April 28, 2010
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The Bible and Its Stories
I mentioned in my last post that a group of people think they found Noah’s Ark.
This got me thinking about the story of Noah’s Ark. According to the Bible, God decided to flood the whole Earth with rain. This killed off the entire population except Noah and his loved ones who spent 120 years building an Ark to protect them from the rain and flooding.
Do you believe the story is true that God flooded the whole Earth and saved only Noah on his Ark?
Comments (143)
@TheSmokeMonster - Seconded mon ami.
Yep!
Yeah, why not?
No.
Absolutely, just like Santa Claus and Rudolph the red nose reindeer.
Yes, sir. Can’t explain it all… but that’s why it’s faith. I believe in a God who can do the impossible, so why not?
Fuck no.
A world-wide “flood” of such a scale would have left a fucking swath of social, geological, natural, linguistic, historical, and biological evidence. Yet, we have none.
No.
Hahaha heck no and if so, why would “He” flood the earth and kill everyone if “He” loves us all? Also, why save a 100 and something year old drunk man and his family over thousands of children? Plus, it’d have to be a MASSIVE ark to support every single animal on the planet… And people think kids are gullible for believing in Santa…
It took Noah and friends 120 years to build the ark? And people complain that road construction projects are too slow…
Hell no. Have you read Genesis 6? The whole thing is preposterous. I mean, Incubi. INCUBI!
Nope
yes i belive in all the stories in the bible that is why we have faith
Yes I do.
@Masked_Melody - Yes, sir. Can’t explain it all… but that’s why it’s faith. I believe in a God who can do the impossible, so why not?
So God actually went back and cleaned up all evidence of the flood after it happened? A good God isn’t a deceptive God.
Even as a Christian, I believe it’s probably a Hebrew adaptation of other Flood stories, such as the Assyrian tale of Utanapishtim. I wouldn’t be surprised if they did find a boat, though. Stories have to come from somewhere.
@Rob_of_the_Sky - nice perspective
Indeed.
Well.
I have a really hard time believing that actually.
There is some scientific evidence that the world was under water.
Not anymore.
Absolutely not! You forgot the rest of the family that was saved. His sons and their wives came too! And the animals!
Cannot believe there are people that still take stories like this from the bible literally.
No. No. Some above have it right, Santa seems just as plausible. But as long as people acknowledge there’s no factual basis for this belief and keep it to themselves, it’s fine by me. Just don’t ask anyone else to believe the nonsense. However, ignorance is not to be respected.
@Rob_of_the_Sky - But, Noah was hopefully smart enough not to build the ark in the way of people as they were trying to pass through. I don’t mind construction projects so long as they don’t delay or prolong my trip.
fiddlesticks.
Yup. And there is TONS of evidence for it… everywhere.
@TheSmokeMonster - There is evidence of a great flood.
ROFL.
@Masked_Melody - Couldn’t have said it better
yes! and if they found that ark, they are going to have to do a lot of work before launch !
@TheSmokeMonster - it sounds like your mocking someones faith…. What ever happened to respect… jeez.
i am glad there are so many ‘gods’ commenting this post. and the answer is yes.
Well, He saved Noah’s family and the animal kingdom as well. But yeah, I believe that it happened and that there is evidence other than just a possible ark for the global flood.
No. A population growth from 8 to cca 7 billion would not be possible in that short a time, I think?
I believe that God did everything they said He did.
I’m not retarded, so no.
Well gosh commenters, way to be rude to Christians
this question should only apply to people who believe in God, no? >.<
@iamthebella - it sounds like your mocking someones faith…. What ever happened to respect… jeez.
Silly claims don’t deserve respect.
@SlackerSociety - There is evidence of a great flood.
Please enlighten me: What and where?
@CrystallineFigurines - Yup. And there is TONS of evidence for it… everywhere.
It would be nice if you could type to or three more lines showing how this claim is anything but hilarious bullshit.
@MagisterTom - Absolutely not! You forgot the rest of the family that was saved. His sons and their wives came too! And the animals!
How long ago was this? Ballpark range. Thousands of years ago? Millions? Billions?
there may have been a regional flood.
Yes.
People need to have respect for other people’s beliefs.
Yes, I do believe the stories in the Bible. Noah and his loved ones weren’t the only ones it, but so were two of each animal.
My question to you is, where did you hear it took them 120 years to build it? I looked in my Bible and nowhere does it state (unless I missed it) that it took them that long.
it wasn’t only noah on the boat. the biblical story says he had his wife, his three sons, and sons’ wives also on board.
i also think people are ignorant of the fact that noah’s ark isn’t only a christian story, it is also found in islam (noah is one of the five prophets and the flood/boat story is accounted for in the sura hud book of the quran). so i don’t think only christians should be in this blind huzzah that this alleged “ark” and whatever other purported evidence found is any sort of proof that attests to to only one religion.
Yeah, I do.
Absolutely. The evidence is overwhelming. Not only do you have cultures around the globe dating back to antiquity with variations of the story (implying such an event did, in fact, take place) but you have the way layers of sediment line up world-wide, featured such as the Grand Canyon, and even the fossil record (which is quite compelling in this matter). And geographic evidence of this sort merely points to the existance of a global flood between 4,000-10,000 years ago and not the Biblical account per se, additional evidence for the accuracy of the Bible can be taken into account to present a very convincing case to one who has an open mind to objectively look at the evidence.
