August 29, 2006
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Prayer in School
A school in Missouri is being sued over school prayer. Apparently a teacher led prayer in two different school assemblies. The American Civil Liberties Union is helping with the case. Both prayers were described as Christian prayers.
The ACLU has claimed that the prayer can cause “‘irreparable harm’ to students who are ‘coerced’ into participating in ‘religious exercises.’”
When a teacher leads prayer in school, is “irreparable harm” done to the students?
Comments (247)
No
heck no…. second
most likely so.
And it is one of the worst double standards ever, nobody cares if people say Muslim prayers, or bring a Quaran to school. In some schools the Quaran is taught as “cultural studies”. And we must remember that tyranny never comes in a single step. If prayer and religion is taken out of school, how long can it be before it’s taken out of all public places? And after that, who’s to say that there won’t be a law banning all religious activities outside of your home? Please remember that there was always right to practice religion in U.S.S.R.
NO!
“Irreparable harm?” No.
No.
Another absolutely ridiculous case by the ACLU….good grief!
My father thinks so (honestly)…..
If prayer in school causes “irreparable harm” then my youngest daughter is damaged for sure. They pray many times a day in her school daily.
harm/ no. though they were possibly insulted…but who cares? he said a prayer! its not like he forced them into doing satanic rituals.gosh.
Absolutely not.
One more thing.
Were are the people on the other side of the argument. The people who say that irreparable harm is done to those people who are refused the right to practice religious things such as prayer. That side of the argument has as much clout as the ACLU’s. But that would never be reported by our liberal media. You obviously get your news somewhere other than FOX.
NOOOOOOOOOO
No. Highschool students in general are not nearly that impressionable. They’re more likely to be fiercely athiest than anything else, in my experience anyway. Hostilely so, in fact. I think that this is being blown out of proportion.
absolutely not… teaching kids that religion is shameful or dangerous does irreversible harm!
There was also a school in Missouri that had a HISTORY teacher teaching the children that Benjamin Franklin was a president because he was on the $100 bill. I guess that makes Alexander Hamilton a President of the United States too.
Seriously I’m going to pray at school because it is in my first amendment rights to do so. Do you think anyone would speak against people being Gay at school?
I think kids need prayer now more than ever. If the kids don’t believe in it then don’t say it. Simple.
Of course! She shouldhave opted for the next best thing…instead of leading prayer she should have lead them to a back room and molested them, now THAT is just temporary harm.
Of course not!
“Irreparable harm” is a legal standard. It is used in the granting of injunctions. If Jesus told his followers to not be like the Pharisees and pray in private, why are so many Christians so adamant about prayer in school?
You can pray anytime and any place. No one will stop you. Why must it be compelled that others pray along?
Forcing beliefs on others whether it is theistic beliefs or atheistic beliefs is just wrong.
definitely NOT!!!!!!
Oh please — not unless they have some medical condition that makes it “harmful” for them to close their eyes.
I am going to say NO. I child is raised with their own religon so whats the problem. Schools have prayer and pledge in texas we say pledge to the Texas flag.
i think that’s true.
i still feel as though i was coerced into the baptism i took in 5th grade. i feel guilt over that to this day, although it has faded to a cynical kind of remorse.
all i know is that back in “my” day when prayer was allowed, kids didn’t bring guns to school and they RESPECTED their elders …
No, because nowdays, kids bad mouth teachers and don’t listen anyhow.
Hardly irreperable harm… nowadays too many are hopped up on Ritalin or other derivative to even notice what’s going on outside of MTV.
Seperation of church and state… and the whole thing about having freedom to choose… yes, if don’t allow prayer it’s just as bad as mandatory participation in prayer… but it’s like smoking… where is the right to choose there? Bottom line, you want to pray, do it on your own time, or go to a private school…
No, I don`t think it was the right thing for the teacher to do, however…I don`t see how it could harm the kids.
Possibly, if their parents are brainwashing satanists or something. What about the irreperable harm that is done to Christian students who are told for twelve MANDATORY years in public education that their faith is so dangerous to everyone else?
No. Maybe some people were offended, but harmed? I don’t think so. And if anyone’s worried about them converting or something (heaven forbid people should ever change religions), most high schoolers are aware of the fact that there is more than one religion out there, and very few people are converted by one or two prayers (although, it is possible – prayer is a powerful thing). The only thing I would like to know… it seems that a lot of people are praying Christian prayers in schools and getting in trouble. Are other religions not praying? Or are they not getting in trouble? I’m not anti-religious choice or anything, I just think that you have to allow them all or disallow them all. You can’t play favorites (or in this case, not-favorites).
ACLU = Big Moronic Jerks who defend evil and wickedness.
If the teacher were to give allegiance to Satan, the ACLU would’ve done NOTHING. “American Civil Liberties Union” Paah, what a big FAT LIE! – It’s more like Union against anything good and upright.
Icebox_Cyclepath basically said everything I wanted to.
As a member of the ACLU and non-religious person, let me say…
NO.
Irreparable harm? What?
As long as the students have the right to refuse to participate, then how could this cause any harm? I joined the ACLU because I wanted to help stop things like drug testing in schools, attacks on our freedom of speech (like illegal wire-tapping), and to support things like gay rights. But I have to say that some of the ACLU’s separation of church and state cases are just flat-out nuts.
-Nick
I can understand why many would not want prayer in public schools. Even looking among Christian denominations, beliefs vary, and with those varying beliefs come varying prayers. Then looking to religions outside Christianity, and I will say it is understandable to me that no child should be forced to pray in public schools. However, I do not agree that “irreparable harm” is done by any stretch of the imagination. This country was founded by those fleeing religious persecution, and as such, it is/should be a place where you are exposed to people of many different beliefs and ideals, and all should be regarded equally from a social stand point. Is prayer in schools wrong? I don’t know the cover-all answer to that, there are some situations where it is more wrong than other situations, but no matter what the situation, unless a teacher is torturing thier students until they confess their belief in Christ, it does not fit under the “irreparable harm” catagory.
What can I say… I still cry about it every night.
