April 27, 2010
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Requiring Preabortion Ultrasounds
Politicians in Oklahoma believe a woman should be required to have an ultrasound before she has an abortion.
Women will have to have an ultrasound and a “detailed description of the fetus before getting an abortion.” Here is the link: Link Women are less likely to actually get an abortion if they have an ultrasound.
Do you think a woman should be required to have an ultrasound before she is allowed to have an abortion?
Comments (184)
Yesssssssssss, because abortion is murder.
i think she should be given the choice.
No.
It’s I’m pro choice, and proud of it. Women should be given a choice for the ultrasound, but it should not be required. What is it, a scare tactic? A guilt trip?
Just, no.
@chaospet - I compleatly agree.
Nope.
Yes, yes, yes, yes. If the woman is so sure of it, then she won’t mind seeing the tiny little bugger in her belly.
I’d like to know why they want ultrasounds before an abortion. Not to use for arguement, but for curiosity’s sake. And, I’ll stick with my usual response, it should be the mother’s choice.
no. abortions, if they are going to be done, should be done in the first trimester. what’s the point of an ultrasound and who would pay. etc. etc. etc. I mean I glanced at the link but it really didn’t make much sense to me
I think it should definately be suggested and discounted, but requiring it be done doesn’t seem appropriate. Personally I would prefer it, but dont think it would happen.
If they can justify it as something more than a last-pitch guilt trip, then yes. Otherwise it’s just…well, a last-pitch guilt trip.
@chrissiibear - Agreed.
@interludeB - It is up to the doctor if an ultrasound is necessary for health purposes. This is not something that should be legislated.
I don’t believe abortion should be legal at all.
But I think that, because they refuse to ban it, a person should be required to be completely informed about their choice. That includes an ultrasound. Women will refuse on the grounds that they won’t be able to do it if they see the baby itself, possibly moving around.
Do you know WHY they won’t be able to? Because then they feel guilty because they KNOW it’s alive!!! If they can realize beforehand that they won’t be able to go through with it, you’d think they’d acknowledge it’s life and not kill it in the first place.
@smoking_snakes - my guess would be that they want to try to guilt trip the girl in need of the abortion, by trying to show her pictures, but, I seriously doubt it would make one bit of difference and I think it’s a little cruel to the girls who is going thru enough hell anyway
she should be given a choice. nothing should be forced.
@irishluck20 - couldn’t have put it better myself.
it’s aliiiiiiiiiiiiive!
Well, they have to make sure the woman is pregnant. Hard to have an abortion otherwise.
harsh. i think an ultrasound would have definitely changed my mind if i had been planning to abort. having an ultrasound makes it so…real. i think its kind of cruel but maybe an eye opener. idk. i’m torn on the idea.
Yes, if a doctor is going to go inside a womans uterus much higher than he can see with a specula as in the case of an abortion he should definately do an ultrasound to be sure that everything inside is going along normally and that there are no complications or abnormalities that could put the mothers life at risk. It’s just good medical care to take care of the whole woman not just the eliminate the pregnancy.
@interludeB - thank you
@And_I_love - if you don’t think it would change a thing, then what’s the harm in making an ultrasound required? …. perhaps because it COULD change something?
I think it’s always a good idea to be fully informed before undergoing any medical procedure.
I think they should have to write a 50-page dissertation on their reasons behind getting the abortion, fill out a lengthy form, and get it notarized. That’ll stop those cookey liberals.
@tsh44 - good point. wish i would have thought of that before i went blabbing.
I’m not exactly pro-choice, but I feel like this is a cheap tactic. If she’s going to have an abortion, the government shouldn’t guilt her out of it. Let the woman move on.
@And_I_love - Unless you have a uterine cyst which the doctor didn’t know about and thus accidently ruptures causing severe scarring and bleeding which then sends you to the hospital for emergency surgery and you all of a sudden at 18 years old realize you can now never have a child of your own. This happened to someone I know and love. I think an ultrasound done afterwards to check for tissue that wasn’t properly removed would also be good. an internal ultrasound device is so simple to use that it’s ridiculous not to be sure that things are OK both before and after a procedure. They can always turn off the audio and turn the screen so that the patient doesn’t see it.
If we could show them their child twenty years from that point, give them a chance to see the personality of their child and teh person they could potentially be, I think that should be a requirement.
@OurUnspokenTrust - I like the way you think.
@irishluck20 - I have a close friend who can never have a child of her own because of a simple problem that would have been easily seen on an ultrasound but instead created a disaster abortion.
I think they should, but really only for the Dr.s to make sure nothing is wrong or different before going in.
Makes medical sense to me, but I’m no Dr.
@tsh44 - I’m really sorry to hear that. Fortunately for your friend, there’s adoption! She can adopt a child who’s mother chose not to abort, even though she could not take care of it. But really, that still does suck that she can’t have her own children.
No, this poses an undue burden to the female. And in the supreme court ruling, it says that there can be no “undue burden or obstacles” in a womans way to get an abortion.
@irishluck20 - The super plus side – all those stupid bullshit papers you had to write in high school and college – totally have a point now if you can’t keep your legs closed. Of course most of the women who get abortions are in high school/college… damnit.
I don’t see it as a problem to allow people to think twice about what they are doing to a living human being.
wtf?
This is stupid and demeaning.
No. -_-
…most women DO get ultrasounds, they just have a choice whether or not to view it. It’s bad medicine to just NOT do an ultrasound – you need to see if it’s ectopic, see if you have a hormone producing tumor mimicking pregnancy, etc. So some commenters – THAT isn’t the issue. It’s whether or not the woman has to see it.
