April 25, 2010

  • Everybody Draw Mohammed Day

     

    An artist is in the news after she drew a sketch making May 20th “Everybody Draw Mohammed Day.”

     

    (This photo is just printed from the news item for discussion purposes and is not meant to disrespect Muslims).

    It was a response to South Park editing one of the episodes because of death threats from a Muslim group.  She said she was not trying to offend Muslims.  Instead she said she “felt so much passion” about the message that Comedy Central sent by editing South Park.

    The artist, Molly Norris, said “the campaign was not meant to disrespect any religion, but rather meant to protect people’s right to express themselves.”  Here is the link:  Link

    What do you value more, respect for the religion of others or protecting freedom of expression?

     

Comments (200)

  • I value freedom of expression more than respect for religion. I don’t expect anyone to respect my religion unless they claim to practice it.

  • freedom of expression

  • freedom of expression :)

  • are death threats not a form of expression?  

  • freedom of expression. people get offended too easily.if you don’t like what you see, look away.

  • Seeing as Islam is a central part of my life, I will not disrespect my beliefs for someone else’s “freedom of expression,” no matter how much people find it to be trendy (regarding the May 20th ordeal).

    However if you all wish to draw the Holy Prophet, I wouldn’t be all flabbergasted because it’s what I can see others doing since they do not hold the same beliefs I hold, but I would expect better from people who don’t mean “disrespect” since I don’t go around violating others people’s beliefs because it’s my “freedom of expression.”
    Of course these are my beliefs and I mean no disrespect.

  • They should be one and the same. We should all respect each others’ rights to practice both religion and freedom of speech, otherwise someone’s rights get trampled on.

  • the latter.

  • @Aaliyaan - right on.

  • Expression.

    Freedom of religion is an aspect of freedom of expression; but freedom of expression is still important without freedom of religion. Freedom of religion without freedom of expression, well.

    Besides, one is free to believe and practice that it is wrong to draw Mohammed, but it is wrong (more wrong, I believe) to insist everyone in the world believe and practice the same…and it is most wrong to threaten those who don’t.

  • Dear Dan,

    Religion should be respected, as should freedom of expression. However, there’s an old saying that one’s capability to raise one’s arm should stop when it gets close to hitting another in the face. (I’m paraphrasing, and I think the original quote is attributed to Abraham Lincoln.) I am all for freedom of expression, but as a sometime artist who hopefully respects the wishes of others as well, I would never attempt to “draw Mohammad.” (PBUH)  It just shouldn’t be done. (IMHO)

    Michael F. Nyiri, poet, philosopher, fool

  • i would think freedom of expression incorporates religious expression as well
    so the latter choice. 

  • These Muslims that threaten to KILL just because a cartoonist draws Mohammed are still living in the Middle Ages, at best. They need to get that stick out of their ass and move on .

  • How is them making fun of Mohammed any different from making fun of Christ why should they sell out to Muslims if you sell out to one you should have to apologize for all of it

  • I value making a controversial stand in order to grab 15 minutes of fame the most.

  • “they” being southpark/comedy central

  • Expression.

  • Expression.

    The message South Park was trying to send with those two episodes, is that no one person can be immune to ridicule.

    I don’t think the episode promotes discrimination, but just because he is sacred to one person does not mean he is to them. They weren’t making fun of Mohammed and the efforts of the town people to disguise him (and fool the gingers by actually placing Santa in the bear suit.) I think even demonstrated some respect for the religion.

    The same episode features Buddha snorting Cocain, but I don’t think they got their panties in a bunch. Mohammed was actually never censored in the original Super Best Friends episode and it’s even re-run with him uncensored. No one got uptight about censoring his image until that cartoonist was murdered. (Sorry, his name escaped me.)

  • Everyone here has been so quick to say EXPRESSION! Selfish ass people.

  • No one edits jokes made to laugh at Jesus, Buddha, Moses, Zoroaster, Odin, Zeus, or any other marginally religiously-associated figure. So we place one religion over another when it comes to free speech? Ridiculous. Christians put up with zombie Jesus jokes every Easter, Raptor Jesus jokes at Christmas, and a million Mary Magdalene jokes throughout the rest of the year, all of which, under a strict and ultra-conservative interpretation of the Bible, could be construed as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (which is unforgivable). Regardless of how much respect one thinks religion should get, in the modern game of rights, they all should stand equal.

  • @pianomusicchick - They should be one and the same.

    What the hell does this even fucking mean?

    We should all respect each others’ rights to practice both religion and freedom of speech, otherwise someone’s rights get trampled on.

    Do you even fucking understand the prompt? The context is Islam, the topic are the Fundamentalist nuts who threaten violence for ther mere depiction of Muhammad. It’s either or: Accede to campaigns of fear and “respect” Islam or cartoon-ize or criticize Islam as we may Christianity, Shintoism, or atheism.

  • If you can’t exercise respect in the freedom of expression then you stand to lose that freedom. Freedom without respect is nothing.

    Freedom is EARNED through respect!

  • Christianity doesn’t really have any rules like this, so it’s hard for me to say. Some of the greatest artists in history took a crack at drawing God and Jesus, and many of those works are now legendary. The fact that Muslims willingly say that Mohammed was a human prophet of Allah and not divine makes me wonder why it’s so taboo to depict him visually. Unless they fear that that leaves him vulnerable to parody.

    While I think that death threats for depicting the Prophet are way too fanatical, I believe that, when borrowing someone else’s holy characters, there should be respect for that religion (even if you have none). Of course, my religion’s most important figures have been depicted insultingly innumerable times, so now I rarely ever notice it anymore.

  • Yes.

    To clarify–freedom of speech is a prerequisite for our kind of society–but so is rational co-existence.  Things like the plight of female victims of honor killings and female circumcision need to be showcased–and that can’t happen if some obscure mullah in Asia can issue a fatwa, and some devout follower who fancies himself a holy warrior strives to carry out his mandate a hemisphere away.  On the other hand, our peers who school their kids, do their jobs, buy their groceries, attend (or not) their mosque as we attend (or not) our churches and synagogues.  And if they feel marginalized or scarlett-lettered by having the founder of their faith continually held up to some kind of depiction, they’re just going to become more insular.

    This is like WW2 in a way.  The Nazis felt they had a clear mandate to dominate the world.  So did the imperial warlords of Japan.  That did not translate into the German or Japanese citizens of this country being sympathizers or sleeper agents.  And the Wahabi sect, among others, of Islam has the same mandate, according to their reading of the Quran.  To skirt that issue is to bury our head in the sand.  That does not translate into every Arab American, or Muslim–whatever their ethnic background–being a Jihadist.  Both these issues need to be understood.

    I am told that the authoritative figures in Islam, both religious and civil, have yet to definitively disavow the actions of the radicals.  That ball is in their court.  We shouldn’t feel obligated to let our guard down until they do.  Imam Chirri, the spiritual head of the Shiites in my Detroit MI area, took that step following 9-11, and has been a voice of moderation for years.  (I don’t know if he is still living).

    In what James Michner used to call the marketplace of ideas, there should be the free interchange of views.  This will entail massive social upheaval in the Islamic community.  In many Muslim countries, it is illegal to become a Jew or Christian.  Christendom went through the same thing.  Converting from Catholicism to Protestantism–or visa versa–or to Judaism–was at one time illegal, both in Europe and various parts of America.

    Then there is the biggie issue–the Holy Land and the existance of Israel.  I won’t even start to undo that tangled knot.

    There is a historical resolution to the whole issue–another war–on a scale equal to what the U.S. vs. U.S.S.R. might’ve been.  And in the interest of historical fairness–the attempt to conquer hasn’t all been one sided–Europe gets dissed for the crusades.  Let it be remembered that Suliman tried very hard to conquer Austria and the Mediterranian.

    I didn’t quite answer the question in the terms you framed it.  Let me address that–can there be anything more counterproductive than a drawing Muhhammed contest–when it is common knowledge that is one of the forbidden things in Islam?  It’s a veritable lightning rod.  It’s like dealing with the sex scandal in the Catholic Church by calling the Pope a pedophile.  It is wonderful Howard Stern journalism–but it doesn’t do squat for living in peace among neighbors.

    and on the Faith side of it–

    Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. (col 4:6)

  • expression

  • @baldmike2004 - Thank you.  I totally agree.