I dont see a problem with it. Maybe it’s a little ridiculous that she would do that because not all people that the same beliefs… but you know, people can stand their ground….. Being around a tall person wont make you tall…
No! the aclu is completely worthless.
no.
no way! even if you pray once it doesn’t mean your going to become some kind of super christian in a second.
no not really
But what about the problems generated for Christian students because they see their faith being picked on all the time? Perhaps with the exception of Islam, no other faith is so slandered in public. Methinks that leads into a very good argument for freedom of academic choice – go to a school that supports your views, even if it’s not a public one.
coerced to pray?? What?? I don’t get it. It does no harm…and I know we have to love one another, but right now I am not loving the ACLU…ugh. You do not have to pray…it is a choice. If a teacher is leading an assembly and decides to pray..that is the teacher’s decision…it is not about brain washing….
No, that’s ridiculous!
Dear casevelyn,
Why can’t we play favorites? This is America and our country like it or not was founded on Christian Principles!
You can read it about it here: http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/historicalwritings.php
and here:
http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/historicaldocuments.php
It’s disgusting how we have to be “tolerant” of every religion BUT Christianity, what a bunch of poop dogs!
Have a wonderful day
Nope.
But I suppose if they wanted to get around the legal things, they could say “and now let us repeat what our forefathers said we they began writing our Constitution.” Heck, with that opening, you could have a 3 hr long prayer.
no,bc no one can force the child to believe in what he/she is saying
heck no! kids can choose whether or not to pray. the ACLU is retarded
amanda
Yeah it will just kill the little atheists out there. Don’t they know that the us constitution protects only one faith. The faith of atheism. Can’t they see were the bill of rights say that we have a right to be protected for religion? Ok its not there, but lets just make believe it is and go to court.
from religion
I hate it when I do that
No. If a kid doesn’t believe, has a different religion, or doesn’t want to join in then they can just tune it out. A few high school assemblies I’ve been have had a priest saying a prayer to everyone and those who didn’t want to be involved just kept their heads up and waited for it to be done.
yeah i must agree with No Longer Bound…….. not tht i lived back then but tht makes and interesting point……….. so no, and lets put it this way i dont see how i would be harmed if for some reason a teacher led us in a buddist, or muslim, or jewish prayer how i would be harmed………….. so i dont believe wat they do and maybe i dont agree with the prayer big wop!!!!! no tht whole thing or irreparable harm is crap……..
Yes. The kids are brainwashed. Let the kids decide for themselves if they want to pray. And do it at night before they go to sleep.
Now Dan, I have a question for you: HOW DO YOU MAKE LOVE STAY?
Well?
“Irreparable harm?” No. But I still think that sanctioned prayer in the schools is wrong. There’s a big difference in kids getting together and having their own prayer groups and a school leading them. Those Muslim students are doing their own thing, not led by the school. I don’t send my kids to school to learn how to pray. And I don’t send them to church to learn how to read and right. If the separation of state was good enough for Jesus and Jefferson, it’s good enough for the rest of us. Here’s to the ACLU and I’m giving my money to that side!
Praying in school would not cause irreparable harm, but forcing religion on children at any age by anyone should be a NO NO! Religion does not teach anyone anything! If you want to study myths and fairy tails, do it on your own time, oh wait isn’t there a day once a week they teach you that for free in these buildings called a “church”!
School = logic, mathematics, grammar, science, history
Church = what ever you want to believePeace out bitches J
ohhh my smiley face didn’t show up
J *
People are way too religious these days.
irreparable harm? probably not. but no one forces students to say muslim prayers in school, so why should christian prayers be forced on students?
no harm is done unless the teacher’s intentions are to manipulate the minds of the youth. but that’s kind of what a teachers job is. to help the kids learn… i think a kind of manipulation happens that way.
heck no.
What happened to parents being allowed to raise their kids how they see fit. If your public school was praying to Allah would you think it was doing irreperable harm to your kids, would you expect them to participate. I was raised Catholic and felt incredible pressure from all the Protestants in school around me without having to bring up the religion issue to the forefront. I think for the sake of the minority students religion has to stay out of the schools. By letting teachers promote religion to our kids we are losing control.
Of course individual prayer or student led groups are fine, but the promotion of any particular religion or sect by the school is not.
No, the children have right to opt out of participating in a prayer, they weren’t coerced into it, as to my knowledge. (Perhpas, I’m wrong, perhaps they were threatened with no recess or no pudding, or something nonsensical like that.
Our school has prayer around the flagpole on Wednesday mornings, I don’t participate, but many people do, next the ACLU will be sueing my school for that.
You’re on a slippery slope, ACLU, a slippery slope.
NO, first of all nobody can be coerced into actual prayer. Prayer comes from the heart. Secondly, I really doubt if any of these kids were being forced to do anything. If they didn’t want to pray, then don’t pray, don’t even go through the motions, don’t close your eyes, don’t fold your hands.
On the other hand, I do think it could have been handled more appropriately by the teacher that led the prayer.
Regradless, if anybody does experience some sort of trauma after being at an assembly where people were led in public prayer then obviously prayer isn’t the problem. There would obviously be a much more deep-seated emotional or psychological issue at the heart of such a reaction.
But unfortunately we live in a culture where people don’t want to face up to their own inadequacies. We live in a culture where people need a scapegoat, and too often religion, especially Christianity and Judaism are used as that scapegoat.
I’m sure the ALCU’s willingness to take this on doesn’t surprise anyone. After all this is the organization that will defend a teacher in Colorado who was basically teaching his students that George Bush is worse than Hitler, and attack someone for simply wanting to say a prayer in school.
I would say the ACLU is the one doing irreparable harm. Isn’t it amazing that these people who don’t believe in God, who don’t think He exists, but are also soooooo scared of HIM.
HAHAHAHAHA!! That’s funny. If kids are being “irreparably harmed” by prayer. Well, aren’t we living in a panzy generation.
No. The students can choose not to listen/participate.
What these uber-liberal lawyers, or whoever these silly people are forget is that spirituality is IMPORTANT in life.
I grew up saying the pledge of alliegance. Did it mean I was conscripting my soul to god as per the bible?
No.
Arrogance is the idea that we are the beginning and end of everything.
I KNOW I am not god, so I prayed, just last night.
DIdnt hurt, at all. I may try more soon.
Not unless she was praying a curse on them.
stupid stupid stupid ACLU
no….besides there are worst things occuring in our schools then to be worrying about somone praying>
No one probably listened any way.