I don’t personally think so. I think in many cases it would change minds and yes, that would be a wonderful thing…but what about the severe cases? Why traumatize women who are already in heartbreaking situations? Since that’s not really something you can legislate, I’d rather it remain optional. But the DOCTOR should always see/do the ultrasound…unless you’re in a really sketchy place. I know women who have had abortions, and all were ultrasounded, but they had the choice to look or not look.
@irishluck20 - She can’t adopt either or at least right now she can’t they don’t have the resources. Maybe someday.
You see your X-rays before you have your wisdom teeth removed, but of COURSE you shouldn’t get to see your baby before you have her/him removed.
How could a real ultrasound be a scare tactic?
The abortion lobby will, of course, prevent this from happening. Womenkind’s barbarous and uneducated “choices” keep the cash rolling in.
@saintvi - I think it’s always a good idea to be fully informed before undergoing any medical procedure.
The New Mexico legislator just past a new bill: A woman must successfully juggle three bags of silicone before getting breat implants.
And in California, patients must succesfully past a biochemistry test before recieving chemotherapy.
Women are less likely to have an abortion when they are shown that they are murdering a living child? SHOCKING!
Who’s paying for these ultrasounds?
yes just a simple yes
@saintvi - I completely agree with you.
I have had several ultrasounds unrelated to pregnancy and it is a common medical procedure. It has nothing to do with guilt tripping and everything to do with being informed about what is happening with your own body. If you are going to go through a major medical procedure, please educate yourself about the process, side effects, etc.
As far as I know most women DO have ultrasounds before an abortion. If you want one, you’re going to do it whether or not you see it first.
Even if getting an ultrasound is required (for health purposes), I think looking at the ultrasound should be up to the mother.
@irishluck20 - Of course she’ll mind seeing it. But sometimes an abortion is inevitable, and seeing an ultrasound will only make it harder for her.
I am pro life, but this came to mind… so basically OK is saying let’s have the woman have an ultra sound and basically guilt her to carrying the child? I know it doesn’t make sense Dan, but it makes me wonder what if she was raped? What if she doesn’t want the child (which is heartbreaking). Should it be her decision?
I know this doesn’t make sense coming from a pro lifer, but it makes me VERY curious! Thoughts?
they should choose if they want to see it or not
Maybe just so they know what they are really going into.
an ultrasound is already used before an abortion for several reasons: to be able to see where the fetus is located in the uterus, what age it is, if there is really a baby in the uterus. A nd this takes place in front of the woman before even going near the abortive apparatus.
@irishluck20 - exactly what im thinking
@ImperialDoctrinesOfTheNewWorld - It displeases me how wasteful the doctors at abortion clinics really are. They just throw away the stem cells. Why, if only they ground up the fetuses perhaps we could cure aging, and thus our vanity could live forever. Oh what a barbaric time we live in, and here I imagined that the dark ages were over.
-Jacques Duclo
@chrissiibear - Indeed. your spirit is tres forte mon fille. Challenge the male oppressors. I look forward to it.
I had two ultrasounds before my abortion, just to make sure nothing weird was going on (ectopic pregnancy, etc.) and so they could determine how far along I was. I don’t think it’s a terrible idea, I felt it was all for my safety, not some agenda. I still ended up getting the abortion.
Required? No. But I wouldn’t be against perhaps an offer of one.
Yup. I think its an awesome law. What woman can truly make an “informed choice” if she doesn’t see what’s she’s aborting??
Required? No. Not unless there is some medical reason, like if what tsh44 said is true.
such bullshit.
It’s just another way to stall women’s access to the procedure, and force them to incurr even more costs. Ultrasounds aren’t cheap. Let’s force poor people to have children because they can’t afford a couple extra hundred bucks.
This stuff just pisses me off.
Not unless they can offer some sort of sound medical reason why such a thing should be required. I’d be ok if it was offered as a choice rather than a requirement though. I like choices.
yes
I just think abortion is so wrong.
@The44thHour - I would agree.
Choice.
yes. Then they can stop denying that it’s actually a living thing.
Yep. Make the bitches see what they’re killin.
I think abortion should be illegal.
NO.
@iheartemo26 - Everything you disagree with should be illegal, right? Pfft. Mind your own goddamned business and leave everyone else alone, will ya?
You want to add to the guilt? Holy fuck. People don’t do abortions cause they forgot to wear a condom, okay? USUALLY it’s for worse scenarios than that, and there’s a lot of guilt accompanying it. I myself would not have an abortion but I think it’s horrible to do that to someone who has made the difficult choice of having one.
They require it in pennsylvania, I’m pretty sure. If the baby is in the fallopian tube and they get a medical abortion, it can actually kill the woman.
Ultrasound should be done for dating purposes only–to verify the person is in the first trimester. It is wrong to make the person listen to a detailed report of it; they should be given the option but allowed to say no they don’t want to know the report. They are already making a very difficult decision. That’s the medical/nursing side of me talking. The Christian side of me talking wants to say that if it will give more life, then yes, but then I would wonder about the quality of life that the parent could give the child if she wasn’t fully committed to being a parent for whatever reason (incest, rape, or just not having the emotional or financial support).
I don’t see why not; it’s not hurting anything to get an ultrasound. The only outcome is that the woman will be more informed about the decision she’s making. You’d want to know as much as possible undergoing any kind of medical procedure.
And anyway, abortion is a really serious thing. It shouldn’t be a decision that anyone can blindly make without thinking it through. It’s only right that a woman know exactly what she’s doing before she goes ahead with it.
Dear Dan,
I don’t think an ultrasound should be “required” for somebody contemplating an abortion. I also think that if a woman decides to abort, it should be done early in the first trimester, but ultimately, it should be up to the woman having the abortion.
