February 26, 2008
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Lying
Let me give you a hypothetical. Imagine that you were taken captive by the enemy. Imagine that they asked you questions to determine where your fellow troops position were so they could bomb them.
Now imagine you wanted to throw them off so you gave them the wrong information.
Would it be a sin to lie in that situation?
Comments (162)
No.
Even Bonhoeffer struggled with a plot to kill Hitler, leaning so heavily on Grace and the waters of his baptism, because a sin will always be a sin.
I believe if you look to the teachings of Christ, his point is not to get lost in the letters of the law, but instead see the opportunity for Love.
No, but it will be very hard to lie, depending on what kind of force the enemy is going to used to obtain the correct information.
Tough one. What if, because of your information, they end up bombing a village full of innocent people?
Doing the wrong thing with the right intentions should be OK.
Hmm. I don’t know. I would just rather not give them any information whatsoever.
Unfortunately, yes.
But you can thank Jesus. Sins are forgiven.
That is kind of like asking whether or not it is a sin to lie to someone when you trying to surprise them, like with a surprise party or something.
would that be under the sub-category: lying for the sake of good?
Road to hell paved with good intentions and all that.
WHY CAN’T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG
No, you’re doing so to protect others
NO WAY!
No. Rahab did that in the Old Testament, and God blessed her for it.
Who ever said lying was a sin?
kudos to LSP1….exactly
No, I don’t think so, I remember reading that some churches think it’s okay to make up facts about abortion because the value of human rights outweighs the value of honesty.
Personally, I’d lie, not for brownie points in heaven, but because I dont want to deal with the guilt of betraying my friends.
i’d hope not.
Hmph. In reality, I would not be in the army/navy/airforce/ whatever anyway, seeing as I’m a pascifist. If i was, say, drafted, I’d probably be scared shitless and therefore completely speechless.
But, apart from completely avoiding the question, christian belief-wise, christians are sinners by nature, and therefore we need God’s grace. so, it’d be a sin, but it would be forgiven. Cause God is cool like that.
Runs similar to the “What if you were in Nazi Germany secretly housing Jews when the SS came by searching for them; would you turn them in?” Would you be just as guilty, if you did turn them in, of their torture and possible murder, even though you weren’t the one to pull the lever in the gas chamber?
In both these cases, the sanctity of life plays trump card, as well as the motivation for your action in your heart. Let God sort it all out.
I remember dealing with a similar debate of ethics, Kant would say wrong to lie, find another method such as not answering.
In this case..no. I think god will spare you if you lied to save the life of other.
Lying is only a sin if it hurts people. So if they bomb the location you mentioned and a bunch of peasants die- then yup- that was a sin. If they bomb it, and it was just forest or desert and nobody died- then, well that wasn’t much of a sin.
But I’m not a Christian, so I don’t know what they would say. Anything that is labeled a “sin” but doesn’t actually hurt anyone- that’s pretty stupid.
if your moral conscience does not allow you to lie even in ridiculously justified situations like that, then just dont say anything when they ask your fellow troops location.
i personally dont think that God would hold the ignorant slave responsible when the master asked him if he stole a biscuit from the dinner table.
Master Jenkins: BOY did you steal something from this hea’ table?! *raises up whip*
Slave: no suh no suh!! *trembles in fright*
*God jots down slaves lie in evil deed book*
If we were to take the Bible literally, we’d be sinning just by sitting there breathing. I’m sure lying would be among the numerous sins there are, no matter what the reason. However, I’m pretty sure that no matter what faith you are, all you have to do is repent and you’re forgiven.
No, coz ur gonna die anyway..
and ur lying and gonna die for save your troops
of course not… would you rather lie and give up your self and save all those troops, or not lie and save yourself (even though they might kill you anyway) and have all of your comrades killed?
@LSP1 - Beat me to it.
yes.
Absolutely not.
If you were a politician or a girl, you might be able to talk in circles and avoid lying. I imagine that since you were captured by terrorists, it’s likely you’ll be executed anyway.
Can you imagine busting out a filibuster while being tortured? Just a silly image to lighten the mood.
Next you’ll be asking if it’s a sin to go into a battle wearing camouflage.
Once your captors find out that you lied–it’s going to be lights out anyway.
Would it be sin? I believe so. It is “bearing false witness.” Would I do it? ABSOLUTELY! I believe that Christ’s concern in our lives is not sins as much as it is sin. By that I mean that He is more concerned about the condition of our heart rather than individual acts that fall short of His standard. Grace!