  • I’m not in favor of purposefully offending other people. But I also see the point of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the screenwriter who wrote the screenplay of the movie that got Theo Van Gogh killed. She said that it’s because we wring our hands and won’t stand up for people’s rights and because we’re cowed into submission that people like her (she now must have bodyguards) and Van Gogh and Trey Parker and Matt Stone are in danger. If the willingness to depict Muhammad was commonplace, the violent extremists would have too many targets. There would be safety in numbers.

  • freedom of expression.

  • @quicksandbuddy - To us it is disrespectful to depict any prophet visually, not only Prophet Mohammad (PBUH). So we find it disrespectful when we see so many visualizations of Isa (Jesus) PBUH, as well. 

  • Freedom of expression. Most definitely.

  • @Aaliyaan - Ok, that makes sense.

  • i mean, without freedom of expression there wouldn’t really be the freedom to practice your own religion…

  • Freedom of expression.

  • Expression.

  • THERYE GOING TO KILL US. AHHH

  • Expression.

    Incidentally, if someone is not Muslim, they should not be expected to care about the rules of Islam. We’re the infidel; what can Muslims expect us to do but behave like infidels?

  • no religion deserves respect. they’re all equally stupid.

  • Who do they think they are, messing with a Norris?
    Everyone knows you don’t mess with a Norris for fear of bring the wrath of THE Norris upon yourself.

    He likes his name.

  • Wow!  I didn’t know South Park was a good source for promoting important topics.  I have been educated today. 

  • I want the bear costume, the U-Haul truck, and the censored banner. oops, yes, I am so bad. Sorry! hehe

  • we all know religion kills.

  • @OngishLyOngLee - an old adage is that “Saints and Martyrs rule from their graves”

  • @Thatslifekid - Death threats are a form of repression, which is designed to limit expression from everyone else.

  • @OngishLyOngLee - No, we don’t all “know” that.  I, for one, do not believe that.  Violent people use religion as an excuse to kill.  There is a difference.

  • Religion is boring. 

  • @iiinfinitesimal - exactly

  • Both get trampled on as well as being taken advantage of.

  • Freedom of speech is essential, I already did my drawing:

    http://chaospet.com/2010/04/24/179-blasphemy/

  • @jwfarns - But death threats are also a form of expression, a public way of letting others know your views, however extreme they may be.

  • This isn’t even about religion. It’s about a group of people who say they’ll try to kill us if we do something they don’t like. Do they have that right? I think I’ve got to say fuck no. If I could, I’d include an image of Mohammad right here in the comment section. 

  • @Aaliyaan - You may find it disrespectful, however, others show their respect in the depiction.  Why must we show respect only in ways that are acceptable to extremists?  To me that is unacceptable and disrespectful.  Too many men and women have shed their blood to protect our freedom of expression and freedom of religion for me to disrespect their sacrifice by allowing someone else to dictate how I will and will not show my respect.

  • Freedom of expression. If you can’t handle a little poke at your faith, maybe your faith wasn’t that strong in the first place. 

  • Man…first they’ll stop us making fun of religious people and their religions…and then it’ll be a downward spiral.  All of a sudden we won’t be able to make fun of cripples or bodybuilders or rappers and so on…It will only get worse…

  • @jwfarns - Which is why I respect their views by not saying anything. I might find it disagreeable but I will not say anything to the ones that find it respectful because it’s their beliefs and I respect them. I expect the same in return. Respect for respect.

    “Why must we show respect only in ways that are acceptable to extremists?”
    Not all Muslims are extremists, but all Muslims will find any depiction of Mohammad (pbuh) to be offensive. So disrespecting Muslim beliefs is respective in your own way because it’s freedom of expression? Wonderful.

  • @Thatslifekid - Even freedom of expression has acceptable and unacceptable limits.  Death threats are unacceptable because their intention is to repress the freedoms of others.  Therefore, they are a tool of repression.  Your freedoms end where mine begin.  If you take liberties that are designed to limit the liberty of someone else, you have gone too far.  There is no acceptable way to threaten someone else’s life, liberty or pursuit of happiness.  You are free to disagree, but you are not free to cause someone to fear for their life.  It is morally reprehensible and illegal.

    threat, in law, declaration of intent to injure another by doing an unlawful act, with a view to restraining his freedom of action. A threat is distinguishable from an assault, for an assault requires some physical act that appears likely to eventuate in violence, whereas a threat may consist of words only or an act that is not violent, e.g., unlawful prosecution. Threats made to obtain money or property wrongfully are crimes (see blackmail and extortion), and under some statutes, the mere sending of nonextortionate letters that announce an intent to injure the person or property of another is criminal. Any contract concluded while one party is deprived of his freedom of will by a threat (see duress) is invalid and may be set aside. (http://www.answers.com/topic/threat)

  • @jwfarns - Death threats are considered unprotected speech though and are not afforded the same protections as other forms of speech.  In a state of law, death threats will be examined closely.  Death threats against the president will be examined immediately and seriously because of the elevated status of political speech.  So making death threats, while a version of freedom, will ultimately be looked at as a crime.  I do not advocate crime in any way I’m just arguing a point.

  • I’m totally doing this. I have to.

    I’m gonna draw Mohammad. LOL

    I’m an artist, expression is my obvious choice. However, the right to express your thoughts and feelings can be a double-edged sword.

  • They will all be silenced. Permanently.

  • Freedom of speech implies criticize the militants of any religion; but, one has no right to criticizes the sacredness of religion. Let us keep in mind that humans are imperfect but, not the religion which they belong to. Now, criticizes is one thing but, demonized people for what professes is not acceptable. Though, many people are not aware of this simple fact.

  • @Aaliyaan - I know that not all Muslims are extremists, however, I assume that the death threats and murders are committed by extremists.  Do Muslims worry about whether or not they are being disrespectful of Christian or Jewish beliefs?  (This is an honest question.  I honestly do not know.) I am not saying that we should go out of our way to be disrespectful, however, why would you expect me to live my life by your standards just because you find my standards to be disrespectful?  If I want to erect a statue of Jesus in my yard to honor Him, why should I care that you think it is disrespectful?  I am not trying to be argumentative, I’m just trying to express my belief that I do not expect you to live by my standards and that you should not expect me to live by yours.  I think it is good if we try to understand one another, but it is not good to issue threats to each other because we find each other’s ways of worship to be disrespectful.

  • @Thatslifekid - And it is a point that I have given some serious thought and I strongly disagree with your argument.

  • @jwfarns - I just ask that you question yourself as to WHY you disagree with my argument.  Introspection never hurts right?

  • @Thatslifekid - I explained why I disagree with you.  Do you know why I disagree with you?

  • @jwfarns - from the just of your comment it comes from your moral standing.  

  • @Thatslifekid - It comes from understanding that freedom comes with responsibility.  You have freedom, but only until you start to trample on the freedoms of others.  It is the same reason that you have freedom to have sex with whomever you choose — provided they are over a certain age.  It is the same reason you have the freedom to take the kinds of photos you want — unless it’s child porn.  It is the same reason you have the freedom to learn how to fight, but not the freedom to assault another person.  You have the freedom to go where you please — unless it is private property.  If you want to call that morality, you can, but it is built into the constitution and the bill of rights.

  • @SoapAndShampoo - I am not an infidel, I am a phillistine!

  • @jwfarns - thank you for clarifying for me. 

  • Freedom of expression is important, but I wouldn’t be mean about it. I don’t agree with the person above who said “look away” .. I think thats extremely ignorant. I stand for South Park, because it is what it is. Its what South Park does. I personally don’t believe South Park has ever said anything to offend someone completely. I myself, being both a ginger and part Jewish, have laughed at the majority of the jokes on South Park, because its meant to be funny. If someone wants to express their hatred for someone else, that’s different. On the other hand, they have the right to. I respect everyone and there really isnt a correct answer to this question. But throughout my daily life, I try not to offend anyone. Not to say that I suck up to people or allow them to affect my actions- I know I can do or say whatever I want. But I choose not to. If I’m around someone I KNOW will not laugh at a racist joke or something, I won’t tell it. If I want to smoke around someone who doesnt like the smell, I just won’t. Yes, you can argue that I am giving in to others desires or whatever crap. But thats not the way I see it. I see it as being polite. 