XXXXXXOff SubjectXXXXX
I thought about you as soon as I saw this article LINK this morning. First I thought about my tax dollars being spent on a needless research project, but it was in England. I’d love to see what the “last word Xangans” have to say about the results of the study.
Michael F. Nyiri, poet, philosopher, fool
nope.
I think once they’ve made the decision I don’t think an ultrasound will change their minds…
I think theres lots of reasons why girls make that decision & its theirs. We shouldn’t judge.
Yes. Plus if a women is really truly planning on going through with an abortion the ultrasound won’t change anything.
Yes, most definitely. If women are going to be allowed to make a choice, they should be as informed as possible, which includes seeing what it is you are removing. If you had cancer and they were taking a tumor out, you would see the images of that. If a woman is truly fine with her decision to have an abortion, knowing that it is her child she is killing, she should have no problem seeing that child and hearing its heartbeat before she kills it. It’s not a scare tactic, it’s a fact.
Why are “pro-choicers” against it? Because they know that the more informed a woman is about her baby, the less likely she’ll go through with an abortion. So in their eyes it’s better to keep women ignorant. The abortion industry has profits to keep up, after all.
I bet the same people who think this is a good idea would get really pissed off if tobacco products were required to have pictures of diseased lungs, mouths, etc. on them. Or if alcohol bottles had pictures of diseased livers.
@ShimmerBodyCream - Said what I was thinking.
Yes.
@randomneuralfirings - hahahahaha, good one. XD Next time add a smiley or something though, some people might think you’re serious.
@XbabyK - I agree.
@MyJudas - Hmmm… I disagree with that blanket statement. People should not be ignorant to the possibility of something. Whether that be lung cancer or a baby… Ignorance is not, after all, necessarily bliss.
@irishluck20 - Totally agree with you.
It’s a huge, difficult decision and a very important, life changing one. I feel that like any major decision a person should be informed on what they may be getting or missing out on…and to me this is not a bad idea at all. However the requirement part I’m a bit leery of. I would hope that it wouldn’t lead to back alley type abortion doctor’s that didn’t require the u/s.
I highly doubt it will change the mother’s mind. They are being to discriminating with this, too. Are they going to force women who HAVE to get abortions for health reasons to have an ultrasound? Nothing like rubbing salt in a wound.
there are circumstances where the abortion is required for health purposes…i think that it shouldnt be required if the abortion is required. if this pregnacy was due to the girl not knowing how to keep her legs closed, then i feel that they should…i mean why not?
although im prochoice. in the fact that 1.when she has the baby it’ll ruin her life 2.if she puts it up for adoption, it’ll not get the chance to experience life as it was meant to 3.if they allow the death penalty they should allow this
@tsh44 - Completely agreed.
If a mother is making a decision such as this, she needs to know the details and truths of either decision. Most women know what keeping the pregnancy results in: an infant, which she can either keep and raise or give up for adoption, a healthy alternative that also includes a bittersweet heartbreak, but doesn’t involve guilt. For the choice of abortion, most women aren’t informed enough of what will ensue. They need to know it’s a baby from the start and looks like a baby from very early on, usually by the time a mother realizes she is with child. No longer would abortion providers be able to sugar-coat it saying it’s like a fish and not a baby yet, let her see for herself. If she can live with killing it, then at least she’s making a choice based on all the knowledge she could have, not just a fear and hiding from those facts. Maybe this will at least have her take the time to consider her decision more carefully, instead of just a way to flippantly “nip it in the bud” and move on like nothing happened (because, lets be honest, no one is really able to do that after an abortion). They also need to be recommended counseling afterward, because it’s a pretty traumatic experience.
@And_I_love - You questioned who would pay for those ultrasounds? I say that if they are required, and are the same price as what abortion used to be, then the consumer. If it became part of the abortion procedure, then I’m pretty sure it would be included in what the taxpayer is already paying for. In full perspective, it’s my understanding that thanks to this health reform abortions are now free and paid for by the taxpayer (those that agree with choice and those that don’t). I think that it needs to be included as part of that procedure for the safety of the mother and for the responsibility of a decision of that magnitude to not lie on ignorance, but on a well informed woman.
Personally, I also think that scrapeing layers of a womans uterus away to the point that you’ll be able to see the marks if you look inside years later could be any good to a womans health.
No if she is required to pay for it as well.
It’s not murder if it doesn’t have a brain.
In the case of this being a medical procedure, yes I think it’s a good idea. I think the woman should be as informed as possible before she makes that decision. And what if that was what she needed to change her mind? Hm.
Well here in Canada they need to do an ultra sound. I would think they would have to do one any where to see how far along she is. The doctor kind of needs the ultrasound to know how to do what he’s going to do.
It is not fun, but the whole ordeal is not fun either.
Sure. Why not? An ultrasound is info. Getting the info before jumping into it is a good idea.
My fear of this is that; “like many other acts of greed” if there is no sound medical reason for performing ultrasounds, before abortions; ” performing them for this reason” will only increase, the cost of medical insurance and monetary profits, for doctors who perform them. Let’s be honest, the majority of doctors, who perform abortions, are not concerned with whether or not the patient wants to keep the unborn fetus. After all, if 50% of the women on abortion tables, change their minds about their abortion mid stream, many doctors who perform abortions for a living, would be forced to close their doors or down size!
@ImperialDoctrinesOfTheNewWorld - Agreed.
No,that’s stupid.
I do not see why not, a women should be fully informed before making such a decision
Yeah. Why not? I assume she’ll get it free if it’s required, it’s not going to hurt her or take up too much time, so I don’t see why not.
