genocide) would dictate that the requester (hitler by your analogy, translating into the women who received aforementioned late-term abortions) would be killed.
remember, it’s not like he forced these women to have late-term abortions- they dished out piles of their own money to pay for them. if you must point fingers, they shouldn’t be directed at the doctor. without these women, he’d have no job.
@Gerald_Washington - (first, please note that i am pro-choice.) really? prove that a woman who is “pro-life” (that is, being anti-abortion) isn’t lazy? …really? prove that a woman who- all for the sake of the life of an unborn child she didn’t even want in the first place- will endure nine months of swollen feet, morning sickness, hormonal swings, weight gain, water retention and strange cravings, then wrench out a child from a very uncomfortable place? (that is, not to mention the amount of work that actually raising the child entails- if she isn’t going to give it up for adoption.)
…really?
Oh, shut it. Abortions are directly linked a steady drop in crime. Haven’t you read Blink?
@gypsybird - http://gerald-washington.xanga.com/703615380/pro-lifelaziness/
I just wonder if the murderer thought that killing him in a house of god was appropriate. I am neither pro choice nor pro life. I think both sides tend to get overzealous.
who cares who he was. the fact that he got killed at all, let alone in his church is horrible. They say that all of his patients came to praise him. Apparently, they all believed him to be a good, compassionate man who was just trying to help his patients out
You’re a hate-filled imbecile.
Watch your step, asshole –
you could very well be the next victim of someone with deluded, ignorant ideals.
Get the fuck off my bloghub, you piece of filth.
Would you rather kill something that doesn’t know it is being killed or kill something that does know it is being killed?
Pro Choice.
I honestly don’t remember being in my mothers womb, I don’t think I would have even noticed….
save the unborn, kill the born, makes perfect sense.
im sure his family and friends would agree with you, not fucked up at all.
One murder doesn’t justify another.
@gypsybird - excellent, excellent point. It’s true…the women made the choices, he just did his job (and one in which many others in his position would refuse to do, therefore leaving his patients S.O.L)
Okay, I don’t agree with late-term abortion, but I also don’t agree with killing a living, breathing human being for his choices to be an abortion doctor.
Killing an actual person is way worse than removing an unwanted, unloved fetus from a woman’s body (again I do not count late-term abortion in this category just to be clear). Some people take this issue way too far, I remember every year in college Pro-Life organizations would put large pictures of dead (and basically dying) bodies of the me and women put into Nazi concentration camps as well as African Americans hanging in trees next to a picture of this aborted fetus (no larger than a nickel or quarter) and had the audacity to call these acts one in the same. It outrageous claims like that, that set off unstable, radicalist individuals like the man who shot this doctor.
That number (50 million) may sound bad, but as someone who has seen the totally perfect and impecable way DHS and many of the foster/adoption systems work….it was probably the better option for many of those individuals. It is highly admirable when someone goes through a pregnancy and gives up their child (I certainly couldn’t do it, it be too hard physically and emotionally…yea I’m whimp), but if EVERYONE did that….oh boy. There are enough unwanted and unloved children in the world…I think that’s sadder than abortion.
A woman has a right to choose whether or not she wants an abortion.
A person has NO right to decide to murder someone because they don’t like the job they do.
The fact that anyone would think killing the doctors who do the procedure is justifiable just horrifies me, and I honestly hope the murderer gets what he deserves.
This post really disgusts me, I literally feel like throwing up.
@Color_me_Karma - exactly. (and also, the same job could be done by illegal means, or by a coat hanger- either way, if it’s wanted there’ll always be someone to provide it for money.)
@gypsybird - definitely, another good point.
@sugar__tits -
“being able to THINK and process our existences, to feel and be aware of our feelings, this is all that makes us human.”
If you define a human by whether or not they feel and are aware of their feelings, if they can think and process their existence…are those who have brain damage not human? Are those who have mental illnesses that wipe their memories or put them under the delusion they do not exist (e.g. Cotard delusion), not human?
Another dilemma with that then is, are those who feel more emotions…more human? Are there then different levels of how human you are? If so, there would be different levels of human rights. Instead of all humans being equal and having equal rights. That seems to be a rather flimsy litmus test in determining one’s humanity. Whereas with conception — the time when a completely unique identity is formed — what had never existed before is now there, completely distinguishable from the mother. That is the least arbitrary time to define a human.
@firetyger -
If you define a human by whether or not
they feel and are aware of their feelings, if they can think and
process their existence…are those who have brain damage not human?
if someone has so much brain damage that they cannot feel and are unaware of their existence and have no hope of recovery, no. they have lost what makes them human.
Are those who have mental illnesses that wipe their memories or put
them under the delusion they do not exist (e.g. Cotard delusion), not
human?
memories alone don’t make someone human. if they can still think and feel and know that they’re alive, still human.
Another dilemma with that then is, are those who feel more
emotions…more human?
either you have emotions or you don’t.