  • While it may be insulting, South Park has the right to be insulting. The Constitution doesn’t say “freedom of speech UNLESS it offends someone!” That wouldn’t be fair. South Park exists, basically, to make fun of EVERYBODY. It’s a trivial matter to think you’re being targeted specifically. NO ONE is safe from South Park.

    And while I understand that depicting Mohammad would offend Muslims, what they have to understand is that the people who draw Mohammad are not Muslim and, by depicting him, are not necessarily doing it in order to disrespect him. In many other religions, a depiction of a leader is respectful. Complaining to the media is one thing, but threatening DEATH is just ridiculous.

  • @jwfarns - okay.  so you’re saying suicide bombers are some emo kids who don’t believe in being awarded with i don’t know how many virgins in the afterlife by becoming martyrs?

  • Freedom of expression. 

  • This is such a frustrating debate, because there really is no solution that DOESN’T somehow attack some of the most basic beliefs of an enormous group of people world-wide.  We discussed this debate (specifically stemming from the Danish? cartoonist who created the infamous series of Mohammed cartoons back in ’05? sorry my dates and names are weak) in a Media Ethics class and the problem is that eventually you have to show some concern for other people and not just your rights.  Respect Muslims, protect people that are threatened by extremist groups.  There’s an extreme disagreement over certain a priori assumptions/principles between the Islamic world and the Judeo-Christian West.  Freedom of speech is non-negotiable.  Respect for the sanctity of Mohammed is non-negotiable.  What happens when the immovable object (principles of Islam) meets the unstoppable force (freedom of speech)?

    Well, the unstoppable force chooses (pardon my anthropomorphism) to concede the battle, out of regard for it’s neighbors, upon making the realization that potential violence towards said neighbors is the greater of two (presumed) evils (the other being censorship).

  • @jwfarns - Yes, Muslims do actually think if they are being disrespectful to others beliefs. I wasn’t born Muslim, I reverted to Islam from Judaism. My entire family, save my cousin and my niece, are Jewish. Although what they practice conflicts with my beliefs, I would never go out of my way to disrespect them or ridicule them about their beliefs because that’s what they are, THEIR beliefs. If you wanted to go and construct a statue of the Prophet Jesus (pbuh) then go for it. I wouldn’t like it but I wouldn’t go and destroy it because it conflicts with my beliefs, since you’re only following YOUR religion. 

    But constructing a Jesus (pbuh) statue in your yard and purposely drawing depiction of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) just to ridicule Muslims or to seem “hip” is in fact going out of ones way to BE disrespectful. There is a major difference between attacking another’s faith because one doesn’t understand it and practicing one’s own faith.

  • Expression.
    It’s not as if South Park is not making fun of every religion they can think of. 

  • Religion is a type of freedom of expression.

    While it is wrong for anyone to give death threats for anything, there should be taken into consideration the sensitivities that ensue within every religion.  In Islam, it is considered wrong and very disrespectful to depict the Prophet Muhammad; it’s as simple as that.  So when you go around making drawings, just because that doesn’t make sense to you as to why its disrespectful, you are disrespecting many people on a great level.  Yes, it’s still wrong to give death threats because of this, but this respect should be taken into consideration when doing such things. 

    What you think might be a joke may be going too far for a lot of people.

  • @syedanoor - Well said, well said. 

    On a side note…. Salaam!

  • @Aaliyaan - walaikumus salaam and thank you!
    I wanted to say that I agreed with everything you said, but I didn’t want to make it seem as if we were tag-teaming =P

  • Freedom of Expression

  • @syedanoor - How does this reconcile with the Persian tradition? There are legion examples of visual (respectful) instances of Mohammed coming out of the less stringent Shi’a tradition, and yet there’s no great iconoclastic hub-bub in a similar vein over who’s been disrespected. (Well, over just the images, at least…) Over this art, the Shi’a definition is a line of respect, while the Sunni one is an absolute no-go, which means that Sunnis are still going to be offended either way. But Shi’as think they’re doing right by making images, otherwise they wouldn’t do it at all. (After all, causing harm, especially to another Muslim, would be gravely against the Quran.) So, we outweigh the belief of goodness of one with the belief of offense of another? (This is throwing out the ridiculous outliers like the KKK and Nazis…) Certainly, it looks like I’m making a huge stretch between medieval Persian art and 21st century American cartoons, but the heart of the issue is the same. (“Freedom of religion” is probably best “freedom of belief” so not to exclude agnostics and atheists…) South Park is convinced that they’re doing good in their episodes – hence why the moral of that episode is so extremely transparent by the end of the show. (I’m not sure how much South Park you watch… so, my apologies if I’m preaching to the choir.) Do we then censor someone who, under their beliefs and without any bit of illegality, believes that they are helping society because someone, under their beliefs, takes offense? Not at all – not in Western society, at least. There’s a decently ascribed-to contemporary tradition of artists making absolutely blasphemous representations of Jesus that sicken me to my stomach, and G-d is more often than not just plain-out called God, but none of these offenses are cause for censorship to the point of removal. (There’s actually past precedence of South Park doing exactly this… And, no, when it was Jesus, it wasn’t removed.) We’d be preferring one belief over another. So far as this Molly Norris is concerned, she might be riding on the coat-tails a bit, but it’s her prerogative.

    By the by, no one censored the July 4, 2001 “Super Best Friends” episode, which had Mohammed as a superhero… Just throwing that out there, ’cause I thought I’d seen a South Park with Mohammed it in before.

  • Freedom of Expression, because if we always had to bend over backwards for the religion of Islam, then hell we might as well change the name of our country from USA, to Iran/Iraq/Afghanistan/we can not take care of our own country/Israel… and while we’re at it, lets treat our women like total fucking shit, Stone them, behead them, and then say its our right because of our religion.  Then we can lie to the whole world and say our religion is one of peace.

  • Freedom of expression as far as it doesn’t infringe upon the rights of others.  Having a south park episode about religion or drawing mohammed: yep, constitutionally protected.  Do something like…burn a church as a form or religious expression: nonono. 

    However, having a campaign titled “Everybody Draw Mohammed Day” comes across as very disrespectful and will probably do more harm to your cause than good.  Though I agree with the protester, I would have chosen a different name.

    And every one knows that south park is universally insulting; not just to one group of people.:P

  • expression.

  • @TheSmokeMonster - @szechwan_dwam – @bclmj - - Both very correct.

    Respect goes both ways, and these people feel its okay to insult Christianity, Judaism etc, but it’s never okay to insult Islam? Ridiculous. Boy this makes me angry! It it’s good enough for one religion, it’s good enough for another.

  • Right to bear arms. This guarantees the freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

  • Expression.

  • @JerichoXile - Right to bear arms. This guarantees the freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

    Hilarious.

  • @syedanoor - While it is wrong for anyone to give death threats for anything, there should be taken into consideration the sensitivities that ensue within every religion..

    Sure, but when Islam is criticized or satirized, then it’s not as if death threats are justified or anything, right?

    In Islam, it is considered wrong and very disrespectful to depict the Prophet Muhammad; it’s as simple as that.

    Okay, but this isn’t an Islamic society, and when non-Muslims choose to depict Muhammad, as they would any other religious icon– too fucking bad.

  • @quicksandbuddy - Christianity doesn’t really have any rules like this..

    Come on, don’t you remember the Iconoclastic Controversy and the whole Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox split? Sheesh, I’m a heathen and even I know this.

  • Considering I don’t have much respect for religion in the first place I’d have to say I’d value freedom of expression more.

    The point of the two episodes is that they aren’t going to discriminate. Everyone and everything is up on the table and no one religion is going to get special treatment. I personally like that message.

    If you can really get so riled as to send death threats just because someone drew a picture of your prophet then maybe your beliefs aren’t that strong in the first place. They’re so weak that simple brushstrokes cause you to piss your pants.

  • @TheSmokeMonster - I’m not familiar with those. But that might be because I’m not Catholic. The Bible never mentions artistic portrayal of holy figures, so, personally, I don’t really care how people choose to depict them.