@TheSmokeMonster - I would be more than happy to provide an answer for you if you are genuinely asking for an answer in this matter. My appologies if this runs long. I will be trying to condense quite a bit here. Let’s start with the cultural record. Worldwide, we see stories dating back into ancient times of floods stories liken unto the account of Noah. Surely you are familiar with one such tale from the Babylonian epics of Gilgamesh. Such stories are not limited to just the Middle East either. We see tales reaching even into Polynesian cultures. Most certainly you see variations in the details. Some accounts like Gilgamesh have a more localized flood while others like the Polynesians have a giant log instead of a boat. Questions of which account, if any, is the correct one is not to be found by looking at this alone. One must look at the accounts themselves, how they were transcribed to us, and look at how accurate the manuscripts or verbal traditions of each to ascertain this. (I believe you read my response to you on here back around Easter that addressed the Bible in this regard so I will leave that matter be for now to save time.)
Next, we have the fossil record. for this, we must start by asking ourselves what we would expect to find if the world had flooded as in the account of Noah. First, we would expect that the sediment would be organized into layers much as we see is the case. One look at the Grand Canyon demonstrates this perfectly. furthermore, we would expect there to be a great number of fossils of numerous animals and plants worldwide. Now, I should take a moment here to point out that fossils are formed rapidly (not gradually over hundreds of years). Sediment does not slowly accumulate over something and form a fossil as it would decay long before it would ever even be covered. This is especially obvious with softbodied animals such as jellyfish and plants. Yet we find these fossils in abundance even in mountain ranges. This demonstrates that the rocks and sedimentary layers in these mountains found around the world were at one time under water. Not only that, but that the sediment in those layers was piled quickly over the plants and animals in order to preserve them. We even see cases where trees are upside down protruding more than one layer of sediment. For this to take place, a massive flood would have to have been in each of these regions. Would it have been possible for tsunamis and other catyclismic events to have taken place in every single location? Perhaps. But a more plausible solution (especially in light of the other evidence) would be that there was a global flood at one point in time.
The question of a global flood has not really been in question though, has it? I mean, even evolutionary scientists refer to “the deluge” do they not? The question becomes not one of IF but of WHEN a global flood took place. Now, if there is evidence that such a flood took place during the time-frame that Noah would have existed, would you concede that the case for the validity of the account of Noah is in good standing? I am not asking you to believe it, mind you. I am only requesting that you keep an open mind and look at the evidence objectively. This is no more than you would ask of me is it not?
@Legendairy - I was going to write a comment on how I believe the account as in the bible is true,
but you took the words out of my mouth. =]]
Even as a kid I had trouble with the Noah’s Ark story. I kept imagining all the animals at the tip of Africa and Tierra del Fuego and Australia and Sumatra and wondered how Noah tracked them down and herded them the 1000s of miles back to the Ark.
I also wondered how every single animal on earth could fit inside one single boat and why the heck a world full of wild animals would consent to being put in the boat. Also how do you feed all of them and keep the leopards from eating the sheep and so on.
And where do you put all that poop?
@Legendairy - That is a very well reasoned and rational thought. I respect the care you put into your response. Thank you
@Legendairy - Thanks for patient reply, will look to rebut/comment later in day.
Man, I was hoping for a neat picture to go with this post. Disappointment.
Im going to say yes I do believe this…because jesus walking on water seems insane but he did it according to the bible. who knows..the way we interpret things may not be how they were meant to be interpreted
Yes, I do.
@ccarothers - I know right? Dan’s slacking on the photo for this one. Maybe we could all help him find a better shot?
Yeah, of course. And unicorns fly out of my ass every time I fart.
LOL! I mean, come on people! It’s 2010. Time to abandon silly fairy tales.
yes, I do
@Legendairy - This was the most well thought out, non argumentative reply to a comment that I’ve seen in a long time. Thanks for being willing to provide it on such a potentially volatile topic.
@ccarothers - I posted some possible pics that would be more fun in a blog – gotta help a friend out when he’s too tired to search for pics and uses recycled ones instead right?
my coworker and i were just talking about this the other day. WEIRD.
anyway, regardless of whether or not it actually happened, i believe the stories in the bible are in there to teach us something. what i get out of noah’s ark is: storms will come and sometimes they destroy the world we know (our current lives), but God has promised to bring us through the storms of life. we need only to listen and trust in Him.
it’s really not the story that’s of importance (whether or not it actually happened), it’s what we take away from them that help mold us into better people.
at least,… that is the way i live my faith
@tsh44 - I saw!! And rec’d… Definitely made my morning. :0)
No.
The comments, however, are quite lol-worthy.
Christians, get one thing straight. If other religious/non-religious denominations do not agree with you/the bible/your religion and think of it differently ie: “silly story” this is NOT disrespecting you. This is their opinion on the matter. They don’t have to think it’s real, or give it respect because to them, it’s false, faux, wrong. It doesn’t matter what you believe, because someone else IS ALLOWED to believe something different, and the fact that they do, is NOT disrespectful, NOR IS IT DISRESPECTFUL for them to call it as plausible as santa. That is THEIR belief.
And as long as you want YOUR beliefs to not be infringed upon, don’t infringe upon theirs.