Our assemblies were soooo stinkin boring a even a prayer would’ve been interesting.
I like that bumper sticker that says “so long as there are tests, there will be prayer in school”.
The ACLU tends to go overboard on some issues. Here’s a question for them, “Do you protect Christian’s in their rite to exercise their religious belief’s in a public forum? if yes…when? what cases outside of a church function did the ACLU protect a Christian?.” Where was the ACLU after 9/11 when the whole nation was in prayer…and most of that prayer could be viewed as Christian based? Of course they wouldn’t file a lawsuit on that one. hmmm…?
I was always taught that if you didn’t believe what other’s believed, that was ok And if anyone asked why you didn’t pray or get involved…you exercised your rite to respect other’s activities and just had a moment of silence while they exercised their rite.
It is becoming pathetic that we live in a society that is growing so self conscience of what other’s feel about their faiths, that we forget to acknowledge our own. Why should I live in fear of what other people believe? Why should I live in fear of how I express my faith, whether it is in prayer, public or otherwise?
If we all learn to respect these issues accordingly, then when a moment of public prayer happens…it can be respected as an act of acknowledging someone else’s behavior….without telling them that they can’t do it. People have rite’s on both side’s of this issue. You can’t refute one, and praise another…both have to and must be accepted. It appears to some that the Christian’s are encouraging prayer in school…and that can be viewed as forcing one belief’s onto another. If we all lived in another country, and were not mostly a Christian country, then we’d all may be “forced” to pray to Allah (Islam) or Buddha. Just a thought.
History has proven that prayer will happen, even public prayer. And the more that it is stiffled, the more people want and need it.
Another question here: “Why haven’t we learned from history on this subject?”
In any event….end of rant.
Separation of church and state…
(Yowie Zowie- this must be “Middle America’s” Blog)
Hello Red State people!
Eeeek!Heheee…
The ACLU get up in arms about how school should be conducted because it’s the taxpayers who fund those schools. Now, tax-payers have many different beliefs and ideals, and subjective beliefs, whether that be christian, muslim or jewish or any other faiths, don’t have a place in public schools. As subjetcs to be taught, yes, but not as a group session via assembly. If you want to pray, either do it in private or in religious enviroment, but not at school. Otherwise, if you feel left out of the group, then you miss out on the experience.
’nuff said….
I could see how it could cause some younger children who were not raised Christian confusion regarding their religion…It would be the same as if I had your kid do a Wiccan Sabbat ritual in the cafeteria, dig?
this is just hilarious to me, becuz I attended a Catholic boarding school in Africa for high school even though I am Anglican and it was mandatory for us to pray rosary and attend morning mass everyday and we prayed like 5 times a day during morning assembly and afternoon assembly and every morning on our way to mass and at 3 o’clock everyday for angelus…
prayer is no more harmful than Saturday morning cartoons and those radio stations that play the same 4 songs over and over again all day long!!!
Yes.
No it doesn’t harm the children! If I were at a function and a religion other than my own had a public prayer, I would say my own prayer and ignore theirs, without being disrespectful. That is what most of the students will do. Having worked in a rural Missouri high school, I can tell you that the kids probably didn’t think anything of it. My teen now attends that very high school, and they say the pledge everyday, including the word God. All the students participate, and the only grumbling I ever heard was the fact that they had to stand up for it. Why do adults get all bent over issues that the kids could care less about?
No
Since most of the students are probably asleep, I highly doubt it. People need to get a life. And you can quote me on that.
When the world is under attack from terrorism, and some parent is getting riled over a few minutes of prayer, something is incredibly wrong.
I don’t think that students are permanently harmed by prayer in schools, but I do believe the Supreme Court decision on Engel vs. Vitale should be upheld. Which, of course, is the only argument the ACLU has: precedent.
-Guru on the Hill
Nope. I went to Protestant elementary school and didn’t even know what the hymns meant, so it had almost no effect on me. It was probably worse the other way around – I most likely caused irreparable harm to all the eardrums of the people who were forced to listen to me sing.
However… I don’t think students should be forced or coerced to pray. If there’s a prayer session in school and the kids do not follow that particular religion, they should have the option of sitting quietly or leaving for the duration of the service.
Super Piggie,
As long as the kids that you tried to perform this ritual with were given the same freedom that the kids at this assembly were given, the freedom to walk away, then I wouldn’t have a problem with it. Whether kids are raised in a religious or non-religious enviornment, they will be exposed to different beliefs. It’s a disservice to shelter them from that exposure.
idolatrieartist,
I find it interesting that you assume that just because a large amount of people on here see this issue differently than you than they all must be “Red-State People.”
Americans certainly are very strange…
Yes.
Is learning sex ed in public schools irreparable harm?
Lol no… it does not hurt any kid to sit through a prayer. Whether they agree with the religion or the sentiment, they need to learn to be respectful of someone’s religion and their practices.
Now, because it is a public school, and this is America, all religions should be respected and equal. An education should present all the facts, but let the person decide for themselves what they will learn or believe.
Think about this though… whether or not evolution or creation is correct, why is it that they only teach one in public school? Is that irreparable harm? Seems a little one sided to me. And hypocritical.
oh please.
not in the slightest.
we could use more prayer, now more than ever.
the aclu just likes to bitch and whine.
that’s idiotic
Obviously ask them to not do prayers anymore, or at the least permission to leave the room during prayer, but don’t sue them for irreparable damage
people sue over just about anything they can these days
It is not the prayer that is the harm. It is the agenda that comes with those who say they want prayer and then want to ban books for example. People who have never read the Bible yet know they are morally superior because they tell themselves that they are…
I think it’s more of a pride thing than anything else.. people want to be treated equally themselves but they deny others that liberty.. mostly, the kind of people who labeled prayer in school as “irreperable harm” are looking for attention for 1 – being different and 2 – being loud about it.
If you don’t want to pray, you don’t have to just as if someone does want to pray, they can.. Just keep quiet and be respectful. Actually, I think it’s a good practice in school to learn about respecting others.
Can’t be irreparable harm. Don’t you remember those two Fox News reporters who were recently forced at gunpoint to profess their conversion to Islam? The New York TImes said they were released “UNHARMED.”