  • Respect for Religion, of course the majority today don’t recognize the value of it and would rather disregard it. I find it highly intolerable that people would choose religious figures as a source of comedic expressions.  I say, leave the historical leaders and their charismatic traits alone, find something better to poke fun at — what a tasteless, pathetic and disrespectful generation of people.

  • @OngishLyOngLee - you clearly have the wrong idea of Islam. I’m a theologian and none of that applies to Islam. Perhaps you should read and be educated on the matter before you criticize.

  • @baldmike2004 - Best comment I have read.

    What a bunch of stupidity.

    There is a difference between freedom to express what you need to express, and just trying to hit a nerve. What is the need to draw Muhammad?

    I don’t agree with death threats, that is taking it too far. If someone I know did it, I would tell them we don’t believe in drawing him, in case they didn’t know, but that’d be that. But in this instance, it’s just not funny or anything. It’s pure disrespect.

  • @strong_desires - Thank you. :)

  • I value my head remaining connected to the rest of me… screw that. Those extremists are capable of many things I just don’t want to find out about. Plus, I cant draw so we’re cool.

  • I value freedom of expression. =]

  • @OhItWontBeForever - There is a difference between freedom to express what you need to express, and just trying to hit a nerve. What is the need to draw Muhammad?

    Freedom of speech runs the gamut, from what may pass your personal stamp of approval to satire, criticism, and critique.

    Ever read a New Yorker? The Economist? The New York Times? Each of these publication features comics satiring or bringing to light contemporary political and social issues. As Jesus, Obama, or Uncle Sam may be put to print, so should Muhammad under the very same purposes.

    What more, members of the Fundamentalist Right of Islam aren’t limiting death threats and assasination attempts to merely pictorial depictions of Muhammad, but it extends just as easily to printed or general criticism. Look up Salman Rushdie or Theo van Gogh.

  • I hate religion and couldn’t give a shit less if people are offended by someone’s silly cartoons. freedom of expression!

  • @TheSmokeMonster - Yes but do I advocate the death threats?

    I clearly stated that I don’t agree with them. They are ridiculous.

    But organising a whole day for something clearly disrespectful to some people’s basic beliefs is just as childish.

    They can go ahead with it. But in my eyes, it is just immature. I have no problem with criticism, and I don’t think they shouldn’t do it because of the death threats. It is just a matter of respect.

  • @strong_desires - Respect for Religion, of course the majority today don’t recognize the value of it and would rather disregard it.

    The United States is a multicultural nation with a rich variety of traidtions. I think it is a good thing that we have a confluence of views, values, and opinions.

    If you want legally enforced coddling of one particular religion– Islam, Christianity, or Buddhism– try another country.

    I find it highly intolerable that people would choose religious figures as a source of comedic expressions.  I say, leave the historical leaders and their charismatic traits alone, find something better to poke fun at — what a tasteless, pathetic and disrespectful generation of people.

    The sensibility is respectable, but realize that the freedom of speech is a free range critter. You can’t just allow speech that you yourself finds palatable and censor or threaten anything disagreeable.

    The way to fight bad speech is more speech, not censorship.

  • @OhItWontBeForever - But organising a whole day for something clearly disrespectful to some people’s basic beliefs is just as childish.

    This may be the case, but threats of death are more disprespectful, aren’t they?

    They can go ahead with it. But in my eyes, it is just immature.

    You’re probably right, but all of this is a direct push-back to the culture of fear propagated by members of Fundamentalist Islam. I don’t see members of the Buddhist community welding the baton of fear, and similarily, I don’t see people on the internet organizing a day of heckling for Buddha.

  • @TheSmokeMonster - Disrespectful? haha. They are more than that.

    I just think that trying to counter it with this day is only going to make it worse. People like that are best dealt with by ignoring them. But then again, I guess that won’t get a message across.

    Nevertheless, I stand by my statement that it’s immature.

    I agree that it’s a push-back, but I just wish there was no need. At the end of the day, though, those fundies are to blame. Nobody else.

  • @OhItWontBeForever - Speaking of which, I recently saw a ridiculous wax Buddha in the discount section of the local Borders bookstore. Fortunately, my cultural and religious heritage didn’t trigger anything beyond a momentary ugly frown. ^_^

  • @TheSmokeMonster - Are you Buddhist? Or, were you?

    I think Buddhas are so cute, haha!

  • @OhItWontBeForever - No, but I think my folks are. I still identify with the whole Eastern religious bit, though.

  • @TheSmokeMonster - You think? How come you don’t know for sure?

    But that’s cool! So what d’you consider yourself then?

  • @OhItWontBeForever - Atheist. One of this stuck-up angry ones. ^^

  • @TheSmokeMonster - Cools. I’m one of those wacked out Muslims. Pleased to meet you. :)

  • @bclmj - I don’t think it is the same when you consider how Christians and Muslims see Jesus and Muhammad respectively. The issue is with depicting his image (Muhammad) before ridiculing him. Christians don’t mind images of Jesus, in fact they have them at their churches. Islamically, you don’t draw or create images of Muhammad (or any Prophets, or God, for that matter.)

    I am just making that clear, so you know. That doesn’t make one more important than the other, and, like szechwan_dwam, you are right that the same rules should apply to all.

    Personally, I don’t think Christians should have to put up with zombie Jesus jokes, or anyone put up with anything like that. But hey, it happens, and I don’t think death threats are going to solve anything.

    There is stupidity radiating from all sides of this story.

  • @szechwan_dwam - Um, you seem kind of offended at these jokes, understandably so. So why should people from other religions suffer the same sort of prosecution? Just ’cause you’re religion is targeted, others should be too? I think it’s wrong to pick on any religion. If it offends someone, just steer clear of it.@baldmike2004 - That quote is the essence of everything I’d like to say. You can’t have Freedom of Expression without encroaching the Freedom of Religion, and vice versa. So why not find a balance, like you do for everything else in life? We denounce extremists, yet we resort to the extremes when it comes to this religious discussion?

  • @Gaijinsays - I agree completely.

    @quicksandbuddy - It is just a sign of respect. It doesn’t make him equal to God, but he is probably the next best thing. We don’t draw any of the Prophets, not only Muhammad. I just wanted to let you know that. As for the rest of your comment, agreed.

  • @szechwan_dwam - This was common in early Persian culture, around the times of the Sufis, notice that today such isn’t done.  Just because there are some people who do something, doesn’t mean that it makes it okay for the whole religion, right?  There are a lot of Sunnis, and Shias, along with other Islamic sects, that find it disrespectful to depict the Prophet Muhammad.

    I don’t watch South Park, so thank you for that information!

    But I agree with you to an extent, my feelings aren’t this way just for Islam, but for other religions as well.  Religion is one of the things that many people since the beginning of time have taken very seriously in their lives, as a means to respect that sanctity in someone’s eyes and their right to practice the religion, I feel that things that can be offensive to religious people in general should be avoided.  Same goes for people who don’t necessarily identify themselves with religion, or Athiests or Agnostics; I don’t appreciate people who consider themselves religious making fun of them either just because they don’t follow a similar line of thought.

    @TheSmokeMonster - I already said more than once in that comment that I don’t think death threats are okay in any case.  I’m not talking about only respecting the sensitivities of Muslims, but also people of other faiths.  It doesn’t even have to be a matter of censoring or lessening freedoms, but just one of respect, that’s all.

  • @syedanoor - I already said more than once in that comment that I don’t think death threats are okay in any case.  I’m not talking about only respecting the sensitivities of Muslims, but also people of other faiths.  It doesn’t even have to be a matter of censoring or lessening freedoms, but just one of respect, that’s all.

    So that respect necessitates the self-censorship of criticism?

    If I disagree with Islam, rather than voicing my reasons for disagreement, I should just shut up and withold my own speech?

  • i drew muhammed before, obvious what i think 

  • Just posted my own blasphemy challenge

    http://jenessa1889.xanga.com/726122538/blasphemy-post-my-depiction-of-muhammed-matt-and-trey-forever/

    Is it disrespectful? maybe.  they can deal with it, freedom of speech is more important than avoiding offending people.