Suggested? Yes. Required? No.
It’s just an attempt to pull at your heartstrings to make you change your mind. I believe that abortion should be Pro-Choice. The decision of getting an abortion is already hard enough on the mother, why make it even worse for her?
@scrambledmegsntoast - i know, what’s wrong with some people.
@caromonster - what makes it inevitable? this assumes there is NO OTHER WAY and well, since we are calling it a choice, there must be another way, or there wouldnt be a choice.
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unrelated to my responses above, no. i believe that the only people the women should be allowed, or required to listen to are the people telling her how she cant raise a child because of her race, religion, income, education level, etc etc and those that tell her how hard it will be and how horrible life will be for her and her child should she make the foolish decision to give birth. at no point should she be encouraged to think of this growth as a precious life growing within her or given so much as a glimmer of hope that even when things get hard that all her efforts will be worth it to have that relationship with her child. never should she be given the option of providing her child a loving home or providing a child to a couple that desperately wants to adopt and can have no children of her own. the woman MUST be made to know that her only value lies in what she does on her back and that this can not under any circumstances be interupted or halted by childbearing or being a mother. after all, the only value in life is comfort and pleasure, and if she cant have/provide that, then what good is she? no, she should never be incouraged to keep this inhibiting factor.
yes. an informed choice is a better choice. but they ALWAYS do an ultrasound before an abortion… so what are we requiring again?
JA ITS COMMON TO DO THAT (WHERE IM FROM), BUT ITS FOR THE POSITION/AGE/CONFIRM PREGNANCY…NOT TO CONVINCE A POOR GIRL SHE SHOULD BE GUILTED INTO SOMETHING SHE DOESNT WANT. IF A WOMAN WANTS AN ABORTION SHE SHOULD BE ENTITLED TO GET IT W/O ALL THE BLEEDING-HEART BULLSHIT….GO TO AN ORPHANAGE IN UKRAINE OR CZECH REPUBLIC UND THEN TELL ME ABORTION IS CRUEL…ABORTION IS NECESSARY HOWEVER UNPOPULAR.
i don’t believe in abortion at all, but since it is still legal, yes, they should. i also believe any woman who wishes to have an abortion for reasons other than those that are life-threatening should be made to go through a process in which she watches abortions be performed and talks to women who have regretted their abortions AND those who have been happy with them. i think she should also be made aware of the option of adoption, and what a blessing her baby could be to another family longing for a baby.
sorry for the tangent, just thought i’d expand.
@MyJudas - i actually think that’s a great idea.
@soyeahthatswhathappened - It already can take weeks from finding out you’re pregnant to the point when you can actually get the abortion. Is the real goal to make it take even longer?
Also, IMHO, I find adoption to be kind of a stupid at this point. Most babies never get adopted. They end up in the system until 18. Then they tend to end up in prison or on the streets. That’s if they even make it to 18. And even when they get adopted, it’s not as wonderful and perfect as people seem to think. They get to live their whole lives wondering what’s so wrong with them their own parents didn’t want them.
@MyJudas - the goal is to get women to be as educated as possible about both sides before they do something they may regret, just as you should be before any potentially life-changing decision.
and you are aware you can hand-pick your child’s family nowadays, yes? that way they don’t end up in such a horrible situation. granted, it still may not be as perfect as having your real parents in the picture, but i know personally i would sleep better at night knowing my child was with a family who loves them, rather than living with the guilt for the rest of my life that i killed them.
I thought women had ultrasounds before anyway, for the medical professionals benefit.
@soyeahthatswhathappened - A picture of a fetus is not useful information. It’s an obvious ploy, an attempt to take advantage of a woman, not inform her. After all, why should it matter what the fetus looks like? If education was the real concern, every pregnant women would be required to learn about all of the negative possibilities in pregnancy and childbirth. After all, she needs to make an informed decision. Doctors should be required to tell her that abortion is statistically much safer than pregnancy and childbirth.
And that’s if you can find a family. There are far more babies than families in the world.
@MyJudas - women SHOULD be educated about the dangers of pregnancy and childbirth. they should also be educated on how to make it as easy and comfortable as possible and how to make those dangers as few as possible.
@soyeahthatswhathappened - We’re in agreement on that, then. But a picture of a fetus is just not education. This stuff is just pro-lifers hoping that women will go “oh! my fetus is so cute! i guess i’ll keep it after all!” if they’re forced to look at an ultrasound.
http://lusciousddja.xanga.com/726192967/womens-rights/ HERES WHAT I THINK
@MyJudas - yeah, it probably is. i don’t have a problem with that per se but i don’t think they should be surprised if their efforts are in vain.
eh, after about 5 minutes of posting i realized this was a pointless entry. if you haven’t, read what @radicalsounds has to say and you’ll see why.
Before killing someone they should be given a chance to change their mind? Wow, what a concept!
*too militantly against abortion to make a nice comment*
Maybe if they thought there were going to be complications with the abortion?
I’ve read and seen in news that pre-abortion ultrasounds made the mother change her mind and have the baby after seeing it in the ultrasound. But this law is kind of dumb.
no, i don’t think it should be required.
it is the woman’s choice if she wants to abort and a woman’s choice if she would like an ultrasound.
personally if i was getting an abortion it would not bother me to get an ultrasound. i would still abort.
if someone giving you hard proof you have a baby in ur tummy and you think that you just cannot get rid of it, then it probably means you’ll probably make a good mother.
Also… this actually helsp the woman to feel less regret. clarity in judgement?
In many countries, it is already a legislation to have an ultrasound anyways. this isn’t new at all.