It was probably inapropriate for a teacher to be leading the prayer because he is in a position of power. I really doubt two prayers are going to change the views of a child forever, but you can never say never.
i think it wud do good to the students
No and this is why I send my kids to private school. The public one is only there ot educate on ther own agenda!
“irreparable harm?” no way. that’s like violating our first ammendment… the freedom of religion. she can lead prayer but it’s her right to do so. the students can believe it in or not.
that’s a no, it usually doesn’t bother the kids, it’s usually their idiots for parents.
Huh???
How would prayer in school cause harm? I could see a few minutes of boredom, maybe, but I can’t see how that would harm anyone. And in Missouri, too, hmmm. I grew up there and didn’t experience that at all, although that was a looooonnnng time ago. So sad.
Stuff like this is blown way out of proportion. If the god damn kids don’t want to pray, then they don’t have to pray, they can just sit there if they want. Theres an amendment against the government banning praying in schools. If a teacher wants to lead a christian prayer in school, I say go for it. The kids in the classroom that aren’t christian or the kids that just don’t want to don’t have to pray with everybody else. It’s that simple.
-KrIsTiN-
I think it can. Am I one of the only people who’s said yes?
Because I was forced to go to church every Sunday of my childhood and now every time I even think there’s no God, I think “Oh man, what if that church was right?” I feel scared of God and guilty. If you start teaching Christian prayers to students who don’t know about the Christian God, they might acutally go the rest of their lives freaking out about it. I mean, God is alawys something to freak out about just because we’ll never know if He’s real or not. I believe he is. But could I have just been brainwashed into that by my Church? Is my church a cult? That I’ll never know.
Good luck looking for your answres.
and thought I said yes, it is NOTHING to sue someone over. What the hell? thats just ridiculous!
depends on how young and impressionable the students were.
alright alright… well I’e thought about it a little bit more and I dont think that the harm is…
“irreparable”
thats just silly. Just… plain…. silly!
Oh, good grief! That’s pathetic. I’ve been subjected to non-Christian prayers, and they did me no harm.
It’s the ACLU that does the irreparable harm.
No.
The children have the right to not participate, don’t they?
Like, we are forced into saying The Pledge of Allegiance anymore.
They could, just not participate.
But it could broaden the childrens minds.
Let them understand a little bit of Christianity.
Oh sure – just like child molestation or such. What trauma! Damage for life!!!
No. In most cases the students don’t pay attention to it anyhow… and if the teacher is leading it, it’s not like they’re forcing the students to pray or say the prayer.
Slowly but surely the human race is becoming more & more fixated on the need to be completely idiotic. So they prayed… tell them not to do it again. I dont’ see how a few words could “damage” a child. I’ll bet $100 that not one of those kids gave a flying rat’s ass. I’ll bet you anoth $50 that they don’t remember any of what was said. I’ll give a final $70 that the parents are being comepletely retarded because they can.
I really do hate stupid people.
perhaps if they were praying for an erect penis with thier pants down kids may be psychologically damaged. I can’t decide if voicing this or having a moment of silence over this is worse. Other than something along those lines, if your child is irreparably harmed because somebody prayed, I think your child probably has other problems beyond the scope of public school systems and/or the Constitution.
Seriously, it is a public school. The last I checked there was a separation of Church and State. If you want your kids to pray in school pay to send them to a private religious based school.
It’s not really irreparable harm. That’s an exaggeration. Harm, yes. Irraparable harm? No. At least not in most cases.
The real problem here is that leading a Christian prayer like that is establishment of religion. That goes against the constitutional rights of the children.
“Irreparable harm” ? Oh my, can you see their poor little ears are bleeding now?!?! How dare he! What a bastard! *rolls eyes* Funny how everyone is always beating up on the christians. Maybe we should be paying more attention to making sure kids are getting to school and learning, hmmm?
absolutely not – imho
Yes indeed
Of course not.
Of course not.
I DON’T BELIEVE IN GOD AND COME FROM A CHRISTIAN FAMILY WHO INSIST ON REMINDING ME OF MY DAMNATION AT EVERY FAMILY GATHERING, AND THAT DOESNT REALLY BOTHER ME.
I ASSUME IN SOME CASES WHERE KIDS ARE PUSSIS IT WOULD, BUT SHOULD WE ALWAYS HAVE TO CATER TO THOSE WHO WILL LOOK FOR ANY EXCUSE TO MAKE ARGUEMENT?
I REALLY DONT CARE TO BE HONEST, YOU DONT LIKE IT, DONT JOIN IN.
Nope, plus the teachers could be planting a seed. You never know!
I don’t think it can cause harm. Really and even from a non-Christian stand point the kids can choose to pray or not, no one can truly make them pray.
there’s a difference between a person praying at school, and a person actually LEADING a prayer. That alienates the other kids who are not Christian. Therefore a teacher should not be doing this, because it sends the message that Christianity is the way to go, that you will get an A in the class if you pray with teacher. It makes it seems as if the teacher plays favorites with those who do and do not pray.
irreparable harm is kind of over-stating this, but I do see it as a problem.
man cannot morally improve himself.
No, who cares. Not I.
No, but it is insensitive to students who are not christian. Teachers are not supposed to lead prayer in schools. That’s separation of church and state.
No…the students may feel uncomfortable (as I would have because I’m not christian) but I don’t think the kid is going to be damaged for life. But then again I don’t think it is right that the teacher did that. You can’t assume that everyone is Christian, and that if they aren’t christian, that its just fine to make them say some of their prayers.
Thats inconsiderate of those who aren’t christian. It does put them in an akward position.
it is insensitive and disrespectful to people of other faiths (couldn’t think of the word at the time)
Heck no
More “irreparable harm” is done by watching MTV, or VH1, or by Xanga and myspace. Geezez
Isn’t it sort of odd how some Christians worship in such a way as to make people hate the mention of Jesus? I think these Christians need to evaluate what they are doing instead of blaming the world of being “Christian haters.” I mean, what would Jesus do?