    Some islamic people believe that women should cover their bodies.   that’s fine, but it’s not fair to say I have to cover my body too to avoid offending them

  • @TheSmokeMonster - There’s nothing wrong with disagreeing with anything, but there should be respect in that criticism.  =)
    And again, I’m not saying that special provisions should be made only for Islam, I’m talking about all religions and like thoughts.  Just like how I feel that religion shouldn’t be made a mockery of, I don’t agree with religious people thinking its okay to make fun of Atheism or Agnosticism just because they don’t follow a similar belief system.

  • @syedanoor - Points taken, but the public discourse extends beyond formal discussions with “please” and “thank you.” Discussion may take the form of political cartoons, the comedic satire, or the the pointed protest.

    For something like religion, I do agree– people really ought to take into account sensibilities; but as a balance between “hurt feelings” and “free speech,” I feel that free speech ought to win out evrey time.

  • Muhammad was a prophet. Even Christians tell harmless jokes about St. Peter at the pearly gates etc. etc. 

    At any rate, freedom of expression is that much more enjoyable when the possibility exists that some people may go all postal on you.   

  • @TheSmokeMonster - I can agree with what you’re saying, just not the way that may ensue though.

    I love dialogue between different people with different thought and completely condone it.  But even with opposing viewpoints as a means to shed light on different perspectives, there should be a line that an individual should know that they shouldn’t cross.  There isn’t anything wrong with criticism as long as its constructive rather than making a mockery about what someone considers sacred, ya know? =)

  • Ohhhhhh, I see when the shoe is on the other foot its wrong, everybody makes fun of Jewish people and its ok. But make fun a TOWEL HEAD who supports child molestation and rape its bad news. F.G.A.Life
    ie. The prophet Mohammad married a 12 yo girl. Muslims support the rape of non-towel heads

    I’ll say it Mohammad and ALLAH are child molesters and if I could I would draw a picture of ALLAH sticking it to Mohammad up the poop chute but I can’t draw.. So I will leave you with your own mental drawing.

  • @syedanoor - There isn’t anything wrong with criticism as long as its constructive rather than making a mockery about what someone considers sacred, ya know? =)

    Yeah, but the intent behind a movement like the one highlighted in Dan’s isn’t to hurt the feelings of Muslims, it’s to break the press’ taboo against public criticism of Islam.

    For instance, during the controversy over the Dannish cartoons, no major U.S. publications were willing to republish the depictions for fear of violent retaliation– this is despite the cartoons themselves being relevent to the story. And I think it’s a similar case in the South Park case.

    So this movement isn’t “Hey, I’m an asshole and I hate Islam,” it’s a “We’re not afraid of anti-speech intimidation, and the press shouldn’t be either.”

  • @baldmike2004 - I heard this saying similarly expressed… ‘the rights of my fist stop at your nose.’

    Both rights are valid, provided that one person does not use his right to deprive someone else of theirs. I don’t think drawing a picture prevents a Muslim from honoring Mohammed. Artists however should consider the wisdom in treating people’s religious views respectfully, or they risk becoming hated by those they mock. Being hated isn’t really a good thing if one expects to turn a profit from their art, and may create personal safety issues as well. Probably not a good idea.

  • Screw it, people make fun of Christianity all the time and we don’t go around threatening to kill people.  Like their allies on the political left, the Moslems are way too sensitive.  They need to be brought into check by the civilized people’s of the world.  I will be drawing pictures of Muhammad, you can bet on it.  

  • Well I’m taking an Anthropology class. (Not that it matters…) but I have always tried to respect the religions of others. So therefore, I think this whole Draw Mohammed thing is just fucking tacky. It’s expression and all that to those who do not practice the religion. But to the people who do believe, it is a great offense. It’s one of the ugliest things a person can do culturally. I don’t support it.

  • @syedanoor - What?  Sufism has nothing to do with early Persian culture.  Persia is far older than the Islamic invasion, and Islam is an invading force which was not part of the original culture.  

  • I don’t think they’re mutually exclusive. Religion is a powerful form of self expression and the expression of core beliefs. That’s where the issue comes in. People stepping on your toes is no more acceptable than you telling them they can’t walk because they’re stepping on your toes.. but we prize one over the other in this country. 

  • Freedom of expression because without that we all have to talk the way the govt. tells us too.

  • @TheSmokeMonster - I understand that, but while trying to support freedom of expression as a means to go against such acts of violence and threats, there are many innocent Muslims being disrespected, especially in the States, where there weren’t (or according to my knowledge, there hasn’t been) any great violent backlash to the Danish cartoons.

    Because, at the end of the day, just like with terrorism, there are many more Muslims that aren’t radical extremists plotting to take over the world by killing people and by violently reacting to everything anti-Islam.  Yet, as a retaliation for the few who do hold such extreme beliefs, the innocent layman Muslim who understands and accepts freedom of speech is insulted, profiled and disrespected.

    (Again, this isn’t to make it seem as if Islam should have special provisions made; I’m just talking about the issue at hand through a Muslim’s point of view)

  • @Ambrosius_Augustus_Rex - If you look at the commentor to whom I was replying to, he was talking about depictions of the Prophet and such being okay in Shia traditions in Persian culture.

  • @syedanoor - …there are many innocent Muslims being disrespected, especially in the States, where there weren’t (or according to my knowledge, there hasn’t been) any great violent backlash to the Danish cartoons.

    Point taken. Judgement of the Everybody Draw Muhammand Day, would have to be on a balance: Pros vs. cons, benifits vs. harms.

    Because, at the end of the day, just like with terrorism, there are many more Muslims that aren’t radical extremists plotting to take over the world by killing people and by violently reacting to everything anti-Islam.  Yet, as a retaliation for the few who do hold such extreme beliefs, the innocent layman Muslim who understands and accepts freedom of speech is insulted, profiled and disrespected.

    As an outsider, it is difficult for me to understand the religious insult of such depictions, but is surely understood that it isn’t meant personally or against the Islam in particular.

  • @TheSmokeMonster - I can understand the intentions, and can also see why a lot of people outside the fold of Islam may not understand why it’s insulting, but the fact remains that a lot of Muslims have indeed established (through violent AND non-violent means) that we really don’t appreciate this being done.  I just feel that there are better ways of protesting than by insulting people who haven’t done anything wrong.  Even if it isn’t the main intention, that doesn’t make it any less disrespectful.

  • @OngishLyOngLee - When you say “religion kills” you are painting with a pretty broad brush.  Not everyone who “has religion” kills people.  Again, it is not the religion that is doing the killing, it is those who practice the extreme form that are killing people.  It is a very different thing and to pretend otherwise is not only misinformed, it is irresponsible.  It is that kind of reasoning that other extremists use to justify more violence.

  • @AnonymityIsGood - I’m personally offended, but I wouldn’t want them to stop if I know that there’re trying to do right by themselves, and aren’t threatening me. My opinion isn’t necessarily better than theirs – so, we’re free to insult each other. Especially in cases like this, I’d rather see a dangerous flood of art than a safe drought. 
    I would add to those concerned that insulting the sacred is a great offense: we’ve (Westerners) lived through Chaucer, Rabelais, Voltaire, and punk rock. The record’s fairly clear about it, and it’s always come out in the favor of the artist.

  • How is making fun of Jesus Christ or Buddah any different than making fun of Mohammed? Many of us could send death threats to whoever does so but we just don’t, I guess most of us don’t feel that strongly for Christ like Muslims feel for Mohammed.

    Definitely protecting Freedom of Expression.

  • @OhItWontBeForever - Thanks. Aaliyaan set me straight on the prophet thing. I read some of the Qu’ran, 1,001 Nights, and Conference of the Birds for my World Literature class, so I know a bit about Muslim prophets and rules of conduct, though, obviously, I couldn’t pass an exam on the religion.

    One thing many Christians respect about Muslims is how seriously they take their faith, so I have to admire the respect they have for their prophets.   

  • @Thatslifekid - 

    Death threats are not protected under the first amendment because they call for violence.  A death threat is individualized harassment, and is not tolerated. 

  • @syedanoor - Religion is a type of freedom of expression, that is true.  However, Christians and Jews alike have had to put up with what some consider the desecration of the Holy Lands by Islam.  If Muslims do not like something, there are other ways to express their displeasure.  Death threats are not acceptable EVER.  Muslims need to respect the rights of others to express themselves even when you find it distasteful or disrespectful.  That is what it means to live in a free society.  We are free to disagree and even be disrespectful of each other.  We are free to open discussions and express our displeasure and ask for respect.  We are NOT free to threaten and kill one another.