THE END. I got ticked at so many Christians here getting all huffy cause non-Christians think Noah’s ark is a bunch of phooey.
BUILD.
A BRIDGE.
AND.
GET OVER IT.
There are better things in life to be pissy about. If your religion is about love, then look the other way, or say that you respect their opinions/views.
No.
Yes.
oh.. i didn’t know it was 120 years ..
@TheSmokeMonster - But One who has ways much higher than yours is!
Yup.
No.
@Legendairy - Big ups for the excellent research! I even read some reasonable info that answers where all that water came from(cause this wasn’t a normal flash flood but a cataclysm/deluge) and where it went if it was enough to cover all of the tall mountains. Apparently ALL that water is STILL here on earth.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - The vast number of animal species today wouldn’t be able to fit on the ark, therefore they’re the descendants of the different animal “kinds” that were on the ark, the same way that the vast different variety of us (mankind), in sizes and shapes, are the descendants of Noah and his family.
Utnapishtim, Atra-Hasis, Ziusudra, Da Yu, Manu, Deucalion, the Spider Woman… The deluge myth (complete with divinely-warned survivors in boats) is just about universal, with versions told in almost every culture.
Just saying.
@bluepillorredpill - Older animals are actually larger than modern animals. The fossil record shows exactly the opposite of what you are saying.
And you still haven’t explained how Noah gathered animals from Tierra del Fuego.
Um no.
A silly fable.
I do believe in the flood, but I believe it was a huge local flood. Not necessarily a global flood. Again, for the Biblical argument for this read “A Biblical Case For An Old Earth” by David Snoke.
@quicksandbuddy -The first five books of the Bible predate the other holy books by several millenniums. It’s the flood myths (or creation myths) around the world and from ancient pagan religions that are adaptations of the actual Biblical flood.
@Cognizant_Wolf - I think it was somewhere between 50-70 years, I think.
I’m not sure. I do believe there was a flood. There has been evidence of floods and natural disasters around that time. I do believe Noah and his family built an ark and rode out the storm. I do believe they were the only ones in that area to survive. Where I have trouble is in the fact that there are flood stories from cultures all around the world. I have to wonder is it from an oral tradition passed down as Noah’s descendants rapidly scattered all around the world? (Is that really likely?) Or is it from other survivors of the flood in other places? I also find it hard to believe that Noah and his family were the only people on earth worth saving. Biblical texts come mostly from one area of the world. I’d be surprised if those people were aware just how big Earth is. So, perhaps, the flood wiped out everyone living in the part of the world they know, so thus they wrote that the entire earth was flooded and no one but they survived.
Sometimes it’s tough juggling faith, science, and common sense.
The Bible isn’t the only book that chronicles a great flood.
The Hindu Puranic story of Manu, Deucalion in Greek Mythology and Unatpishtim in the Epic of Gilgamesh.
I do think there is credibility to the story, and on faith alone…perhaps I’m willing to put more stock in it.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - If it were me, I’d just dump the poop overboard.
Yes, his word is the TRUTH.
well something like that in fact did happen, according to scientists(flood enormous)but perhaps the bibles dates wer not accurate or historians are misreading dates.i am a believer any way from personal experiences.
@joyouswind - Right, but you’d need an army to get the job done. Noah’s family was only a handful of people.
Lol no. Interpretation of natural disasters as the wrath of the gods is nothing I put confidence in. Biblical accounts aren’t the only ones, but flooding of some sort happens just about everywhere it rains, some places more than others, and sometimes there are strange but explicable circumstances. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_myth
yes
@crystal_air - Ha, where?
@Starshine_Faerie - Well, please feel free to take on the issues I didn’t address yet. The number of animals in the ark, the issue of when such a flood took place, the issue of land elevation, and a few assorted other topics that would have made my comment simply too long to read.
@Legendairy - Oh dear, I wonder if I could do them justice though. I have to say I don’t give scientific explanations much thought when it comes to my faith, because it doesn’t rely on that, for me. I admit openly I would have to research a lot more before I could venture to explain when the flooding took place and land elevation, but as to the number of animals on the ark, I would say it’s much as how all the different races and ethnicities came to be. While I do not believe in creation-through-evolution, I am willing to agree that, to a certain degree, some differences did come up later. But then I would also say that when God says that animals of every kind, he is not saying “all different reptiles”… the dinosaurs, for example, were not on the ark. Crocodiles, however, were.
And when it comes to climate and how so many animals lived “so far away”, supposedly… it says in the bible that the flood was the first time it rained. Before the flood, no rain had fallen upon the earth. This is one of the reasons why people thought Noah was so crazy. A flood? Seriously? Water from heaven? Get real. Life, climate, vegetation, as we know it today, was most likely extremely different to Noah’s time, and continents and their location also most likely changed after the flood. Seas, their location, river-routes… all of it changed.
But in the end, when trying to explain these things, I always come back to the fact that the flood was an Act of God. It was supernatural, and it went beyond the boundaries of reason. Just as when the sun stood still for one day in Joshua.
These are things that sceptics will always criticize and point out, saying “explain that”. … but that isn’t really the point, is it? Some things aren’t meant to be explained, because God doesn’t need to explain Himself.