Damn, if that is a sin, I got a lotta splainin’ to do Lucy…….
no way would it be a sin.
But
oops. But who are we to judge anyway. isn’t all that up to God anyway?!
AH HA HA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
SINNERSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
that would be the last thing on my mind.
it’s a sin to kill a bunch of innocent people, which would happen if you gave them the information
Even if it’s a lie, it was necessary to save the lives of your troop. I don’t think ANYONE can judge you for it.
no.
Gee, I remember the bible telling me that lying was always a sin. I don’t see any footnotes making exceptions there.
So it comes down to, sin by lying or almost sin by contributing to the deaths of other men.
Then again the military treats men like they’re disposable, so I guess it doesn’t matter.
No, but when they get word back that you lied, you’re in for a world of torture.
You’re not supposed to lie when a POW because it can cause harm to your fellow detainees.
I think I would just remain silent when questioned and would not try to fool them into looking in a different location. Why give them anything? They are going to torture and kill me anyway, so just let them be frustrated.
Right and wrong are relative to begin with, if you lie to protect your friends or troops then you are in the right.
Who cares? Let’s see…Lie and protect lives, or tell the holly truth and be an accessory to murder. Glad I don’t let a book dictate what I think is right and wrong.
The Bible tells you to obey your superiors. In this case your Superior Officer has instructed you NOT to reveal locations to the enemy. Therefore, giving false information is not lying in the first place. Any “sin” involved visits the superior officer.
I would say no but really that is in the eyes of God and we have no way of knowing.
lying is wrong, in general, but in this case it is such a small evil to save so many lives that I doubt you would be held responsible for it.
let’s say, then, that you told that lie to throw people off that were ‘the good guys’ or on your side. What do you wanna bet everybody says that’s a sin? bungling information to thwart people?
what you should say is ‘would it be right for you to be held responsible for that lie?’
No. You are protecting your country. Same way as it was okay for the Germans to hide Jews in their homes and lie about it.
No, but if they get back to the same guy, after they have checked the positions of the troops, he’s a dead man anyways…
ha ha. I was just reading about this for class. Immanueal Kant says it is wrong and a sin because you could tell the men they were somewhere else and while you are distracting them they could sneak out the door only to be found later by the bad guys and killed. Ni kidding.. I read this yesturday.. lol
Is it a sin? No.. but it is still a lie. The problem with asking hypotheticla questions is that many would use this as a chance to say lieing is ok all the time because it “keeps people from harm”. I think every situation is different and for like 99.99% of the time lying is always wrong and always sinful.
Daniel (doubledb)
That’s a very hard question to answer. The answer will vary depending on which side of the war you are on. To your comrades, the lie will be forgivable because it spares their lives. To your foes, the lie will mean you are in the wrong because you are protecting those that are hated – and to them, if your friends are still alive, it means more of their own friends will die…
Well, why would a loving God put you into that position? As a test of faith? What if they found out it was untrue and killed you? Did God bless you for your actions?
I love it when you give hypotheticals to the moral absolutists that frequent your site.
It would be a better choice to just keep your mouth shut. Utilitarianism at it’s finest. Then you don’t lie at all, and the good of many out weighs the good of one.
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OKay that depends on ..from who’s perspective..
See,if you go biblically.. A lie is a lie is a lie is a sin.
You are asking this question and you are getting personal opinion. But you knew that.
Anyways, The whole shabang ..I really dont lie. Not in fear of it being a sin..because I dont believe in the sin thing.
I believe in common sense/knowing what is right or wrong.. But.. If I knew that they would kill me anyways..no matter the truth or not?.. I would LIE MY Ass off!! Just to be entertained my last moments in Vivo! ..And to see how much time it would buy me.. And if I knew that they will let me go if I tell them.. Uhmm..
yeah,I would tell BECAUSE.
Isnt that why they are fighting also?..
To save us? Is that wrong to say that?.. I really dont mean it in a mocking nor selfish way..way. I am seriously honestly asking..
BUT no worries..I would never know where they were anyways.So technically,I will be telling the truth no matter what.. by saying ,”I DONT KNOW WHERE THEY ARE”
Did Rahab sin?
Technically, yes, it’s a sin. However, I wouldn’t consider it a bad thing to do as you’d be saving so many lives.
ryc: I’m glad you turned yourself in!
Honesty is such a good moral. If I hadn’t learned honesty then, who knows when I would’ve!
Which is funny that I just wrote that… since this post is about lying… :p
who cares! LIE LIE LIE!
I don’t believe it would be a lie… the greater good and all that?