  • I like how the ad on the sidebar says, “The International Muslim Matrimonial Site!”

    It seems it is a never ending cycle between freedom of expression and freedom of religion – there will never be an agreement, only compromises, which will result in bitterness, anger, and grief. 

  • @jwfarns - If you read my previous comments, you would see that I said in pretty much every one of them that I do not condone violence or threats in any manner or form and that I believe in respecting people of all faiths, and also those that may not identify with a faith such as Athiests and Agnostics.

    I believe in structured criticism that takes into consideration certain sensitivities that either party may express through their beliefs.

  • omg. it’s freakin’ south park. who takes that show seriously any more. c’mon. that’s like saying family guy is the bible.

  • oh and this south park episode is from years ago, why are we waking up something that’s been dead for years now?

  • @syedanoor -  It is not just the person who is expressing themselves that must be sensitive; it is also the “hearer” who must consider the beliefs of the person they are hearing.  If I say “Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God”, I am expressing my belief and it is offensive to a Muslim who considers this to be blasphemy.  How can I express this belief and not offend?  I think that finding offense or not finding offense is up to the hearer.

  • @jwfarns - Those are someone else’s religious beliefs, so while I may not agree with them, I won’t find them offensive.  It isn’t anyone’s ‘religious beliefs’ to draw the Prophet Muhammad.

  • people should be able  to morally check themselves.  But because so many people are pretentious and full of themselves – it’s never gonna happen.  At the same time – fuck it if you can’t make fun of everything.

  • Freedom of expression.

    Respect is a choice – it isn’t, nor should it be, law. You should have the right to express yourself, even if you gain disrespect for it.(Plus, you cannot make someone truly respect something or someone – but you can make someone let another express themselves.)

  • i’m sorry, how many times have i seen cartoons, etc of people depicting Jesus high/in bed with someone, etc?  i am a Christian and i don’t take offense – mostly because i can’t get offended just because your opinion and ways you’re going to express yourself are different from mine.  i’m secure in my faith and nothing you say or do will shake me from it, but also because i live in america and (praise God), we have constitutional rights to say whatever we want.  if you don’t like it, feel free to let the door hit you on the way out.

  • @loislaura - re: How is making fun of Jesus Christ or Buddah any different than making fun of Mohammed? Many of us could send death threats to whoever does so but we just don’t, I guess most of us don’t feel that strongly for Christ like Muslims feel for Mohammed.

    i would die for the cause of Christ, but I’m not going to kill or even threaten anyone for it.

  • @quicksandbuddy - I take that as a compliment. :) I have to say, I feel the same way about Christians. Most of the ones I know take it seriously, and, as with Muslims, there are a few that don’t.

  • @bri_pekar - It’s not about shaking faith. It’s about respecting it.

    Just because you don’t find something offensive, it doesn’t mean the rest of the world is the same.

  • @syedanoor - But it is their belief in freedom of expression that is being challenged and threatened.  Just because it is not a “religious” belief per se does not mean it is ok to trample on their rights and freedoms.

  • Ohhhhhh, I see when the shoe is on the other foot its wrong, everybody makes fun of Jewish people and its ok. But make fun a TOWEL HEAD who supports child molestation and rape its bad news. F.G.A.Life
    ie. The prophet Mohammad married a 12 yo girl. Muslims support the rape of non-towel heads

    I’ll say it Mohammad and ALLAH are child molesters and if I could I would draw a picture of ALLAH sticking it to Mohammad up the poop chute but I can’t draw.. So I will leave you with your own mental drawing.

  • Sand nig****, camel jockeys where talking about people who choose to live in the stone age. They smell bad and we are worried about there stipid threats? Come on people get real. They need to lite’n up.

    DRAW AWAY, Make fun of Allah all you want he is not real, oh yes thats right he is. His real name is Bahal, Beelzebub or by his Western name of Prince of Darkness

  • @catman517 - What dark tunnel did you climb out of? 

  • @bri_pekar - Finding depictions of prophets, any depictions, are offensive to us Muslims because that is one aspect of our beliefs. You don’t find it offensive because it may not be a part of your beliefs, seeing as many Christians have pictures of Prophet Isa (Jesus, pbuh) in their homes. (Although I think any satire based illustrations would be offensive to everyone, no?). Finding these depictions offensive doesn’t mean our faith has been shaken, it just means we are expressing our opinions of the matter. 

    What people don’t seem to understand is that sure South Park did what they did because they are South Parkians and have no respect for anything really, but this “artist” did a flare-up “day” JUST aimed at Muslims. It was downright disrespectful and in bad taste.
    What I find as quite hilarious is that Islam has been in America for roughly 200 years. So why shouldn’t one of the oldest religions in America have a say in life when Muslims are being wronged?
    Also as you mentioned, you would not make death threats, well 99% of the Muslim population doesn’t make death threats. Why does everyone get t-ed off at the entire population of Muslims when the one odd redneck decides to wave his gun?

  • @jwfarns - Like I said before, it’s not okay to threaten people like that, ever.  But there are better ways of protesting.  Simple. Done.

  • i personally don’t know the basic principles of what people call as freedom of expression…

    does it mean, a total freedom, where we can say anything even if it would stir hatred, etc?

  • I’m for the respect.

  • @catman517 - You did a great job of making yourself appear educated and informed. Well done. :)

  • @OhItWontBeForever - Thank you I’ll take that as a compliment, I’m an alumni Of Penn. St.

  • @catman517 - I do hope that is not where you got all your knowledge about Islaam. If so, you just reduced their applicants by at least 80%.

  • @OhItWontBeForever - I’m am very aware what is the Koran and the hate/death that it talks about. Would you like me to bring up certian verses. Are you aware of the hate that your religion spews?

  • @catman517 - I’m well aware of my religion’s teachings, thank you. But if, by some miracle, I forget, I know where to go.

  • @OhItWontBeForever - You might want to be careful, you may end up like those inocent little girls in Afganistane.

  • @catman517 - I believe you mean Afghanistan, but you know, I don’t want to assume. We all know how dangerous assumptions are. 

  • @OhItWontBeForever - Yes you are correct. I never bragged spelling was my strong suit.

    Then I suppose that you know that the Muslim false religion also condones rape? I thought I would quote it for you. Maybe you don’t want anybody to know this. No wonder Muslims are so full of hate from Americans and Israeli’s.
    Hate is a no win situation.

    Chapter 33 verse 50 of the Koran:
    “O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncle on the father’s side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father’s side, and the daughters of thine uncles on the mother’s side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother’s side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage a privilege for thee only, not for the [rest of] believers. We are aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hand possess that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.”

    Thus, the Prophet is given sexual access to first cousins, captives, and any believing woman whom he desires to wed. In fact, he is given certain liberties denied to all others. Allah is here not only forgiving but also quite liberal, at least on the behalf of his Prophet. The term “whom your right hand possesses” refers to women captured in battle. Captive women were considered legitimate trophies of war and in fact the Prophet marries a Jewess whose husband has been slain. Although we can construe this practice to be “pro-sexuality,” it is hard to imagine how this paleolithic approach to romance serves the interests of feminism.

    ..rules in Chapter 24 of the Koran are revealed in response to an alleged tryst between Aishah, Muhammad’s child bride and a young soldier. Afraid of losing his prized pubescent amour, the Prophet was comforted when God revealed to him that she could not be convicted without four eyewitnesses. As the supposed “roll in the sand” between Aishah and her young soldier took place in the wastelands of Arabia, there was little chance of her accusers meeting these high standards of evidence.
    The above is an example of how conveniently allah reveals himself to mohammad.

    Note also the requirement for four [b]eyewitnessses to a rape essentially also condones rape in that it renders it practically impossible to prove it. )

  • @catman517 - He is not given sexual access to anybody. He is given sexual access to whomever he marries. There is a difference.

    Nowhere does it say he can marry someone by force. Marriage is a two-way thing, and therefore, there is no issue with him marrying the “Jewess.” If she wanted it, then there is no issue. Times like that it was difficult, and one could say that marrying a widow is doing her a favour, because he can support her. Those days weren’t like these days.

    Please cite sources. I know what you are talking about, and your story is not the same one I know.