Those are my two cents at any rate… =]]
@TheGiantSlayer - @ccarothers - You’re quite welcome. I realize that there is a difference in seeing something as having a reasonable case behind it to believe it and actually believing it. My thinking is that if I can demonstrate the former, perhaps a someone who reads it will be interested enough to look into it themselves and eventually come to the latter. Maybe not. Still, I believe that God loves each individual enough to give them the choice of whether to choose to believe Him or not. All I try to do is raise the question in that regard. It’s not my job to answer it for them. That’s between them and God.
@bluepillorredpill - Thank you, and yes, that is really interesting stuff. There are a few issues I left out due to the already lengthy nature of my comment. Where all the water went, the issue of land elevation, the time of when such a flood took place (which is a huge set of issues in itself), and even how so many animals fit on the boat and were cared for. I addressed a few of the most pertinant issues but there is much more to it as you, yourself, have pointed out.
No…but historical accurancy is not the important part of biblical writings…spiritual awareness is.
@Starshine_Faerie - I would encourage you to study up on it if you get the opportunity. Seeing the evidence can serve to strengthen one’s faith greatly. Take the ethnicity issue (which is actually the same issue as that of how so many animals were crammed into the ark.) The answer is a matter of natural selection so to speak. When a child is born, it posseses some of (but not all) of the genetic information from each parent. This is why children do not look identical to their parents. extrapolate for time, and you begin to see much greater differences. Now, all of the genetic information that would be required for these variations was present in the parents, grandparents, and even ancestors and what we see is actually a degradation of the genome as it begins to simplify over time. Thus, you have various ethnicities in humans and various breeds of dogs. In the case of dogs, if you trace it back, they were all still dogs. That never changes, but when you blend the entire genome into one by tracing it back, you get a wolf-like dog with the genetic potential for each breed. Apply this to every species and the number of animals is vastly reduced. Furthermore, to reduce this even more, there are some animals that would not need to be on the ark to survive. Fish and marine life could easily have remained in the water for all that time. What you eventually find is that the ark would have had plenty of room and that you even could fit the dinosaurs (though some could have survived outside the ark) and still had room to move about without any problem. Ultimately, you won’t find me trying to argue a case for HOW God did it, only pointing to the evidence that exists THAT He did it. If the likelihood of the event can be shown, then it does not matter so much how it was done.
@Legendairy - *in complete agreement*
I guess it would be wrong for me to say I have no interest in studying the causes whatsoever, for it is great to be able to explain these things the way you have, even just for oneself.
I have been living in Germany the past 13 years, my dad is a pastor, building a church in our area, and Germans consider themselves to be very modern and liberal. They have little tolerance for any religion, be it Christianity or Islam or Judaism (though few would ever admit to the last of the three based upon an overreacting paranoia of stereotype since the second world war). You cannot, and I am serious, you cannot discuss it with them. Evolution is proven, God is the invention of human minds who, although knowing that man is created from dust, could not explain how this came to be with science, for their brains were underdeveloped at this time, and therefore they invented God.
One of my professors asked me to leave his class when, during the study of “the origin of the english language” we went back to the first languages, and he said that after a certain point, the ties between different languages cannot be understood or traced as easily. He added with a chuckle “unless of course you believe the myth of babel”, and an acquaintance of mine in the class pointed at me and said “well she believes that”. He looked at me completely incredulous and asked if I was serious. I said that I was. He said his class is set up to teach educated and liberal minds and he doesn’t think I will have any use out of it. I had to go through several offices to stay in class. These are the types of people who will not listen to points as you made above, they will not acknowledge their logic and let you be in your belief, so I guess over the years I have sort of come to a stronger “it doesn’t matter what evidence you conjure, it doesn’t matter how logically you explain it, if they don’t want to believe it, they won’t, it’s just a faith issue” mentality.
In retrospect, you are right, but it is difficult to keep that in mind when you live here. =D
I should probably apologize to Dan at this point for littering his post with my autobiography… ^_^
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - If you are interested, I addressed the issue of the number of animals in my comment above. As for the issues of leopards and sheep, the Bible says that meat was not given to be used as food until after the flood. In regards to the gathering of all the animals, keep in mind that God did that and that the continents were not necesarily so divided at that time. With water issuing forth from the ground in such great volumes, is would not be unreasonable to assume that a great deal of shifting of the earth’s crust would take place at that time. There is also Genesis 10:25 which mentions a man named Peleg whose name means ‘division’ because it was in his day that the lands were divided. I am not saying that this was a geological division, but merely pointing out that it is a possibility and would answer some of the questions posed. As for the poop thing, well, you got me on that one. hahaha
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - I think when you’re dealing with mass flooding, epic destruction, and a bunch of smelly animals on your toes, the poop is the least of your concerns… ;]]
I’d say they tossed it overboard. I mean, water of that depth shouldn’t have a problem with a little organic mass…. =D
@Starshine_Faerie - Nah, Dan is cool about that stuff. I certainly see how difficult is must be for you. I have come across instructors in the past who were similar to that but would never have gone so far as to say and do what your professor did because it would put thier jobs in jeopardy. Certainly some people are genuinely closed-minded and their faith that God doesn’t exist is just that… faith. When a person closes themself off like that, it is a demonstration that thier belief system is basically a religion to them and one they hold fanatically to. They would never admit it of course. Sometimes the best way to approach them is by asking the right questions. Don’t get me wrong, I am not passing judgement on you for a lack of interest in the topic. I can’t say that I would see things much different had I grown up in your position. It can be pretty demoralizing to see that much prejudice based on something you choose to believe. I would encourage you, however, to try to not let that cause you to think that just because most won’t listen that none will. I certainly understand where you’re coming from though.