No, students do not have to participate. I know Chrisitans who act like they pray, and it doesn’t seem to bother them. I know non-christians who act like they pray and it doesn’t bother them. If students do not want to pray, then they don’t have to. I can close my eyes and bow my head but that doesn’t mean I am praying. Prayer is in the heart, not the mind or body. Most children or teens have prayed to something. The ACLU seems to be hindering all the liberties, not helping them. It is sickening they have the audacity to impose on prayer especially in this day and age where one bomb could blow this nation to pieces. I guess the ACLU won’t be praying though.
no. How dumb of a country has the US become if we think prayer will cause “irreparable harm” to someone by praying to God? I hear Muslim prayers all the time, but it doesn’t cause me any trouble. Liberal extremists just want some bull **** excuse to completely flush God out of everything. What’s next… taking “In God We Trust” off of our currency because someone feels uncomfortable!
From two prayers? Probably not. We had prayer in school when I was a kid. I guess the only irreparable damage that it caused me was the urge to say “Amen” after things like the Pledge of Allegiance.
But I don’t think prayer should be in school, either.
kdpickens, “In God We Trust” was not always on currency. I guess you were all godless before you wrote it on your money to prove how pious you were?
No, that prayer is probably the best thing to happen to some of those kids all day.
yes…….I think it’s WRONG for teachers to do prayer in school if that teacher wishes to do that then he/she should be fired or sent to a christian school
No. More like irreperable good. In my view prayer can only do good, even if you don’t believe. Besides which I think that whole coercion argument against prayer in school is kind of lame. If you are not Christian you can always stand respectfully or something. No one is holding a gun to their head or anything.
“Irreparable harm” is what occurs when the ACLU assists in anything.
When I was in school…I prayed ALL the time! I prayed for the bell to ring telling us to get the F*ck out and GO HOME! <33333333Rachel
i believe a group of students who agree with the teacher in an act of prayer is not wrong. thats no diff. than saying i kant go to my skool as a student and lead my friends and maybe even teacher in an agreement in prayer. we all stand for this kountry, why kant we stand for our religion.
How about…NO. No guns were held to the student’s heads, forcing them to pray to a God they don’t believe in. If you don’t want to pray, you don’t have to. I am sick and tired of people who say that they have been caused irreparable harm by an act such as prayer. People need to start realizing what words actually mean. Irreparable harm means that it’s not reparable! Someone who saw horrible things in a warzone might be caused irreparable harm. Someone who lost a loved one in a horrific way(like cancer, heart attack, car accident or murder) might be caused irreparable harm. NOT saying a prayer in school.
OMFG XANGA IS FOR TEENS ONLY TEENS -_- SOO TELL ALL OF THE ADLUTS TO SHUT DOWN AND GO TO MY SPACE -_- -_-
No. Today’s kids are wimps, they need to be able to ‘deal’ with ‘tough’ things like hearing their teacher’s pray… Thank God I’m homeschooled.
OMFG XANGA IS FOR TEENS ONLY TEENS -_- SOO TELL ALL OF THE ADLUTS TO SHUT DOWN AND GO TO MY SPACE -_- -_-
Irreparable damange huh?
Heck no. Wait. I take that back. Americans are way too freaking sensitive about everything. Being offended = “Irreparable harm”
I hope I offend someone…
Not at all. Let me step out on a limb, albiet not a very far stretch, and guess that the Anti Christian Liberation Union will fight to keep one teacher from saying a prayer, saying that is not their free speech rights, but will defend the Ky. school teacher who burned two flags in his classroom last week, because they’ll argue that was his “constitutional right of free speech.”
No. I am not harmed when people of other religions pray. If you don’t believe in the god, then all the person is doing is talking out loud.
Not in the slightest. Then again, it’s not going to cause the teacher irreparable harm when the kids choose not to participate in religious worship.
no way
ooooh my God. Whoops! I mean… Jesus Christ! er. Look, i’ll just say that’s retarted and leave it at that.
No, but it’s still wrong.
Praying in school is disrespectful, but unless it’s done excessively, I don’t see any “irreperable harm” in it.
I’ll have to agree with No_Longer_Bound on this one…
I think we as a country have grown so afriad of “offending” someone who doesn’t believe like we do that we are willing to give up what we believe. ” How will I know what I believe unless I say it?” Is an old and thoughtworthy quaker proverb.
No, prayer does not potentially cause irreparible harm, but it could potentially cause unbreakable good.
no, how is asking God to help our country and help us learn todays lessons irreperable harm? Although I do think theyre right in that the kids shouldnt have been “co-erced” into anything, although Im guessing if they actually cared to check, “coerced” would probably equal asking if they wanted to.
This issue brings to mind many random thoughts which you are all about to be privy to…
Thought #1: Is that harm anymore so than being taught unsubstantiated facts (ie evolution)?
Thought #2: In my opinion, sometimes people are the most defensive & raise havok about things that they are afraid of. ie. the Catholic Church finds no offense in the filth that is portrayed in movies or the offensive use of their God’s name but when “Da Vinci Code” raises sensitive issues about some of the beliefs/members…. pickets, statements, & boycotts commence. (Granted this is the point of picketing and boycotting – raising awareness for what we feel strongly about – but I think you know the point I am trying to make with this thought)
Thought #3: I am a libertarian, and therefore agree with giving everyone equal rights… the problem with most publicised ACLU cases is that its not about equal right, its about special rights. Whether that is the ACLU itself or the liberal media, I know not. DENYING someone’s right to pray in school could be argued as equally repressive/damaging/unfair. I would bet money that if a Muslim wanted to pray during class at one of their many mandated times and was not allowed, he/she would raise hell and be given that right.
Thought #4: Where do you draw the line? I could argue that I should not have to study the holocaust because I do not believe it exists//// or that since I disagree with democracy, I should not have to take my politics test//// or I shouldn’t take geography because I think the earth is flat///or that since I don’t believe in evolution…. oh wait! that was already fought & denied in Dover, PA.
Closing thoughts: The only way to solve this underlying issue of what constitutes fair rights in our school systems is to teach an unpartial and unbiased overview on Judaism, Christianity, Democracy, Russian Socialist System, Wealth, Poverty, Asian Culture, Creation, Evolution, Rupublicans, Green Party, etc. etc. etc.
Definitely not. First of all, calling it ‘harm’ proves how biased that side of the case is because it shows a negative connotation, and secondly unless they can prove that the students were hurt beyond repair in whatever way, they have no evidence.