    I don’t have the time to go around in circles. I have seen all of these verses and arguments before. The thing is, I took the time to study them properly.

  • @catman517 - Oh, also, the four eyewitness rule is nothing to do with rape. It is to do with adultery. And I don’t know if you know, but it is not exclusively four witnesses. One person can act as the four witnesses as long as they know in their hearts that if they are lying, they will be punished in the hereafter for it.

  • Rape is rape and hate is hate no matter what twist you want to put on it. When you take a wife of an enemy and use the word wife to condon sex that is still rape. What are your thoughts on all the girls that where poisoned becaused they wanted to learn. Can you justify that also?

  • @catman517 - I never tried to justify rape or hate, so I don’t understand where “also” comes in. I am not putting a twist on anything. Of course rape is not okay. A lot of the basic laws of Islaam are with the intention of ultimately avoiding rape, so please don’t try to say that rape is okay in Islaam.

    Of course I don’t justify that, I think it’s disgusting, and I was one of the first people to speak out when I heard about that girl who got acid thrown into her eye because she was on her way to school.

    Don’t assume that all Muslims are the same. And do not assume that what a Muslim does must be part of Islaam’s teachings.

    Also, don’t respond to me, because clearly, you have no intention of learning about Islaam before talking about it. There is a difference between throwing a verse out there, with your own interpretation of it, and actually studying a verse, to understand it, and then sharing it with a Muslim and asking about it.

    I have had a lot of friends who have had issues with certain verses, and I have been more than happy to answer their questions, if I know the answer, and if I don’t, I love the opportunity to learn more, so I go and ask around and find an answer, and discuss it with said friend.

    However, you have made no apparent effort to understand the verses you spew, and half of the things you say are made up. I don’t blame you, though. You probably heard it from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from someone… who made it up.

    Don’t think I am not up for discussion. I really am. However, I am not about to spend my time speaking to somebody with no intention of actually listening. And yes, you are that person. Proof of that? We went from Afghanistan, to rape, then to girls being attacked for wanting to find an education, all within the space of less than half an hour. And to top that off, not one of those things have any basis in Islaam.

    It is on you, now. If you want to really learn, then I suggest you read a Qur’aan (not off the internet, buy a proper one), then ask around about it (not off the internet, but from a qualified person to speak about that), then you can discuss things with me. It is your choice. Or, of course, you can opt not to do any of that, and I am just as happy for you to choose that, so long as you don’t spread lies about my faith. As my first comment said (in so many words), you only make yourself look ignorant that way.

    And for what it’s worth, I am not sure of exact figures, but very few people will take the comments of someone who uses such vile words as sand-nigger seriously.

  • I understand, no problem it’s hard to justify something’s. I for one have read the entire book from cover to cover. And I’m sorry to say I know the truth which so many choose to ignore. But in the end will pay the ultimate price. Truly my heart goes out to you and all how follow this hate. What I was trying to do is to show you that all things you say I jump around on is to point out to you this is not a religion of love and peace but of hate and intolerance for others. There are things I agree very strongly with, I admire the no tolerance for crime and homosexuality. If that where the case, crime in the US and Canada would be alot less.

    I would love to have a intellegual dialogue with you

  • Freedom of religion to me is more important than freedom of expression. I’m Christian, but I have an immense respect for Islaam. Their reverence for their prophets is far more admirable than what Christians do to their saints and to Jesus.

    @OhItWontBeForever - I think you’re arguing this quite well and knowledgeably. I’m here supporting you, and I’ve agreed with everything you’ve said in all your comments :) *high-five*

  • @puella_sapiens216 - I love you so much. So so much. Sosososososososo much.

    I have utmost respect for you, not just because of this, but because of your constant respectful attitude. Honestly. I wish more people were like you.

    dfgkjfdgjdfshg. I love you.

    I just noticed he replied. I am not bothered replying back, now. He can have the last word.

  • @OhItWontBeForever - Aww thank you I don’t like bashing of religions. I want to encourage others in their faiths. I mean jeez, I told an atheist (you can guess who, I’m sure) that I was happy for his recent “spiritual atheism”. To me it doesn’t matter that someone’s Muslim, atheist, Jewish, etc – each person follows their own faith for a reason. I wish everyone could just peacefully respect each belief and not be so distastefully ignorant (like some peoples’ comments here).
    Ugh. Sometimes, these types of arguments make me a little sick and lose respect for those who are ignorant and rude.
    Humanity’s a cruel bunch.

    And I sososososososososososososososo love you too!

  • @puella_sapiens216 - I agree with every letter you typed, even the winky, and the fact that you love me, cos I mean, who doesn’t? haha jk.

    Seriously, all truth. I honestly love for people to have different beliefs, because it makes the world interesting, but my gosh, when people get rude, then it becomes an issue!

  • @OhItWontBeForever - We don’t need to make our relationship known on Dan’s site… lol
    But yes, it’s all these different religious views that make this world so cool and amazing. If we were all the same… boy, it would be quite a dull world I think!

  • @puella_sapiens216 - Oh sorreh. 

    Agreed!

  • I value consistency; it isn’t fair to ridicule all other religions without discretion while worrying about Islam.

  • @syedanoor - I see.  Well it has always been my understanding that it’s not OK to depict Muhammad in Islam.  Of course non-Moslems can do whatever they want regarding that.  In any case, I think it’s worth asking yourself why he forbade people to make depictions of him?

  • @syedanoor - Non-threatening and non-violent protests are fine whether you like them or not.  Simpler.  Done.

  • @OhItWontBeForever - well not necessarily Jesus but one of the commandments is not to use the Lord’s  name in vain which they often times spit in the face of I dont ask that they stop making fun of things just that they make fun of in equality

  • @bri_pekar - I wouldn’t either, it’s just an example …

  • @Ambrosius_Augustus_Rex - It more is a respect thing.  In Islam, it is said that making visual drawings of any human being is like challenging God and disrespecting His Creation.  This is furthermore practiced with the Prophet because no one knows what he looks like and since he (along with the other Prophets in Islam, including Jesus) is of such caliber in the ranks of God, it would be of sheer disrespect to try to reproduce him (his face) visually.

    @jwfarns - I never said anything about threatening protests being okay, so why are you making it seem as if I condone violence?  There are other ways to protest, other ways to get your point across without offending fellow citizens of our country. That’s all I’m trying to say, whether you like to see that or not.  Simplest.  And done.

  • @syedanoor - Because you always follow it with a “BUT”.  ”Threats are not acceptable BUT…..”  The implication being that they are excusable or understandable in this case because of the nature of the offense that was taken.  If you don’t mean that, then leave out the “but”.

  • @jwfarns - Are you really going to start nitpicking with my grammar when it’s pretty obvious that I’ve been saying the same thing over and over again?  I’ve used “but” once in our exchange of comments, this was the time I used it:
    ” Like I said before, it’s not okay to threaten people like that, ever.  But there are better ways of protesting. “

    “But” is in the beginning of another sentence; a sentence addressing a different situation than the one before it.  In the first sentence, I am clearly stating that threatening people is wrong.  The “but” is in response to you regarding the drawing of the Prophet to signify that while you may think that this form of protesting is okay, there are better ways to protest.

  • @syedanoor - That logic is equally applicable to photographs.  

  • @Ambrosius_Augustus_Rex - That’s very true, which is why a lot of Islamic scholars do feel that photographs displaying a person’s face shouldn’t be taken.  The subject is just that much more elevated/sacred though because this is dealing with Prophets of God rather than just commoners.

  • @syedanoor - I think I understand what you are saying.  You think that when people express themselves it should conform to what you would consider respectful.  My point is that as long as the expression is non-threatening and non-violent, it doesn’t matter whether you find it respectful or not — it is the RIGHT of the person who is expressing themselves to do so HOWEVER they want to in a non-violent, non-threatening way.  Respect is not a factor in freedom of expression.  Freedom of expression means free to be disrespectful.  Period.  Full stop.  No ifs ands or buts.  

    (I did read your posts, not just responses to me, but your initial response and responses to others.)
    “

    but this respect should be taken into consideration when doing
    such things

    .  What you think might be a
    joke may be going too far for a lot of people.”

