February 26, 2012

  • A Question for Atheists

    Richard Dawkins admitted recently that he can’t be sure that God does not exist.  He is generally considered the World’s most famous Atheist.  Here is the link:  Link

    So this question is for Atheists.

    Can you be sure that God does not exist?
                                                 
                                         

Comments (198)

  • i’ve heard of many atheists who actually convert back to christianity.  the thing is, i can’t be sure about anything.  i just have to go with what i think is logical, which is atheism. 

  • depends on your belief.  God is there if you believe.  Not exists if you don’t.  That’s it.

  • If you read his book “The God Delusion” he compares it to the celestial teapot (think of the guy here on xanga, that’s prob where he got it). He cannot be sure that God doesn’t exist any more than a celestial teapot, or Santi claus.  I’ve known many Atheist animals.  

  • God most likely does not exist.  I give it a 99%, though we did have a coneversation yesterday.  I wrote about it on my blog DID U SEE

  • I’m not an atheist. Go JC!

  • I think that everyone is on the fence. The idea that God exists and the idea that God does not exist are absolute concepts that are equally frightening and hard to grasp.

    EDIT: Replace God with Aliens. It brings another thing to mind: The idea of whether we are alone or not in the universe are both frightening.

  • A person either believes the Bible is fact or fiction.It’s up to them to believe what they think.If there is a God and He is in control like I think He is,then if He wants to change someones mind He will do something to change it.If not that person gets what he thinks he wants,he just misses out on what he didn’t realize he REALLY wanted.

  • Absolutely not. 

  • I no longer call myself an Atheist. If we are talking about the Judeo-Christian god. I am positive that one doesn’t exist.

  • @eatdrinkandbemaryy - I’m probably going to start an accidental argument here, but may I ask why you find the non-existance of God logical?
    And, depending on your reply, might I offer why I find God’s existance a logical conclusion?

    @MichellelyNg - A question for consideration. Does belief define reality, or simply our perception of it?

    @ShimmerBodyCream - *grins playfully* Someone’s being snarky a bit. ;)

  • Since the existence of God is a sure thing, and “atheist” means someone who does not believe in God, it is a sure thing that atheists believe in nonsense whether they are sure or not.

  • It’s funny how Atheists and Christians both have to go on faith about God’s existence. How can anyone prove that He is or isn’t? Either He is God and we, as simple humans, are incapable of proving empirical evidence of one so incredibly above us, or He does not exist and our prayers and hopes are lost in the ether. 

    I believe in Him and have been quietly affirmed too many times to doubt. Life is easier and happier.

  • @Rhindon - no one can find or prove “reality” =) 

  • @PeacefullyStorming - Scriptures say that God weaved the evidence of His existance into creation, itself, so that no one can reasonably conclude that God does not exist. Thus, it’s legitimately clear God does want us to see that He’s real. God will certainly do what is needed to convince us of His reality, but He also made us with the ability to choose to believe or not. It’s like that age-old example of the $20 bill around the corner. You can tell me it’s there, and it may very well BE there. Yet, I have the option to choose to believe you or not. You can do all you possibly can to convince me, even drag me around the corner. But if I’m determined to deny the reality of the $20 (like, deny that it’s real and claim it’s just a counterfeit), then nothing you do can make me think otherwise.

    So you’re right that God will offer evidence to His existance, but it ultimately comes down to whether or not we believe it. Truth will be true, always. That won’t change. Our beliefs can…

  • @MichellelyNg - That’s a curious statement. Because to know that reality can’t be known or proven REQUIRES knowledge about reality in order to prove it’s unknowable and unprovable. Such a notion debunks itself.

  • It’s called being an agnostic atheist. It’s where you’re not 100% positive that there is no higher power, but you do not believe there is one. Isn’t one of the main defenses of religion that you can’t prove it either way? That’s how he takes it into account — we can’t be positive either way, he just doesn’t believe the higher power exists. 

  • @Rhindon - it is philosophical topic for PHD.

  • @Rhindon - I don’t think there’s one atheist alive who doesn’t secretly question his belief that there is no God,but he would never let anyone think he believes it.You are right “Truth is true” no matter how humanity trys to distort it and twist it.

  • @MichellelyNg - Seems pretty standard to me. At one point, someone figured this out long before there was a college degree for it. It really doesn’t require a PhD to figure out. Just a mind that’s willing to work through the arguments carefully.

  • @thepsychoticraccoon - There is much more proof that there IS a God than there isn’t proof.If someone can simply look at all of creation and say it just happened all by itself with nothing giving it order,that person is some kind of stupid…yes,I said stupid.

  • @Rhindon - i’m not the type of person to try to convince people to believe similarly to me, but in MY OWN OPINION, it’s more logical that there is no god.  i’m a woman of science and theory.  i’m really skeptical, and i want to be able to see what i believe in.

  • @Rhindon - I got a degree in Philosophy and I am not here for any arguments.  Sorry I was in a wrong place and replied wrongly.  Please forgive me.

  • @eatdrinkandbemaryy - I don’t blame you. I wouldn’t mind one bit being able to see God or Jesus or Heaven with my own eyes. Having that sort of confirmation would be WONDERFUL!

    While it’s not an easy task to sort through all the claims of the Bible and the philosophical, cultural, and theological arguments therein, one thing is clear: There is still quite a bit of evidence we can study up on, even if it’s not directly emperical.

    After all, in both science and theology/philosophy, you have to study the evidence before you. Sometimes conclusions take a while to get to and require test after test. But in both cases, don’t we both seek Truth? Wouldn’t it seem logical that the order we find through scientific study was actually ordered by a mind capable of arranging it all? (Dominos and DNA don’t just fall into place, after all.)

    For the sake of argument, though, let’s say you found a scientific breakthrough. Regardless if anyone believed you, wouldn’t you want to convince others of the validity of your discovery? Certainly you’d want people to know the truth. Right?

  • @MichellelyNg - I certainly don’t mean to start a war. No. Just trying to spark a little logical discussion and trade ideas, if you will.
    I assure you, no offense was taken, either. :)

  • No. Atheism isn’t usually founded in “I’m 100% certain that God does not exist”, but in the belief that it seems more logical that he does not.  Science cannot work to disprove nor support something that is supernatural, because it only works with natural forces. Christianity, however, does work in “I’m 100% certain that God exists”, so atheism is solely a contrast to that.  We cannot be sure of anything that we do not have the ability to investigate, so rather than put our support blindly into a mechanism (God) that we have no substantial evidence for, we put it into scientifically supported mechanisms and constantly work to disprove these mechanisms in order to revise and better understand them.

  • @PeacefullyStorming - Where is your proof then?

    I’m sorry I took my education and my life experiences and decided that there was no invisible man in the sky who judges us after we die. I don’t have to justify my beliefs to anyone if they don’t bother anyone — and doesn’t your religion preach to not judge? Don’t call anyone stupid for thinking differently than you. If you cannot produce proof that God exists for sure (and that proof does not exist entirely in your head) then you have no more information than I do. I came to a different conclusion than you. That doesn’t make me, or anyone else who disagrees with you, stupid.

  • No, you can never be sure because the nature of the thing means there can’t be absolute proof. But there’s plenty of evidence against it and minimal to no evidence for it, so the likelihood of there being a) a god b)who gives a crap about us and c) interferes directly in people’s lives is infinitely tiny. It is quite infuriating, though, when the religious in this country have the power to legislate based on theology that not everyone shares. Why do people care if gays get married, for instance? If one believes this will send them to hell, then fine, but for those of us who don’t believe in hell, it makes no sense. Sigh.

    “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” - Marcus Aurelius

  • @Rhindon - of course i would like to share my discovery.  however, i believe in respecting everyone’s beliefs.  i don’t judge people on what they believe, but rather on how they act.  if they choose to disagree with me, then so be it.  

  • @Rhindon - Using the Bible to prove the existence of God is circular thinking since you first have to believe in God in order to believe in the Bible.

  • I’m positive that if I’m sure He exists then that makes Him real, but then someone else comes along and is positive that He isn’t real and then He goes “poof” and then He isn’t real anymore….. :(

    It’s a pretty cool Super power that’s completely unappreciated by most everyone….. 

  • @eatdrinkandbemaryy - Did you know that science is a result of the Christian idea of God? Science is a result of the Catholic Church training the best minds in Europe in math and physics for the 1000 years preceding the Renaissance.

    Science cannot prove the existence of God, but it provides tons of evidence and major physical phenomena that destroy the atheistic viewpoint. In other words, atheists erroneously use science as an excuse for their belief that God doesn’t exist.

  • Recently? He’s been saying that for 30 years.  Its in all of his books.  I guess when you hear what you want to hear, you can convince yourself of anything.

  • @thepsychoticraccoon - If I may…this is just an explanation for clarification, as this is an often-misunderstood portion of the Bible.
    It’s true that Jesus said not to judge…but that’s only part of what He said. Jesus cautioned the people not to judge others LEST they are ready to be judged by their own standards, too. In otherwords, it’s a caution on how we are to judge others.

    He followed up this point with the illustration of the log in our eye versus the speck in the other person’s eye. The point was that we are not to judge others while ignoring our own problems.

    If we are not to judge others at all, then our entire legal system would be pure lunacy and hypocritical (well, sadly, it’s that many times, too).

    The only judgment we are not allowed to do is to condemn people to Hell or confirm who will go to Heaven. While it’s clear that many people show signs of complete Godlessness, there may be other factors at in action. It may be that such a person may change their heart near the very end and accept Christ. And to the contrary, those who show evidence of the Christ-like life might be putting on a life-long farse. Only Jesus truly knows in such cases. That sort of judgment is reserved for Him alone.

    But when it comes to judging right versus wrong, the standard for morality is made clear in the Bible (and hopefully anyone who uses the Bible’s standards uses them with humility and the right heart). So when we analyze someone’s actions, that judgment ought to be based on a moral justification standard.