-Jared
Perfectly expressed… “No. I am not harmed when people of other religions pray. If you don’t believe in the god, then all the person is doing is talking out loud. ”
NO
that’s just hogwash
HECK NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
One final thought… although I typically do not call attention to people such as this, as often attention is their desire which I do not wish to cater to… I must say…
It certainly appears that XGOTH_BOYX is afraid of intelligent thought and/or conversation.
What the heck!!! NO! I think its actually the exact opposite!!!!
~Emily~
No. I was in a public school and my coach used to have us pray all the time. No one thought it bad and we had an athiest on the team!
Oh hell yah. Just the same way that music teachers in NSW Australia are corrupting good little muslim kids with their “offensive music and letting girls and boys dance together.”
yeesh!
No, BUT parents have the right to bring up their children as any religion they want and I do believe that religion has absolutely no place in the public education system.
It certainly appears that XGOTH_BOYX is afraid of intelligent thought and/or conversation.
Posted 8/29/2006 at 2:26 PM by my_daily_diatribe
yes, this is a good place for thought, if you kant handle it YOU KAN GET OUT
Lol.
No.
Um, if you don’t believe it, they’re just words. Thus, “no.”
empirexstate said,
“The real problem here is that leading a Christian prayer like that is establishment of religion.”
Umm, what?? How is a prayer the establishment of religion? It is a religious practice but it is not the establishment of religion. If the kids were forced to stay in the assembly, which they weren’t because if they were we would have heard about it by now from some blowhard in the ACLU, then that would be the establishment of religion.
No, but it’s disrespectful.
no
A not-so-objective “no” from this corner. “Exposing” kiddies to our loving Father and His miraculous ways is not really irreperable harm in my eyes.
If people wanna pray, then I’m cool. They can pray however many times in however many different languages they want to. But if a teacher in a public school is leading the entire school in prayer…the hell? Since when did public prayer and advertising one’s faith like jewelery become so damn huge?
Jesus is rolling in his grave, man.
I think it can be uncomfortable for people who aren’t Christian. I’m Jewish and one of a few Jews in my town so no one ever seems to think anyone is different than they. This past weekend my husband and I were at a picnic where the father of the person having it is a minister so they prayed. I believe in prayer, I believe in thanking G-d but I get uneasy at the end when people end prayers by saying, “in Jesus’ name”. I don’t acknowledge that portion of the prayer. I cease praying at that point, quietly and don’t make a big issue out of it. But then again, I’m an adult, 31, and know th differences and understand respect and maturity. Some in schools these days don’t.
HELL NO
No. I think they might blowing it a bit out of proportion.
No. They don’t have to pray. Prayer can’t be forced.
I have no problem with people praying in school, privately–but leading students in prayer is uncalled for.
That is ridiculous. No one is suffering irrepairable harm because of someone praying in school. Yeah, take the prayers out of schools. What’s next? Forbidding prayer in public places? Only having religious expression in your home?
If it had been a Muslim prayer, no one would have said a thing.
[ariana]
No. A teacher leading prayer…how does that do “irreparable harm”??? That’s a load of you know what. If the kid doesn’t want to pray, then he or she doesn’t have to.
No.
Strong words, but the actions of ones peers in school are extremely powerful in shaping a child. If your whole class started practicing a religion, it could certainly have an effect that could never be undone seeing how the only true way to undo it is wipe the the memory. Sure, you might be able to cover up this moment of pro-Christ influence, but it will always be part of the child.
Yes, it does cause irreparable harm.
I don’t think hearing a few prayers here and there is going to hurt anybody. even in school.
If my kids had to pray, I’m sure they’d be harmed. That’s why I’d tell my kids to let me know if any teacher made them pray or lead them in any kind of prayer. I’d sue her ass so fucking fast she wouldn’t even know what hit her.
Religion does not belong in schools. Not at all unless a student chooses to take a Theology class of some sort but teachers should keep their f-ing beliefs to themselves.
No.
I don’t like it, but it’s certainly not going to kill them. And it’s not like they can really be “forced” to pray themselves.
harmfull….not really
but people shouldn’t be FORCED to pray anything…
in my school…(private…little cedar creek…)
you dont HAVE too unless you WANT to.
I’m a Muslim so if they are praying, I’m silently praying some Islamic prayer. for everyone else…what ever they want…
the prayers are usualy something like this PLEASE GOD MAKE OUR TEAM WIN TONIGHT!!!
Gosh… I’m starting to become happy that I went to Catholic school for 8 years. This is ridiculous.
Sometimes our high school prays, main at commencement or a ceremony. And no one ever complains (except for one of my friends, but she gets over it). As an upperclassman told me last year, because we pray, we’re “cool and old-skool like that”.
no
If they only offer “Christian” prayers and some of the students aren’t Christian, then I would say yes. My daughter, who isn’t Christian, attended public school and was terribly harrassed because she didn’t participate in the “voluntary” meet before school and pray around the flag gig. Christian kids, who like all kids often lack maturity, have the ability to be extremely cruel to those who don’t share their beliefs. For years my daughter was harrassed and called terrible names because she didn’t share their belief. I feel religion should be left completely out of public education.
Unless, of course, all religions were allowed to alternate and offer their own types of prayers or meditation. (Christian, Native American, Muslim, Taoist, Buddhist, Wiccan, Athiests, etc.) Then everyone would be placed on equal footing.
I HATE the ACLU… no… no irreparable harm is done… geez…
If their religion states that they mustn’t hear other religious prayers or else they’re going straight to hell….
but then their religion would have to be the correct one to cause irreparable damage, and so far there’s been no way to prove wich is right.
As G. K. Chesterton pointed out, no argument can be made against religious education that is not also an argument against any kind of education.
So no.
good greif, that’s ridiculous. its not like the teacher was forcing the kids to pray. has anyone at the ACLU ever heard of something called FREEDOM OF RELIGION and FREEDOM OF SPEeCH!?!?!!! the teacher has the constitutional right to pray aloud infront of whomever they want
And just something I want to say…
If everyone gets so mad about Christians showing their religion in public and we don’t care if you recite a prayer of your religion…..why’s everyone picking on Christians? There are the few zealots who try to force the religion onto other people, but that doesn’t mean they should stereotype all Christians as psychotic zealots.
What kind of idiot would say it does “irreparible harm”?! People take PC WAY too far these days.