Are there then different levels of how human
you are? If so, there would be different levels of human rights. Instead of all humans being equal and having equal rights. That seems
to be a rather flimsy litmus test in determining one’s humanity.
Whereas with conception — the time when a completely unique identity
is formed — what had never existed before is now there, completely
distinguishable from the mother. That is the least arbitrary time to
define a human.
no, birth is.
haha he was post-birth aborted.
@sugar__tits -
“if someone has so much brain damage
that they cannot feel and are unaware of their existence and have no
hope of recovery, no. they have lost what makes them human. “
The unborn fetus has complete hope of recovery, if you equate them to being the same as someone who has brain damage.
I’d argue that those who have brain damage or are in comas are no less human than you or I. People have come out of such situations and had complete recoveries even though the doctors said they had no hope. A friend of my husband’s is a living example of that. Just because someone was injured is no excuse to murder them and makes them no less human.
“either you have emotions or you don’t.”
Some people do not. Does that make them less human? Some people have more…does that make them more human? If you truly believe that emotions, thoughts, and feelings define humanity you also have to believe that having more or less of them make you more or less human. Do you see the inequality issue here?
“no, birth is. “
If the only difference is one’s location, that is not a less arbitrary time to define a human than the moment it first exists. I’ve had two children and I can tell you, nothing magical happens that all of the sudden transforms the unborn child inside me into a suddenly human child just because it was born. Your location does not define what you are.
I think it’s sad that he was killed, but on the other hand he killed others. I don’t feel like he deserved that, especially at church, this puts a bad light on prolife/anti-abortion supporters.
Yes I’m prolife, but I’m not flaming anyone else for their preferences, so I appreciate it if you don’t flame me, thank you for understanding and respecting that.
-Catie
As a woman, I think I want to have the option…. just in case. Poor guy, it wasn’t his fault, in fact, he did good, he saved girls from going to back alleyways and getting it done with a hanger…
@Mrs_LeFevour - A few premises. 1) If i had a chance to kill Hitler it would mean i had access to a time machine. 2) If i had to kill Hitler it would mean i would need access to automatic weapons. So, if those two premises are correct then i would go back to 1914 and give the Imperial German access to my automatic weapon and have Hitler killed with my favor to the Kaiser for winning him the War. With the Imperial German Army victorious in Europe during World War One i can prevent the Russian Civil War, the Bolsheviks in power in Russia and WW2 and the preservation of the Monarchical system in continental Europe.
Then i could retire to my life as an East Prussian aristocrat.
@firetyger - We’re organism that belong to the homo sapient species – that’s what makes us human.
@LiLy_Of_FrAnCe - The Freakanomics study has already been debunked.
Choices are made for a reason. Too bad we can’t have all the reasons to even justify the question..
I believe what I believe the majority thinks; that there is no possible justification in this man’s murder. He didn’t break nay laws and he was just trying to make a living like the rest of us. It’s not like he was a cult leader with a vindictive mind who’s goal in life was to stop birth. He probably has children. He probably has a family.
I understand and accept pro-life people’s opinions and their beliefs, but will never understand how any of them find’s this murder fair.
Also, there has been question on my mind. It is not a accusation or implication, it is just curiosity :
“Of all those out there who are against abortion, how many of you personally do believe it is wrong and how many of you only believe it is wrong because your religion told you that it was?”
I fail to see how anyone believes that killing doctors who provide abortions will somehow stop them from taking place. All religious and ethical reasons aside, it does nothing to stem the tide. Killing one doctor or bombing one abortion clinic is like shoveling sand against the tide, it’s entirely futile.
Ethically I find a lot wrong with shooting a 67 year old man at Sunday service. Not to mention the fact that I’m pretty sure that killing anyone inside a House of God is blasphemy in itself.
@TheOneOfShadows - You’re logic is staggering….You are gutsy, and my hat goes off to you! You can borrow my gun, and I’ll load it for you. You’ll want to put the barrel right under your chin. That way when you squeeze the trigger you’ll be sure to end your life with the first shot.
I’m so proud that you’ve chosen to be the first to offer your life in the service of helping the overloaded world!!
3 CHEERS FOR “TheOneOfShadows”!!!
*Said with tongue firmly placed in cheek*
Apples and oranges, my dear Dan.
dude. you’re wrong man.
let say a girl got pregnant. and she’s not ready for the baby. and lets jst say she is force to have that baby. Think about the enviroment the baby would grow up on. in the ghettos area, without a father, mums to busy working, taking drugs. what kinda child would be brought up. 1st of all, we’re creating more criminals. and problems for society2nd of all the child wouldn’t even have a great life.
so i dont get how its wrong to abort if, u’re sure u’re not ready for it.n ppl would go . ow put yourself in the shoe of tht baby. would u want to be aborted
1st of all to all this people. they dont noe how to think that way yet . and they wont know anything about the life they going through neither their own existence. So stop tryna covinve people with those kinda sympathy .”put yourself in the baby shoe bs”
I believe neither are the right thing to do. However, this brings up just cause. Yeah, we don’t want to see people dying, but would you rather see 3 people dead or 50 million plus?