@ImperialDoctrinesOfTheNewWorld - better than putting a human being through 70 maybe even 80 years of hardship knowing their mothers either didn’t want them born.. neglected them.. let them run free and bounce around in a foster program. I hate it when people call it murder. its not.
@lusciousddja - just by what you said.. i wanna make you my new friend!!!!! agree 100%
NO. She should be able to do what she wants! This idea of ultrasound before abortion is like forcing a mom to see her baby befpre she gives it up for adoption. Some mothers do not want to see their baby, in order for them to not change their minds and become attached.
I think so I think that if your gonna terminate a baby you should have to see what youre giving up plus some girls might even change their mind and realize its the best decision they ever made
@lusciousddja - THANK YOU. You have a good brain in your head
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I thought you needed one anyway to check how far along the baby is before a decision could be made? Maybe I was mistaken.
I think they should have one because too many (I think) make a rash decision to get it done & many women (including Jane Roe) said they regretted it afterwards. Sometimes seeing the baby as a person helps make a choice easier. There are agencies out there that help pregnant women who want to give up their babies for adoption & cover the cost of pre & post natal visits. I would rather they try this before abortion but in the end, it’s the woman’s choice.
@chaospet - I was going to comment on here but you basically said exactly what I was thinking
I’ve gotten an abortion before & they required me to get an ultrasound. They didn’t show me the screen or anything, they just needed to see how far along I was. I heard that sometimes they ask if you want to know if it’s twins or not..
So let’s see… we’re bitching about the cost of health care and we want to require a procedure that may or may not be necessary?? They charged $800 when I needed an ultrasound of my gallbladder… A doctor can decide if it’s medically necessary. If it’s not medically necessary it’s a waste of money and time.
This, especially for those without insurance, can make it too expensive and out of reach for low income women. If these women can’t afford that many will find other means to have the procedure done and it will be a lot less safe. When politicians attack women’s reproductive rights there are women who die. They die because they go and get unsafe procedures done because they do not have access to a safe means to have it done.
This has to be about the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. I personally believe that every situation is different and “you” (or maybe we), whether you are pro-life or pro-choice, should not judge before you are familiar with the situation. Those politicians have no idea what some of those potential mothers are going through and they have absolutely no right to make what is already a very painful decision even more painful.
Absolutely. Everyone involved should see the life they made before they kill it.
Sounds like a way to manipulate someone already in a fragile situation.
That is a great idea; it would help her to more thoroughly understand the decision she’s making.
@the_rocking_of_socks - I totally agree.
@eomona - Agreed. But it should not be forced.
I myself am fully against abortion but,I do believe every woman has a choice. Seeing the life inside of her in an ultrasound may convince her against the abortion but, for arguments sake- she goes through the pregnancy and chooses to keep the baby whom she throws in the trash- then what? it should be optional and not forced- this is some antiabortion bs- everyone has a choice and its hard enough on a woman- she shouldn’t eb forced to rethink it because the state or anyone else says so.
“The intent of the bill is to prevent parents from later suing doctors who withhold information to try to influence them against having an abortion.”
It is now legal for doctors to LIE to their patients about birth defects in order to sway their decision. Disgusting.
@OurUnspokenTrust - Your opinion is that of someone who will never understand what it is like to be pregnant. How dare you even speak that way about something you have never and will never face. This is a woman’s issue, not a man’s.
@soyeahthatswhathappened - You do know that there are plenty of women who do not regret getting abortions? I can link you to a site dedicated to just that.
definately
@sexliesandcoffee - yes, which is why i said that women thinking of getting an abortion should be required to speak both with women who regretted their abortions and women who did not.
@soyeahthatswhathappened - I don’t really think they should be required to speak to anyone. It’s the woman’s choice to have an abortion, not someone else’s opinion or someone’s experience. It wouldn’t change my mind if I were to get an abortion. I would just do it because I don’t want to bring something into the world that isn’t going to get the proper love and attention it needs.
@sexliesandcoffee - well, i do. as i said before, i think women should be as educated as possible about both sides before making such a major decision.
@soyeahthatswhathappened - Educated? Yes, absolutely. Berated by pro lifers? Hell no. As if some women don’t feel guilty enough about an abortion. 9 times out of 10, abortion is for the best.
Maybe we should be responsible and think ahead and not use abortion a means to be irresponsible. If you don’t want to have a child then either don’t have sex or be protect yourself. I am pro choice. I have the right to responsible or not. I choose to take responsibility for my actions and the consequences that occur with with those choices both positive and negative.
@sexliesandcoffee - Well considering I am part of the process of child birth (last time I checked chicks need my spermies to make teh babies) I do have a say in the issue. How about we talk about if the mother doesn’t want the child she gets all the say in whether or not to keep the child. How fucked up is that? Google sarcasm – it might help you stop being a anal-retentive bitch in life.
@tsh44 - This is quite true…. but frankly nobody believes that the Oklahoma legislators’ efforts here involve concern for the health and safety of the pregnant woman. Pre-abortion ultrasounds used for reasons involving safety during the surgical procedure is a no-brainer for any competent medical practitioner and should be performed regardless of the law. This law before the state congress in Oklahoma solely involves emotional manipulation and the deliberate fostering of mental stress for pregnant women…. not making a procedure mandatory for the additional safety of patients.