    – “I can understand the intentions, and can
    also see why a lot of people outside the fold of Islam may not understand why

     

    it’s insulting, but the fact remains that a lot of Muslims have
    indeed established (through violent AND non-violent means) that we really don’t
    appreciate this being done. 

    I just feel that there are better ways of
    protesting than by insulting people who haven’t done anything wrong

    . 
    Even if it isn’t the main intention, that doesn’t make it any less
    disrespectful.”

    – “I can agree with what you’re saying, just not the way that
    may ensue though.

    I love dialogue between different people with different thought
    and completely condone it.  But even with opposing viewpoints as a means
    to shed light on different perspectives, there should be a line that an
    individual should know that they shouldn’t cross.  There isn’t anything
    wrong with criticism as long as its constructive rather than making a
    mockery about what someone considers sacred,     ya know? =)”

    —” There’s nothing wrong with
    disagreeing with anything, but there should be respect in that criticism. 
    =)”

    “And again, I’m not saying that special provisions
    should be made only for Islam, I’m talking about all religions and like
    thoughts.  Just like how I feel that religion shouldn’t be made a
    mockery of,     I don’t agree with religious people thinking its okay to make
    fun of Atheism or Agnosticism just because they don’t follow a similar belief
    system.”

  • @jwfarns - I’m not saying that anyone should conform to Islamic thought, if you know there is any type of thing that is going to disrespect a lot of people, then other modes of protest should be found.

    There are better ways to protest which gets your point across without showing blatant disregard to a whole population of people, and that is what each and every one of my comments has said.

  • @syedanoor - I understand what you are saying.  Do you understand what I am saying?  Because I get the distinct impression that you just don’t understand “freedom of expression” or are unwilling to accept that it means that it doesn’t matter if someone or a whole bunch of someones is offended.  I get the impression that you only accept freedom of speech/freedom of expression as long as no one gets offended, which is not true freedom.  There are very few types of expression that are unacceptable.  Child porn is unacceptable.  Threats are unacceptable.  Certain gang-related expressions are unacceptable because of the threat that is implied.  Ridiculing or mocking a religious or political system is acceptable, even if you or a whole group of people finds it offensive.  Creating artwork that a whole group or class of people find offensive is perfectly acceptable.  It may be in poor taste and be more a commentary on what a loser the artist or speaker is than anything else, but that is their right.  That is what living in a multi-cultural, multi-religious, multi-ethnic society has to be if all of those groups are to be free to live according to their own precepts.  Individuals have the right to make a fool of themselves and to offend others.

  • @jwfarns - I understand what freedom of expression means, and how it can often be a double-edged sword.  I’m not saying that freedom of expression is limited only to that which doesn’t offend others, I’m talking about a people who choose to protest in a manner that gets their points across of this freedom with taking sensitivity to heart.

    You’re definition of what is acceptable and what is not may very well be objective.  Because while you may not enjoy child porn, I’m sure that there are many people out there who find nothing wrong with exploiting young children (even though, you, I and most people find this unethical).  Likewise, just because you feel that religion is something that is okay to make a mockery of, does not mean that it is indeed okay across the board.

    I’m not forcing anyone to live according to my rules; I’m not imposing anything upon anyone.  I just don’t believe that the only way to get a point across, in this case, by very clearly disrespecting a faith, is by attacking someone else’s faith, and that is exactly what is being done here.  Even though it is said that is not the “intention”, by knowing clearly that your acts cause distress amongst a large community makes it apart of your intention.

    I’m not here discussing the extents of freedom of expression, because that freedom includes a lot of things that both of us may or may not like (hence the double-edged sword comment above), it is our job as the users of that freedom to use it responsibly and sensibly.

  • @syedanoor - This blog topic asks what you value more, freedom of speech or freedom of religion.  I think that you cannot have freedom of religion without having true freedom of expression and so I value freedom of expression more BECAUSE it allows me to practice my religion freely.  What that means is that I have to not only accept but defend the right of anyone to express themselves freely, even those people who are deliberately offensive.

    When you say that it is our job to use that freedom responsibly and sensibly, you open a huge can of worms, so to speak.  Freedom should be exercised responsibly, but who gets to decide what is “responsible” and “sensible” when it comes to free speech (or any other freedom)?  What if I am being responsible and sensible according to my way of thinking but not to yours?  Would it be nice if everyone was sensitive to others’ beliefs and non-offensive?  Would it be nice if everyone was responsible and sensible?  Sure, that would be nice, but it’s not going to happen and has nothing to do with the question.  And let’s face facts, there is very little that can be said or done on the topics of religion or politics that isn’t going to offend a whole lot of people, no matter how delicately you state the matter. 

    The person who called for “Everyone Draw Mohammed Day” felt that the best way to get their point across was to do exactly as they did.  It did offend a whole group of people, but brought to the attention of the world this very discussion.  So it did part of what the artist intended it to do — in a non-violent, non-threatening manner.  This person probably risked their life to do this because of the subject matter.  Islamic extremists are not known for their gentleness and mercy.  So I can only assume that it was not done lightly or as a joke.  It is only by showing that those who value freedom are willing to exercise it and defend it that those who would bully us into giving up our freedoms can be defeated.

  • @jwfarns - I agree that freedom of religion falls into freedom of expression.

    And exactly what I am trying to say by exercising freedom is that neither you or I are in the position of saying what is ethical and what is not because those views are always going to be different in someone else’s eyes.  And I disagree with you that this protest has spread this issue around the world.  I live in a major city, and I haven’t heard of this spreading outside of xanga, really. 

    That’s like saying that if a bully steals your lunch money, you should punch him in the face to let him know you can’t have it.  Only in this case, innocent people have started feeling uncomfortable in a state they call home and despite all the ruckus this seems to have caused, I doubt that the people to whom this message was directed towards got it.

  • @syedanoor - Unless you are willing to exercise your freedoms and defend your freedoms, you will lose your freedoms.  Caving in to threats is to value safety over freedom and what you end up with is neither safety nor freedom.  Drawing cartoons is hardly a punch in the face, especially when what provoked the cartoons was death threats.  It’s more like pulling out a rubber chicken when confronted with a bomb.

    As for thinking this topic is confined to xanga, think again.  A google search for Everybody Draw Mohammed Day turns up over 3.5 million articles and over 100 news stories.  I didn’t read them all, but do you think Dan gets his ideas for Theologian’s Cafe from some obscure source that no one else ever sees?  No, he gets a lot of these topics from mainstream media stories.  The tendency of radicals of all kinds, not just Muslims, to do or incite violence over non-believers’ “offenses” is creating quite a storm of backlash.  I think it will get worse before it gets better.

  • @jwfarns - It is popular because of its controversial nature.  I haven’t seen it on campuses, in the city or heard of it being made into much of a public deal otherwise.

    Drawing anyone isn’t going to make any terrorist think twice about his death threats.  This method of protest may seem symbolic to us, but in the eyes of a blood-thirsty killer, I doubt he sees it in any way that we do.

  • @syedanoor - The internet is public and many, if not all, news outlets have discussion boards for articles.  Perhaps there are no physical public forums or displays, but the internet is a public forum, and there is a lot of discussion and comment on the internet, and it addresses not just this specific protest, but other instances of artists who have been threatened by extremists.

    I doubt they ever will see it the way we do, but that does not mean we need to respond in-kind with terrorism and death threats.  We also cannot allow the terrorism and death threats to rule our lives.  And it is useless to try to enter into a dialog with extremists because they don’t listen, they just dictate and expect us to obey “or else”.
    I think that allowing the national policy to be “We aren’t going to start any violence, but if you start it, we WILL finish it” is appropriate for a government to take, but not necessarily for an individual.  
    That means that individual protests need to take a different form, as in not changing what we do because someone is threatening violence and bodily harm, or even taking it the extra step by doing whatever it was again just to emphasize that we do not take our freedom nor the sacrifices of those who secure and protect it lightly.  That can be one person or it can be a concerted effort on the part of many individuals, and is going to be offensive the second time more than it was the first.  That is what freedom is.

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  • @jwfarns - Then we can simply agree to disagree, because I don’t see where this conversation is going anymore.

  • I will participate in this.

  • I have respect for people in general.  So I’m not going to draw Mohammed and I’m not going to tell you that you can’t..

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