@LyricallyCharged - I honestly can’t believe she’d stoop to that level. I’ve been following the comment thread, and this LoBornlite is absolutely ridiculous. You have my apologies on behalf of the rest of us decent humans.
@truthaintrelative - The “bare facts”, in this case, are completely subjective…
@two_sixteen - I agree. He enjoys this too much.
@another_rebel_without_a_cause - his quota is set for all of them. He’s trying a new method of fame. “The race to zero.”
Fuck this shit, Dan. The numbers aren’t the point. Obviously abortion terminates SOMETHING. Whether or not that is a living person yet or not is up for grabs. Doctors are only doing what they are paid to do. It’s their job. It’s a job that most people (including me) would rather not exist, but where there is a need, there is a market.
If people didn’t WANT abortions, they wouldn’t be GETTING them. That’s just the reality of it. Furthermore, because there is a market, there will be a need for that market to be satiated. Just because drugs are illegal does not stop kids from smoking up every day at their schools. No. There is a market, and so, it becomes lucrative to fill that market. Abortion clinics are run in the same sterile environment as any other doctors office. It is safer for a woman to go there. The moment you shut down legitimized clinics is when you see the death count spark higher when the backstreet abortionists are back in buisiness. This is not to say that they are out of buisiness now though. Why? Because with the picket signs and stigma of having that abortion, women see those “other” clinics as the alternative – offering the same service with more anonymity. And so…she leaves injured. In many cases, she may not leave at all.
Killing abortionists does not mean you are saving babies. People need to step down off their high horses. If you are against abortions – simply don’t have one. That’s the biggest statement you can make toward the system. When the market dissapates, so does the buisinessman. Its just simple economics.
With all that said, I’m completely open toward womens rights, and believe that we, as americans, have the freedom of choice. That baby, fetus, “bundle of cells”, or whatever you want to call it, is part of that woman, and is so subject to her choice. And thats the ultimate karma to whoever made that shitty saying: “I brought you into this world, I can take you out of it.”
@nkleyva - Yep!
“Pro-choice killings: 0, unless you count parasite removal”
Fixed.
I personally believe that abortion is murder and wrong. But I don’t think that it’s right for us as pro-life supporters to take the law into our own hands. What this man lived on was death, but I don’t think we should sink to his level for justice.
RIP
@hunkyanonymous - “put yourself in the baby’s shoes” Well, if you look at it from that angle, then you have no choice but to let the baby live. And the excuse that the baby will grow up in a terrible environment is an outdated claim. An unmarried mother can now go to college for free and also has easy access to free child care. And if she doesn’t wish for that, she can always put the baby up for adoption. I’m an adopted child myself, despite pro-choice whining that an adopted child will feel some “huge gap in his/her heart for their real parents” I love my adopted parents more than air. I will be eternally grateful to my real mother for respecting my right to life as a fetus but it’s my adoptive parents who will always be my mom and dad. And another outdated claim against adoption is that the baby will be forced to live in a nasty environment. Wrong, in order to adopt you must have a certain income, a decent house, and a thorough background check. They don’t just hand the babies out to the highest bidder. I myself am now graduated from high-school and attending college this fall, In high school I was a two time state champion with good grades, NOT a confused heartbroken teen that wishes he wasn’t alive.
I am sorry his life was taken.
I am not sorry Tiller will take no more lives himself.
The ends do not justify the means since murder is murder. Only difference here is one type of murder is state sanctioned and the other is not.
Anyone supporting adortion doesn’t deserve to breathe. Think of all the lives that have been cancelled and how that has affected us. How many einsteins have we killed? What greatness might these millions of lives have acheived? Any reason given to support it is just another rationalization for murder. God sees all and many will be punished, as this doctor here was. You reap what you sow.
This guy was a murderer for a living.
Instant karma.
When did it become okay to call yourself pro-life and advocate murder? Pro-life does NOT just mean anti-abortion. It is NEVER, EVER, EVER okay to take the life of another.. no matter how small and no matter what they did. No one has any right to judge George Tiller. If you think the death of George Tiller is okay, you better never refer to yourself as pro-life again.
@elzuria - someone’s going to do it if it’s not him. i don’t know where people are getting this logic that because he’s dead a bunch of lives have been saved. women are just going to find other murderers to kill their children.