When I was 10 and went to church EVERY week I thought the bible stories were just that; stories. I still feel the same way.
@Starshine_Faerie - Germany sounds great.
@Pcgecko85 - Oh don’t get me wrong, I like Germany. There are many nice people here, and the culture is a fading but interesting one. They just have a certain mentality towards beliefs, ethics, morale, and liberal-modernism that can be difficult to handle sometimes.
I wouldn’t believe it to be the ‘ark’ rather than any old boat in the first place. Nor do I believe that there is any possiblity it would have contained every single insect, animal,etc, and that they all went back to their respective places on the globe immediately following the flood. Nor do I believe that every race of human being evolved from a couple of white people in the middle east just a few thousand years ago. No way. Nor do I believe that many of the writings in the bible would come from God. I have also studied the quoran, and I don’t believe a lot of things in the quoran came from God. I believe that man made religion as a form of power by way of fear, at the worst, or a way of explaining the unexplainable, at the best. Not to say that i don’t believe in ‘God’. I don’t know what to believe. I know that some things are beyond my understanding. My vision and understanding is limited to earth.
Can we ever be know for sure? Were we there?
I know it in my heart to be true, but it won’t shatter my faith if God intended that story to be a parable of some sort.
@Legendairy - My dad once joked that evolutionists have more faith than he does to think we evolved from random specks of dust as opposed to a Divine Being. =]]
The thing is with German professors is that Germany is known as the “land of poets and thinkers” and the universities pride themselves on their liberal thinking, and no one would ever fire a professor for such a thing. You can’t really fire professors and teachers as a general rule, as it is a “beamter” job, which is essentially the same as being a soldier. The government pays your salary, you have tax benefits, et cetera. There are also no laws that speak against fraternising with your students (at a college level at any rate, students and pupils are two veeerry important differences to the German mind), and most girls in my seminars have… boosted their grades. So, being a Christian here… you REALLY stick out like a sore thumb. … a really sore thumb.
And the questions are all the same. “Can God make a stone he can’t lift?” “what about the starving children in Africa?” “what about homosexuals?” “I’m a good person. Am I going to hell? I’m not as bad as Stalin. Is his spot in hell hotter?”
sooner or later you feel that it all comes down to nit-picky pulling and plucking at every end in hopes to tear it apart and you ask yourself if decent and logical discussions are even possible. Apparently they are, as I have seen in the comments on this post =]] but it’s rare here.
Then again, that should be more incentive for me to read up on these things and educate myself, rather than “throwing in the towel”
@Starshine_Faerie - Here are a few of my responses to some of those standard questions (hope this is an encouragement):
With the stone question, my thought is that they are not asking a valid question because it is unclear what they are really asking about. If they are asking about how much God can lift, can they quantify it? Are they asking about God being able to limit Himelf? There are things the Bible says God can’t do. God cannot sin. Is this because He is not able to? No, it is because He chooses to limit Himself. Therefore, it is both true that He can and that He cannot because of His character. In regards to the moral questions, what defines what is moral? Where do those morals come from? Do morals come from within a person or are they based on some outside source? And what legitimizes that source? If morals come from within a person then what happens when two people have different values? Who is right? How can you be sure that your answer is correct? Sometimes the best way to get the self-appointed scholar to think is to ask the right questions.
As for the questions on hell, it gives an opprtunity to start by explaining what hell is. Hell is not a place ruled by Satan. It is a place created for him where he will be cast. There is no indication of “degrees” of hell in scripture. It is a place of isolation from God. So who goes there? Anyone who does not meet God’s standard. Well what is that? Those who have obeyed Him at every point. Basically, perfection. But nobody is perfect. Well, that’s why God paid the penalty for us. So then why doesn’t everyone just get a free pass? God is both perfectly loving and perfectly just. Were He to just force us to serve Him, He would not be either. Were He to let us all suffer in hell, He would not be perfectly loving. Were He to let everyone have a free pass no matter what, He would not be perfectly just. The only solution is that He gives us all a choice of whether to accept that His sacrifice is the only way or not. God loves us so much that He lets us choose.
Anyway, those are just a few thoughts. Sure, a person can nitpick all day. The best responses tend to be if you can get them to tell you what they would accept as proof or to get them to give a more plausible answer. A true thinker should be able to do more than nitpick things he doesn’t agree with. That is a fruitless endeavor unless one can present a more viable alternative.
The Bible says it, and the word is truth.
No, because I have common sense.
Actually — it was Noah, his wife, their 3 sons, their sons’ wives, and 2 animals of every kind.
And yes, I believe it happened.
I don’t think I would be able to live with myself if I believed something as silly as that.
I’ve heard there are “noah’s” ark stories from all around the world. Different versions that is. I don’t know. Maybe there was one guy named noah and his family and maybe there were a bunch of noahs and their families. Maybe they were all named noah too. It’s possible. I don’t know though. I wasnt there.
yes, i do believe that he did. And even though i don’t understand everything that God does in the OT because it seems so brutal, i know that it is all true. I do know that he promised us that he would never do it again.
Yup.
Yes.