A lie is only a sin if it is malicious otherwise it is just a fictional story. Don’t you think the sin would be in telling the truth and causing someone to die, for the Bible also says thou shalt not kill? In telling the truth, you would be killing all your men.
If they were stupid enough, I’d try and get them to bomb their own troops. Hell, if they’re anything like the U.S, they would.
I think, according to the Bible, the right thing would be to not say anything at all (a la Jesus before the crucifixion) and let them kill you instead.
lying is a sin. God said “thou shall not lie” and since sin is described in the bible as the breaking of God’s laws or commands then lying is and always will be a sin. does not matter the circumstances of why you lied.
in the situation that you mentioned, I would have to say that the only option would be to remain silent and let them torture you. It is better I think to die and go to heaven, then to break God’s commands.
it depends on whether or not they keep you until they’ve verified your information. then, it depends on whether or not you’re willing to die for your troops.
they’ll probably kill you either way, so say nothing or keep quiet until you can no longer endure the beating and then tell them something–anything–to end the torture.
whew.
“Even Bonhoeffer struggled with a plot to kill Hitler, leaning so heavily on Grace and the waters of his baptism, because a sin will always be a sin.
I believe if you look to the teachings of Christ, his point is not to get lost in the letters of the law, but instead see the opportunity for Love.”
This exactly. Thanks barenakehd.
No…you can find sin in nearly any situation, but I think if you have a relationship with God (or don’t) he knows what your doing & why and I think he would want you to look out for your “brothers”
Then again, I’m just a kid…what do I know?
Funny how religion is so subjective. You can make a mountain out of a molehill or you can turn a molehill into nothing. Genius.
Not at all. The bible says to give love to man, not to always tell the truth.
is it really lying or just being mis-leading?
I believe it is best not to say anything at all. If you are giving information away to save your life, you will have guilt if you remain alive, or die anyway. If you lie to save lives, you might suffer the consequences ex get tortured. It is best to remain silent.
The Ten Commandments (and the other 603) do not say to lie is a sin, it says it is a sin to falsely testify against someone, thats not the same thing. The Commandments also say (1) that you should save someone that is being pursued, even if it means killing the pursuer; (2) Not to stand idly by if someone’s life is in danger
@seamaiden_07 -
No. God blessed her for what she did. Not only that, she is named in the geneology of Jesus.
A lie is a lie is a lie is a lie is a …
a lie is a lie. it is best to not say anything at all. God wont smite you for this lie, but it is a sin nonetheless.
No, loyalty trumps in that situation. Treason is punishable by death.
Nope.
If you told them the truth, it would be as good as murdering your fellow troops, which is also a sin, not to mention that betrayal is generally frowned upon. At least lying would save people’s lives. So while lying is still a sin, it is for the much greater good, and would be forgiven with a single word to God anyways.
If you’re going to glue your nose to one page of the Bible, then yes, that would be a sin.
No. by lying, you’re saving someone’s life. that’s pretty awesome.
its still considered the sin of lying, but the act is justified
This question is inherently flawed.
“Sin is a term used mainly in a religious context to describe an act that violates a moral rule,”
If you have no religion, then you have no issue.
Hence, I have no answer.
Zero eprops for you homeboy.
Oops, you got eprops.
Give them back.
no way!! lol
Does TheTheologiansCafe’s
think it would be a lie to sin in said situation?
The ends justify the means.
Didn’t someone post to Immanuel Kant this same question?
I would tell them nothing…. ,John 15:13
Ratting out your allies and getting them killed is definitely a much bigger sin.
i would lie, sin or no sin.
no, i don’t think so.
a lie is a lie, black, white or polka-dotted. i would simply refuse to give them any info.
Not by my book.
I would have to say no.
as far as Rahab goes, she was praised for her heart towards God people, but the Bible never directly comments on her lie as to being right or wrong, it just says she did it. then later she is acknowledged as being in the genealogy of Christ meaning she was highly regarded since women were not generally acknowledged.
for me i think its a matter of choosing the lesser of two evils and praying that God’s grace will cover you.
God’s people*
A sin is still a sin, big or small. But lying in that type a situation is the right thing to do being that your only intentions is to save other people’s lives.
no.
not really, (though if they where going to kill you, then that be another story
)
see, my morality teacher of years past would say yes.
action, intention, and circumstance must all be right for a moral action- lacking any, it is immoral.
absolutes like that rub me the wrong way.
Imagine if the enemy general called you up on the phone at home one day and asked you when the secret attack would take place. Would it be a sin to lie?