That is the most disgusting thing I have ever heard. How dare you weigh the life of one against the “potential lives” of unborn children. And for those of you who say, “Abortion is terrible; it isn’t right to murder someone either, but I’m not crying over it.” Well, that is just ignorant and disgusting. And when a comment like that is posted, coldly, as if to shrug your shoulders and say, “meh, I didn’t do it. It wasn’t me. Let’s all just move on and focus on my issue of concern.” It proves that people do deserve to be generalized and “branded.” I have my reservations about abortion, but I have a hard time understanding the logic behind such movements as the pro-lifers. Some of these comments say, “what he did was worse, these were full term babies…” Well then lets just hand out machine guns to all the “moral” citizens then, good call.
it is consistent. abortion is not illegal, shooting someone is. you’re a dumbass.
@Beautiful_Disaster_74 - I agree with your whole statement 100%
I am sorry but what the pro-life person did is still wrong, and is murder, that and apparent hypocrite, to be protesting about fetus, when killing a doctor whose job is to do abotions, while abortions may or may not be wrong to do, murder is. (I really don’t know where the line of life begins) however, for a person to be a hypocrite and a murderer is wrong. I Hope he goes to jail. At least I know that murder is wrong, and will never take a life, that, and I still believe in choice, that women should decide whether or not to have an abortion. That and I think guys (like you, Dan) should not tell women what they should think, mind you, I like having my right as a woman to make my own decision about my body, thank you very much!
RIP for the doctor!
@Beautiful_Disaster_74 - I am with your statement, because I believe that abortion is complex, I believe in pro-choice, but I also believe that a baby should be terminated at 3 months, not at 9 months ( I believe medically 3 months is better than 9 months).
You should never weigh the live of one against the other.
You can’t add and subtract human lifes! –from Tim Marcoh (Fullmetal Alchemist)
@literateand_stylishx - agree with u
That doctor was doing a service to women who, in their hardest hour of need, went to someone they trusted for help. I’m pro-choice and what I do with my body is my concern.
Dr. Tiller didn’t deserve to die over this.
are you serious right now? There is nothing wrong with stopping a beating heart? the only difference between the doctor and an unborn child is that we can’t quite see an unborn child while it’s in the uterus. You can’t deny scientific fact that an unborn child, is indeed, alive. How selfish of a human being to end another’s life because “it’s just not quite convenient.”
Murder is the one thing I despise, whether it’s the murder of a doctor, or the murder of an unborn human.
p.s: to all you pro choicers who say it’s a woman’s choice to choose because it’s her body:
it’s NOT her body… it’s the body that’s inside of her’s.
@kataphraktoi17 - I agree that being homo sapiens means we are humans. The problem people have is defining when an unborn child is defined as it’s own human rather than just being an undefineable part of the mother’s body. My argument is that it happens in the beginning with conception. It has it’s own unique DNA mapping with a definite sex and is thus a separate human organism. Call it fetus or whatever…it’s a separate human from the mother and has human rights. The fact that it is inisde another human does not change that.
What are your thoughts?
and then the tadpole jumped into the grapefruit and then she just sliced it up and ate it as a snack ! the whole grapefruit ! bloody murderous fiend ! oh wait , that wasn’t a living human . oh yeah . just a squiggley caught in some pulp . no . rephrase . instead lets have a poster child for abstinence … a former i-had-unprotected-sex-but-i-am-holy pig with lipstick [ wait , that's just hockey moms right ? ] so how about a pig with eyeliner , or perhaps a gopher with a little blush … yeah , we’ll give her some fur to wear and a rifle and she can hang from the school rafters and shoot any one that appears horny . problem fucking solved .
Omg D:
@fatal_mess - Umm, yeah that is what that means. Women have the right to choose what happens to their bodies and that also means what’s going on inside them. Sorry if you’re clueless to that.
I have had a tubal pregnancy and had to terminate it. Clearly you’ve never had to make that kind of call so you are even less qualified to answer this post.
This man is not a sinner. He preformed a service for someone. I personally dont believe in hell. Im not a Christian. I dont think there is such thing as hell or satan. If anything, the baby’s soul was just born again to someone who actually wanted it. And if Im correct, and I think I am, its a sin to kill someone, is it not? So this man who killed the doctor is going to hell. The baby was not yet born, which therefore means that it was not yet a person. Love thine emenies. Just because this doctor did something that this man didnt agree with does not give him the right to take the law into his own hands. So who is more in the wrong? The man who murdered a doctor for doing his job or the doctor who was doing what he took an oath to do? Having opposing views on something is NOT a justification to take a man’s life. Regardless of what he had done.
this pisses me off beyond reason. Who cares if he is an abortion docter. you brought a WEAPON into a house of GOD and KILLED, (SINNED!!) a man who not only was in the church but ushering. im not a religious man but wow thats pretty pathetic, abortion doctor or not. Hes a doctor. Deal with it.
@firetyger - First off, i’m a secularist and a materialist and i’m pro-life. It’s a logical fallacy – a non sequitor to describe an organism by a particular faculty of that organism. At the point of conception a new human is created. A human life has intrinsic moral worth and thusly should be protected and ergo abortion is morally wrong. However, the pro-choice side describe human worth not in the intrinsic value of human life but in the particular faculties of that organism – thusly, you have the pro-choice obsession with cognitive awareness, etc… Their position is that killing a human is not morally wrong until that human has x, y, z and becomes a person with full moral worth.