    I hope that clears up what the Bible says about judging others.

    @eatdrinkandbemaryy - I’m certainly not suggesting to disrespect people or to just rail on their beliefs. But rather to reason with them and examine the integrity of what they believe against what is actually real and true. This isn’t disrespecting a belief but rather helping others to see that what they believe may actually do them harm. You have to ask yourself what is more important: The truth, or what we simply think is true. Hopefully what we believe in is the truth, itself. Wouldn’t that seem more worthy a goal than to just let people believe whatever they want?

  • I think the question is just as valid for Christians, or those who at least believe in God. a god, or many gods. Often times it is those who believe that often neglect to ask themselves this very question.

  • @sometimestheycomebackanyway - Not exactly. Lee Stroble and others started out to complete debunk the Bible. They didn’t believe in the claims of the Bible, much less in God. However, through studying the evidence of the Bible, they came to find that what the Bible claimed – the logic behind the arguments, no less - were incredibly solid. Their beliefs were refined the more they studied what the Bible said. Thus, they came to believe in the Bible only after they believed against it.

  • @jmallory - I do think that’s a very fair question to ask of Christians, too. After all, Paul (of the New Testament) did say that we ought to have a thought-out reason for our faith. Not blind faith, but a faith based on reason and truth.

  • @Rhindon - The Bible is the story of God’s plan of salvation for mankind. That makes it a book of faith. Faith, by definition, is the belief in that which cannot be proven.

    Logically then, the Bible cannot be used to prove the existence of God.

  • @Rhindon - @jmallory - Christianity is a religion. That makes it a matter of faith. Faith cannot be proven.

    Atheism cannot be proven, so like Christianity it is a matter of faith.

    The existence of God is proven through reason, not faith.

  • I consider myself agnostic in that I can’t be sure that God exists the same way that I can’t be sure unicorns exist. It’s not that I don’t believe there are laws governing the universe in a precise and geometric way, as physics has already proven that, but rather that it’s less plausible that a supreme being, particularly an anthropomorphic one, created the universe. We live in a finite universe, so of course, it had to have a beginning, and it is very possible that it has an end. However, the existence of God as religion would like to define it is, again, not very probable, and furthermore, very human-centric. We are not the top of the ladder as we would like to believe, we are not the cusp of creation; we are nature, just as everything else, we are just “nature looking in, at once mundane and sublime.”

    TL;DR: agnostic in terms of scientific literacy, atheist in terms of “religious” myth.

  • @sometimestheycomebackanyway - You are both correct, and incorrect. Ultimately, it depends on which definition of aith you are using, for “faith” has several different definitions attached to it. The faith of the Bible is the “evidence of things not seen”. Just as you don’t see the man walking through the sand earlier, you have the evidence of his footprints. While yo cannot see the man, his footproots are conclusively there. LOGICALLY, the footprints didn’t just pop…er, in to the sand. Someone, somehow, left their footprints there. Even if it was someone with a giant stamp and pounded the footprint impressions into the sand, someone still had to do it.

    That’s the sort of faith the Bible speaks of.

    Even though we can’t prove God via pure, humanistic science, the evidence is still conclusively there. We might never find the man who left the footprints, but the evidence is still conclusively there.

    And while you’re very much correct about the Bible also being the story of God’s plan for our salvation, that doesn’t mean that nothing in the Bible is pure, blind faith. That doesn’t make nothing in the Bible unprovable.

    Thus, the existance of God is proven through faith AND reason. In this case, they are one and the same.

  • im not sure he doesnt exist.. i mean i dont care or not whether it can be proven true…i just don’t believe in god. the same way christian people think there is a god even though they dont have any way to prove their point, either (even if they think they do)

    basically i wont believe in god no matter what. if religious people ca n be stubborn and not make any logical sense, i cant either!

  • @thepsychoticraccoon - I’ll change my wording then.t’s not very smart to SEE all of creation right in front of you and think there was not at least SOME sort of creator.I guess when I use the word stupid when talking about people who don’t believe there is a God it’s more I’m saying they are just blind.But whatever,it wasn’t a judgement at all,just an observation.It is quite convenient though to use the judgement card.Funny also,read your tone you had with me,sounds pretty judgemental.Oh well!

  • May I respond to your question with an ancient one?

    “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” 
    ― Epicurus

    It is simply up to each individual what they believe to be truth.

  • I’m an agnostic,myself.

    That reminds me – did I tell you about the agnostic, dyslexic insomniac? The one that sat up all night wondering if there really was a dog?Come on, that was funny! 

  • @Rhindon - Curtis is referring to deductive logic, not inductive logic. 

  • I’m an agnostic I think. Not the same right? 

  • As little as we know about the universe and where it came from, it would be foolish and arrogant to claim to be certain that God either does or does not exist. However, if one begins with the assumption that God does exist, it is equally foolish and arrogant for one to begin speculating on the nature of said God, and exponentially more so for one to go as far as to attribute one’s own perspective and values to said God. (A practice known as “religion”.)

    So my stance is not so much that I’m certain God does not exist, as that I am certain religious concepts of God are nonsense.

  • @carolinavenger - GREAT quote!  

  • A god who let us prove his existence would be an idol.
    -Dietrich Bonhoeffer

    She better exist. She has a lot to answer for and I don’t intend to spend eternity feeding worms with no consciousness but would rather spend it getting the story behind the stories of history.  My inquiring mind NEEDS to know!

  • im only sure of whats happening now

  • @Rhindon - footprints didnt pop from nowhere, but the sand planet and universe seem to, if there was ever a point when nothing existed. god or science cant explain somethin from nothing. its all in our minds

  • Pffffft. Christopher Hitchens was the world’s most famous atheist.

  • There is no such thing as 100% proof for anything. One can only look at the evidence and try and determine the most likely reality. Any claims we have for the reason of our existence or creation are merely assumptions – be it a god or otherwise. I always find it interesting why people seem so fixed on the idea that there has to be some kind of sentient bearded man that cares about us and created us all. What’s to say that the cause behind this all is sentient, or caring in the slightest. Right now it’s beyond our comprehension, and it may very likely remain a mystery to us forever.

  • the question begs another question:  can theists be sure that God does exist?  better said, do you believe it, or do you think it?  in a court of law, one depends on evidence that lends to thinking something is or is not true, because believing something is not good enough to lay a judgment upon another person. 

    personally, I think a god-like being might exist.  but I don’t think it/they are exclusive to anyone along religious, or any other, lines.

    the word might keeps me from laying any kind of judgment upon anyone, as well.

    I don’t label myself anything.  labels keep a person from learning.

  • Atheists popularly say this. 

  • It’s impossible to know for sure if God is real or not. That’s why I am Agnostic.

  • Any atheist that I have ever spoken too has said that they are absolutely sure that there is not God in any form. In fact, they have also said that for them  to say that there is the possibility a god exists would make them an agnostic. (not my words, theirs)

  • If god (however you perceive him/her/it) told you to kill your child –
    would you do it? If your answer is no, in my booklet you’re an atheist.
    There is no doubt in your mind. Love and morality are more important to
    you then your faith. If your answer is yes, please reconsider. – Penn
    Jillette

  • There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence
    for it, but you can’t prove that there aren’t any, so shouldn’t we be
    agnostic with respect to fairies?

  • @Rhindon - There is no such thing as being correct and incorrect in the realm of rationality and truth. What I said here is either true or false. What you say in these comments is either true or false.

    I have shown you why your comments are false: because you base your understanding of the existence of God on the Bible which is a book of faith, it is circular reasoning to use the Bible as a logical proof or source of evidence of God’s existence.

  • @Kristenmomof3 - No. And that is because fairies are not real. There is no way to reason out the existence of fairies. However, the existence of God can be reasoned out.  His existence is self-evident.

    Self evident truth is not in the same category as your imaginary friends.

  • @Kristenmomof3 - Since all men are created equal, no man has the authority to determine what is moral for other men. Therefore the source of morality, the knowledge of good and evil, must be God. ~Sometimestheycomebackanyway

  • @Kraatakans - There is no such thing as 100% proof for anything.

    How can you say such a thing without being able to prove it?

    If you took high school geometry, you studied lots of 100% proofs.

  • The physics of our universe does not require that there be a creator. A god’s existence would be extraneous to what is necessary for life in this universe. Science typically tries to find answers to questions using the simplest explanation, lex parsimoniae. 

    That doesn’t mean one doesn’t exist! 
    However, I highly doubt he’s the same god that Christians believe in (or the god of any one certain religion). That’s just my belief though.As an atheist that used to be a Christian, even if I did believe that a god existed, there is no way I would revert back to Christianity.  

    Also, I don’t pester Christians and try to “turn” them atheist or agnostic, so I expect them to extend me the same courtesy. 

  • @tru_indo - The existence of God does indeed explain “something from nothing.” Something from nothing is called “creation”. Another name for God, is Creator.

  • @AbnormalButSane - The physical laws of the universe do indeed require a creator. Science teaches that there was a first cause. And Stephen Hawkings himself admits that all the miriad of parameters necessary for human beings and all of life to come into existence had to be so finally tuned as to be inexplicable.

    The science and the math indicate the existence of God since believing that everything came about by random chance is totally absurd and irrational.

  • @sometimestheycomebackanyway - Actually, Stephen Hawking explains in his book The Grand Design that there is no need for a divine creator. 

    Also, I’m not arguing beliefs with you. That is truly absurd and irrational.  I was simply answering the blogger’s question, not looking to debate religious beliefs. 

  • hehe I’m god in my world, so it exists, yes.

    What I kinda wonder is if psychologists believe god exists. The fact that you have to believe, for it to exist, says a lot. You don’t doubt that you breathe, do you?