The POW code of conduct forbids one to make statements that would be harmful to the cause anyway, so you have to remain silent, evading further questioning, or give false information.
I’d say a more practical definition of lying includes something about an expectation of truthfulness as well as some greater good concern. It would not be a sin to divert someone concerning their surprise birthday party. So there are probably circumstances where it would not be wrong to misstate military objectives to those who would seek to harm one’s country.
That is a good qustion is that a sin to lie in that situation. I hope not because you are trying to save your fellow troops. its better to sacrifice myself [ 1 ] than the whole troops …
Never
That’s a tough one.
I’d do it, definitely, but is it a sin? I don’t know.
i believe it would be a sin to lie..but i think God would forgive that lie since it said with intentions to save life. and God is set against murder.
Without a second thought, I would lie to save my comrades. I won’t be able to live with myself if I let them die to save my own hide.
In situations like that, i don’t think you’d have the time nor opportunity to think about the moral merits and demerits of lying.
The God that I know is one who forgives all tresspass. And I am sure this will be forgiven.
A sin yes-a venial sin not a mortal sin. I agree with barenakehd that we should not always get caught up in the letter of the law, but look for what is the most loving option.
it would be a bigger sin to let your fellow troops be slaughtered by information you gave. it would be basically you killing them.
a lie is a lie but one of that caliber is completely acceptable…..
NO!! You’re saving lives…I’m sure God would forgive you.
A necessary one.
I’d lie to save my troops, and if God couldn’t forgive me for saving peoples’ lives – then I’m pretty sure I’d want nothing to do with Him, either.
Good thing I’m not religious, and I could lie in that situation and not worry about anyone except the people involved, including myself.
Absolutely not. You’d be saving the lives of your friends, even though you might put your life at risk when they find out your information was a lie. But Christ said that there is no greater gift than to give one’s life for their friends.
There is no sin in this situation, as far as I understand such things.
nope because you are preventing many more sins (thou shall not kill)
Lying versus people’s lives. What do you think? NO
it would be better fewer then alot.
I had this conversation once before. We came up with the conclusion that: in certain situations it is okay to lie, making it not a sin. It is okay to lie when you are helping others and you aren’t lieing just because the truth will get you into trouble. Therefore in this situtation i believe that it isn’t a sin to lie. Reason being: your helping others and not yourself.
It is not a sin to protect and defend your fellow man. If you are doing something to protect others from being ambushed and killed, then I think you have an obligation to protect them any way that you can.
There’s always going to be situations where lying is sometimes the best decision you can make, and won’t be punishable.
a sin probably since all lying is sin. but immoral? or unjust? or “wrong”? probably not those things.
I know I’m late, but my Mom gave me this advice:
If someone’s trying to hurt you, it’s ok to lie.
Meaning, “It’s okay to lie to Satan” sort of deal. And she also mentions that people who cheat, steal, lie, or try to hurt you aren’t playing by the same laws.
oO( if you don’t say anything, is it a sin? enabling…)
would silence be the only confidence??
again I say that history repeats itself even if we are not there to define it, and more so it don’t think it’s truly up to me to say what is sin… i am guilty of my own prejiduce, however lying then repenting… hhmm, yeah its already human nature to do so. Though, this questoin poses something that is not daily trivial. Much circumstantial contemplation would be needed — in truth i thinks i would lie. oO( at least by definition lying is lying, then again some ppl thinks cheating is only cheating if you get caught…my mind wonders in an ADD fashion… )
always,
Tyger.
it`s a sin when: you know what you`re doing, you`re willing to do it, and you do it anyway. i think in this situation, they`re forcing you to lie since you know bad things will happen if you tell the truth.
No. Jesus clearly shows the commandments aren’t to be taken as “srszbznz” as some would say.
If some poor bastard was dieing on a sunday, and you’re a doctor who can save him, do you let him die because the commandments said don’t work on the Sabbath? F no. Letting him die would be the sin.
Lying in that situation is the right thing to do. Telling the truth is like above situation.
Lying gets you nowhere.. no matter the circumstance..
absolutely not. saving all those lives outweighs the lie. God isn’t stupid. he won’t punish you for that. you had good intentions. and of course, you saved all those lives! if you told the truth, you would’ve assisted in the killing! thus, being a murderer! an even worse sin.
Noooooo, why would it be.
You don’t want your troops to die.