The problem is that, the pro-choice side is essentially saying “i came into being before I existed as “I” and secondly,”my body is not “I,” The essence of the body is a mere sub-personnel reality that has no intrinsic worth can be discarded (in abortion and euthanasia) and be used as the mind see fit (homosexuality, drugs, alcoholism, etc..) In order for this to be correct, you’ll have to prove the body and mind are separate realities – that the mind is not dependent on the physical body. However, the course of modern science is that cognitive functions are dependent on a material body – thus cognitive awareness or whatever they’ll use to define personhood is a biological process. Since all those faculties they use to describe moral worth is dependent on a physical body, a person or human should have full moral worth when that body first comes into existence – at conception. As a grown adult i am the same organism that existed in my mother’s womb.
That’s just sad. Whether or not abortion is wrong… he doesn’t deserve to be killed. Especially at church. That’s heart wrenching.
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? WOW. So, basically, what you’re saying is, since pro-abortionists remove unborn, not alive, barely even fetus’, its OKAY that a GROWN MAN was shot and killed, because he performed abortions….
So Pro-life you are…..
I think it’s terrible he was killed for what he does, especially since he was at church, a place where he apparently felt safe enough not to be protected from idiots like this that would try to kill him anywhere else.
sdhjklajsdf
Your post is biased. This would be a compelling argument otherwise, however, pro-choicers do not necessarily believe the fetus is ‘life’ and abortion would not technically be ‘killing’.
So you are reinforcing the argument of the pro-lifers, and provoking a lot of pro-choice eye rolls.
Not to mention that this absolutely the most hypocritical pile of steaming bs I’ve ever heard of in my life.
Life sure is precious, and nobody should kill their child, but they don’t have a problem taking a grown man’s life. Not to mention that many pro-lifers are pro-death penalty.
Regardless of the ‘death count’ here, it’s still hypocritical on all counts.
@JadedJanissary - To the point. I agree.
I also must say that I think your blog is original, but extremely overrated. I think you’re offensive, biased, and rude. I do like the intelligent comments you leave on some people’s pages, but I think you need to chill out and smoke a bowl or something.
In the Casey Case the Supreme Court declared that at the heart of liberty is the right “to declare one’s own concept of existence.” It’s fortunate for the Supreme Court and everybody else that that right dose not translate over into the natural world.
@ThA_sLo_1 -
If an embryo and a fetus are not alive then what exactly is the process of gestation? The process of an inanimate object coming into existence and becoming alive or a dead organism becoming a live? Could you please elaborate.
Or, could it be an organism that is alive reaching a particular stage of development and maturity?
@CelestialTeapot -
50 Million deaths seems like genocide to me.
That is more 6 million deaths than the Holocaust.
More than 105,000 deaths in the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Murder is never right.
But do not tell me that this is not genocide.
@AllthePerfect_Words - It’s not genocide.
Abortion is not a systematic murder of willful, conscience human beings. Abortion is individual mothers exercising the right over their body in terminating a mindless clump of cells.
I didn’t read your blog about this, but I heard about the story the other day and basically just said that the guy who shot the man was just following him and performing “late term abortion”. This was just a really late term one. =]
I was around the church he was shot at !
But anyways…you cannot get rid of abortion by getting rid of an abortionist…in a church.
It’s like the war in iraq. We are supposedly fighting for peace.. Ironic much? Kill the man who kills the babies, but it’s not like he’s the only one. One man and millions of babies died, and even then, I still think it’s a woman’s choice.
Yes, it IS when that is a LIVING AND BREATHING HUMAN AND NOT A FETUS.
What exactly is someone like you, besides bitching about abortion because it makes YOU FEEL bad for the unborn fetus, doing to help in the world to education people about UNWANTED PREGNANCY?
Are you doing ANYTHING to HELP FOSTER any of the UNWANTED CHILDREN of the world, or to help FEED OR CARE FOR THEM???
OR are you just bitching about abortion being a woman’s personal right because you need some soapbox to stand on?
and it isn’t “PRO LIFE”, that was a term CREATED to keep EMOTIONALLY MOTIVATED and IRRATIONAL people, like yourself from the REAL ISSUE of
PRO CHOICE or NO CHOICE
THE GOVERNMENT IN YOUR WOMB.
@Such_Were_You - I believe you meant to use ‘your’. I wouldn’t have mentioned it if you weren’t such a jackass. Apparently the ethic of reciprocity is no longer encouraged.
To be honest, if the first step to human extinction was a bullet in my head, I wouldn’t think twice about it.
I think everyone is pro-life. I don’t think any one on either side can be called pro-death.