BTW, the photo accompanying this article is misleading. Abortions are almost never performed at a stage where the pregnancy is visible. In fact, less than five percent of all abortions are performed past the first trimester. Abortions performed past the first twelve weeks of pregnancy are, tragically, almost always given to women who WANT to keep their babies but cannot due to serious complications in fetal development or health. Pre-Eclampsia (the appearance of usually fatal brain lesions in the fetus), abnormal vascular or digestive development resulting in missing heart chambers or entire lengths of intestine and other such tragic medical occurences that guarantee a neonate less than two days of (horrible, painful) life outside the womb force many women to seek abortions even in the late stages of pregnancy. Unfortunately, even if the fetus is doomed, many clinics refuse to give expecting mothers abortions simply because the public stigma associated with the word makes doctors nervous (as well they should be, considering the threat, harassment and homicide rate among practitioners who perform abortions).
I will finish this post, by the way, by merely enquiring about the gender ratios found in the Oklahoma state legislature. How many of the lawmakers are women? Just curious.
@phoebester - Frankly I try to stay out of the whole “high drama” part of it. The truth is that abortions would be safer for women if ultrasounds were performed both before and after. Those things cost money and the outpatient clinics who do abortions around here are not going to buy the equipment and train the staff to use them if they don’t have to. I attend an inner city church and work with inner city youth I know first hand as well what happens in an abortion procedure. In my personal experience very few people from either side or even the doctors are actually concerned with the young women involved. It’s all about them “winning” an argument or making money. Many of these girls are too young to be sexually involved in the first place yet no counseling is really ever offered to help them get out of abusive situations. The “counseling” they get basically includes a hand out sheet that is read to them and they must sign at the abortion clinic. They are not tested for even the most basic STD’s or infections either unless they pay extra. Thankfully they are now at least being offered a free aids test. They are generally either given their first RX for birth control at the clinic or they are referred to a state run clinic for future help. Most of the girls never go. Most get no follow up whatsoever. It is reality where I am, it’s how things go and it stinks. Sure the abortion clinics we have now are better than the backalley methods we used to have but they are still not making these young women their primary concern. Their primary concern is still money and it makes me sick. We need laws to force doctors to really care for and be responsible for the health of these young women. I don’t really care what the “agenda” is of the people who help to get laws passed that will help these girls just so we keep moving forward to make the system better for them. Yes, I’m a Christian and I believe that little lump of parasitic tissue is a human life and I hate the idea of a baby dying but I also believe that every baby who dies goes to heaven. Therefore for me, right now, these young women are my top concern.
Yes, because someday they just might realize it wasn’t just a “bunch of tissue” they had surgically removed. It was a baby- and with the ultrasound they will figure it out then and be without regrets that they might have changed their mind
@chaospet - You said it better than anyone else.
@OurUnspokenTrust - Forgive me for wishing to jump into a debate when there is already plenty of blood in the water but I must speak.
Yes “spermies” are needed for babies, but ONLY spermies are needed for babies. There is nothing physically bonded to a man’s body if he is pregnant…. and consequently nothing to keep him from running away if any activity of his results in a pregnancy. Please look at the statistics involving heterosexual relationships. 50% of all marriages in the US result in divorce…. and the rate of seperation among unmarried couples is much higher. If a man’s consent is required for an abortion then what of the (many, many, many) women in this world who find themselves high and dry and pregnant with no way to contact the biological father except a phone number (that he no longer answers), an e-mail address (that he no longer responds to) and maybe a vague idea of his residence (which is useless because his roommate says that he’s out of town and doesn’t know when he’ll be back anyway)?
This happens often enough in the US, and far, far, far more often in developing nations like Mongolia. In Mongolia women- because of their lower economic status- are often taken advantage of by traveling businessmen from Korea, Russia, Japan and China. These men have their fun away from the knowledge of their families. They seduce girls into bed with vague promises of perhaps a richer life away from the dusty steppe of central Asia. Inevitably these men then go back to their “real” lives after business is concluded leaving nothing behind but a broken heart and a two-week-old embryo…. and G-d help the poor girl if she should try to contact the man once he has left the country. This is why abortion is legal and unstigmatized in Mongolia (as it should be, needless to say) and why any Mongolian will greet the idea of a man’s consent being necessary for an abortion with a massive amount of laughter (as it should be, needless to say).
The fact remains that women get lied to. Men run away and women don’t really blame them because we want to run away too. We can’t, however, because we are unwillingly bound to what is inside of us. That is why women must have total control over their bodies. If we don’t, we’ll take control anyway like back in the sixties where women drank lye, gave themselves chemical douches or sometimes simply took a long piece of wire to themselves in hopes of ending a pregnancy. If they were lucky, they would merely end up infertile. If they were unlucky, they would hemorrhage to death.
And yeah, we’ll be damned if we’re going back there again.
@tsh44 - Yeah, I suppose the result – regardless of intention- is the important thing
Thanks for replying. I had no idea that the current situation for women in this position was so bad.
@phoebester - The biggest problem I see is that the standard of care isn’t the same everywhere. That’s why on every discussion like this you have so many radically different stories of abortion experiences. It isn’t that anyone is lying persay it’s that clinics vary so widely on standard of care. If a young woman has insurance and goes to a private physician she gets top notch care. If she’s inner city or rural and has no money and doesn’t want her folks to know she goes to a clinic that is pretty much just offering what they legally have to and their are variations on the theme from worst to best. If we get some laws in place at a federal level by whatever means required we can make all clinics follow uniform procedures.
@sexliesandcoffee - sounds like you’re trying to convince yourself more than anyone else. you know, i had a dear friend who had multiple abortions, both times due to rape. now, had i known her when it happened, i would have encouraged her against it. berated her? never, and frankly anyone who did would have had to answer to me. but no matter what i would have been there for her. she lost her last child, again the product of rape, but the fact of the matter is, she chose not to abort that time around. i dont know why you wouldnt love your child or why you assume no one else would, but that’s simply not the case.
wtf.
No.