NO.
“good greif, that’s ridiculous. its not like the teacher was forcing the kids to pray. has anyone at the ACLU ever heard of something called FREEDOM OF RELIGION and FREEDOM OF SPEeCH!?!?!!! the teacher has the constitutional right to pray aloud infront of whomever they want ” Seriously. People here tend to forget that and try to keep their religions concealed.
Guess what everyone? We can all pray aloud. It’s America, not some country that’s so hostile about you being whatever you are that they’ll kill you.
But it sure sounds like America’s turning into one. Now everyone ‘hates Christians’ because they see symbols and prayers of Christianity in public. They can show their own symbols and show their own prayers and not get persecuted-I don’t see why everyone’s being so rash about Christians.
HAHAHAHHA…someday..someone in my school will care and it will get them somewhere….
we pray at-graduation, NHS induction, Spanish Honor Society Induction, the back to school teacher’s bash, our band banquet, and i’m sure lots of other things that I don’t know about. my freshman year, this girl that was unitarian tried to protest it. people pretty much laughed in her face. 3 of the 5 board members for our district go to my church.
that wasn’t really an answer, but it amuses me so much that i thought i’d share.
btw..my school’s public in case you were thinking otherwise.
No!
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO….if they sue a school for a teacher praying….they should sue school for teaching evolution. Some people (like myself) find evolution very offensive and challenging to their faith.
no irreplacable harm is done
but prayer still shouldnt be held in school under any circumstances
HECK NO! THE ACLU IS A JOKE AND NEEDS TO BE SHUT DOWN IN THIS COUNTRY.
Um, no, but it does piss people (like myself) off.
Things like that really shouldn’t be done in class… as long as it isn’t heard (You can pray without talking, can’t you?)
Irreparable? No. Absolutely not. My father is an athiest and my sisters and best friends are pagan. But we all bowed our heads around the dinner table on Christmas and Thanksgiving to humor my christian mother.
There are many things that have done me irreparable harm… but not a few prayers.
You know what really cracks me up about things like this? Where do they think the money for anything they get in this lawsuit is coming from? Seriously… think about that.
No, it’s just obnoxious
No. We’ve gotten so “wimpy” about standing up for what we believe that it is great to see someone take a stand for prayer. I had a fifth grade teacher who insisted on a few minutes of “quiet time” before our lunch so that those who wanted to pray, could. I have always admired her for that.
I’m so old I remember the ten comandments across the chalk board. I remember the phrase “one nation under God”. I remember bible reading in first period. Man I’m old. I remember wooden paddles and the tennis shoe. I remember having to say yes maam and yes sir. Huh, no.
NO!!!
No, There isn’t necessarily harm done, but I don’t agree with doing it. Not everyone follows the same religion, and it isn’t fair to pray to one god, especially if some or a lot of the kids in the class don’t believe in Him.
YES IT IS!!!!!!
No, but it should still be kept out of schools.
No.
Double Standard.
All that needs said.
NO! the aclu is an anti-american, anti-freedom organization, never ever believe anything they say. they want to see the downfall of america.
I don’t think a kid who lives in Oman would decide to live the lifestyle of a Bhuddist if it wasn’t common to the area in which he lives. This country has lots of choices if you shop at Religion-R-Us. Whichever religion that is in a kid’s area is the one he or she is most likely to practice. If you wish to not practice a religion, move to a deserted isle where if a fish prays you can’t understand what it says. If you are going to live in a more populated area, you should come to expect and accept such people who have enough faith to incercede on behalf of your health or another issue. I’ve never had anybody come up to me to tell me my prayer bothers them, but if it did, I would comply with their needs.
no irreparable harm is done….
Isn’t the country based on “In God We Trust”
hmmmm apparently not….
No. I don’t think the teacher should get in trouble either. No one’s saying you have to pray. It’s just led for the people who want to. If you don’t like just ignore it. “Irreparable harm” I think not.
I wouldn’t say irreperable.
Ok… let me understand this straight… The government doesn’t allow prayers in the school, but instead they allow motherfucking pedophiles like Karr to teach without checking the criminal background, ect? I ain’t christian but doesn’t suppose to be allowing all religions and sects in the schools?
No!
absolutely not
No, but it would piss me off because of what the Christains did to my religion back when christianity was first trying to grab the world by the balls.
Murderers…
I don’t know about “irreparable harm,” but it’s unfair to favor one religion over another, of course. It’s okay if a teacher wants to pray, but a teacher shouldn’t exactly tell the class that it’s prayer time and have everyone get down on their knees and put their hands together. But I don’t know if that’s what the teacher did anyway.
god no.. we should be open to all forms.. that it “could lead to harm” isn’t it a bit racial?
i don’t think it causes “irreparable harm,” but i still don’t think prayer should be allowed in public schools where the students don’t all follow the same religion.
“One nation under God”
The ACLU needs to get a real job.
hi wahts up??? aywasy not much toi say check out my sight c/b
No way… and people that get that upset over something like this, which in the big scheme of things is really quite small, it really irritates me. I appreciate the thought, but direct your efforts at something more significant, like the children out there starving. They’re irreparable harm than any kids exposed to prayer in school.
ronlawhouston, you stated my opinion in better words than I could have. thanx.
Hey! Well lets have a few Muslim prayers or Wiccan prayers or Satanic prayers! C’mon…. They don’t hurt anyone! LOL!
In the small town my mother grew up in – they never did have prayer in school. About half the community was Catholic and half Protestant. Of course, no one could agree on who would come up with the prayers! LOL! So they all went to there own CHURCHES to pray! It was voluntary!
What a concept!!! Voluntary prayer of your own choosing! Holy Smokes! Where is the King! Where is the Pope! We have to have someone dictating when we pray, where, for how long… Oh, give it a rest! You can pray any old time you want to!
You can’t force someone to pray. you can’t force someone to have the same beliefs you do. if i listen to a politician i don’t like, i don’t vote for him. if you hear a prayer you don’t like, don’t go to church.