Some times abortion is the best thing for the child if the family can’t take care of the child. To subjugate a child to a bad life after he/she is born is more irresponsible.
“pro-life” advocates should consider what the child have to go through after birth when the parent is unable to raise him/her and has to put the child up for adoption or into a foster home. I think that would be more cruel than not being born.
@kataphraktoi17 - Well said. I agree…we do have the same value and worth from when we first come into existence throughout our entire lives. Regardless of what may happen to our body or mind through injury or degeneration with age, it does not devalue our worth as a human being.
@Orlando - Agreed! Being pro-choice don’t make you pro- death. And being so called Pro-life doesn’t make the person really pro-life, or else more would be done for the children that is born from a mother who doesn’t have the ability to raise that child.
you get what you give..
or take away rather.
lmao is it bad I see this as ironic?!?
STUPID
what does this accomplish? He was living, breathing… had a life of his own. I don’t necessarily think it’s okay to have abortions but think about this… the fetuses haven’t even had the taste of life and aren’t breathing yet(from what I’ve read)… because you can only get an abortion to a certain extent
I know we’re not here to discuss pro-life/pro-choice but if it helps you see my side… if I were to EVER get an abortion, it would have to be within the first or second month of pregnancy because at that point, I don’t believe that the fetus is really alive just yet. Even afterwards, I don’t think they’re living, that’s not till birth, but something about waiting that long makes me feel as though it would be getting used to life? idk
but this man was already far into life… and someone took it because of the lives not even lived…
Maybe he gave an abortion to someones daughter and she got an infection and died so her mother or father killed him. It doesnt always have to be about pro-life or pro-choice people. It could be about pro-dont fucking kill my daughter.
Murder is illegal. Removing a fetus is neither murder nor illegal.
…almost easier to understand why so many wars have been caused out of religious motivation…
it is easy to understand how pro-choice people condone his murder… they don’t believe abortion is killing… that is the disputed claim… so what I don’t get it how pro-life people can justify killing in order to stop killing… it may stop one man but it just inflames the other side, alienates the middle group, and even the law-makers and enforcers, who–when it really comes down to it–have the power to influence this issue, can’t be supportive and have to condone because it is an unlawful action… it just doesn’t seem justifiable or, really, logical.
I’m pro-life but I think it was truly despicable to kill that doctor, especially while he was attending church services! Yes, he performed murders on a daily basis, but it is not up to us to judge him and then mete out punishment him for his crimes. God is in charge of judging each and every one of us; no one else is qualified! So let’s leave it to God. We are not qualified. I’m kind of thinking that he maybe wasn’t understanding what church is about, though…
I think it was wrong for whoever to kill this man because he does abortions. It’s the people’s choice. I guess you can say Pro-Choice. He has [ had ) to make a living. Regardless, nobody can judge him for it. Nobody can hate him for it. This man had to walk around with body guards for crying out loud ! For all the “ Pro – Lifers ” how can you be all for life and such, but accept the fact that this once living and breathing human being was killed ?! Get real. You can’t say, “ oh well, a life for a life. ” No! That was a person, who served his community and supported his family the best way he could. Of course abortion is not always the answer, I’m not saying they’re right. But for a man, a human being, to be killed in Church?! In one place where he should be able to feel safe is insane.
@PSUnited1 - put your hand on your chest. you feel that? it’s your heartbeat.
you know what you’ve got in common with a fetus?
that heartbeat.
or maybe you don’t have a heart. ’cause you sure sound like a heartless bastard to me.
oh and by the way. maybe you’re too dumb to read the news story. but he’s a partial-birth abortion doctor. which means he was one of the only three doctors in the US that would do an abortion after 21 weeks. research it. partial-birth abortion is disgusting. it’s revolting. i’m sure you wouldn’t have wanted your parents to decide to tear out and puree your brain, and snap your spinal cord so you’re dead, and then pull you out of your mother’s uterus literally in pieces.
’cause that’s how we all wanna go, you know.
Is that a hypocrite, to believe in pro-life but to kill another? I guess they missed the meaning behind the word pro-life.
I think killing a grown man is much worst than getting an abortion.
@Pure_Ecstasy - Not all of us support that. For me, it’s one thing if you keep having a miscarriage because a certain hormone level is low and you need a shot or a pill to help a fertilized egg implant in your uterus. It’s a totally different thing when you fertilized a whole slew of eggs in a petri dish, only use a handful, and destroy the others (or sometimes even just throw them out with the medical waste).
This is a strange case because this abortion doctor was a strange man.
Either way, murder is never a good option.
@Olyachka - Strong points.
Still, it’s horrifying.
Just wondering…
What kind of a church lets an abortion doctor attend without consequence?