Ridiculous, no. There has been no scientific evidence whatsoever about a great flood that encompassed the ENTIRE world, covered the tallest mountains, and killed everything (though at the rate of human destruction on the environment, we may be on a self-fulfilling prophecy of self-destruction). Not to underestimate Noah’s ability as a taxonomist, but I think he was incapable of building a boat to house all of the animal species in the entire planet. If you think that all animals evolved from Noah’s ship, evolution isn’t that fast. But I’m trying to reason the Bible way too literally. Also, the finders are evangelicals, so any research they have is completely biased.. although I do understand their fascination and 99.9% hope. I do however find the story of Noah’s Ark is a brilliant work otherwise.
The world was flooded in water once.. And there are other cultures out there, such as mine, who have stories very similar to that of Noah’s Ark. But anyway, since you’re talking about the bible, it sort of becomes a matter of belief. I’m not sure.. I think I’d say yes, but I’m not sure.
@Bushy_Tailed - Consistent strata patterns showing rapid but equal layering all throughout the world, inland post glacial-epoch fossilization of sea-dwelling whales, other marine fossilization near the tops of Himilayas and Alps dating to periods long after tectonic plate activity drove those ranges up out of the earth’s crust.
Just little, insignificant hints like that…
Yeah, I think I do.
I mean, it comes down to what pretty much every biblical argument comes down to: the inspiration was divine, but the penholders were men. It doesn’t say exactly how the stories, etc. were communicated to said penholders. It could quite likely have been through visions, which the men then proceeded to write as they understood it.
Part of faith is accepting things that might not seem to mesh with our modern human understanding. I’m sure there is a great deal that we are not even capable of understanding, even if we were to use 100% of our brains, which we don’t! But that sort of seems to me like one of the things that makes faith wonderful and worth pursuing.
@nickichica - I feel like perhaps you should read the chapter before you go asking questions that are answered in the Bible.
are we not aware that the bible is from the mouths of primitives? of course a bunch of rain would have seemed like the whole world flooded when, in fact, it was probably regional. remember when we thought the world was flat? well that was much much later. so imagine the crap we must have speculated then. the egyptians thought they would bring their chairs and cats and food and board games to the afterlife with them. these are the theories our ancestors postulated with the limited knowledge they may have had at the time. and then of course, passed on through generations, it was reformed and elaborated on and embellished. every bible story happened in much the same way. of course there are historical facts that can be archaeologically proven. but much of what is difficult to believe often did not occur at all. it was just what they thought was going on.
@TheSmokeMonster -”A world-wide “flood” of such a scale would have left a ******* swath of social, geological, natural, linguistic, historical, and biological evidence. Yet, we have none.”
There is a ton of evidence for a flood. Canyons(Dr. Ariel Roth discovered that at least 30% of rocks in the Grand Canyon are turbidites which are fossils formed in a matter of hours); Fossils(particularly polystrate or upright tree fossils); Clastic Dikes; Clay layers; Fish bones on the top of mountains(Whale bones have been found near Lake Ontario 440, feet above sea level and more in Vermont over 500 feet above sea level, and another near Quebec 600 feet above sea level, and these are just a few); Stories of a great flood in writings from almost all ancient civilizations: A lack of the expected geological pattern in history; Scientist’s “Problematica” or the word used to describe out of order fossils, or fossils that are mixed with others in an unexplainable way.
Some of these are also used by evolutionist to prove an old earth; however, when studied extensively, the evidence is in favor of a young earth and a worldwide flood.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - Older animals are bigger than modern animals? Never heard of that, you’d have to school me on that. Also I’m not an expert on fossils, but I’ve read a little bit about the topics, but what do they have to do my point that the vast modern animal life today descending from the limited number of pairs of animals of its “kind” being brought on the ark?
And what’s so special about Tierra del Fuego? I thought my above comment explained that.
@crystal_air - Show me the facts and don’t just spew things out of your mouth. I’d much rather look at a peer reviewed document.
Also, explain to me why that points to a global flood.
That your deity caused a global flood that wiped out existence? No.
Floods are big part of nature, so it’s hardly surprising that numerous cultures have stories about them. Furthermore, Pangaea might go a long way in explaining global consistencies in the fossil/geological record. And simply because experts can’t explain something (Though, chances are, they can and some people choose to ignore those explanations for convenience) doesn’t mean that one can ascribe it to one’s deity/deities.
My favorite thing is when people jump through elaborate hoops to prove the existence of their “all powerful” and “compassionate” imaginary friends. Your determination in the face of reason and the way you selectively read evidence to support your preconceived conclusions is admirable. Keep on truckin’, you beautiful bastards.
@TheSmokeMonster - I don’t know, I haven’t added up the years using the genealogies and all that. According to Dan’s post it was something around 4300BC if I remember right. I don’t know if that’s accurate or if the Bible gives enough information to calculate it though.
@Legendairy - Bible says that meat was not given to be used as food until after the flood.
Then the flood must have taken place 300,000,000 years ago. Animals have been eating each other since forever. And your explanation for having room in the ark is pure gobble-d-gook. Since the time of man and long before, the world has been teaming with animals.
No wonder atheists laugh out loud at the Christian hallucination of biology.
@Bushy_Tailed - Strata patterns form in rocks with ice ages, volcanoes, floods, etc. There is evidence world wide that a global flood occured, producing strata layers that are chronologically equal in many countries.