None of your readers seem to be looking at the bigger picture. I’m the worship pastor at a Disciples of Christ Church in Tulsa, Oklahoma…smack dab in the middle of the Bible Belt and right next door to Missouri and I don’t think the teacher should have led prayer at a school assembly. Do I think it caused the students irreparable harm? Of course not. This is the bigger issue: What if the teacher had been Muslim and led a prayer to Ala during the assembly. I’m sure there would have been many students and teachers pretty upset by that. Folks want to blur the line of separation of church and state only when blurring that line favors their particular faith. Separation of church and state is ultimately designed to keep the state from telling me how or how not to worship. I understand that honoring that principle protects my right to lead worship in my church the way I want too. If that means that prayer can’t be led by a teacher in state funded instituion so be it. It doesn’t stop the students from praying if they wish. This is delicate balancing act and I urge people to look at it rationally with their heads, and not just their emotions. Separation of Church and State does not persecute religion…it protects it.
I don’t think it causes harm, but I sure wouldn’t want my kid left out because he/she doesn’t pray. This could cause harm. No child should be forced to pray and the separation of church and state should always take priority.
Of course not. “Leading in prayer” is not “get on your knees and pray NOW!” is it? You can’t force someone to pray if they don’t want to, nor should you try.
this is silly. Of Course not…!
Pizza!
This makes me disapointed with the world.
Yes, it can be irrepairable. It can get really bad: The next thing you know, is that they will ask the students to lead the prayer. The student maty not know how to pray…IRREPAIRABLE HARM CAN HAPPEN, HERE. Nojoke. It happened to me. I still have a problem with leading a group in a Christian prayer, or saying one to God OUT LOUD. Stop it in the bud: NO. There needs to be a division of church and state. When a person uses a church organization to get a handout, computers are now being used to find out the financial statis of the person: whether actually on Social Security, Welfare, or other governmet-run organizations, handling the poor, the disabled, veterans, etc. Large signs warn of fines and imprisonment if there is any fraud associated with the getting of the daily sandwich bag, or monthly box of donated food. It can be a real put-down to be turned away from getting food when one is hungry, without money, and possibly, needing shelter. There are methods of attaining someone who is mentally ill, and in and out of mental institutions, if he or she looks disheveled and is irate because of having been given a “disincentive” to come in to get a service of theirs with their issuance of unnecessarily bad and, impolite treatment, that a comment to a social worker from a hand-out organization may put a person back in an institution, for the newest experiment on anger-mangement. Because of the availability of information to incarcerate the poor, there are very many people unnecessarily housed in mental institutions and prisons. Many people steal or beg another way, than to ask a church organization for help. It is not the place of a church to operate with personally incriminating government-acheived information.
Yes.
“irreparable harm” – no!
I quite frankly don’t care what they say is illegal. I’ll do it anyway. They gonna fine me for praying? So be it. I’ll pay it. And pray some more. If I have to pay for my prayers…then so be it.
Yes, it can be irrepairable. It can get really bad: The next thing you know, is that they will ask the students to lead the prayer. The student maty not know how to pray…IRREPAIRABLE HARM CAN HAPPEN, HERE. Nojoke. It happened to me. I still have a problem with leading a group in a Christian prayer, or saying one to God OUT LOUD. Stop it in the bud: NO. There needs to be a division of church and state. When a person uses a church organization to get a handout, computers are now being used to find out the financial statis of the person: whether actually on Social Security, Welfare, or other governmet-run organizations, handling the poor, the disabled, veterans, etc. Large signs warn of fines and imprisonment if there is any fraud associated with the getting of the daily sandwich bag, or monthly box of donated food. It can be a real put-down to be turned away from getting food when one is hungry, without money, and possibly, needing shelter. There are methods of attaining someone who is mentally ill, and in and out of mental institutions, if he or she looks disheveled and is irate because of having been given a “disincentive” to come in to get a service of theirs with their issuance of unnecessarily bad and, impolite treatment, that a comment to a social worker from a hand-out organization may put a person back in an institution, for the newest experiment on anger-mangement. Because of the availability of information to incarcerate the poor, there are very many people unnecessarily housed in mental institutions and prisons. Many people steal or beg another way, than to ask a church organization for help. It is not the place of a church to operate with personally incriminating government-acheived information.
Do what now?
“It is not the place of a church to operate with personally incriminating government-acheived information.”
It’s the first part of that sentence (seeing as how I don’t understand the second) that gets me…”Its not the place of the church…” I hope you know that the Church will do whateer it pleases, no matter what the government says. The church will follow its beliefs, even if it undergoes separation. If prayer is illegalized in public, I guarantee that you’ll see Christians all over the place praying. They don’t care what the government says, because they know that the government is a man-made authority, with no authority at all over their God.
Just because the teacher led the prayer didn’t mean it was mandatory…it wasn’t forced. I would stand in a muslim prayer…it’s not a forced thing. I stand up when they do the pledge of allegiance. I don’t pledge my allegiance, though. The Reason? My allegiance lies with my God, not with a bunch of sleazy politicians.
No, but it would piss me off because of what the Christains did to my religion back when christianity was first trying to grab the world by the balls.
Murderers…
Too true…but don’t think of “all” the modern christians like that.
I don’t think that a public prayer hurts anyone, because people can choose not to participate, and just sit in silence while the others who wish to participate do. HOWEVER I find it unjust when I must participate in the Pledge of Allegiance in school when I don’t wish to pledge my life and liberty to a country above all else that I don’t even really respect.
I didn’t read qazaq_of_the_clan_of_qaz‘s comment, but I feel exactly the same way about the pledge. My allegiance lies with God, not a government that isn’t even protecting all of my rights. I have no choice but to utter the words, though.. it is enforced.
As a Christian, would you want a Muslim leading YOU in prayer? Even though prayer is a normal, good, an acceptable thing to Christians, it may not be right for non-Christians. Granted, it’s not irreparable harm, but it can make people feel uncomfortable. If you want to pray in school, do what my old school would do. On certain days, they would take a group of students that would WANT to pray for a certain something, take them out to the flagpole, and have them pray there. It wasn’t as though we were ASHAMED of them, but that way, people could pray with other students if they wanted, without having it seem forced upon those who didn’t follow those beliefs.
ACLU going at it in the Bible belt, there’s something I didn’t see coming… :-
your telling these kids whats normal, whats not.
they should make that discision themselves.
how does that muslim, buddist, or atheist kid feel when their school excludes them and leads them in chistian prayer?