    It’s weird though. I can’t figure out the need for a god, or gods. Why does anyone need one? My guess is it’s a psychological need or something, or a tradition passed on over time

  • @AbnormalButSane - Look at the title of the book you just mentioned. It has the word “design” in it. Design means that a designer exists. It amazes me that Hawkings is so irrational on the subject of God that he doesn’t even understand the significance of the words he uses.

    He also remarks on the how exquisitely engineered the universe is all the while remaining totally oblivious to the fact that if something was “engineered” it needs an engineer.

    Engineering and design do not and cannot happen by themselves. They are the result of motivated, directed and purposeful intelligence.

    Btw, I there is nothing in my comments to you that has anything whatsoever to do with religion. My claim is that your argument is not based on science at all.

  • “So this question is for Atheists.”

    Maybe it’s the nature of Theo’s blog, but why can’t we Christians let the people for whom this post was intended have their say. Ever think about the fact that Sunday night there may be a statement along the lines of, “So this question is for Christians.”

    Just saying.

  • That’s because you can’t prove a negative. Such as, I can’t prove that Santa isn’t real, but it’s pretty safe to assume he isn’t. 

  • @sometimestheycomebackanyway You have a poor understanding of maths it seems. At a higher level maths becomes increasingly theoretical to the extent where those “100% proofs” only make sense in context.  When you move onto concepts which start using imaginary components to “prove” something real then you can actually begin to understand this, I’m interested to know quite at what level you have studied maths at seeing as you see fit to make assumptions like that.

    “The science and the math indicate the existence of God since believing that everything came about by random chance is totally absurd and irrational.”

    It doesn’t. All the evidence points to the chance of god existing and being the cause for everything being extremely unlikely. However that’s not to say there isn’t a reason. Care to tell me why exactly the existence of god is necessary for creation andnot some other factor that is beyond our comprehension? Why does it HAVE to be god and not something else? Also surely by your logic god must have come from somewhere, like you’ve said nothing can just exist by random chance. And don’t give me the whole “he was always there” drill, wouldn’t that mean that it would be perfectly feasible for the universe to have always existed in some way, shape or form?

    Also have you heard the analogy “leave 1000 monkeys in a room banging on typewriters for an infinitely long time and they’ll eventually write the complete works of shakespeare?” The same applies for the universe. Once the whole thing kicked off after the big bang there is no reason for creative intervention. 

    Well at least science is frank enough to admit when it doesn’t know something, same can’t be said for creationists. 

  • Can you be sure there’s not an elephant outside your window right now?

  • You know, peeping elephants are more than a nuissance. They are a bane to society!
    Someone should DO something about the peeping elephants!

    Are you sure there’s not an elephant outside your window?

  • No more than Christians can be sure that god exists.  God may exist. I just don’t believe god exists in the same way Judeo-Christians think.  Maybe some kind of cosmic energy.  

  • I can be certain that there is no proof and that the burden of proof lies with the person who is making the claim. Generally, that claim is made by Christians. Atheists respond to it and then are told that they must prove something. None of it can be proven. You must go on your own journey, figure out what it is you believe based upon evidence, and then come to your own conclusions. Everyone’s so concerned with proving what can’t currently be proven. Rather, look at the lack of evidence of a god. There’s no evidence to examine. There are a number of common arguments that people give for the existence of a god, but research them, and you’ll find that ultimately none of them get you anywhere as far as proof goes. It’s all opinion, subjective experience, and delusion to me. But, I understand that it helps a lot of people get through life. Whatever works for people, go for it. As long as you’re not trying to impose your beliefs upon me and my right to live my life the way that I see fit, I respect you.

  • Can we be sure that he does?

  • No, I’m an athiest and I think that a higher power be it a god or multiple gods could exist, however every religion out there is fucking stupid and completely wrong.

  • I can’t be sure that God doesn’t exist, and I can’t be sure that He does. No one can. That’s why they call it Faith in the first place. Some of us, like me, aren’t graced with a lot of it. Others are. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNNxeovdN5U

  • Whether we are sure or not…ultimately truth will be victorious and therfore we should never stop to question and challenge our convictions.

  • Most so-called atheists are really agnostics, as are more than a few professed “people of Faith”.

  • You want the standard atheist or the orthodox atheist? Most likely you would not be interested in any of them unless you were debating a factoid.

    Can G-d do anything? maybe since you believe in G-d you probably think G-d can convert an atheist into a believer. Keep trying but seriously what the heck for?

  • @eatdrinkandbemaryy - Can you see what an atom is?  It’s the essence of God holding you together!  Actually what matters is He loves you as a Father does a daughter, but he wants you to come as you are and freely accept the free gift of salvation.  That’s all that really matters.  Everything else is meaningless between you and him unless you want to develop the relationship.  He sits and waits for you.  The beauty is it’s ultimately up to you.  He simply waits like any good Father waiting for his daughter to finally walk on her own.  God Bless You.

  • Definitely can not be sure. That’s the point. Just because you can’t prove something doesn’t exist, doesn’t mean you can prove it exists either. Unfortunately, my logic (which if there is a god, he gave it to me) doesn’t allow me to just accept things because others tell me it is so.

    I do believe there is something out there, I just don’t believe it’s what everyone thinks there is. 

  • Short answer: no.

    Long answer: Of course not. We can be certain of virtually nothing. I think most people recognize that, but for some reason many still find it somehow strange or surprising when a prominent figure like Dawkins acknowledges the obvious truth that we cannot be certain of the non-existence of God. We also cannot be certain of the non-existence of leprechauns, the non-existence of the celestial teacup, the existence of the external world, etc etc. Nonetheless, these are all claims that are overwhelmingly supported by reason and evidence, and so it is reasonable to believe them.

  • @Kevin_is_a_pirate - You may be right, but God doesn’t care about religion, He cares about you and only wants you as his child and a relationship with you.  It’s a free gift and not works.  No other God in History asks that.

  • @RighteousBruin - I don’t believe there is a god. Also, it cannot be proven that there is/is not a god. So, the agnostic shit is bs. If you play that card, everyone in the world can’t help but be agnostic. I’m an atheist. I’m not sure why people are so bent on saying this type of thing.

  • @thepsychoticraccoon - well said!!

  • I’m not an atheist, so just sayin’ hi!

  • God exists.  Jesus Christ exists.  The Holy Spirit exists.  I have seen His works and it is amazing to me that people can look at their own hands and still walk away from God.  There is nothing so simple as looking out at His creation and seeing the power of God.  He is there.  He is love. He is waiting for you.

  • @Paul_Partisan - that’s my opinion as well.  i’m very open to the concept of a deity, but i definitely do not believe that Christianity nailed it.  

  • my personal label for myself is an apatheist.  i think that even the question of whether any gods exist is irrelevant, since we’ll never know for sure until we die.  

  • @joyouswind - Amen.

  • I would rather look at it scientifically and with evidence, than ‘get my hopes up’ and declare there is a man above and the option of an afterlife is certain. There are some spiritual points in my introspective thinking that I only consider realistically. And definitely, if there were a creator, it would not be this widely worshiped ’God’ that everyone is reading about in their dear bibles. Because that is unrealistic and unreliable information.

  • I consider myself an agnostic atheist. I don’t believe in a higher power, but I don’t have absolute knowledge that there is no higher power and I don’t think it’s even possible to have that knowledge. By that logic, it’s also impossible to prove that unicorns and fairies don’t exist, but it’s still an important distinction to me. Almost every atheist I’ve ever talked to follows a similar train of thought; many just stick to the label “atheist” for simplicity’s sake.

  • I think if there were a god and he wanted people to know him, he’d have better PR.

  • There have been a few rare times where I’d like to just live my own way again and forget that there is a God (although I know that everything that I was doing before I was saved was fruitless and making me miserable). But, I have been proven His existence over and over again and have encountered Him so tangibly that there isn’t any way I could doubt His existence, even if I wanted to. He is very real. And Him revealing Himself to me has been both the best and the hardest thing to happen to my life. 

  • Wrong question.  You should first ask the question:  How does one prove that anything does not exist?  How does one prove that unicorns do not exist?  Or gremilins?  Or ghosts?  or whatever.  The domain of logic does not allow this kind of argument to be made.

  • Almost no atheists describe themselves as being absolutely certain there is no God. 
    That’s why atheism cannot be called a faith.
    For most there is no “holding of a belief,” there is dealing with the things that appear the most reasonable to believe given the circumstances.

  • “Can you be sure that God does not exist?”

    Most atheists, including me, say “no”.

  • No…He can not and religious people can not prove that God does existence. Faith is Hope and God is spirit. Hope is not an absolute and The Spiritual world can not be measured by science. You have to make a choice. And none of us will know that we made the correct while we are alive. It will not be until we are dead that all of our questions are answered and by then it is to late to tell anybody. I chose to be a believer in God for reasons that I will not go into here. But I can’t prove God’s existence to anyone….I hope I am right….Faith is Hope.

  • Well — go figure that so called Christians would lie about Richard Dawkins, take something out of context, and make it appear that he was doubting his own convictions about religion. But then, that is the way so called Christians operate. This has been going on for thousands of years - actually a little over two thousand years, except in today’s secularist society, so called Christians can longer KILL people because of their lack of belief in magic and mysticism. They go to so called “church” on Sundays — symbolically eat the flesh and drink the blood of a Jewish ZOMBIE  — and then wonder how ANYONE could not “see the light”!! 

    Instead of making uninformed comments on this website – or parroting what they learned in Sunday school brainwashing sessions designed to form early beliefs in ridiculous and bloody mystical sects – perhaps you should use your google search capabilities to find out WHERE the name Jesus came from (Hesus Kristas) and who where the first people to relate stories about god like beings turning water in to wine, being born of a virgin mother, healing the blind with spittle and most of the magical attributes attributed to Hesus Kristas. Here is a hint — these stories were PLAGIARIZED from pagan religions and Greek Mythology thousands of years before “jesus” was a twinkle in the eye of Joseph. So what so called “christians” are really demonstrating that in spite of all of the technology and science that makes their lives livable  - they are STILL no smarter than the Stone Age pagans of the BC era!!