Whale skeletons shouldn’t be found inland, especially those that fossilized after the last ice age.
Scientists also claim that marine remains have been found of major mountain chains, remains that date after how ever many millenia it took for plate shifts to drive those mountains to the height they are now, indicating they wer underwater relatively recently.
As for proof, why believe what I tell you? Look up the evidence and make your own opinions.
@crystal_air - I have looked up evidence myself and much of what I’ve found doesn’t support a theory of a global flood. Especially if you are claiming that it occurred AFTER the last Ice Age.
I’m adding the Especially because it just seems to defy common sense.
“Some “facts” were wrong from the start. To begin with, the whale fossil
was not buried vertically. The angle was more like 40-50 degrees from
the horizonal. Most importantly, the skeleton lay parallel to the
bedding plane, meaning that the site was, more or less, once a level
sea floor. The discovery of hardground
‡
horizons within this
strata make it clear that for long periods of time this was, indeed,
the ocean floor and not a quick load of sediment from Noah’s flood. The
fossil was buried by the same kind of diatomites that accumulated in
deep bays and basins along the Pacific Coast during Miocene times.”
It goes on to explain why it was there, and current examples that are ending up in the same manner yada yada yada bunch of stuff I’m sure you don’t care about.
http://www.evolution-creationism.us/young_earth/polystrate_fossils.html
Seems legit too me. Oh and one whale fossil is singular not plural.
Jesus, first off strata layers that are chronologically equal in many countries, don’t automaticly point to global flooding. Apperently there are many different explanations for that. Global Flooding seeming the most ridiculous. Oh and the same site also offers another less biblical answer. Which means it actually makes sense….. >_> Logical sense.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - I would be curious to know what your evidence is for the 300,000,000 year figure as well as why you think that my response was “gobble-D-gook” (as you put it). Since you think there is a better explaination, I would be more than happy to hear your case. I would politely request that you refrain from being insulting. I have in no way insulted you, your beliefs, or your intelligence and anyone with substance behind their words surely has the ability to share this common courtesy.
@Legendairy - I just got through reading some info very similar to what you’re saying, except for the part about the dinosaurs, which I read that they existed served their purpose and then went extinct way before the creation of man, but I’m no expert so I don’t really know for sure, otherwise great info. And also as for arthropods and possibly other small mammals, reptiles, amphibians, they could have survived out side the ark by tons of floating debris worldwide and hibernating, and/or their eggs and larvae could have went dormant especially if they were laid underground in the ground, a reasonable speculation and insight.
@Legendairy - I was being hyperbolic with the 300,000,000 million year figure. Nevertheless, the fossil record is full of predators both land and sea and indicates that the earth was simply teaming with life with the exception of events like the Permian extinction. There is no way of knowing the number of species alive at the time of Noah. But if they could have all fit on an ark, it would mean that the world would have been relatively depopulated.
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@Legendairy - Oh I agree with you! These questions do provide opportunities to give important answers. Or, they *would* provide opportunity. Sadly, most of the time when people ask these questions, they do not want to hear the answers. In fact, the more sense the answers make, the more upset they *usually* become. I have to be careful here, I do not want to generalize or throw anyone into a big pot, but this is the reaction I usually receive.
@bluepillorredpill - the eggs and larvae lying dormant is something I had not considered at all! Very interesting!
I respect people’s beliefs, but I personally don’t think so. And although I agree, I think it’s a bit rude to call anyone “ignorant”, “silly”, or “stupid”. If atheists, like myself, would want people to keep religion to themselves, then we should hold back on the insults, too, yes? It just seems a little antagonizing to me.
I agree – I had trouble with Noah and the Arc as a child. Sure, they show lions and elephants and giraffes in all the picture, but what about the most miniscule animals? What about the ones that have been discovered recently, that were previously thought not to exist? Surely they would have records of those if they got two of them, wouldn’t they? And also, think about the sheer SIZE that boat had to be. Do you think that Middle East/Eurasia HAD that kind of lumber just waiting around for someone?
Just my pov.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - The fossil record is an interesting study to be sure. Were there a flood in Noah’s day that took place the way the Bible describes it, there are things we would expect to see. One of these would be that sedimentary layers would be formed permeated with fossils (which are formed when something is quickly buried and conditions are right to preserve the imprint). What is interesting is that we have so many fossils. Were there not a global flood, we should expect there to be far fewer fossils and in far fewer places. Fossilized jellyfish, plants, algea, and soft-bodied animals that would surely have decayed long before the sedimentary build-up could occur are found worldwide and even in mountain ranges across the face of the entire planet. In my opinion, this model of explaining the fossil record fits a lot better than to say it accumulated over millions of years because it doesn’t have the problem of dealing with issues such as the missing pre-Cambrian Period and the ‘missing links’/transitional forms that the naturalist model is riddled with (if you take the naturalist approach that is). My point is that there is a strong case to be made in favor of the acceptance of the account of Noah and a global flood and while believing it or not is a choice each person must decide for themselves, to dismiss it as groundless speculation is to be uninformed of the evidence. Sadly, there are those on both sides that simply will not even look at the evidence when it is presented.