Just…
no.
Edit…to add…pro-life groups already try and guilt people into keeping their parasites, now there might be government mandated guilt trips? That’s fucking retarded (like half the babies born would be if there were no abortions). Women who get abortions already get crap thrown in their face about what their fetus might look like and how it has developed without needing this. It’s bullshit. Legislated bullshit (you know, like 99% of laws passed in the last few years).
Besides, why do we need more kids in this insanely fucked up world? The Duggars are doing a good enough job breeding that everyone else can slack off on the pregnancy thing.
For the record: politically, I am Pro Choice. Personally, I feel that if the pregnancy does not personally jeopardize the health of the woman and child, but is only an unwanted child, adoption should be suggested – as there are perhaps billions of couples worldwide who would be more than eager to adopt and raise a child as their own.
I also know of special circumstances – one such circumstance that comes to mind was of a woman, truck driver, who was not only uninsured but could not afford to take time off…
Question: who would pay for her kid, and how would she support house, home, and child, as she was only an interstate driver for a fleet truck company – not an owner/operator? Road life is no life for a child, and neither is parental abandonment. She had the procedure performed well within the first trimester, and managed a more secure “pop ring” type tubal ligation ["...s'long as you're in there, Doc..."] to ensure sterility – but that’s her personal story – one story in millions, and getting me sidetracked.
So, yeah, though I don’t care for the procedure, I politically stand as Pro Choice. A child born in cases of rape or a pregnancy threatening the health and well-being or other concerns of either the mother or the fetus is a matter that must be decided by the biological mother.
Now that I got that out of the way: requiring an ultrasound could not only force the awareness of what is growing inside the woman, but also could illustrate that it is not, as some would choose to believe, “just a cluster of cells and tissues”.
Not only that, but requiring an ultrasound could determine if, in those U.S. regions where abortions are frowned upon, there is legitimate risk involved in the pregnancy.
Henry, who vetoed the measures Friday, has called the ultrasound
legislation flawed because it does not allow exemptions for victims of
rape and incest. The Center for Reproductive Rights, a national abortion
rights group, calls it among the strictest anti-abortion measures in
the nation.
Henry had a good point, but there’s a stronger point that needs to be considered: surgery is – and always has been – a procedure. Having direct access to knowing fetal positioning, placenta placement, and having the facts in hand well before the procedure would actually assist the medical practitioner in determining the best course of action to take - with the woman’s consent.
Determining which procedure for aborting the pregnancy to take…which surgical procedure would be the safest [there are four that I know of, from what research I have done - and I've done the dirty work of researching thoroughly] , cause the least amount of damage/scar tissue to the uterine wall, and have the lowest recovery time, given the options.
And, yes, there will be women who will change their minds about aborting the child – who will [theoretically] take the time to determine if there is suitable adoption agencies and post-partum counseling services available in the region. She will be more informed about what is about to take place, in her body, long before the events take place.
Regardless of the sociopolitical atmosphere surrounding this, it is the woman’s body, the woman’s mind, and the woman’s decision – as well it should be.
I believe she should also be well informed about what is to take place in her own body, don’t you think?
fuck that. it disgusts me to think of there being a baby inside me… I wouldn’t want to look at it, I would want it OUT.
@chaospet - Well said.
It is merely a psychological play to guilt people into thinking that it is wrong and blah blah blah.Sure it may be cruel. But it might as well tank your life along with it.Sometimes, certain things just happen.
@lonelywanderer2 - Along of people seem to be misinterpreting the point of this “ultrasound”.
I agree, it is good to check the health and all. But that is not the case and point they are trying to make.Its a subtle way of guilt-tripping people into not forgoing an abortion.
just like hte media rants about us gamers making kids violent.The check- up is in Parental teaching and bondings. Not the video games. (To some extent).
So in the sense that abortion rates may go down.Homeless kids with kids themselves will go up.Not everyone has people who can support such situations financially.
@aireeuh - That is very cold. @Rakusho - If you can’t face the reality that this IS an actual living being, you are not mature enough to be having sex, no matter what your age.
@lonelywanderer2 - True in point. I am not denying it is. But thats simply what a lot of people think.
Truth be told. As they say.Keep it safe.If you don’t, your simply asking for it.
@lonelywanderer2 - I guess I can see how you would think of it that way, but imagine any other icky parasite living inside you. then imagine the doctors forcing you to look at said parasite crawling around in your innards and trying to make you feel like an asshole before they removed it. that’s BS.
@aireeuh - lol; okay; I have as twisted a sense of humor as anybody. I can understand what you are saying! No hard feelings, I hope.
@irishluck20 - I agree. The fact that she can adopt another child totally compensates for the fact that her uterus was totally screwed up by a botched abortion.
I don’t see what the big deal is. If a woman is unsure of an abortion to begin with, I don’t see any harm in convincing the woman to change her mind–if it’s as easy as getting her to see an ultrasound. I’m pro-choice and all but by no means am I a constant supporter of abortion. I hate seeing people throw that option around like it’s not a big deal and that it’s an everyday occurrence. Well, it shouldn’t be! It needs to be carefully thought out and only used in desperate situations such as rape or the mother’s health.
@ionekoa - You kind of took what I said and turned it into something else. All I was saying is that women who get abortions shouldn’t be required to see the fetus. This topic is extremely personal to me because when my mother was my age, 17, she was in an abusive relationship and became pregnant, but she aborted the fetus. To this day she says it is the best decision she could’ve made. I don’t think abortion should be the first thing you turn to without waying the options, but if the woman decides abortion is the best, than she should do so early on.