  • First, I must point out that even if atheists are not sure, that does not make theists right.

    Next, I’d like to show you this article: http://lesswrong.com/lw/mm/the_fallacy_of_gray/

    No, we’re not sure, but we’re very very close to sure. Things are not black and white, but all grays aren’t the same.

    For example, to me, The Christian God exists is less likely than Very advanced aliens are simulating us, which is less likely than There’s a teacup floating in the Asteroid Belt, which is less likely than I will get exactly 80 on this assignment, which is less likely than I will graduate, which is less likely than Eating only chicken nuggets for 15 years will make people unhealthy, which is less likely than something like Gravity is real. Somewhere in that line goes the statement There’s alien life in the universe, but I don’t know where.

    What I do know is that it’s very very unfair to say I will graduate should be thought of the same way as The Asteroid Belt has a teacup in it just because they are both uncertain. One is quite likely, and the other is near-impossible.

    So no, I’m not entirely sure, but that doesn’t mean anyone can point to atheists and say, well they’re not actually SURE of anything. I’m very close to sure. God is unlikely enough that I treat it the same way as hypothetical teacups in space. Dawkins says he’s not completely sure; it’s a simple statement of fact, not a weakness or a confession or anything like that. I’m not going to pretend to be sure at the cost of accuracy.

    For another example, there’s a one-in-a-million chance that a person will win the lottery. That chance is near-zero. But if the person says, “well it’s uncertain, and therefore I have faith that I’ll win”, we can all tell that (s)he will probably be very disappointed.

    That’s exactly what’s happening here. You say to me, is there a God? And I say, there’s a one-in-several-billion chance (that’s not my real estimate, but it’s close enough). Then you triumphantly say, ah-ha! There’s a chance! You don’t know after all!

    But that’s not how it works. The probability is close enough to zero that you could hardly tell them apart if I pointed them out on a number line. And the probabilities determine how I behave! The difference between a 1% chance and a 90% chance results in going to church, raising children religious, observing religious holidays, and praying. Even though they are both uncertainties, the result is definitely not all the same.

  • Maybe God died.

  • It’s okay… “God’s” really an alien anyway.

  • @PatentMagician - An Agnostic refers to somebody who doesn’t have certain knowledge about the existence of a deity, and doesn’t believe one way or the either about the existence of a deity.  An atheist is somebody who doesn’t believe a deity exists.  However, there are also agnostic atheists, such as myself, that don’t claim to have certain knowledge about the existence of a deity, but don’t believe a deity exists.  To clarify that, think of the word agnostic being a statement about facts, and the word atheist referring to a belief drawn from the facts.  There are also agnostic theists as well.

  • Life has a way of doing that.  Encroaching age, friends passing on…our ‘ironclad convictions’ are more subject to a variety of factors than we sometimes care to admit

  • I am an agnostic atheist, which should adequately answer this question.  

  • Nobody can be sure either way.  There is no proof for or against the existence of God so we all just have to wait to die to find out haha.

  • Can you be sure that Zeus doesn’t exist?

    It’s pretty much the same question. I don’t know for sure God doesn’t exist, no. But I’ve never seen any evidence to prove that God exists, and I’ve been lots of evidence that science can explain most things that people like to credit God with. If God does exist, fuck, but he probably doesn’t so I’m not going to worry about it!

  • This question is framed wrong, conversely you can ask “If your Pastor one day tells you he’s not sure if God exist” but anyways, this is good way to keep xanga alive and your hit count up lol 

  • Of course you can’t prove that God does not exist.  It’s impossible.  You also can’t prove that unicorns don’t exist, angels don’t exist, the flying spaghetti monster doesn’t exist.  The real problem with deity-worshiping religions is that there’s no scientific evidence to prove their gods do exist.  And if there’s no evidence for it, why put your faith in it?  

    “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”  –Carl Sagan

  • @Pastor_Rock - You can’t see an atom, but you can measure them and detect their existence, and we have utilized this for many practical applications.  Can you make a God bomb?  Or run on God energy?

  • @Rhindon - And what makes you think you know the truth?

  • Which god are we talking about here?

    Horus? Zeus? Krishna? Jupiter? Amateratsu? Baldr? Loki? Veles? Jah? Q’uq’umatz? Queztacoatl? Ataguchu? Indra? Cernunnos? Or the Judeo-Christian god?

    How can you be sure Amateratsu doesn’t exist?

    BELIEVE IN MOTHER AMATERATSU!

  • @Kraatakans - I’m not referring to higher maths. I’m referring to probability like all other scientists do when they discuss this topic.

    The mathematical odds of life evolving at random equal impossible. Cosmologists like Hawkings understand that quite well.

    The odds of a group of chimps typing “To be or not to be,” is 1 in a billion if the chimps are given from the start of the universe until now (14 billion years) and they make 1 billion attempts each second on a 100 key keyboard.

    Think about the odds of the random creation of a DNA molecule or even a single cillium on a paramecium.

    Anyone who knows their maths, knows impossible when they see it.

  • Nothing like finite minds trying to grasp and discuss Something infinite! It’s funny hearing wise people and those who think they are wise try to explain God.It cracks me up and makes me sad at the same time.

  • “Truth is True”? That’s just absurd. Truth is relative. “Truth is a metaphor”- Nietzsche. There are no such things as facts, only interpretations. There is no such thing as ‘Truth.’

  • Sure…

  • @coolmonkey - Ooooo, A Troll!  Ever hear of Sodom and Gomorrah?  I’d call that a God Bomb.  And of course there is God Energy.  We call it the Holy Spirit. You call it the atom.   And to pick back, what is truth?  Is it your truth or mine?  I chose The Truth that is more and more proven by historical finds.  Have you looked into it?  Can you truly disprove it given the evidence on a scholarly level?  Are you just trolling?  Is this going to get a true response?

  • @strawberrydevil - John 14:6 “I am the way, the truth and the light” Jesus   Oh, and,”No one comes to the father except by me.”  same verse… 

  • @strawberrydevil - “I made Nietzsche” – God

  • @TheSchizoidMan - Thanks for being real!  It’s refreshing here.

  • @desiredperfection3 - The proof for Christianity is The Bible.  There is historical evidence supporting it.  Some will still not believe.  What if all you had to do was believe and you could have eternal existence after death?  What if you saw all of the miracles I have seen that happened the same way the miracles in The Bible happened?  Would you be willing to listen?

  • But of course I believe.  Guess I don’t really count.

  • @Pastor_Rock - ”The proof for Christianity is The Bible. There is historical evidence supporting it.” Yes, there is historical evidence supporting it. There is also historical evidence supporting its changes over time at the hands of political leaders (such as Henry the 8th). Historically, the Bible has been used as a tool. Like any tool, it has been altered and reformed into a shape more pleasing to the user. A book claiming that events happened, and finding tangible evidence that it actually occurred… That is just history. Not evidence of a ‘God.’ “

  • @eatdrinkandbemaryy - I’ve never heard that. I only hear that once you turn to reason and logic, it’s very difficult to go back to the way things were. That makes a lot more sense to me.

  • An atheist can’t prove God doesn’t exist anymore than a believer could prove that God does exist.

    It’s one of those things you either believe or you don’t but don’t try to convince somebody it’s real or not because you can’t provide tangible proof either way.

  • I consider myself agnostic and Im really not sure what I believe in. I base what I think is real or not on what I see during my life. I think Im more of a science person so if you can prove it, I believe it. I have a hard time with faith because its exactly that, something you just feel. Both of my parents believe in 2 different things. My dads a christian and my mom believes in reincarnation, so naturally I have no idea how anyone can put all their faith in one religion when there are soo many! Im just fine having my faith hanging on a fence. I dont need religion to make me a good person. lol.

  • @Pastor_Rock - There is no evidence that those events ever happened.  And even if they did, who is to say it wasn’t an exaggeration or some natural disaster that they couldn’t explain?  And why, for thousands of years, have we not seen another God Bomb?

    The Bible is written by men and is not backed up by much other literature.  It is a flawed source if you rely solely on it.

  • We reside in God and God resides within us.  When human beings carry out acts of kindness towards others, that’s the inner God in them at work.  When ignorance and immoral behavior is shed and the inner light of people is allowed to shine upon others, that’s God.  God does exist within us, through us, and around us.  We just have trouble seeing it because we focus too much on the negativity caused by ignorance.  

  • @strawberrydevil -  Yes, The Word has been used for man’s gain, but modern translations have the original Greek translations to stand on as well as many scroll discoveries in recent years that validate the text.  The main thing is many like yourself would rather stand on that hearsay than on the actual text and how it relates to you and your salvation.  Their misuse is irrelevant.

  • I am not sure myself, I am a very religious yet I am not 100 percent sure. God is this amazing being but I think no one is really sure of someone that we can never see is real?

  • I’m sure God is relieved.

  • @coolmonkey - How else do you explain a whole city that God wiped off of the Map except for other scrolls that referenced the place and then they didn’t?  You can believe the evidence of other historical texts or not. It will not effect me if you say you just don’t believe.

    Have you not heard that Jesus paid it ALL?  He became the new covenant between God and man.  God is giving you a second chance.  You are free to believe the evidence or search for the truth.  If you decide to do neither, well I guess you have made your decision.  Funny thing, every young atheist I have challenged to do this has come back an older wiser Christian.  I’m an old fart now, but I revel in seeing them take up that cross not because of me, but because of their own doubt in that place everyone must go when they are not around others making stuff up about Historical facts or commenting on an anonymous board.  