My Pastor would have had his ass excommunicated.
lol wow you’re not bias at all…
wow that’s unreal. damn religious people and there darn beliefs. j/k haha i love messing around. but no that is quite insane. Just because of someones belief against abortions they shall murder an innocent man?! that’s trully wrong, that suspect shall be pounished for his wrongfull actions. Others need to realize abortions is one person chioce to do so and that abortions are yet leagal in the U.S. People need to stop killing others because of what they believe whether it”s physically or mentally.
@SerenaDante - It would be a folly to use legalism as an illustration of social complaince. If we were to consider the moral good to be legal then we would have to consider that slavery was once legal and to deprive a slave owner their Constitutional right to own a slave was illegal. So, those who were responisible for the Underground Railroad were in fact criminals under the judicial procedures of the time. We would have to declare Harriet Tubman a criminal and the Underground Railroad as a criminal enterprise. In a more modern sense, we would have to say Jim Crow laws were legal aswell and those who did not abide by them were outside of the law. So once again we would have to declare Rosa Park a criminal.
You would either have to declare those who opposed an unjust law as criminals or that unjust laws can be transgressed and ignored.
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It is inconsistent really… to say you’re anti-murder and then to murder is hypocritical, regardless of the numbers.
But then I’m pro-choice, so it’s possible my opinions are biased… it’s still wrong to kill a man for doing his job, isn’t it?
omg shut the fuck up people. it’s so fucking easy to see that a man was MURDERED. it is obviously WRONG. what the fuck are we arguing about.
@lilbit - bullshit. just because the child is inside her, doesn’t give her the right to kill off a human life. Why doesn’t the young woman (or man) inside of the woman have a right to decide what is done to her (or his) body? It’s called “Equal rights for unborn women.” Do you really think that child would choose death over life? Would YOU choose death over life if you were in their position? Instances like a tubal pregnancy where both lives are on the line are different. i’m sorry you had to go through that, and I can only imagine the difficulty you had to bare. I’m talking about mothers who find having a baby at the time “inconvenient” for whatever reason.
@Orlando - Um… yes. yes I am doing something to help hungry children, thank you. I give $$ every month to a starving child in Indonesia…. that $$ helps not only him, but his family with financial needs, clothing, shelter, food, and his right to a good education. I can’t help every child in the world. But if we all help a little, the world could be a better place.
And for the record, I know many, many people who do the same thing.. and are PRO LIFE.
and what’s with this PRO CHOICE or NO CHOICE thing? I’ll throw it right back at you and tell you I’m going to call myself a person that is PRO LIFE… and call you a person that is PRO DEATH. but call it what you will… i have no problem with you calling me NO CHOICE. because who am i to judge whether a life should be terminated? none of us are. not even the mother “who’s body it affects.” It’s not HER life she’s calling the shots on. it’s a completely SEPERATE life that happens to be inside her.
@firetyger - I think it is a sexual/medical right for a woman to abort any creature that she does not want growing inside of her, human or otherwise. When does the fetus becomes a human is not the issue or the question, I don’t actually agree with laws that outlaw any abortion, even late term. But I’m willing concede to this blatant control over the lives of women simply to please the vast majority who would otherwise outlaw this woman’s right.The issue is a human rights issue, and it the human woman and her ability to control her body that I care about.
They (you) can decide for yourself if abortion is moral or immoral. I just don’t believe that these beliefs and strictures of control should be placed on woman. Let woman decide, let individuals decide. Again, even if I believed that fetuses were equivalent to humans, I think they’d be subject to the decisions of their incubators (that is the females growing the fetus) and those decisions include the decision to terminate pregnancy.
@Beautiful_Disaster_74 - Took the words right out of my mouth . Awesome job.
“Pro-life killings: 3
Pro-choice killings: 50 million and counting”
Ridiculous
heh, i lol’ed when that old fart got blowed away, and think it’s kool to murder abortioners and abortresses, it is because they are a bunch of retarded gay babies who suck
both are wrong. I was in Wichita that weekend for the kansas state track meet but never heard anything till i got back home. Wierd!
As said before, they’re both wrong. People need to mind their own fucking business.
And where are you getting these statistics from? There are sure as hell more than 3 pro life idealist who have murdered. And what the hell, are pro-choicers everyone else in the world who kills? It seems to me that you’re being very biased about the entire situation with those numbers.
People act like the only abortions he performed were late term ones. Not true.
I think late term abortions are horrible, but hey, if I was pregnant
and I found out my kid had spina bifida or down syndrome or some shit,
I’d get an abortion rather than live the rest of my life with a
severely disabled child.
Maybe if all the radical pro-life Christians are sooo against abortion,
they should go and adopt some effed up disabled kids, because that’s
who they’re saving! Seriously, if you’re not willing to adopt a baby
who would have otherwise been aborted, than STFU.
George Tiller was a full grown human being with a family that loved him. He provided a much needed service to women. I will mourn for him.