Personally I think it would be dependant on how strong your faith is. I mean, I was raised quite strictly with regards to religion growing up, but now, after going through the learning process of my faith, I realised, I’m not as faithful as I was growing up. I know too much now. So no, I don’t think it would be a sin. Not in that situation.
no, sin lies are lies that hurt someone else. selfish lies. in this case it wouldn’t be.
It’s a sin but, for a good cost. All will be forgiven.
A lie is a lie and a sin.I have often thought about this and I hope that I would say nothing at all.
I remember reading that Harriet Tubman’s mother met her blindfolded to say goodbye to her so she could honestly answer that she did not see her. I admired that she wanted to speak the truth and not just plan to lie if they asked her.
God is fair and is just. He would take everything into consideration. There are times in which lying to the enemy is a sin, and there are times when it is not.
I actually heard a speech form one of the seminary professors here about this. He used the example of Rahab – she lied about the men in her quarters. The men were of God and were doing God’s will. Later, the Lord praises her for what she does. This professor stated there is a difference in what the Bible says in the ten commandments -thou shalt not bear false witness- and lying.
Don’t get me wrong. I am within the Canadian Infantry. I am soon requesting to go overseas as well.
I am a firm believer in a higher power and I am Baptist. I would put the lives of my brothers and sisters before my own salvation anyday. The enemy we are fighting today are those that are willing to kill to the extreme due to the fact we do not follow their god, plus many other reasons.
Whether or not I am going to be damned to hell, I would gladly do it to save the rest of my brothers and sisters in arms, it’s these people that are going to hopefully save my life as well.
Whenever we are getting ready to go into the field with combat training situations we are always told to bring god to protect you, but leave his voice at the door because you are going to have to do some crazy shit sometimes.
no, definitely not.
No. Could you please site your reference to why you think it would be a lie, book, chapter & verse?
nothing makes lying right.
In the Old Testament Rahab the prostitute lied to protect the spies from the soldiers who came to kill them. The spies kept their promise and protected her and she left prostituion and went on to become a honorable woman. Joshua chapter 2.
So I would say no.
No, not to save the life of another.
No.
No.
I believe that it depends on what your heart is on. Are you doing it for good, or are you doing it for evil?
Lying would be the right thing to do in that situation. Didn’t Rahab lie to protect the Israelite spies?
It would be a sin, but I feel that God would be just in His judgment of that sin. I would rather tell one lie than be responsible for the death of ANYONE.
Sounds like something a Pharisee would ask.
lying is a sin, even in this situation, But I would still lie..
i’m not really sure lying is a sin. that sounds dumb, but in the ten commandments it actually says that “bearing false witness about your neighbor” [something along those lines, its not a direct quote] is wrong, not just lying about whatever…so i’m not sure.
* not sure ALL lying is a sin.
Okay, check it out, Dan.
Rahab lied to protect the Jewish spies in the book of Joshua and was rewarded for it. Here is my personal ethic on lying:
If you lie for a selfish reason, it’s a sin. A.K.A. lying to get out of trouble for something you shouldn’t have done in the first place. If you lie to preserve life, either your owns or anothers, it is not a sin.
I realize there may still be loopholes there, but basically if you’re lying to cover up sin, it’s a sin to lie. Make sense?
Read the Martyrs Mirror.
yes and no. no or yes
yes
Uh, for the greater good of mankind, lying is acceptable! Like Asimov’s laws of robotics.
…of course not.
I don’t understand why this is a question?
Anyone who would feel bad about saving lives by telling a lie has their priorities screwed the fuck up. What, you think your god would rather you be responsible for the deaths of good men? I’d get the hell out of that religion ASAP.
Yes it is a sin – but sins can be forgiven!
*HUGS*
in the military they tell you not to lie as a pow. at the same time you are forbidden to give away your troops position. the only information you are allowed to give is your name, rank and ssn. I don’t remember the exact rules, but that’s pretty much it. the reason they don’t want you to lie is so that you don’t get caught in the situation. if you fabricate anything in a stressful situation then you may be caught.
The Ten Commandments doesn’t say “Thou Shalt Not Lie,” it says “Thou Shalt Not False Witness” or something.
No. Lying’s not a sin.
hell no
in that situation the best thing u can do is lie ur ass of
NO
it would depend on the type of questions they asked. If they said that I would have to renounce Jesus and Christianity, or die, I am not allowed to do that, but in some situations it is ok to”lie”(even the moslems do it,).
Is this a serious question?
Morality isn’t even an issue in that matter. You do what you have to do. What kind of (sane) god would reprimand you for saving the lives of several people by merely lying?
Probably.
Psychological mindgame time!