    Romans 3:23
    Romans 6:23
    Romans 5:8
    Romans 10:9-10
    Ephesians 2:8 and 9
    John 3:16

  • @mralexx - Being religious my Brother will not guarantee your salvation.   The seeing is in reading his miracles in his text.  Believe in it alone and you will see God.  Many here will tell you it is not real, but you know in your heart it is.  Get YouVersion for your phone and start a reading plan.  Even Priest can have an agenda.  Believe in The Great I Am alone!  God Bless you!

  • It’s a waste of time to contemplate the existence or non-existence of God.
    You will never be able to prove it, so what’s the point of searching endlessly?
    If you believe, you believe and if you don’t, you don’t.
    Who cares?
    It’s up to the individual.

    A theory I like is that the universe has always existed and always will exist.  Because humans are accustomed to thinking in beginnings and ends, we cannot comprehend this, so we search for a creator.
    Honestly, I don’t even know what I, personally, believe, for I find it pointless to think about it.
    But everyone is different, and I will never tell anyone what they should or should not believe in.
    I think the world would be a lot nicer if we all just stopped trying to press our own opinions upon everyone and let everyone believe what they want to.

    We all create our own realities; we might as well accept everyone’s realities too.

  • @Pastor_Rock - There has been no concrete evidence the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah ever even existed in the first place.  And the Bible does not count as a credible source, so quoting from it does no more good than quoting Harry Potter makes wizards real.

  • @lonosphere - Ever hear of a Supernova?  Your assumption is flawed by science.  Worlds begin and end every second in space.  What happens if it is our time?  The clock is ticking my friend.  Of course we cannot prove God’s existence.  That is the basis of faith.  All Christians and Jews have is The Torah and The Bible as a glimpse of God. Isn’t it better to live a life based on loving others so much that you want them to also have the chance for eternal existence after your frail body ceases working?  Worse case, you harm no one, best case, you give them the gift of salvation through Christ and they carry on what you started hopefully.  I pray you get to examine what you believe and find consistency there.  And of course I pray you discover the free gift of salvation.  Please forgive me for mentioning this, but I am compelled by my beliefs to share them before I can no longer.  God Bless you!

  • @coolmonkey - Josephus commented on the 5 cities in the Dead Sea area where they have found un-natural formations of Brimstone and Sulfur as well as square footings which I am sure you will acknowledge do not occur in nature.  Of course you can doubt all you want.  nevermind the evidence.

    Oh and the text was just for others…I knew you would probably not accept them anyways.  Atheist are always smarter than us old guys.

  • Thanks Dan!…

  • @Pastor_Rock - You’re right, sulfur and brimstone aren’t naturally occuring.  They are, however, present in asteroids which have bombarded our planet since the beginning of time.  Hmmm…

  • I’m not an atheist, but I feel that before proving if anything exists or doesn’t exist, we need to prove reality exists…and it’s hard to prove reality exists. Everything I feel, my ties with this world, sometimes none of it feels real. Some people say there is no truth, just existence.

  • Why is this even a topic for debate?? No one can prove or disprove if god is real or not lol. I think a better post would have been suited..instead of this. All it’s going to do is incite arguments, not debates..because no one is ever going to know if god exists or not.

  • @coolmonkey - yeah, all in one place with pinpoint accuracy in the shape of a square city.  LOL!  Never mind logic.

  • @Pastor_Rock - If there was a city there, it would have been vaporized by an asteroid.  It wouldn’t even have to be a direct hit to do the job.

  • And thus you prove my existence of a God who promised he would destroy them…and did it with pinpoint accuracy.  But just go ahead and believe what you want.  I’m sure there is a wall somewhere you can argue your point with young man.

  • @Pastor_Rock - Thank you, Pastor Rock, but I think you can love others without preaching to them about what they should or should not believe in.  You do not know if an afterlife even exists.  You do not know if any higher being exists.  None of us do.  And what about the people who are born in cultures where they do not believe in a supreme being?  Do you think that means they are destined to some sort of “Hell”?

    I’m sorry, but if there is a supposed “God,” I do not think that he would put one of his beloved children in that situation.

    Also, I never said that I believed we can not understand the concept of everything always have existed and always existing, I said I liked that idea.  I would never claim to know anything, or make any assumptions regarding ideas that I will never be able to understand with my tiny human brain.
    I read once that everything in the world goes through the cycle of birth, evolution, decay, and death, repeating again and again.  Did you know that Earth was made from a dying star?  The elements from that star were released and then some combined here and there to make our planet.  Over time, life evolved!  We began as tiny organisms and now we are intelligent life!  All of us are made up of the exact same things!  We are all one, and we are all connected, and this is so beautiful.
    No matter which ideology resonates with you, they all pretty much share this same message: we are all connected, we are all one.
    I know you love everyone and want to spread your message, and I admire that, because I, too, love everyone and want to spread that message of love to as many people as possible.
    We just have different ways of doing it, and both of our ways are good, for we both have love in our hearts as well as good intentions.

    I just think that what you believe in shouldn’t be such a big deal.  We all come from different worlds with different realities.  There are always going to be opposing opinions.  Instead of arguing and creating more negativity, what if we embraced each other’s differences and all just loved each other despite our opposing ideas?
    It doesn’t matter if you are atheist or jewish or muslim or hindu or buddhist or christian or wiccan (or anything and everything else I missed), as long as you act with love, speak with love, touch with love, etc. etc. etc., you’re living the way you’re supposed to.  And if there is a creator, and an afterlife, I am sure that they recognize this.  As long as you love, above anything else, and as long as you accept, no matter what a person does, you won’t have to worry about where you are going to end up after this life ends.

  • @destinationmoderation - well… i have… i’ve read a lot of articles on it… 

  • I believe your good intentions and admire them also, but, did you read my name?  Of course I have to share.  And I have been where they have not heard of God or Jesus, yet when they did, they yearned for him and accepted his free gift of salvation.. And you are wrong about not knowing about the afterlife.  When I was 8, an accident struck me brain dead according to the doctors.  I saw Heaven and my loved ones that had passed and heard Jesus tell me it was not my time.  After 3 days I woke up and knew my path, but like many I did not want to hear the truth so I lead a life of excess with drugs and parties and sex.  None of it fulfilled me.  After 32 years of running from God, I finally accepted his calling on my life.  I have seen miracles and 200 people a day in the jungles of Africa accept Jesus.  Yes, I have seen those who would be dead in Christ except we went there to tell them.  YES, the Bible tells us this is true so since we all came from the same place they need him because they are our brothers and sisters.  This may not sit well with you if you are a live and let die person.  I’m sorry, I don’t buy the Co-exist movement and their cute bumperstickers.  I will always tell what I have read to be the truth of The Word.  Where else does their savior or gods say he(they) will come back and in 3 days he does?  What other belief says you do not have to work for your reward?  The world has sold you a lie and you have traded a truth for a lie (Romans 1:25).  I may be speaking to deaf ears, but now you have heard.  I won’t bother you anymore and I will pray for you.  God Bless You!

  • That’s the point of atheism. I don’t think you can be a true atheist if you’re 100% certain God doesn’t exist.

    The point of atheism is that you’ve thought about it and you’re not going to believe something without proof and so far there is neither proof that God doesn’t exist there is just a hell of a lot of evidence. (no pun intended)

  • Too many things happen, from day-to-day, for there not to be someone’s hand at the wheel or on the wheel of life…. Those of you not comfortable with there being a higher being behind the scenes, so be it!! Me, personally, I have no doubt about many things of a godly nature, as well as satanic nature, going on behind the scenes. But it still comes down to personal choice, as always…… Peace

  • Is there a race of super-intelligent God-like creatures of microscopically tiny size living deep inside the apple tree in my back yard?

        I don’t think so.

    Can I be sure? What if they are sub-atomic size? What if they are invisible?

         Well, “scientifically”, one might argue that, given enough parameters to allow them to escape detection, I could not ever prove that they aren’t there. But I’m sure they don’t exist and I’m going to happily cut the tree down soon with a heartfelt confidence that I am not destroying an advanced civilisation. In a similar fashion I am sure that God does not exist.

    Ah! But you can’t be sure can you?

         Yes. Yes I can. Theists can be sure that he does exist, based on basically no physical evidence, and I suspect they could be sure that my tree is uncolonised despite the miniscule possibility that it is. Logically my surety should be allowed to carry the same weight. I have noticed though that many religious people don’t give it that weight and insist that I’m kidding myself, or lying, and that one day, when my kid is very sick, or when I am on my deathbed, I will pray. No. No I won’t. I haven’t prayed during the deaths of several family members, I didn’t pray during two near-death experiences, and I won’t pray when I die. Of course I won’t come back to say I didn’t so the religious types will continue to believe that I convertted at the last second. Everyone does.

    Everyone!

  • @Pastor_Rock - The proof for Islam is the Koran… You can do that with just about every Holy book for every religion. Thus the failure of your argument.

  • “Athiestic agnostic” is my general stance, so if you count me under “athiest” (I think this stance is properly classified that way?), then my answer is obviously no.

    I don’t know about others, some people I’ve encountered seem rather certain of their answers one way or the other, but certainty eludes me. Probability, on the other hand, does not; my thinking at the moment is that there is probably not a god in the sense that the typical Judeo-Christian viewpoint seems to conceive of. (Admittedly, I have a limited point of view; I have not extensively studied theology.) In the back of my mind, other possibilities have more potential for being true.

  • Yes.