@bluepillorredpill - Yeah, fascinating stuff! The thing with dinosaurs is that cultures worldwide have held stories about them as well. The difference is, they called them sea monsters and dragons. If you look at the pictures, they came in various shapes and sizes and look strikingly similar to dinosaurs. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to think that dinosaurs and people co-existed. Even in the middle-ages, there were stories of knights killing dragons. You have tales of them in Mezo-American cultures as well as throughout Asia and Europe. Even African tribes have told stories of beasts of similar description. It is amazing to me how quick modern ‘scientists’ are to assume that they were extinct long before man when you consider the wealth of evidence that appears to indicate differently. People are so quick to scoff at the idea based soley on their assumptions and preconcieved notions rather than to actually look at the information. It’s a real tragedy because there is so much we could learn if people would only be willing to challenge themselves once in a while.
@Legendairy - Interesting. I have heard before via discussion with friends that dinosaurs could have lived during mans creation and during Noah’s day. Could be possible. It’s always good to keep and open mind. But of course that speculation is just a tiny tip of the iceberg in relation to what the Bibles message is. But it is fun to speculate like this.
@Starshine_Faerie - Sadly, yes, the more sense you make, the more people you offend. Seems kind of ironic but it generaly is because so many make it a point of pride and so when you appear to have the better argument, they fly off the handle because you have unintentionally wounded their pride. Others become upset because they are so passionate about the implications of what they believe that they take it upon themself to win them over. (the latter is often the case with Christians whether the former is also true of them or not) The stance I take is that I present my case to the best of my ability but it is not my job to win the person over. I set out simply to demonstrate that there are legitimate grounds for what I believe and often challenge them to present a case for a model that works better based upon the evidence. If they present a case, then great! That usualy means that they have reasons to believe what they believe. I may respectfuly disagree with them, and I will generally offer a polite rebuttal or two just as food for thought, but the honest scholarly type will learn far more researching it on their own than hearing it from me anyway and I am confident enough in the evidence available to be a bit more relaxed than I used to be.
There’s probably some truth to the story, but do I believe it completely without question? No. The whole earth couldn’t have possible flooded, there could’ve been a man named Noah and his family that built and arc because he was warned by God. Two animals of every kind?…in the middle east? Yeah, sure. I mean there could’ve been a flood, there could’ve been an arc, there could’ve been a Noah, but the whole world didn’t die. The bible has stories that aren’t meant to be taken at face value, you pick apart the meanings and believe with all your heart in the MORAL of the story.
@Legendairy - Indeed, I often find the more they realize the truth in what I’m saying, the more they feel personally attacked and offended, and the need to justify themselves. Most often by, as you said, flying off the handle.
I’m not out on some mission to thwack people over the head with my bible screaming at them to REPENT! *THWACK* RE *THWACK* PENT *THWACKTHWACK*. There’s just no point. Jesus said that no one can come to the Father unless the Father pulls Him. So there is just absolutely nothing in my power. I am merely a tool in His hand. =]]
Yes.
Two seminarians confronted professor Barh. “He believes a serpent can talk. I don’t believe serpent can talk. What do you believe?”
“Whether a serpent can talk or not is unimportant. But you MUST listen to what he says.”
Read carefully with your spirit open. What do you see? One lesson: It didn’t start raining until Noah entered with all, and closed the door. THEN it started raining. That’s what faith is. I like to think he built the ark during a drought. Imagine the neighbors “Noah, you’re nuts!”
Finding a physical ark is idolatry. My God doesn’t’ like that. Like the ‘shroud’.
I pray each morning; “give me to love what you love teach me what you know.” That’s all! The rest in nonsense.
Geomoore 73 rue de Seine PARIS 6e
first off, how would Noah reproduce? Also, if it were true, that would be so long ago that animals would not have been the same. although evolution and the bible are kind of at opposite ends, it’s not biologically possible for animals to just repopulate with only one other mate. most of animals that are produced may not even survive. and you know, if it was true, an animal could have died or not have been able to reproduce, and then that species would be extinct. so, I have a lot of religious family, but I don’t believe this is logical or possible. I don’t believe they found Noah’s ark.
…I’ve studied enough science to know otherwise. I can separate my faith and the scientific evidence.
@quicksandbuddy -
I agree.
I completely believe in the flood and Noah and the Ark. The Bible isn’t the only book to discribe the flood. The Babylonians have a very simular story about a global flood (animals being put into a boat, a dove being sent out, and the boat landing in a mountain). Southwest Tanzania shares a story almost identical to the Babylonians. China has a story about a family being saved by a global flood by getting into a boat. The Chaldeans told a story, once again about a global flood occuring, and a male and female of every animal finding refuge in a giant ship. In India there’s a story of a fish warning a man to build a huge boat to survive a global flood and that the flood rested the boat in the mountains. The ancient Greeks believed zues was angry with them for their pride and sent a global flood, but allowed a man and woman to survive by floating in a wooden chest that rested in the mountains. The Aztec version is very simular to the Biblical version to the flood. Ojibwe Native Americans spoke about a man and woman and pairs of every animal who survived a global flood.
So, unless you think that every ancient culture was wrong in their universal tales of a great flood, in which case I guess putting your head in the sand is your best choice, I think it’s safe to say Noah and the Ark existed.
i’m catholic but honestly , i can`t really believe these stories. the oldest man according to the bible lived till the age of 769. you’re asking me to believe that when the life expectancy at that time was like … 40s – 50s , a miracle if you lived past the 60s .
Yes!