I despice abortion, these childern did not have a choise. A beating heart consitutes life in my book. For someone to intrude into the womb and suck that child out in pieces to me is unthinkable. I dn’t support killing the doctor but what comes around goes around. I know for a fact that the minute the doctor died he opened his eyes in HELL and he could see all the childern he killed in heaven. God’s word is never changing. Killing of the unborn is just plan wrong its no my way but Gods
the big difference between prolife and prochoice is this:
pro-life: you want everyone to see things your way and believe the same way you do
pro-choice: you leave it up to the individual person to choose.
everyones views are different, dont force yours on someone else
At least he was given the chance to live…
-R.I.P. 50 million and counting who weren’t.
Ya know? I’m a religious person and I DO with all my heart believe abortion is wrong, but at the same token, it’s the women’s choice whether she wants the baby or not. Her body, her life, her choice. Now I would NEVER do that to my baby, but that’s just me.
But how come pro-choice people seem to be blaming it on the “crazy right wing”, as I was told recently. I’m walking out of the Library and three kids in my high school are talking about it and one boy goes, “those crazy right-wingers!” I go, “excuse me?”
Yes, murder is wrong and truth be told, the man was killed and that’s not right. But at the same token, it’s whoever murder the person. IT’S THEIR FAULT! Not the “whole” group of anti-abortion peoples.
Idk if any of that made sense. But I said it. rofl. Okay. Byeaa.
Ya’ll have a great day.
do people seriously think killing all abortion doctors will dampen the abortion controversy? just plain stupid.
what do you mean by pro life killings and pro choice killings?
I just read this on another forum and it disgusted me so much I wanted to throw up. I know that sounds a little dramatic reaction, but as a woman, I just can’t imagine someone telling me what I can and cannot do with my body. These supposed “pro-life” a-holes (and that’s the nicest word I can find for them) basically want to ruin the lives of millions of girls in the States (and around the world if they could) by forcing them to carry to term a pregnancy which could either:
a) medically jeapordize them
b) ruin their future
c) run them into poverty
d) produce a deformed or crak baby
e) etc.
f) all of the above.
I personally would be devastated if I didn’t have the choice to have an abortion if I ever needed one. I admire Tiller’s efforts to provide a place for women to come to to get help should they ever need it. His death was brutal, and ironic, really, since he was killed in the very church upon whose commandments these people try to outlaw abortion.
“pro” life indeed… more like “anti-choice” – I think that suits them better. Here’s hoping abortion won’t become illegal. Abortion is a personal choice. No one will force you to have one, but you CAN”T force someone to NOT have one.
Land of the free, right?
@darkgreenwriter - totally agree with you.
@Pink_TeaCups - I think the OP means:
pro-life killings = # of pro-lifers killed by pro-choice people (which is significantly lower, btw).
and pro-choice killings = # of pro-choice killed by pro-life people (in the millions, imagine that).
Zygotes =/= People.
Every consideration of the beginnings or endings of life is different depending upon its specific social context and situation. One side’s argument would completely differ than another side’s argument just based on the personal definitions that one gives in defining life or death of a person. One, in favoring death or life, would not invalidate the other if you agree to consider both equally important to the very existence of human beings.
I think the greater argument surrounding this murder case is simply the question – What defines a person?
“Philosophers can offer conceptual clarification, but not even the most elegant philosophical argument will ever resolve the question of what a person is. Nor will personhood be resolved in the embryology laboratory or in the courts, for personhood is destined to be played forever on the disputatious fields of social practice.” – Lynn M. Morgan
Simply put – beliefs differ and beliefs matter.
Taking a person’s life is only wrong if you believe it to be so. But how do you even define a person? We all started as cells. Do you count a sperm + egg fusing together = person? Or do you call a walking talking human being a person? Do you consider a person to be when they take their first breath of air? Or when you can see a palpitating heart within a mother’s womb?
Funny how we seek truth when there simply is no truth – only what you believe to be true.
PS. Question for you:
Is it consistent to say you care about the fetus when you never met the fetus or cared about its outcome? And then ignore the wrong done to a living human being who has relations to other existing human beings, such as yourself?
Your question is short sighted.
No offense.
LOL~
I swear to God. Humans in general are just stupid. We’re busy killing each other in a bunch of countries and you guys worry about a FETUS enough to shoot somebody that is simply giving someone a choice.
If I ever get my girl pregnant, we both agreed on abortion. We don’t have the funds for a baby but you know what, we love sex. Deal with it. Then there’s the question of whether or not a person who is raped, becomes pregnant, should give birth.
I encourage whoever is “pro-life” to try to take me down. I need some excitement in my life and I’m 100% sure if I shed blood, it won’t be alone.
The MAIN point here is that Christ AND the Ten Commandments told us NOT to kill either unborn babies or abortion doctors!!
What is so hard to understand about:
THOU SHALT NOT KILL!!
And this teaching applies equally to unborn babies and abortion doctors!!
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yet…cool .
Yes.
@kaybaby666 - totally agree.
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