  • @Pastor_Rock - lol  I’m sorry but I refuse to believe in a book that contradicts itself, thinks homosexuality is wrong, and doesn’t exactly place women in very high regard.  In my experience, many “Christians” are the most intolerant people I have ever encountered.  I would also like to say that I never said anything about my personal beliefs.  I am a spiritual person.  Frankly, if I were to believe in the Bible then that’d mean I’d be going to Hell (a place I don’t even believe in).  Cue your “not if you atone for your sins” comment.  I have no regrets about my life, nor do I believe in sin, therefore I have nothing to atone for.  I believe in some sort of higher power along with karma and reincarnation.   You can now tell me that I am incorrect and that I should believe in the Christian God by quoting passages from the bible; but ultimately, it is all subjective and nobody REALLY knows the truth, I mean REALLY knows (the way I know that in this reality if I put water in a pot and turn the heat on high it will boil.) that the Christian idea of God and heaven etc exists.  Not to mention that pagan religions were around a LOOOOONNNGGGGGG time before Christianity.  Funny, how some of their holidays are very similar…..
    #conversionfail

  • The denial of absolute truth is an amazing unintelligent position for people to take. 

  • It is equally as arrogant and bigoted to believe as fact that a god/entity/higher power does not exist, as an atheist, as it to believe that a god DOES exist for certain as person of faith, and impose your religious beliefs onto others. Either way, neither side knows what is going on, or what happens after we are dead. Because no one has died and returned to tell us all what happens on the other side.

    ‘Can you be sure that God does not exist?’

    I am an antitheist. I am more than willing to take that risk of doubt. Religion has caused more harm and death unto the world and mankind moreso than anything else in human history.

    The greatest burning desire of all humans is to know who or what created us and how we came to be. The human ego has evolved too arrogantly to believe that anything as great and fascinating and advanced as we are could be from pure chance/accident.

  • @misuriver - Really, which ones have you actually read?  I’ve read many including The Morman texts and The Koran.  They are works based, while the new testament of the Bible is a promise of a free gift of forgiveness of the sin for everyone that believes.  If you read the koran and decide to not believe it, Muslims believe they have the right to kill you.  Sound reasonable?  The only thing I am compelled to do is share my faith so others will hear.  If you decide to not believe, that is your deal.  I’m not going to hate you and want to kill you for that.  BTW, Christians and Jews are not supposed to be infidels to Muslims according to the Koran because God is God.  Do you think they know that?

  • @desiredperfection3 - Ok, so you’ve known, as you put it, “intolerant” Christians.  Please don’t put all of us in that category.  The Bible I know has wonderful stories about intelligent strong and powerful women and many stupid Men. It has many stories that cover things that sound contradictory when taken out of context to prove that point, but that does not make it wrong.  While you are right, it definitely says Homosexuality is wrong, It also says everybody has forgiveness of sin, no matter what the sin, so I don’t think there is much point in pointing out theirs.  I don’t know who you heard your info from, but salvation is about acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice for everyone.  Atonement is in fact repayment which has already been done, so all that is necessary is belief in that sacrifice and act of love for you.  I don’t care if you believe in Hell or not.  I don’t get to judge you.  All I know is I died, I saw Heaven, and now I’m back to tell anyone who wants to know what I saw, and have a small glimpse.  Some will claim it was just my brain misfiring, but it is as real to me as watching water boil.  Faith is of course finding something to believe in and if you just don’t want to believe, that’s fine.  I get to kick the dust off my shoes and move on because now I have told you.  It’s all up to you to explore it or not.   I get to share what I know to be truth in my life, listen, comment, argue or disagree hear, and sometimes I even joke around, but don’t pretend you know what I am going to say. You don’t have enough leather to walk in my old shoes.  And, BTW, many Pagan religions “Did” come before Christianity.  That was clearly defined in…The Bible.

  • @coolmonkey - I do believe that’s a worthy question to ask. I’ll try to give as worthy an answer.
    I’ll use a typical example – it won’t be ground-breaking, but I think it’ll suffice to get my point across.

    I think, first, we have to ask two questions.
    1) What is the nature of truth?
    2) How do we know what that truth is?

    To answer the first question, we must understand the difference between truth and opinion (or perception). It also helps to understand the difference between absolute and relative truth…not to mention being careful to mis-catagorize the two.

    Then, to answer the second question, we have to recognize that if anything is true, then there is a standard present. We know the distance between point A and point B is an inch when we compare it to the standardized distance that is designated as an inch. We know that the minted coin with Lincoln on one side is a penny when it meets all the requirements of a penny (metal, size, design images, etc).

    Clearly, people will tell all sorts of lies and make claims that what they say is true. Just because they say it’s true, obviously, doesn’t mean it is true. The question comes down to recognizing that for something to be true, there must be a reasonable, logical standard to measure that claim against. So when you ask me how I figure that what I claim is true really is the truth, honestly, I have no easy way to answer that question (not in a short explanation…there are far too many factors to answer for here).

    However, let’s consider a few factors about the Bible’s claims, which I support.
    There is historical, extra-Biblical evidence that supports the claims found in the Bible about various people and events and locations. This can be verified by way of other civilizations of the past and the records such cultures kept. Excavations have proven countless places (such as the once fabled Babylon) actually did exist as referenced in Scriptures.

    Further, the available literature (or copies) of the Bible (from which we derive our English translations) number in the thousands. More than ANY OTHER ancient writings combined, and with less than 1% in any noted variances between them. This means that simple deduction allows us to confidently conclude the context of the original Biblical writings (though they do not exist today). Also, the noted discrepancies (that 1%) amount to little more than minor typos (like leaving an “s” out of a word that normally would have an “s”). I’ll explain what I mean…

    I’ll write the same sentence four times, each with a minor variation from the other.
    I hope you have a gret day.
    I hop you have a great day.
    I hope youhave a great day.
    I hope your day is great.

    Take any single instance of that sentence and compare it to the other three. Even with the minor error in that instance, compared to the other three identical instances, you can reasonably conclude the meaning of the sentence. Even the last instance, while using “your” instead of “you”, reversing the order of “great” and “day, & using “is” instead of “a”, the meaning of the sentence remains 100% in tact. Again, we can be sure of this because of the abundance of the other copies of the same sentence. If the original sentence was specifically “I hope you have a great day” (no errors of any kind), but was lost, the other four copies support each other allowing for accurate deduction of the original. So it is with the Bible.

    Thus, we have historical evidence and accuracy of the sources used to translate the Bible. Understandably, this is a weak argument when answering the ultimate question that you asked. I simply wanted to attempt to give a couple of points to consider to begin with.

    The more difficult claims to answer come in the theological realm. I don’t have the ability yet to give a simple summation to those claims as to why they are true. They have to be examines individually.

    What I can say is that if we agree that there is an absolute truth, then logically, any claim that references truth as its source for validity with either succeed or fail. For example, we know what it means when we reference the numerical value of 4. So when I make the claim that 2+2=4, either my claim is true or it is false. It 2+2 must be compared to the absolute truth – in other words, the standard – of the value of 4. (We could also go back to my earlier example of the inch.)

    What I’m trying to get at, ultimately, is that the claims of the Bible have been examined closely for generations. In my own studies, as well, I have found the claims of the Bible to hold accurate, verifiable and all-together trustworthy. The trick, clearly, I think, is learning to tell the difference between what we think is true and what really is true (in others, being careful to not apply our own understanding to the Bible and thus risking misjudging it).

    Again, I know that’s not the best possible answer to support why I believe that what I believe in is actually the truth, but I hope that gives a starting point. Thanks for hearing me out.

    @strawberrydevil - How ironic that you make such a statement. For you’re stating “there is no truth” as a point of truth. It contradicts itself. You’re literally saying “it is true that there is no truth”. Either there is or there is not truth. It’s complete lunacy to argue that there is no such thing as truth. Interpretation is simply how we understand the nature of what is true. Interpretation can be wrong, but that doesn’t diminish the reality of truth.

  • @coolmonkey - I do believe that’s a worthy question to ask. I’ll try to give as worthy an answer.
    I’ll use a typical example – it won’t be ground-breaking, but I think it’ll suffice to get my point across.

    I think, first, we have to ask two questions.
    1) What is the nature of truth?
    2) How do we know what that truth is?

    To answer the first question, we must understand the difference between truth and opinion (or perception). It also helps to understand the difference between absolute and relative truth…not to mention being careful to mis-catagorize the two.

    Then, to answer the second question, we have to recognize that if anything is true, then there is a standard present. We know the distance between point A and point B is an inch when we compare it to the standardized distance that is designated as an inch. We know that the minted coin with Lincoln on one side is a penny when it meets all the requirements of a penny (metal, size, design images, etc).

    Clearly, people will tell all sorts of lies and make claims that what they say is true. Just because they say it’s true, obviously, doesn’t mean it is true. The question comes down to recognizing that for something to be true, there must be a reasonable, logical standard to measure that claim against. So when you ask me how I figure that what I claim is true really is the truth, honestly, I have no easy way to answer that question (not in a short explanation…there are far too many factors to answer for here).

    However, let’s consider a few factors about the Bible’s claims, which I support.
    There is historical, extra-Biblical evidence that supports the claims found in the Bible about various people and events and locations. This can be verified by way of other civilizations of the past and the records such cultures kept. Excavations have proven countless places (such as the once fabled Babylon) actually did exist as referenced in Scriptures.

    Further, the available literature (or copies) of the Bible (from which we derive our English translations) number in the thousands. More than ANY OTHER ancient writings combined, and with less than 1% in any noted variances between them. This means that simple deduction allows us to confidently conclude the context of the original Biblical writings (though they do not exist today). Also, the noted discrepancies (that 1%) amount to little more than minor typos (like leaving an “s” out of a word that normally would have an “s”). I’ll explain what I mean…

    I’ll write the same sentence four times, each with a minor variation from the other.
    I hope you have a gret day.
    I hop you have a great day.
    I hope youhave a great day.
    I hope your day is great.