@OurUnspokenTrust - A bitch? I wasn’t a bitch to you. I was merely telling you that you will never have to experience having a child INSIDE YOU. You will never have to give BIRTH to child, therefore you shouldn’t have anything but support for the woman carrying a fetus and not try to force her to have something she doesn’t want. You should’ve read my comment thoroughly before dishing out some ignorant and misogynist comment.
@phoebester - Took the words right out of my mouth:)
@sexliesandcoffee - Very true. And you’ll never have the experience of having high levels of testosterone flowing through your body with two sperm filled balls. That doesn’t mean you can’t have an opinion about it. A child is a two-person responsibility – I could give a shit less who carries. Fathers make up half the genes, they should get half the say, not none. This is feminism at its worst.
@OurUnspokenTrust - It’s not feminism. It’s a medical fact that no man can become pregnant. A woman has to carry the child, not you or any man. The child has to grow inside of her, not you or any man. Is that so hard for you to understand? The fetus is inside the woman’s body, therefore she has the right to carry the child full term or abort.
Only if cancer patients are forced to endure an equally-lengthy information session and ultrasound of their tumours prior to getting them removed.
Also, to the ignoramus above thinking women don’t feel guilt about abortions, as if it’s a casual decision made akin to buying a new pair of shoes or an ice cream sundae, try flipping through a book on the subject. One I strongly recommend? Not An Easy Choice by Kathleen McDonnell.
They already do them before abortions. I don’t think it should be required by law for the purpose of trying to guilt women out of doing it. No one wants to have an abortion. I would certainly respect any woman’s decision not to have one, but I think this is a personal decision that applies to each woman in her own being, and it should not be pushed either way to do it or not to do it on any woman. I think the result of outlawing abortions would be devastating. I’m sure many women would be wonderful mothers, but there would be many that didn’t want the baby, weren’t ready to be a mother, etc, that would have babies and the children would have horrible lives. Many more people that would have to be supported by the government through poverty, fostering, etc.
Wouldn’t the abortion be enough punishment?
No. I imagine it’s a hard enough decision to make in the first place, the woman doesn’t need to be put on a forced guilt trip too. The whole detailed description of the fetus is just another tactic to talk her out of it.
If it were simply for the woman’s medical health, I would not have a problem with it.
@chaospet - amen.
for the record: pro-choice. but this is just sick and twisted. so how bout this. if you’re gonna shock and scare the poor girl half to death and make her go through with an unwanted pregnancy,why not take the child as a ward of the state. and then make the citizens pay taxes on it. maybe that’ll give you a clearer conscious then letting a woman choose her own fate and pay out of her own pocket. huh? god that’s just despicable. or just live with yourselves as she dies giving birth to the child your forced her to have!
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yeah, pro choice!
People should not be subject to rules or those silly “laws”!Its immoral! Women should be able do what ever they want.
But in all seriousness, I do think that a thorough medical examination should be required before an abortion, including and ultrasound. Regulations for medical procedures are necessary.
And I do support fetus rights!
@kandi_bunnie - In many controlled situations pregnancy is not as dangerous as cancer.
In non-life threatening pregnancies abortion is simply a life-style decision. Not a life-death situation.
I do not think it is an easy decision. Regardless an ultrasound is not only medical helpful, It helps give an understanding that a fetus is alive. Being aware of the third party (the child) can help women make an educated CHOICE.
no way. It does make it harder for someone to do that, but some people also need abortions for health problems. I don’t think anyone should make it harder for them. People can deal with consequences, it’s not like they’re carrying your baby. It’s their life.
Will the ultrasound help the woman’s life situation? Will it suddenly make her clean, if she is on drugs? Will it help her financially? Will it help the sperm donor change his mind about being involved? Will it take away all her past abuse and inability to raise a child correctly? Will it suddenly give her knowledge of appropriate child care even if she, herself has never experienced it? Will it give her and the baby support for the next 20 years?
@chrissiibear - If you’re feeling guilty, there’s obviously something wrong with what you’re doing.
So, yes.
@achemicalswirl - Let me rephrase then, TRY to make the girls feel guilty.
There is nothing wrong with abortion, it should be legal, and ultrasounds should NOT be required.
@chrissiibear - Why should we not make them feel guilty? Last I checked, murder was supposed to be illegal..
@achemicalswirl - Abortion is NOT murder.
Should a doctor be required to do an ultrasound and make sure everything is medically safe before performing an abortion? Yes, definitely.
Should a woman, who is already under enough emotional stress by having to make such a decision, be forced to sit through a “detailed explanation”, with visuals, about something she’s no doubt agonized over a million times already? Absolutely not.
This is like saying ‘before a woman is allowed to have an abortion, she must first create a nursery and sit in it listening to tapes of baby sounds, while someone flashes images of healthy infants and signs that say ‘mommy why did you kill me?’ in front of her’. It’s a form of emotional manipulation, preying on women who are most likely already emotionally and mentally distraught.
this is really tough, because the psychological damage done after seeing their baby and then getting an abortion would be tremendous. However, maybe it would help decrease the scores of women who have abortions and then regret them. Maybe it’ll help seperate the crowd
I had an abortion and they give an ultrasound before they do it I suppose to make sure everything looks normal.
You can ask them to not let you see the monitor or you can close your eyes its actually not a big deal.
I looked at it and I didnt feel guilty or regretful, I was just interested. It was shaped like one of those orange candy circus peanuts at that point, which was 10 weeks.
I am pro choice but I do not support abortions after the first trimester. Which is 12 weeks I believe. Because at that point I do believe it is actually a baby, and if you didnt want it you should have gotten off your ass.
@chrissiibear - ”murder: to kill intentionally and with premeditation”
no