    Take any single instance of that sentence and compare it to the other three. Even with the minor error in that instance, compared to the other three identical instances, you can reasonably conclude the meaning of the sentence. Even the last instance, while using “your” instead of “you”, reversing the order of “great” and “day, & using “is” instead of “a”, the meaning of the sentence remains 100% in tact. Again, we can be sure of this because of the abundance of the other copies of the same sentence. If the original sentence was specifically “I hope you have a great day” (no errors of any kind), but was lost, the other four copies support each other allowing for accurate deduction of the original. So it is with the Bible.

    Thus, we have historical evidence and accuracy of the sources used to translate the Bible. Understandably, this is a weak argument when answering the ultimate question that you asked. I simply wanted to attempt to give a couple of points to consider to begin with.

    The more difficult claims to answer come in the theological realm. I don’t have the ability yet to give a simple summation to those claims as to why they are true. They have to be examines individually.

    What I can say is that if we agree that there is an absolute truth, then logically, any claim that references truth as its source for validity with either succeed or fail. For example, we know what it means when we reference the numerical value of 4. So when I make the claim that 2+2=4, either my claim is true or it is false. It 2+2 must be compared to the absolute truth – in other words, the standard – of the value of 4. (We could also go back to my earlier example of the inch.)

    What I’m trying to get at, ultimately, is that the claims of the Bible have been examined closely for generations. In my own studies, as well, I have found the claims of the Bible to hold accurate, verifiable and all-together trustworthy. The trick, clearly, I think, is learning to tell the difference between what we think is true and what really is true (in others, being careful to not apply our own understanding to the Bible and thus risking misjudging it).

    Again, I know that’s not the best possible answer to support why I believe that what I believe in is actually the truth, but I hope that gives a starting point. Thanks for hearing me out.

    @strawberrydevil - How ironic that you make such a statement. For you’re stating “there is no truth” as a point of truth. It contradicts itself. You’re literally saying “it is true that there is no truth”. Either there is or there is not truth. It’s complete lunacy to argue that there is no such thing as truth. Interpretation is simply how we understand the nature of what is true. Interpretation can be wrong, but that doesn’t diminish the reality of truth.

  • @sometimestheycomebackanyway - You misunderstood what I meant then. I was showing you how what you had said previously was true, and which part was false. I did not mean that the whole of your comments were both true and false…merely which parts.

    Second, I claried which definition of faith the Christian believer and the Bible utilizes. To write off the Bible simply because it reasons from evidence-based faith is quite silly. This isn’t random belief with no factual support to back it up. The Bible makes particular claims about God’s existance, and, using logic and reason about the reality we exist in, we can conclude that the Bible’s claims are rational and true. This isn’t circular reasoning at all.

    @tru_indo - Science can only examine the world around us when we use the right tools. You can only see the microscopic universe while using a microscope. You can’t see the effects of the wind without our eyes or sensors (ie: windmill, our skin’s nerve endings). Outer space’s depths are limited to percieve without a gigantic telescope. Again, it’s all based on the tools. Typically, our scientific understanding and tools are limited to the physical – the five senses.

    But the Bible describes God’s being as spiritual – a non-physical existance, but still existing. Thus, we must learn to study God’s nature using spiritual tools, which the Bible describes how to employ (ie: prayer, trust, obedience, and so on).

    So, when it comes to understanding the origins of the universe and God, it’s perfectly logical to reason that God is the ultimate beginning. Even our limited scientific understanding has reasoned that time, itself, had a very literal beginning. The very flow of the fabric of time as we understand it had a beginning. There was a point in…er, “time” when there was not “past”. Not even a “future”. God just was…er, IS. So within our scientific knowledge, we know that nothing that exists today could just spontaneously pop into existence. EVERY scientific study has shown that someone or something was a precursor to  an effect or outcome of the current state of whatever is being studied. Ice changes state to water due to heat (though the heat waves, themselves, are invisible.) The water tide changes due to the invisible power of the moon’s gravitational pull.

    You might have any number of causes that occured before a particular effect, but at some point, you have to have a point of original cause. That is God.

  • Thanks dear for the clarification. I’m the agnostic then. For some reason I have no interest in religion and dont know much about it. To me it really doesn’t matter either but seems to just cause controversies that keep people from getting along. @xsimplepleasuresx - 

  • @Rhindon - Think about it theoretically. Truth is relative and subjective. It’s just a word we’ve prescribed to an abstract idea. It’s not the same thing for everyone either. Thinking of it that way… Can you truly prove anything? You cannot prove an abstract idea. You can only validate your own feelings. Therefore, ‘Truth’ does not exist. > This statement is not ‘truth’ or ‘fact,’ it is just a way of validating my own feelings through a statement, and I recognize that it’s not the same thing for everyone else. Just because one or more people believe the same thing, it does not make the idea fact. It just means that they share the same prescribed definition of an idea.  

    I am not saying you don’t have the right to believe there are definite ‘Truth’s', but it would be nice if people could realize that ‘Truth’ is subjective, instead of repetitively bashing on each other with the same arguements all the time.

  • @presently_clandestine - 

    “The denial of absolute truth is an amazing unintelligent position for people to take.”

    What exactly did you mean?

  • He does exist iv got him on twitter

  • k

  • @strawberrydevil - You’re argument unfortunately contradicts itself. While you are say that truth is subjective, you are making an objective argument. If truth is subjective, even your argument for the nature of truth is equally as unverifiable as you suppose mine is. It would be pointless to even state your argument for the nature of truth. You cannot say that the truth about truth is that truth does not exist. How can you argue that something is and is not at the same time? If the truth is that truth is not then your argument completely lacks any validity.

    For a deeper discussion on the nature of truth, I recommend this article I wrote: The Truth About Truth.

  • @Pastor_Rock - I dont believe homosexuality is a sin, so on that basis alone I do not believe in Christianity because I cannot get behind a religion that makes an entire group of people feel Less Than..  I don’t ever feel the need to share my beliefs with others unless asked, because I figure people are smart enough to figure out their own beliefs, or their desire for knowledge about certain beliefs and can find that information themselves without others volunteering it…….  but I am glad you feel better.

  • @Pastor_Rock - You have SEEN no miracles — unless of course you are dishonest and willing to change the definition of a miracle.

  • @Pastor_Rock - There is NO scientific evidence supporting ANY of the extraordinary claims made by so called Christians.

  • Christianity defined: The belief that if you telepathically accept a Jewish Zombie as your master, symbolically eat his flesh and drink his blood, that he will let you live forever, by removing an evil force from your soul put there because a talking snake told a rib less women to eat fruit from a magical tree!

  • @sometimestheycomebackanyway - you had better go back and take some science and math classes because you are WRONG on every thing you commented on here. The mathematical odds of a black (or red) being rolled 15 times in a row during Roullette are very small — but over thousands or tens of thousands of spins of the wheel — it HAPPENS. And it happens randomly and “random” is less random in the world of nature than it is in your understanding of “random”.

  • @Captric - I understand math just fine. I’ve studied it way past calculus as a matter of fact.

    You aren’t the one who gets to declare factual information wrong. Nevertheless, people like you can ignore the facts and hallucinate alternate universes of your own making.

    From such alternate universes come proven hog wash as global warming and alternative fuels.

  • @sometimestheycomebackanyway - If you understand math so well – why is it that you misunderstand Statistics and probability so BADLY!! There ARE no alternative universes except the ones created by religious zealots where facts do not matter, pragmatic and scientific are thinking do not exist, and “faith is based on historical accounts handed down through thousands of years and reinterpreted MULTIPLE times in to HUNDREDS of foreign languages by people hell bent on keeping their myth alive!! Not to mention the murder of innocent people, wars, pedophilia, unhealthy intermarriage, and the ARROGANCE of “knowing the truth” based only on personal “feelings”!

    Remember - the christian cult is the the belief that if you telepathically accept a Jewish ZOMBIE as you personal master, symbolically eat his flesh and drink his blood in a bloody pagan ritual called “confirmation”, that he will allow you to live forever by removing an evil spirit from your soul put there because a talking snake told a rib less women to eat fruit from a magical tree. That my friend is MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to be true! Evolution is mathematically VERY possible albeit rare!

  • @Captric - You called me a religious zealot even though none of my arguments involve religion.  That is an example of you being in an alternate universe.

    It is impossible to carry on a rational discussion with people who have no idea what reality actually is.

    Go abuse and name call someone else.

  • @sometimestheycomebackanyway - So you DO believe in alternate universes, gods, demons, devils, impossible to replicate miracles and other mythological stories designed to frighten children in to behaving. That was the easiest argument I have won all day. 

  • @Captric - You’re long past the point of having any credibility. I was willing to cut you a break until you started ranting and raving about zombies. 

    You better get a new formula for your meds.

  • @sometimestheycomebackanyway - I gotta love your use of words — ranting and raving?? LOL

    Jesus was the ORIGINAL Zombie……and his story is almost as good as ANYTHING Hollywood has come up with!!!Here is the textbook definition of a Zombie: “Zombie (Haitian Creole: zonbi; North Mbundu: nzumbe) is a term used to denote an animated corpse brought back to life by mystical means, such as witchcraft.[1] The term is often figuratively applied to describe a hypnotized person bereft of consciousness and self-awareness, yet ambulant and able to respond to surrounding stimuli. Since the late 19th century, zombies have acquired notable popularity, especially in North American and European folklore.”Tell me how Hesus Kristas — or call him anything you like — is NOT a classic Zombie!!!

  • @Captric - Ranting and Raving Part Deux

  • @sometimestheycomebackanyway - And you say none of your arguments involve religion yet you are responding to an article relating the out of context words by an atheist and then use din a dishonest manner to incite atheists.

    Riiiigggghhhhtttttt
    You clearly cannot reason pragmatically or think in a mathematically correct and accurate manner. So why are you here?

  • @sometimestheycomebackanyway - As a reminder — YOUR first post on this subject: “Since the existence of God is a sure thing, and “atheist” means someone who does not believe in God, it is a sure thing that atheists believe in nonsense whether they are sure or not.”

  • @Captric - I hate to break it to you, but we are here over at TheoDan’s post, not mine.

  • @Captric -”Why am I here?” is one of the great questions of all time.

  • @Captric - And you are being blind to reality.  Ever hear of Egypt and Jerusalem? How about Spain?  All are in The Bible.  Are they fairy tale lands?  Don’t be totally ignorant.   It’s called Archeology and History.  Look into it  LOL!

  • @Captric - You don’t know me nor have you ever walked in my shoes.  I know full well the definition of a miracle and have seen hundreds.  Do you know the definition of a Blog Troll?  You are being one!  You are not adding to the discussion, just throwing in your tripe to try and start arguments.  When you come with me to Africa or India and see it happen, then you can try and argue your point.   Our team just returned from India BTW and SAW a blind girl that regained her sight after our group prayed over her a year ago.  American Surgeons and Doctors had CERTIFIED her completely blind beyond repair as in her optic nerves were severed.  There was no way she would ever see, yet she does today.  YOU can stay blind and dispute my evidence all day long, but I believe them (The Doctors) more than I will ever believe you!  I don’t really care because you are a Troll who I doubt would spend $3500 of your own money to go overseas to see actual miracles happen. I doubt you barely leave Mommas basement hiding behind your Computer screen playing Black Ops.   I feel sorry for you and truly pity someone who likes to pick fights with people they don’t even know for your strange self-satisfaction.  Come on now, make up some Crap story about how you’re somebody important and educated!  Your credibility sucks here.

  • @Pastor_Rock - And who is the “troll” here and what exactly does that mean? Are you trying the historical method of silencing decent that the christians are so famous for? I am not trying to sell anything here. I am not trying to collect money for an organization of mystics that use that money to promote and hide pedophiles, or give the names of Jews to Nazis to guarantee their slaughter, or kill scientists who proclaim that the earth is not the center of the universe, or burn witches at the stake after they “confess” under torture to being a witch, or fly airplanes in to buildings. That is what people who fund corrupt and evil religions do.

    I have not been to Africa – but I HAVE traveled the world. I lived in China for two months last year as an example and I have been to Europe and almost every country in Asia and many islands between here and there. I have been to many countries in South America. It is funny that you should give Africa as an example of the good deeds of your good work produced by you father in the sky who looks like a gran fatherly Caucasian European in your minds eye. I have met thousands of good and decent people who rarely ponder the existence of a god and do good by their friends, family and neighbors.And yet your Africans who pray harder everyday to a mythical and non existent god than most can ever imagine and what does god do for them? They DIE by the millions from disease and pestilence and things as simple as tooth decay and diet while the “atheists ” are enjoying all the food they can manage to store in their refrigerators and live in to their 90′s. What does your god hate Africans so much?The fact is, the only reason you are successful at pushing your mystical beliefs in Africa is because the people are SO desperate for hope – even if it is the false hope of Christianity.Funny also that you should mention Spain…..most famous for the Spanish Inquisitions where marauding evil Christians tried to dominate the world by exposing the innocent people of South and North America to germ warfare making them so sick that they were unable to fight back. Take the island of Guam as an example, a place I lived for 18 months. The Spanish wiped out the male population, impregnated the women, and converted them all to Christianity where many are still steadfastly Christian in spite of the facts of the evils of their ancestors. False promise of an eternal life is a more powerful, and just as destructive, drug as Heroin. And you are a pusher.On miracles – there ARE no miracles, some doctors are my best friends and they do not “certify” anyone as to anything. The only miracles you have witnessed are randomly occurring events that you cannot explain because of your lack of science education. Document a miracle and post it on you tube for peer review is you are so sure. You will have to “redefine” the meaning of a miracle in order to do that and you will expose yourself as a fraud, desperately seeking reconfirmation of your own beliefs because hardly anyone, outside of Africa, believes you.Here are the facts: you beliefs are plagiarized from pagan stone age religions and greek mythology and assigned to your christian icon Jesus. Why is it that walking on water, turning water in to wine, being born a virgin, arising from the dead, making bread fall from the sky, healing blindness with spit, are all considered myths unless those attributes are assigned to Jesus in which case they are now FACTS and PROOF? If the existence of God is so self evident, why do you have to sell him so fervently? Why does he not just show us all ONE believable miracle? Like growing the limbs back on an amputee as a result of prayer??????? That should be easy for a god and it would certainty shut my mouth wouldn’t it! Untill then — I will continue to expose your fraud and fight this ignorance everywhere I find it!

  • @Captric - I’m sorry Troll, did you say something significant?…  I thought not.

  • @Pastor_Rock - Not only significant — TROLL — but provable and mathematically correct. TYu cannot argue your point of view without resorting to name calling and marginalization of facts and fact seekers. It is amazing to me that people like you who still believe in Bronze age fairy tales are still able to use a computer. Computers, modern medicine, clean water, your automobile and the gas that runs it, the airplanes ride in to Africa in a controlled and Homo Sapien friendly pressurized environment were not the results of prayer or mythological magic. They are the results of science and mathematics – something you poorly understand but freely take advantage of daily!!

  • @Captric - Oh, did I hurt your poor feelings?  You constantly are picking your fights with others here and repeating your diatribes in order to try and justify you ridiculous rants.  I understand science and believe science and Christianity back each other up as time goes on and new discoveries are uncovered.  Contrary to your narrow vision, the Bible is not a total linear timeline, so if you add logic, many more things are possible. Even Stephen Hawkins has changed his theories on black holes as more data is available.  You just don’t know, and deep down that is what scares you. I’ve stated the truth as I see it here and now I am kicking the dust off my proverbial sandals because you are so vocal in your righteous indignation that others point of view just don’t matter.  If you want to act like a child, you will be treated as one.  If you act like a Troll, that is what you will be here.  It’s exactly what people like you do when someone dares to disagree with your beliefs.  Feels funny when someone turns the table on you doesn’t it?  I just borrowed a page right out of your playbook and you fed right into it.  You go along and save your dribble for your next Agnostic/Atheist Meeting where you and your little group can be counter cultural and smug as you convince yourselves that you are Right about EVERYTHING!  BTW, I build computers for fun and profit, so Bite me!

  • @Pastor_Rock - Don’t congratulate yourself with your condescending christian comments – it would take bigger metal midget to “hurt my feelings” than you. And Science and Christianity are NOT compatible unless you believe man and earth were created in seven days and that the world was flooded! Of COURSE scientific theories “change” !!! That is the definition of a Scientific theory – a set of facts to support a hypothesis and as new facts are discovered the theory by definition has to adjust. That does not make the “theory of gravity” or the “theory of evolution” any less valid. It simply makes them STRONGER. That is the antithesis of religion where MY God is the only god and MY religion is the only valid religion. And is some countries where theocracies are dominant structures of government – you can be KILLED for believing in anything except the State Sponsored Religion!

  • @Captric - Oh well in that case, you win, I am totally wrong and you are right. Feel better?  One day you will maybe grow up, but somehow I doubt it.  I pity you and your narrow vision of life.  How sad to live such a sad, angry, and Bullying existence.  You would not believe how many people like you that I have met that do actually change.  I’ll pray you do too.  Oh, and no need to reply, because whatever you say will just be more unsubstantiated dribble from the Atheist talk sheets.  Have a great sad life.

  • @Pastor_Rock - Well that is the only thing that you have said so far that is a real fact — I WIN. But I don’t care about winning – I gain no monetary benefit and little self satisfaction. My only satisfaction will be in influencing others – because you are a captive of your own myths – in to questioning the “authority” of shamans and magic men like yourself. You are being exposed as a fraud on a daily basis and do not worry about me – being an atheist – if that is the “fake title” you choose to assign to me – means – is that you do not believe in a force or being or god that controls us and the beating of every butterfly wing. There IS no atheist talk sheet and those is only a statement that is expected from a so called christian who actually DO have talk sheets.

    And not to worry about my happiness – I have a great career – I am in great health – I have a wonderful and caring life partner- I travel the world at my own expense and educate myself constantly. You should at least TRY to do the same. Take a course in Greek Mythology from a reputable University, try a mathematics course in probability and statistics. Try the online courses from a web site called THE GREAT COURSES. But I dont really expect you to get an education – that is for people who are genuinely seeking the truth – not for people like you hell bent of keeping the MYTH alive!

  • For everyone out here.  I’m pretty much done with Captric as he is oblivious to sarcasm, and has a tendency to troll, then attack oppositional viewpoints without real logic applied.  Once again he assumes I am an uneducated buffoon when in reality I am not only world traveling clergy, but I am a professor with a liberal arts degree who has actually taught students who often were atheist.  I have seen the talking points they were given in order to debunk Christianity.  I have even had ones that attended Atheist Sunday school where they were filled with ways to insult Christians by changing the subject, feigning education they never received.  And, yes we have talking points…It’s called the Bible.  If you study his text you will find errors that reveal a person typing angrily and from the hip.  I have lead him on to reveal this Trollish behavior in response to reading his blatant attacks on others here.  If you want to argue a point, you don’t have to start on the attack.  Simply state your point and leave your personal attacks at home.  I often have intelligent conversations with Agnostics and Atheist and count most of you as my friends here.  I am just tired of seeing ridiculous anonymous attacks without some establishment of decorum first.  Peace

  • @Pastor_Rock - there is no “evidence” supporting anything magical in the Bible. If you have some genuine evidence – I don’t care what someone SAID 2000 years ago – then please present it here and I will convert immediately.  The miracles in the bible did not happen and were plagiarized from ancient pagan religions that existed up to 3000 years before Jesus was a twinkle in Josephs eye.

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